[ARCHIVED THREAD] - Church security plan (Page 1 of 2)
Posted: 7/27/2015 8:33:23 PM EDT
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Okay folks, let's see if we can keep this civil and talk sanely about a Church security plan. Just last evening, we had one woman who walked into service and asked for prayer because she was facing 'unnatural spiritual warfare' and felt that someone had cast a spell on her. Then at the close of service two supposed Ukrainian men walked in to inquire about renting the Church for their services (not unheard of, but for supposed Baptist people they didn't know much about Baptist church functions). We're one address removed from a muslim cemetery and have a heavy muslim population in town. So we need to talk security.
Since I am the sound man and the man monitoring the security cameras during service, it's totally up to me to figure out security and communicate a plan. Our problem is that we're an open door Church with two buildings. During service, the kids are downstairs in the main building and in an activities building (they may also be outside). They come and go in and out of the doors, so keeping them locked is not feasible. So here's the start of a plan: 1) Surprisingly, the pastor is up for the leardership being armed. The Deacons are putting together a policy to abide with the law of GA. Once that's in place, I will have a SIG P229 with an extra mag with me. I'm also thinking about keeping my AR15 in the vehicle that's close to the main building's door where I am. The idea is NEVER to let anyone with a gun into the building, that means I have to either lock the door before they get in (if possible) or go out and engage them while others lock the door behind me. Presuming they will have brought more gun than I have, my battle plan would be to try a preemptive shot while fighting to my vehicle to get my AR. I don't think the pastor would be cool with me open carrying an AR15 inside the church. This is not internet badazz stuff, it's an honest recognition that in the unlikely event something bad went down, I'm probably going to die--but hopefully will live long enough to let someone behind me lock the door and save everyone else. If they get in the door, we've lost. 2) I bought commercial walkie talkies to be used by myself and the people who are downstairs. The adults downstairs with the kids are blind to what's going on upstairs. My cameras don't cover every angle of the property, so they need the ability to communicate with me. In the event I see someone come into the parking lot and pull out a rifle/gun, I announce something like "code red, code red, code red" to ensure everyone with a walkie talkie knows something bad is wrong. The problem is that there's too many 'what if's' to cover. The general idea is to get everyone inside, away from doors and windows and get the doors locked (while SOMEONE is calling 911). Again, I would be the sole person armed so it would be up to me to stop or intercede as long as I could to save lives. What am I missing? I'm sure someone will have some ideas. |
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1. check out sheep dog seminars for churches
2. when i was on security detail we had a four to 5 man team. two in the lobby and would do walk arounds the building and worship center and parking lot. one was observing who was coming and going. always have someone and the best trained where the kids are, ALWAYS. 3. it is stupid to have one person armed and only one. the teams need to be armed and ready and trained. |
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Quoted:
1. check out sheep dog seminars for churches 2. when i was on security detail we had a four to 5 man team. two in the lobby and would do walk arounds the building and worship center and parking lot. one was observing who was coming and going. always have someone and the best trained where the kids are, ALWAYS. 3. it is stupid to have one person armed and only one. the teams need to be armed and ready and trained. Sheep dog seminars? Not familiar, what are those? It may be stupid, but were a smallish church of about 100 - 125 on a good Sunday and it's possible that others might end up being armed. Right now, I am the only person with a license to carry. I'll push to have more join in, but I might be the only option available. One person armed beats none but is better than none. While I don't want to sound elitist but I don't necessarily want one member on one side killing another member in crossfire. So right now we are restricting it to leadership. Step 3 might be to have assigned tasks for each person should the "Code red" be called. Everyone with a task to do, the problem is that people are so spotty in attendance, it is hard to find people to assign tasks to that you can count on to be there every service. |
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Funny, I am in the same position. Sound and monitor the cameras and movement in the building. I have an alarm (very quiet in the office right behind me) that lets me know if someone enters the main door so I can check the camera that's on it.
