[ARCHIVED THREAD] - Caliber Preference (Page 1 of 2)
Posted: 9/25/2010 8:19:01 AM EDT
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And I'm slowly building a shtf arsenal unofficially.
I own a AR15, but I don't think I'd want that as my zombie/mutant containing rifle. (Unless shtf tomorrow, and then I'd have no choice but to use my AR15, Remington 870, and prob my mp45 or Sig pistol. But my planned arsenal would be a FN FAL or HK 91, another 870 made for shtf purposes, and a hi cap pistol like a para 1911 14 round or FNP 45. Purpose of the thread So I've been thinking deeply about does size matter with zombies/mutants? Would a .22 cal rifle work with the living dead? also would a 9mm kill em dead as good as a .45? I mean weight is a major concern, If I'm tired I can't run, If I cant run then I'm dead. Also I'd be able to hold a hell of a lot more .22 over .308 ammo. (same as 9mm vs .45) So my question is... Does the caliber actually matter when it comes to slaying zombies? Or do well placed shots matter? please don't bash me if this has been covered :( or if it's stupid :( I'm new to this |
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Well, I'll give it a try.
If you're concerned about weight, you'll want an AR over a .308 battle rifle.Lighter weapon and ammo,most LEO agencies and military use it so parts/ammo won't be a problem.Although both the FAL and HK 91 rifles are excellent in my experience, keeping one running in a Z Day/SHTF scenario might be problematic;both would be useful as secondary rifles in a bug out location. With traditional zombies, it's about the headshot so I would lean toward 9mm.Rage zombies or infected need a CNS hit or hits to bring down(which is always a good idea anyway) and a bigger caliber could be useful, but the trade off is slower time between multiple targets due to recoil and heavier weapon and ammo.This one is a personal preference. The 22lr question has been done to death,check older posts if you are curious. My personal solution was to use what the LEO's in my area use;Glock 40's and AR's.It's easy to find parts/acessoriesc/ammo locally, but if your local cops carry 6.8 LWRCI rifles and HK 45 pistols this might be a bit impractical or expensive. |
| Not sure I would count on a 22. AR15s are perfect for zomies you can carry more ammo than if you had an AK they are more accurate as well because remember only head shots count. They can be super light weight and 556 ammo is going to be more common than 762. As for 9mm vs 45 either will work. I keep my 1911 with 22 rounds in my bug out bag but I carry my G19 daily so I would have both. 9mm might be more common and easier to scaveng for |
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Quoted:
And I'm slowly building a shtf arsenal unofficially. I own a AR15, but I don't think I'd want that as my zombie/mutant containing rifle. (Unless shtf tomorrow, and then I'd have no choice but to use my AR15, Remington 870, and prob my mp45 or Sig pistol. But my planned arsenal would be a FN FAL or HK 91, another 870 made for shtf purposes, and a hi cap pistol like a para 1911 14 round or FNP 45. Purpose of the thread So I've been thinking deeply about does size matter with zombies/mutants? Would a .22 cal rifle work with the living dead? also would a 9mm kill em dead as good as a .45? I mean weight is a major concern, If I'm tired I can't run, If I cant run then I'm dead. Also I'd be able to hold a hell of a lot more .22 over .308 ammo. (same as 9mm vs .45) So my question is... Does the caliber actually matter when it comes to slaying zombies? Or do well placed shots matter? please don't bash me if this has been covered :( or if it's stupid :( I'm new to this I'm thinking maybe he means .22 cal. as in .223/5.56 since he was talking about his AR. Maybe? |
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I'm normally not a fan of the 9 as a reliable stopper without multiple hits on target, but if all you need to do is make the brain go sploosh the 9 will do it as well as larger calibers. Traditional zeds will be moving slowly enough (one hopes) that head shots will be possible, and faster bullets make that even more likely.