Without going into detail there are armed people in the building. We had these guys come in if it's something you are interested in. If I recall there were 5 church's involved in the classes Church Security ETA: Not sure where you are located but check their course schedule on the we site. May be something near you. |
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Sheep dog seminars? Not familiar, what are those? It may be stupid, but were a smallish church of about 100 - 125 on a good Sunday and it's possible that others might end up being armed. Right now, I am the only person with a license to carry. I'll push to have more join in, but I might be the only option available. One person armed beats none but is better than none. While I don't want to sound elitist but I don't necessarily want one member on one side killing another member in crossfire. So right now we are restricting it to leadership. Step 3 might be to have assigned tasks for each person should the "Code red" be called. Everyone with a task to do, the problem is that people are so spotty in attendance, it is hard to find people to assign tasks to that you can count on to be there every service. Quoted:
Quoted:
1. check out sheep dog seminars for churches 2. when i was on security detail we had a four to 5 man team. two in the lobby and would do walk arounds the building and worship center and parking lot. one was observing who was coming and going. always have someone and the best trained where the kids are, ALWAYS. 3. it is stupid to have one person armed and only one. the teams need to be armed and ready and trained. Sheep dog seminars? Not familiar, what are those? It may be stupid, but were a smallish church of about 100 - 125 on a good Sunday and it's possible that others might end up being armed. Right now, I am the only person with a license to carry. I'll push to have more join in, but I might be the only option available. One person armed beats none but is better than none. While I don't want to sound elitist but I don't necessarily want one member on one side killing another member in crossfire. So right now we are restricting it to leadership. Step 3 might be to have assigned tasks for each person should the "Code red" be called. Everyone with a task to do, the problem is that people are so spotty in attendance, it is hard to find people to assign tasks to that you can count on to be there every service. i think dave grossman founded it https://www.facebook.com/sheepdogseminarsforchurches we had reflective things we wore on our belts if a shooting occured we deployed it so we could id each other. |
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There are a lot of guns in my church. We even have a firearms instructor slash deputy sheriff in the sound booth that is in the back and 10 feet up. The parking lot guys and the security team all wear earpieces with their walkies so S to not distract. We also have a local police car parked o. The side of the street with lights flashing. The rent a cop stays with the kids between two buildings. |
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Talk to your insurance company. Ours was very helpful in giving us directions on putting together a comprehensive emergency plan. I thought about that, but my fear (given the change in the GA law) would be that they would preempt us from allowing Church carry. I'm trying to put something reasonable into play quickly with the least disruption, you know how Churches are sometimes--the more effort required, the less support you get. |
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Quoted: Okay folks, let's see if we can keep this civil and talk sanely about a Church security plan. Just last evening, we had one woman who walked into service and asked for prayer because she was facing 'unnatural spiritual warfare' and felt that someone had cast a spell on her. Then at the close of service two supposed Ukrainian men walked in to inquire about renting the Church for their services (not unheard of, but for supposed Baptist people they didn't know much about Baptist church functions). We're one address removed from a muslim cemetery and have a heavy muslim population in town. So we need to talk security. Since I am the sound man and the man monitoring the security cameras during service, it's totally up to me to figure out security and communicate a plan. Our problem is that we're an open door Church with two buildings. During service, the kids are downstairs in the main building and in an activities building (they may also be outside). They come and go in and out of the doors, so keeping them locked is not feasible. So here's the start of a plan: 1) Surprisingly, the pastor is up for the leardership being armed. The Deacons are putting together a policy to abide with the law of GA. Once that's in place, I will have a SIG P229 with an extra mag with me. I'm also thinking about keeping my AR15 in the vehicle that's close to the main building's door where I am. The idea is NEVER to let anyone with a gun into the building, that means I have to either lock the door before they get in (if possible) or go out and engage them while others lock the door behind me. Presuming they will have brought more gun than I have, my battle plan would be to try a preemptive shot while fighting to my vehicle to get my AR. I don't think the pastor would be cool with me open carrying an AR15 inside the church. This is not internet badazz stuff, it's an honest recognition that in the unlikely event something bad went down, I'm probably going to die--but hopefully will live long enough to let someone behind me lock the door and save everyone else. If they get in the door, we've lost. 2) I bought commercial walkie talkies to be used by myself and the people who are downstairs. The adults downstairs with the kids are blind to what's going on upstairs. My cameras don't cover every angle of the property, so they need the ability to communicate with me. In the event I see someone come into the parking lot and pull out a rifle/gun, I announce something like "code red, code red, code red" to ensure everyone with a walkie talkie knows something bad is wrong. The problem is that there's too many 'what if's' to cover. The general idea is to get everyone inside, away from doors and windows and get the doors locked (while SOMEONE is calling 911). Again, I would be the sole person armed so it would be up to me to stop or intercede as long as I could to save lives. What am I missing? I'm sure someone will have some ideas. I used to work the sound board at my church and I kept a Draco in the booth with me. Pastor wanted one for his office at one time. Might not be a bad idea for a AR15 pistol. |
| p.s. I HATE the sound board. Being in the back, I am the sound board guy, direction giving guy, finder of anything that someone needs, child monitor, babysitter, security man, plumber, etc. So I really don't get a service.....but I know that should something happen I am motivated to do what I can. |
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See if you guys can put up a CCW welcome and encouraged sign.