The .223 has plenty enough velocity to disrupt the brain cavity, so you're as well set up with it as anything. Ragers and fast movers, go with larger calibers because headshots become problematic and you need to hit bones or remove large chunks of muscle tissue to knock them down for the coup de grace. Shotgun slugs or big buckshot seems the best way to go here. If they're far enough away to require a .308, they're too far away to bother with unless you're just screwing around for fun. My anti-zed battery is completely different from my anti-personnel battery. .22lr, while you can carry a shit ton of it, is useless unless you load it into a high volume machinegun, in which case you're throwing so many downrange that you've defeated your purpose in carrying light ammunition. In small doses, the tiny little bullet won't disrupt enough tissue to stop a reanimated corpse with no sense of pain. |
| I agree with what was mentioned earlier; stick to popular LEO calibers. Ammo will be readily availible anywhere, and guns like gen 3 glcoks and under can mix and match alot of parts. Something like a 308 would be nice if 308 ammo were cheaper and easier to carry. Save your money, keep your AR well fed and keep good equip on it. I run a aimpoint M3 on mine, had it for almost 2.5 yrs now. Its kept on around medium most of the time (24/7) and I changed the batteries only once. This kind of thing is something to think about in a true SHTF where readily availible supplies would need to outlast many other things. As far as pistol caliber goes, go with anything you can shoot reliably and hit your target under stress. Remember, your pistol should not be your primary weapon, just a backup. |
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And I'm slowly building a shtf arsenal unofficially. I own a AR15, but I don't think I'd want that as my zombie/mutant containing rifle. (Unless shtf tomorrow, and then I'd have no choice but to use my AR15, Remington 870, and prob my mp45 or Sig pistol. But my planned arsenal would be a FN FAL or HK 91, another 870 made for shtf purposes, and a hi cap pistol like a para 1911 14 round or FNP 45. Purpose of the thread So I've been thinking deeply about does size matter with zombies/mutants? Would a .22 cal rifle work with the living dead? also would a 9mm kill em dead as good as a .45? I mean weight is a major concern, If I'm tired I can't run, If I cant run then I'm dead. Also I'd be able to hold a hell of a lot more .22 over .308 ammo. (same as 9mm vs .45) So my question is... Does the caliber actually matter when it comes to slaying zombies? Or do well placed shots matter? please don't bash me if this has been covered :( or if it's stupid :( I'm new to this First off, 'thanks' for bringing this up, it's not 'stupid' in any way. The new guys are who helps take care of the old guys. Type of weapons and quantity of ammo are brought up frequently but still needs to be discussed. You have some great choices in your unofficial arsenal. If you are considering a 22 LR; I strongly suggest you get one if you don't have one. 22LR pistol, too, when the timing is right for you. If you are wanting a 9 milly, by all means get one. Regarding the 22 LR and the 9 mike mike, what brands are you thinking about? If it is a 22LR that you are talking about, it's a great way to keep shooting on the cheap. Another 870 set up for SHTF, up-close work is another great choice. Consider a stock sock and a side saddle for more on-board ammo. That is, if you are interested in that sort of stuff. Your planned arsenal sounds like it will be set up for some heavy hitting. I have to confess, I too, have always wanted an FN FAL, HK 91, and/or an M1a. If I could talk the little old lady into working more hours, that might be a reality for me. I really believe that well placed shots do matter. Get out and shoot when you can. How much ammo do you plan to keep on hand for each weapon? Anyway, welcome to the boards. There are a lot of knowledgeable people here. Ask questions. |
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Well I think it's gonna be a stubborn move (cause I really fixated in my mind that a 9mm has the possibility of being ineffective), but I think I'm looking at the Ruger SR9. I've been hearing good things about that pistol lately. Also a lot of the local LEO carry .45 so that is another thing to consider.
As for the .22lr, I may get an upper for my ar when feasible. Same for an .22lr pistol. I don't really have a plan, but to not stay in the same place. I see to many problems with bunkering down. I kinda wanna have a preplanned out backpack, and head to a preset destination like an off shore island or cabin. And I really don't know how much ammo I should bring, I still have a lot of planning to do. As long as the gun goes bang after being put through hell I'm good. Reliability is the main thing for me. Second would be effectiveness lol. |
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I don't like the philosophy of using a caliber you will 'find ammo for'.
The problem is, if you find more ammo, you will most likely find the gun that it shoots. We're talking about Z-day here afterall. So when the zombies come to kill us people are going to take their gun and leave their ammo behind? Or people who get eaten will have their weapons dissolve but the ammo will remain? Having ammo for your primary is fine, but choosing a caliber so that you can replinish supplies seems silly since you can then just switch weapons. Since where there is ammo, there will definitely be guns. |
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Well I think it's gonna be a stubborn move (cause I really fixated in my mind that a 9mm has the possibility of being ineffective), but I think I'm looking at the Ruger SR9. I've been hearing good things about that pistol lately. Also a lot of the local LEO carry .45 so that is another thing to consider. As for the .22lr, I may get an upper for my ar when feasible. Same for an .22lr pistol. I don't really have a plan, but to not stay in the same place. I see to many problems with bunkering down. I kinda wanna have a preplanned out backpack, and head to a preset destination like an off shore island or cabin. And I really don't know how much ammo I should bring, I still have a lot of planning to do. As long as the gun goes bang after being put through hell I'm good. Reliability is the main thing for me. Second would be effectiveness lol. You don't need to get a whole upper. A conversion kit is just a bolt carrier and mag. My personal belief is .22LR is great when sheltering in a fortified location. While on the move I wouldn't want to trust it to reliable put down a zombie. |
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You also need to keep in mind you probably wouldnt be fighting just zombies. If a group of armed men want what you have I wouldnt think a .22lr would be a good choice for defending yourself. This might also be a reason to forgo the 9mm as well. Yes, I know that legions of you swear by it, but I'm old enough to remember how that all came about and never did jump on that particular bandwagon. Against zeds, 9 is fine. Go against living men, better get something bigger. |
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You also need to keep in mind you probably wouldnt be fighting just zombies. If a group of armed men want what you have I wouldnt think a .22lr would be a good choice for defending yourself. This might also be a reason to forgo the 9mm as well. Yes, I know that legions of you swear by it, but I'm old enough to remember how that all came about and never did jump on that particular bandwagon. Against zeds, 9 is fine. Go against living men, better get something bigger. As far as pistol rounds go, I'm perfectly satisfied with a 9's stopping power vs capacity, especially since it suppresses well. If I think there is any possibility of going up against something shooting back, I'm bringing a rifle. |
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I don't like the philosophy of using a caliber you will 'find ammo for'. The problem is, if you find more ammo, you will most likely find the gun that it shoots. We're talking about Z-day here afterall. So when the zombies come to kill us people are going to take their gun and leave their ammo behind? Or people who get eaten will have their weapons dissolve but the ammo will remain? Having ammo for your primary is fine, but choosing a caliber so that you can replinish supplies seems silly since you can then just switch weapons. Since where there is ammo, there will definitely be guns. i think what they are saying with the "find ammo" is like if they scavenge a wal-mart or basspro shop, they carry .223, 9mm, 45acp, .308, stuff like that, they usually wont carry 6.8, 50beowulf, 7.62x39, 700nitro express, etc but you make a true point that anywhere that also sold the ammo would 99% have a gun there that would shoot it. |
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I don't like the philosophy of using a caliber you will 'find ammo for'. The problem is, if you find more ammo, you will most likely find the gun that it shoots. We're talking about Z-day here afterall. So when the zombies come to kill us people are going to take their gun and leave their ammo behind? Or people who get eaten will have their weapons dissolve but the ammo will remain? Having ammo for your primary is fine, but choosing a caliber so that you can replinish supplies seems silly since you can then just switch weapons. Since where there is ammo, there will definitely be guns. I have spare parts,magazines, and tactical gear set up for my weapons.Why would I want to trash all my preparation and training on those firearms by switching guns everytime I run out of ammo or run across something different?Using calibers/firearms common in your area increases the probability of being able to keep your weapons running in the long run if your preps are insufficient or somehow compromised.In this area AR's and AK/SKS rifles are common,9mm 40 and 45 are popular, and most homes in the smaller towns will have a 30-30,30-06, and/or 12 gauge.Just about anyone should be able to find something that would work for them in that selection of calibers. |