Not a glaring in your face sign, but post all entrances that CCW is welcome, and appreciated. Gray print is best for not attracting attention to those that don't care, but if you're thinking about doing something, or worried about breaking a law by carrying somewhere, you look for those signs. |
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Quoted:
I used to work the sound board at my church and I kept a Draco in the booth with me. Pastor wanted one for his office at one time. Might not be a bad idea for a AR15 pistol. Quoted:
Quoted:
Okay folks, let's see if we can keep this civil and talk sanely about a Church security plan. Just last evening, we had one woman who walked into service and asked for prayer because she was facing 'unnatural spiritual warfare' and felt that someone had cast a spell on her. Then at the close of service two supposed Ukrainian men walked in to inquire about renting the Church for their services (not unheard of, but for supposed Baptist people they didn't know much about Baptist church functions). We're one address removed from a muslim cemetery and have a heavy muslim population in town. So we need to talk security. Since I am the sound man and the man monitoring the security cameras during service, it's totally up to me to figure out security and communicate a plan. Our problem is that we're an open door Church with two buildings. During service, the kids are downstairs in the main building and in an activities building (they may also be outside). They come and go in and out of the doors, so keeping them locked is not feasible. So here's the start of a plan: 1) Surprisingly, the pastor is up for the leardership being armed. The Deacons are putting together a policy to abide with the law of GA. Once that's in place, I will have a SIG P229 with an extra mag with me. I'm also thinking about keeping my AR15 in the vehicle that's close to the main building's door where I am. The idea is NEVER to let anyone with a gun into the building, that means I have to either lock the door before they get in (if possible) or go out and engage them while others lock the door behind me. Presuming they will have brought more gun than I have, my battle plan would be to try a preemptive shot while fighting to my vehicle to get my AR. I don't think the pastor would be cool with me open carrying an AR15 inside the church. This is not internet badazz stuff, it's an honest recognition that in the unlikely event something bad went down, I'm probably going to die--but hopefully will live long enough to let someone behind me lock the door and save everyone else. If they get in the door, we've lost. 2) I bought commercial walkie talkies to be used by myself and the people who are downstairs. The adults downstairs with the kids are blind to what's going on upstairs. My cameras don't cover every angle of the property, so they need the ability to communicate with me. In the event I see someone come into the parking lot and pull out a rifle/gun, I announce something like "code red, code red, code red" to ensure everyone with a walkie talkie knows something bad is wrong. The problem is that there's too many 'what if's' to cover. The general idea is to get everyone inside, away from doors and windows and get the doors locked (while SOMEONE is calling 911). Again, I would be the sole person armed so it would be up to me to stop or intercede as long as I could to save lives. What am I missing? I'm sure someone will have some ideas. I used to work the sound board at my church and I kept a Draco in the booth with me. Pastor wanted one for his office at one time. Might not be a bad idea for a AR15 pistol. I think I really need something a bit more concealed and portable. But it would be GREAT to have the carpenters of the Church build me a hidden compartment of some sort where I could put my AR15. 
I'm treading lightly because--despite the concept that the conversation we're having is only topical if the very worst case happens--there are still some anti's who would be victims. Should the worst happen, I might just shoot them first for spite!
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While I don't want to sound elitist but I don't necessarily want one member on one side killing another member in crossfire. So right now we are restricting it to leadership. . Well that's one way to ensure people capable and interested in protecting themselves will church members. 
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This thread is relevant to my interest.