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You also need to keep in mind you probably wouldnt be fighting just zombies. If a group of armed men want what you have I wouldnt think a .22lr would be a good choice for defending yourself. this is very true. same for the 9mm quote. I really want something .308 because that reason. It's a common rounds, and it's got knock down, same as the .45. |
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Well y'all it's as simple as this... I will challange ANY one to end the debate of whether a 5.56 or 9mm is less effective than a 7.62 or .45
We will have a duel. I will use my 5.56 or 9mm, your choice. Because your "odds" of my ammo not killing you in one single head shot is greater, as per your argument, I will get to take first shot. Do I have any takers? |
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.22LR has two things against it. Less than reliable ignition and penetration. If I could stockpile enough I'd go with 5.7x28mm. Otherwise, I'd stick with common rounds, 5.56x45mm and 9x19mm. ludicrous. .22 LR is very reliable, and it is used routinely for killing live stock. It will penetrate a human skull easily. That said, my choice is an AR in 5.56X45, but I would not feel bad if all I had at hand was a Ruger 10/22. |
| Call me crazy, but i got nothing against any caliber, as long as it does its job then it has a home by my side. I have a very broad range of weapons (AR, AK, .45, .308, .22, SKS, 12g, 16g, 9mm). While I may not be carrying a certain caliber, one member of my party perhaps is. You never know who you are going to group up with, or who you can trade with on the run so pick up what ever you can carry if you find something while moving around(I have a special drop bag I can ditch if it gets sticky). Never discredit anything that goes bang on z-day, cause its still better than throwing rocks. If I had to make a choice, I would pick whatever I have the most ammo for at that time. If i had the same amount, I would pick a heavier caliber since zeds dont shoot back, but humans do and Im sure thier best interests are different than mine. If you cant handle the lil extra added weight difference between .223 and 7.62x39(given the choice to choose between them), your not going to the gym enough. |
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You also need to keep in mind you probably wouldnt be fighting just zombies. If a group of armed men want what you have I wouldnt think a .22lr would be a good choice for defending yourself. this is very true. same for the 9mm quote. I really want something .308 because that reason. It's a common rounds, and it's got knock down, same as the .45. for the armed men scnario, 9 mill would do fine, body armor? If I double tap you in the center of mass and you keep coming I'm going to put the 3rd in your face, you'll stop. Same for the AR. I love my .45s. Wearing one right now, I know it'll go bang and the 7rounds are plenty. But zed day my 9mm with 20 rd mags will be worn. |
| I am also a firm believer of using rounds that are common in your area. I love my LWRC M6 in 6.8 SPC, but i would never use it in a SHTF or end of the world situation. People may argue that if you find ammo then you will probably find the gun with it too, but how many different rifles and handguns are you willing to carry. I will stick with 223, 308, 12ga, 9mm, and 40S&W... All of which are commonly used by LE and Military in my state. Plus i have atleast a few thousands rounds for each at home, over 10k rounds in 223. |
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Quoted: Quoted: .22LR has two things against it. Less than reliable ignition and penetration. If I could stockpile enough I'd go with 5.7x28mm. Otherwise, I'd stick with common rounds, 5.56x45mm and 9x19mm. ludicrous. .22 LR is very reliable, and it is used routinely for killing live stock. It will penetrate a human skull easily. That said, my choice is an AR in 5.56X45, but I would not feel bad if all I had at hand was a Ruger 10/22. Rimfire is inherently less reliable than centerfire. I'm not talking about feeding, rather ignition. Just not something I'd want to trust my life to if I had other options. I know it will easily penetrate a skull, if it's not a glancing blow. Even more powerful rounds can have trouble punching through the skull if the angle is off. Not to say I wouldn't use a .22 if I had it, I'd just rather have something else. |
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.22LR has two things against it. Less than reliable ignition and penetration. If I could stockpile enough I'd go with 5.7x28mm. Otherwise, I'd stick with common rounds, 5.56x45mm and 9x19mm. ludicrous. .22 LR is very reliable, and it is used routinely for killing live stock. It will penetrate a human skull easily. 