Our church is very small, maybe 30-40 people in service every week, and that includes the choir and the pulpit (we dont have cameras, or even a sound guy, or even a sound board). I am armed, but have not met everyone to know if anyone else is. I think I have felt out one other, but we are still reletively new to this church. For now, I am just sitting in tactical advantageous area, and keeping my eyes peeled. We can see the main road and entrance to the driveway, but the actual entrance is behind us. |
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Right now, I am the only person with a license to carry. You need to be licensed to carry at your place of business in Georgia? Here in California you don't need a license or permit for lawful concealed carry at your place of business. A $1 a year salary makes you an employee. I make the abbot write me a check every year.
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Quoted:
Well that's one way to ensure people capable and interested in protecting themselves will church members.
Quoted:
Quoted:
While I don't want to sound elitist but I don't necessarily want one member on one side killing another member in crossfire. So right now we are restricting it to leadership. . Well that's one way to ensure people capable and interested in protecting themselves will church members.
Well it's an honest assessment. Not everyone in a congregation should be carrying guns, that's a reasonable assessment. Again, if someone with a gun or knife makes it into a congregation meeting and we have people shooting at them from any point in the church..other members are in the crossfire. And I don't think that an honest assessment says that a vote to allow free reign carry by all members will pass. I know it sounds selfish but right now I am worried about myself--given that I am the first person to encounter bad news should it come calling. |
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You need to be licensed to carry at your place of business in Georgia? Here in California you don't need a license or permit for lawful concealed carry at your place of business. A $1 a year salary makes you an employee. I make the abbot write me a check every year. Quoted:
Right now, I am the only person with a license to carry. You need to be licensed to carry at your place of business in Georgia? Here in California you don't need a license or permit for lawful concealed carry at your place of business. A $1 a year salary makes you an employee. I make the abbot write me a check every year. In Georgia they just passed a new law that ALLOWS Church carry but it has to be voted in by the leadership of the Church. The Deacons are all in agreement that we want the Deacons to be armed (if we vote it in, others will likely renew their licenses). It's a sticky wicket in that if we push for too much too fast, the vote may fail and I'm out of luck. I'm thinking we take the liberal plan and take a mile, once given an inch. Let leadership/security carry first and then expand it at some point once those squeamish about carry get used to the idea. |
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Again, if someone with a gun or knife makes it into a congregation meeting and we have people shooting at them from any point in the church..other members are in the crossfire. It's a risk (and based on the history of armed encounters by concealed carriers in crowded places, a very slight one that is often over hyped by hysterical antis) which can be mitigated with proper planning and security. If someone dangerous gets to the point every day church goers are forced to shoot back, your security plan has already failed.....badly. Either way, it's your church. My honest assessment is I wouldn't attend a church that didn't allow me to defend myself. |
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Interesting subject. I got a call at home from my pastor a few months ago and he came right out and asked me if I was packing in church. I thought I was going to be asked not to,but instead he told me he was and wanted to make sure there were at least three of us at all times.
I was most relieved and feel more secure than I did before. |
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While I don't want to sound elitist but I don't necessarily want one member on one side killing another member in crossfire. So right now we are restricting it to leadership.  Come on man, you've got to be kidding me. What sort of special training do you have that someone else couldn't also get? What happens when you're sick and not at church? What about when it's ladies prayer night and the sound guy, pastor, and deacons don't have to be there? What if I visit your church? Do I have to leave my 9mm and 34 rounds of ammo in the car?
Now that we've gotten that out of the way, what about a wired intercom to the downstairs area? Probably more effective than a walkie talkie, don't have to keep batteries charged, don't have to worry about someone turning it off, and you know for sure it'll sound off where the people who need to take action are. When the alarm does go off, multiple people need to know the plan. (lock the doors) Don't rely on just Mike and Sarah running around closing doors. They might freeze up, or not be around. Everyone needs to know the plan. |
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It's a risk (and based on the history of armed encounters by concealed carriers in crowded places, a very slight one that is often over hyped by hysterical antis) which can be mitigated with proper planning and security. If someone dangerous gets to the point every day church goers are forced to shoot back, your security plan has already failed.....badly. Either way, it's your church. My honest assessment is I wouldn't attend a church that didn't allow me to defend myself. Quoted:
Quoted:
Again, if someone with a gun or knife makes it into a congregation meeting and we have people shooting at them from any point in the church..other members are in the crossfire. It's a risk (and based on the history of armed encounters by concealed carriers in crowded places, a very slight one that is often over hyped by hysterical antis) which can be mitigated with proper planning and security. If someone dangerous gets to the point every day church goers are forced to shoot back, your security plan has already failed.....badly. Either way, it's your church. My honest assessment is I wouldn't attend a church that didn't allow me to defend myself. I agree....fortunately many of these shooters come in guns blazing and can maybe be stopped. So here's a scenario. Church is winding down and the invitation is being given (for the nonchurched that's where people come to the front to pray). Someone we don't know (just like happened last night with the unnatural spiritual warfare lady) gets up and walks 1/2 way down the middle aisle. He/she whips out a concealed gun and begins firing. Given that our church has a middle aisle, worshipper Ned on the left side whips out his gun as does worshipper Dave on the right side. The gunman/woman is firing from the middle, Ned from the left and Dave from the right. Ned and Dave may be complete newby's and end up shooting more people than the shooter. Not everyone who has a gun and/or license has the training to react appropriately. I can say with certainty that we will never get a vote through for everyone to be armed. I think we can get the leadership carry to provide SOME coverage. |
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Quoted: i think dave grossman founded it https://www.facebook.com/sheepdogseminarsforchurches we had reflective things we wore on our belts if a shooting occured we deployed it so we could id each other. Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: 1. check out sheep dog seminars for churches 2. when i was on security detail we had a four to 5 man team. two in the lobby and would do walk arounds the building and worship center and parking lot. one was observing who was coming and going. always have someone and the best trained where the kids are, ALWAYS. 3. it is stupid to have one person armed and only one. the teams need to be armed and ready and trained. Sheep dog seminars? Not familiar, what are those? It may be stupid, but were a smallish church of about 100 - 125 on a good Sunday and it's possible that others might end up being armed. Right now, I am the only person with a license to carry. I'll push to have more join in, but I might be the only option available. One person armed beats none but is better than none. While I don't want to sound elitist but I don't necessarily want one member on one side killing another member in crossfire. So right now we are restricting it to leadership. Step 3 might be to have assigned tasks for each person should the "Code red" be called. Everyone with a task to do, the problem is that people are so spotty in attendance, it is hard to find people to assign tasks to that you can count on to be there every service. i think dave grossman founded it https://www.facebook.com/sheepdogseminarsforchurches we had reflective things we wore on our belts if a shooting occured we deployed it so we could id each other. A lot of work has been put in since I started the team at New Life Church. Grossman is doing great work. Also my friend Carl Chinn. Check out carlchinn.com and read Carl's book, Evil Invades Sancutary. It is a good read, and the now definitive account of the shooting and its aftermath. Carl teaches and complies stats on chruch violence. |
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So here's a scenario. Church is winding down and the invitation is being given (for the nonchurched that's where people come to the front to pray). Someone we don't know (just like happened last night with the unnatural spiritual warfare lady) gets up and walks 1/2 way down the middle aisle. He/she whips out a concealed gun and begins firing. Given that our church has a middle aisle, worshipper Ned on the left side whips out his gun as does worshipper Dave on the right side. The gunman/woman is firing from the middle, Ned from the left and Dave from the right. Ned and Dave may be complete newby's and end up shooting more people than the shooter. Not everyone who has a gun and/or license has the training to react appropriately. I can say with certainty that we will never get a vote through for everyone to be armed. I think we can get the leadership carry to provide SOME coverage. I understand your legal difficulties, but step one in convincing people to allow normal folks to be armed is probably not repeat the same hypothetical bullshit I heard from every anti when we tried to pass campus carry here this year. For that matter, it's the same argument they used when we passed church carry, and concealed carry in the first place.... Hypotheticals suck. The reality has been that in many, many places where concealed carriers have been in crowded places when they had to confront a bad guy, they didn't shoot anyone but the bad guy, much less have two carriers start blasting and hit each other. It's anti gunner drivel, to put it politely. |
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Come on man, you've got to be kidding me. What sort of special training do you have that someone else couldn't also get? What happens when you're sick and not at church? What about when it's ladies prayer night and the sound guy, pastor, and deacons don't have to be there? What if I visit your church? Do I have to leave my 9mm and 34 rounds of ammo in the car?