Livestock that are killed with a .22LR are done at VERY short range with a particular angle. In the REAL world you will have distance (reducing penetration) and not be able to choose the optimal entry angle (i.e. top of the head ). There are many real world examples where such weak rounds as the .22LR, .25ACP, and .32 ACP just managed to penetrare and flew along the edge of the skull (getting no brain penetraion). Many of there were suicide attempts (handgun at near contact distance) and the wounded party managed to call 911 and was awake and alert when the paramedics arrived. |
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Well y'all it's as simple as this... I will challange ANY one to end the debate of whether a 5.56 or 9mm is less effective than a 7.62 or .45 We will have a duel. I will use my 5.56 or 9mm, your choice. Because your "odds" of my ammo not killing you in one single head shot is greater, as per your argument, I will get to take first shot. Do I have any takers? I'm going to have to agree (to the statement, not the duel). This post got me to reread Blackhawk Down and Andy McNab's Immediate Action and Bravo Two Zero.In BHD, a couple of shooting incidents involving a failure to stopwith ranger Nelson's M60 are cited,and McNab's books don't mention the SAS having any stopping concerns with the 5.56.Same with Marcus Luttrell in Lone Survivor.During the recent Iraq war, the Marine Corps had a report issued on 5.56 effectiveness, the conclusion was a good portion of failures to stop were actually failures to hit(anybody else remember that report?). Obviously, a .308 offers some advantages :penetration,down range ballistics, and more damage.But it's disadvantages shouldn't be overlooked:weight,cost, and recoil.If you think recoil isn't a factor with multiple targets,the SCAR H's being used by SOCOM are loaded with a 135gr reduced load in the SBR configuration.The reason cited was to reduce recoil when used in CQB for multiple targets.If SOCOM finds this a concern, what chance do most of the internet warriors/mall ninjas have of performing better? My intent isn't to trash the .308, but there is a reason most of the world's militaries went to smaller calibers.Sometimes bigger isn't always better. |
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We have covered this many times. The key factor will always be weight vs penetration. What caliber will allow you to carry the maximum amount of rounds capable of consistently penetrating the human skull? 9mm in handguns .223 in your rifle Bonus = Large mag capacities in both (18 round mags for 9mm semi-autos are common place now). Bonus = Extremely common calibers that will be easier to scavenge then others It won't get any better than a G17 or P226 with a SBR AR-15. |
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I just got a 9mm Ruger SR9
I haven't shot it yet though. But I love the ergo of it, I just need a holster for it now. I'm still looking for a .45acp Sig pistol. Also I'm about to get another AR15, next ones gonna be a gas middy. And then I may get some novelty guns, and guns just for kicks. |
If it were practical I would carry one of my shooters in 7.62x54 simply because you sometimes need to completely destroy the target or shoot through a large barrier , and another in 5.56 because its such a common caliber and I <3 my AR. As for a handgun, it's .45 all the way 
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| Doesn't matter what caliber you shoot them with. Some may take a double tap, but that ammo may be more plentiful. Now, if you get face-to-face with a Zed version of The Rock, you may need to tap him more than a hot babe in the red-head BOTD forum. All ammo will be effective, some just more than others. |
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I'm going with 7.62x39 as my primary and 9mil as my secondary, I do think shot placement is the most important but you cant argue the fact that one round from an AK could rip through 4-10 zombie spines without stopping maybe even more, leaving them all reeling around on the floor with there brains ready to be stepped on.