Now that we've gotten that out of the way, what about a wired intercom to the downstairs area? Probably more effective than a walkie talkie, don't have to keep batteries charged, don't have to worry about someone turning it off, and you know for sure it'll sound off where the people who need to take action are. When the alarm does go off, multiple people need to know the plan. (lock the doors) Don't rely on just Mike and Sarah running around closing doors. They might freeze up, or not be around. Everyone needs to know the plan. Quoted:
Quoted:
While I don't want to sound elitist but I don't necessarily want one member on one side killing another member in crossfire. So right now we are restricting it to leadership. Come on man, you've got to be kidding me. What sort of special training do you have that someone else couldn't also get? What happens when you're sick and not at church? What about when it's ladies prayer night and the sound guy, pastor, and deacons don't have to be there? What if I visit your church? Do I have to leave my 9mm and 34 rounds of ammo in the car?
Now that we've gotten that out of the way, what about a wired intercom to the downstairs area? Probably more effective than a walkie talkie, don't have to keep batteries charged, don't have to worry about someone turning it off, and you know for sure it'll sound off where the people who need to take action are. When the alarm does go off, multiple people need to know the plan. (lock the doors) Don't rely on just Mike and Sarah running around closing doors. They might freeze up, or not be around. Everyone needs to know the plan. Well we're just not going to get a vote through for everyone, it's as simple as that. GA law requires the church to have an official written policy and for us that means an open conference vote where a couple naysayers can put a stop to it. I'm all for everyone who has a CCW to carry, I just don't think we will get that through a vote cleanly. As for your question, if I found you carrying against the policy I'd write you a ticket requiring you to go shooting with me sometime.
I'm going to really push the other deacons to be armed at all times with me (that would put at least 5 armed people in every service). Since we have the keys and the security system code, we're always around if there's any function going on. |
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I agree....fortunately many of these shooters come in guns blazing and can maybe be stopped. So here's a scenario. Church is winding down and the invitation is being given (for the nonchurched that's where people come to the front to pray). Someone we don't know (just like happened last night with the unnatural spiritual warfare lady) gets up and walks 1/2 way down the middle aisle. He/she whips out a concealed gun and begins firing. Given that our church has a middle aisle, worshipper Ned on the left side whips out his gun as does worshipper Dave on the right side. The gunman/woman is firing from the middle, Ned from the left and Dave from the right. Ned and Dave may be complete newby's and end up shooting more people than the shooter. Not everyone who has a gun and/or license has the training to react appropriately. I can say with certainty that we will never get a vote through for everyone to be armed. I think we can get the leadership carry to provide SOME coverage. Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Again, if someone with a gun or knife makes it into a congregation meeting and we have people shooting at them from any point in the church..other members are in the crossfire. It's a risk (and based on the history of armed encounters by concealed carriers in crowded places, a very slight one that is often over hyped by hysterical antis) which can be mitigated with proper planning and security. If someone dangerous gets to the point every day church goers are forced to shoot back, your security plan has already failed.....badly. Either way, it's your church. My honest assessment is I wouldn't attend a church that didn't allow me to defend myself. I agree....fortunately many of these shooters come in guns blazing and can maybe be stopped. So here's a scenario. Church is winding down and the invitation is being given (for the nonchurched that's where people come to the front to pray). Someone we don't know (just like happened last night with the unnatural spiritual warfare lady) gets up and walks 1/2 way down the middle aisle. He/she whips out a concealed gun and begins firing. Given that our church has a middle aisle, worshipper Ned on the left side whips out his gun as does worshipper Dave on the right side. The gunman/woman is firing from the middle, Ned from the left and Dave from the right. Ned and Dave may be complete newby's and end up shooting more people than the shooter. Not everyone who has a gun and/or license has the training to react appropriately. I can say with certainty that we will never get a vote through for everyone to be armed. I think we can get the leadership carry to provide SOME coverage. No offense, but that is complete liberal logic against CCW for civilians. Apply the same logic you just did to your church to the grocery store. The point of CCW is no one knows, and the vast majority of people who carry regularly have undertaken some sort of training to determine if/when to draw, and if/when to engage. As well as threat assessment. Just because someone has a gun and they're shooting, especially in an active shooter scenario, doesn't make them a threat. ETA: missed your prior posts about GA and church carry laws. Smack your leadership in the face with facts, and let them know how a soft target is an easy target. Allowing membership to carry, and posting that it's allowed will pretty much knock you off the target list statistically speaking. |
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I understand your legal difficulties, but step one in convincing people to allow normal folks to be armed is probably not repeat the same hypothetical bullshit I heard from every anti when we tried to pass campus carry here this year. For that matter, it's the same argument they used when we passed church carry, and concealed carry in the first place.... Hypotheticals suck. The reality has been that in many, many places where concealed carriers have been in crowded places when they had to confront a bad guy, they didn't shoot anyone but the bad guy, much less have two carriers start blasting and hit each other. It's anti gunner drivel, to put it politely. Quoted:
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So here's a scenario. Church is winding down and the invitation is being given (for the nonchurched that's where people come to the front to pray). Someone we don't know (just like happened last night with the unnatural spiritual warfare lady) gets up and walks 1/2 way down the middle aisle. He/she whips out a concealed gun and begins firing. Given that our church has a middle aisle, worshipper Ned on the left side whips out his gun as does worshipper Dave on the right side. The gunman/woman is firing from the middle, Ned from the left and Dave from the right. Ned and Dave may be complete newby's and end up shooting more people than the shooter. Not everyone who has a gun and/or license has the training to react appropriately. I can say with certainty that we will never get a vote through for everyone to be armed. I think we can get the leadership carry to provide SOME coverage. I understand your legal difficulties, but step one in convincing people to allow normal folks to be armed is probably not repeat the same hypothetical bullshit I heard from every anti when we tried to pass campus carry here this year. For that matter, it's the same argument they used when we passed church carry, and concealed carry in the first place.... Hypotheticals suck. The reality has been that in many, many places where concealed carriers have been in crowded places when they had to confront a bad guy, they didn't shoot anyone but the bad guy, much less have two carriers start blasting and hit each other. It's anti gunner drivel, to put it politely. Well generally I would line up with you to agree on the antigun drivel part. However, I am looking at a logistical reasonableness assessment of the situation. If I'm sitting on the right side shooting at someone in the center aisle...everyone on the left side is a potential crossfire recipient. That's not some biased facts-to-fit-the argument thing, it's just logistics. I'm not specially trained but I shoot a lot and have my CCW. I will take a CCW course if we get this vote through, probably will be required to for insurance purposes. Not to mention I am the security person. So by default that puts me closer to harm's way should it come our way. I've agreed that it may require me to go walk towards danger to save the life of my children or other worshipers. |
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A Security Plan isn't about planning to prevail in a gunfight inside a church. Try to find someone nearby who has developed facility Security Plans before. They will help keep it from becoming a waste of time and something to pin false hopes to. Exactly. Said in the original post the idea is to lock them out (1st choice) and hunker down and NOT engage in a gunfight inside. However, that might not be possible for various reasons: 1) They whip out a concealed pistol or knife mid-service (therefore they are already inside) 2) They drive up and go immediately to the children's building or start shooting children on the playground 3) They approach from a camera angle that isn't covered 4) I am distracted and just don't see them approach 5) There are multiple assailants who split up In any of those scenarios, it would be incumbent on me to go try to stop it or slow them down. It may be a losing proposition for me but may allow the rest to hunker down and survive....if it allows my kids to live, that's a win in my book. |
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Okay folks, let's see if we can keep this civil and talk sanely about a Church security plan. Just last evening, we had one woman who walked into service and asked for prayer because she was facing 'unnatural spiritual warfare' and felt that someone had cast a spell on her. Then at the close of service two supposed Ukrainian men walked in to inquire about renting the Church for their services (not unheard of, but for supposed Baptist people they didn't know much about Baptist church functions). We're one address removed from a muslim cemetery and have a heavy muslim population in town. So we need to talk security. Since I am the sound man and the man monitoring the security cameras during service, it's totally up to me to figure out security and communicate a plan. Our problem is that we're an open door Church with two buildings. During service, the kids are downstairs in the main building and in an activities building (they may also be outside). They come and go in and out of the doors, so keeping them locked is not feasible. So here's the start of a plan: 1) Surprisingly, the pastor is up for the leardership being armed. The Deacons are putting together a policy to abide with the law of GA. Once