I've thought about it a lot and if I had to go into a house or establishment full of zoms I just wouldn't want a 5.56 I just cant see it cutting through crowds of zombies. I would want the power and penetration of 7.62x39 with the second man in the door behind me with a 12 guage semi auto shotgun with a high capacity. And really you guys trust the fortay... I try to stay away from the fortay like I try to stay away from daewoos. |
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I'm going with 7.62x39 as my primary and 9mil as my secondary, I do think shot placement is the most important but you cant argue the fact that one round from an AK could rip through 4-10 zombie spines without stopping maybe even more, leaving them all reeling around on the floor with there brains ready to be stepped on. I've thought about it a lot and if I had to go into a house or establishment full of zoms I just wouldn't want a 5.56 I just cant see it cutting through crowds of zombies. I would want the power and penetration of 7.62x39 with the second man in the door behind me with a 12 guage semi auto shotgun with a high capacity. And really you guys trust the fortay... I try to stay away from the fortay like I try to stay away from daewoos. If the bullet were to travel in a straight line and lose minimal velocity after hitting the first body. Most bullets either yaw or fragment, or do both after hitting tissue.... |
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I'm going with 7.62x39 as my primary and 9mil as my secondary, I do think shot placement is the most important but you cant argue the fact that one round from an AK could rip through 4-10 zombie spines without stopping maybe even more, leaving them all reeling around on the floor with there brains ready to be stepped on. I've thought about it a lot and if I had to go into a house or establishment full of zoms I just wouldn't want a 5.56 I just cant see it cutting through crowds of zombies. I would want the power and penetration of 7.62x39 with the second man in the door behind me with a 12 guage semi auto shotgun with a high capacity. And really you guys trust the fortay... I try to stay away from the fortay like I try to stay away from daewoos. If the bullet were to travel in a straight line and lose minimal velocity after hitting the first body. Most bullets either yaw or fragment, or do both after hitting tissue.... Most 5.56 bullets, but not *Most& bullets, and it's unusual in 7.62x39. However if Reservist used M43 (soft steel core instead of lead) it could conceivable do that as it neither fragments not yaws for quite a bit (thought it will eventually yaw). It's biggest problem is 7.62x39 drops like a rock so the Zeds had better be close to the shooter, and to each other. |
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Even the M43 is going to yaw after about 10-14 inches after contact, not to mention the loss of velocity isn't going to help the *fact* <––Edit: (argument) that its going to continue straight through another couple bodies. So unless you get a perfect perpendicular hit to a soft part of the body, you aren't going to reliably penetrate more than one or two zeds and that's still chancing it. Most 5.56 bullets, but not *Most& bullets, and it's unusual in 7.62x39.
Wrong, most bullets do yaw and it is not unusual for 7.62x39 to yaw. Even big ass ones yaw, its physics in action. Edit: I still haven't even taken into account the fact zeds won't be lined up nuts to butts like ballistics gel and the fact you need a non-angled shot. |
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If you read my original post I'm talking about close quarters, even though I wouldn't be against using the AK outside in the wide open against the zeds.But close quarters say an average home being rushed with an AK47 you would be having bullets penetrate walls, doors, and zoms and much much more, continuing on to do much more destruction before stopping.
Here is a video of a standard AK at 300 meters with iron sights http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4eAm6siQqR0 That being said I'm not opposed to the M16A2, M4 , or AR variant in 5.56 say in an open outdoor environment where the zom or group of zomz you are engaging are at least 100-200 meters out from me. You use what you train with but I can't get away with the performance from the AK |
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Even the M43 is going to yaw after about 10-14 inches after contact, That is enough for at least 2 heads before yawing. And Fackler's testing showed a minium of 28" of penetration (before the bullet left gel. So unless you get a perfect perpendicular hit to a soft part of the body, you aren't going to reliably penetrate more than one or two zeds and that's still chancing it.
Brains are what count, not soft parts. Most 5.56 bullets, but not *Most& bullets, and it's unusual in 7.62x39.
Wrong, most bullets do yaw Incorrect. Most spitzer type bullets will eventually yaw, however hollowpoint (pistol, not OTM), softpoint (expanding), and round noise (most pistol FMJ and many early rifle FMJs) don't yaw. and it is not unusual for 7.62x39 to yaw. Even big ass ones yaw, its physics in action.
You might want to reread that part I highlighted. Note the term 'Fragmentation' is included - damn few 7.62x39 loads fragment. M67 type FMJs (lead core) will yaw early, but it's very unusual to find a load that will fragment in 7.62x39. Edit: I still haven't even taken into account the fact zeds won't be lined up nuts to butts like ballistics gel and the fact you need a non-angled shot. The assumption is they would be, like if they were comming up a stairwell or hallway. Or in a VERY large crowd.
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