that's in place, I will have a SIG P229 with an extra mag with me. I'm also thinking about keeping my AR15 in the vehicle that's close to the main building's door where I am. The idea is NEVER to let anyone with a gun into the building, that means I have to either lock the door before they get in (if possible) or go out and engage them while others lock the door behind me. Presuming they will have brought more gun than I have, my battle plan would be to try a preemptive shot while fighting to my vehicle to get my AR. I don't think the pastor would be cool with me open carrying an AR15 inside the church. This is not internet badazz stuff, it's an honest recognition that in the unlikely event something bad went down, I'm probably going to die--but hopefully will live long enough to let someone behind me lock the door and save everyone else. If they get in the door, we've lost. 2) I bought commercial walkie talkies to be used by myself and the people who are downstairs. The adults downstairs with the kids are blind to what's going on upstairs. My cameras don't cover every angle of the property, so they need the ability to communicate with me. In the event I see someone come into the parking lot and pull out a rifle/gun, I announce something like "code red, code red, code red" to ensure everyone with a walkie talkie knows something bad is wrong. The problem is that there's too many 'what if's' to cover. The general idea is to get everyone inside, away from doors and windows and get the doors locked (while SOMEONE is calling 911). Again, I would be the sole person armed so it would be up to me to stop or intercede as long as I could to save lives. What am I missing? I'm sure someone will have some ideas. I had a response typed, but a network error ate it. |
| Thanks for this topic. It is something that needs to be addressed in all churches - everything from fire safety to security against armed threats. Church is a place of worship, fellowship and refuge. Hard to think of it in terms of vulnerability for most people. |
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Fortunately my church is full of CCW's. We run a four man usher team or which I am and at least 2 of us are armed. We shadow the pastor between services and sit at the back next to the exits during service. If someone enters the church late or at an odd time we "meet and greet". Every 15 minutes, 2 guys take a security walk and check the entrances that no one has proped open a door or is hiding.
You cand plan for every type of incident and my biggest concern is the kids church and nursery.Another good thing is we have folks who are well trained 3 letter agency and many Marines and Army. We are blessed and havent had an incident and pray that we never do. EDT: I have planned and taken many church members to the range and even plan on a ladies day. More women in churches need to CCW. I even did a disaster planning and prep day and mostly women showed up. |
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Quoted: Exactly. Said in the original post the idea is to lock them out (1st choice) and hunker down and NOT engage in a gunfight inside. However, that might not be possible for various reasons: 1) They whip out a concealed pistol or knife mid-service (therefore they are already inside) 2) They drive up and go immediately to the children's building or start shooting children on the playground 3) They approach from a camera angle that isn't covered 4) I am distracted and just don't see them approach 5) There are multiple assailants who split up In any of those scenarios, it would be incumbent on me to go try to stop it or slow them down. It may be a losing proposition for me but may allow the rest to hunker down and survive....if it allows my kids to live, that's a win in my book. Quoted: Quoted: A Security Plan isn't about planning to prevail in a gunfight inside a church. Try to find someone nearby who has developed facility Security Plans before. They will help keep it from becoming a waste of time and something to pin false hopes to. Exactly. Said in the original post the idea is to lock them out (1st choice) and hunker down and NOT engage in a gunfight inside. However, that might not be possible for various reasons: 1) They whip out a concealed pistol or knife mid-service (therefore they are already inside) 2) They drive up and go immediately to the children's building or start shooting children on the playground 3) They approach from a camera angle that isn't covered 4) I am distracted and just don't see them approach 5) There are multiple assailants who split up In any of those scenarios, it would be incumbent on me to go try to stop it or slow them down. It may be a losing proposition for me but may allow the rest to hunker down and survive....if it allows my kids to live, that's a win in my book. Constructive critique: Much of what you write is based on a pretty narrow scenario that you are imagining. And its tactically focused. That has almost nothing to do with a Security Plan. Narrowing your views like that means you are far more likely to be ill prepared, not recognize the broader risks, not plan resources and not plan what to do when something develops outside of your expectation. Don't allow yourself to get suckered into just thinking about tactical responses. A Security Plan does not fall into that classic trap. |
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Well we're just not going to get a vote through for everyone, it's as simple as that. GA law requires the church to have an official written policy and for us that means an open conference vote where a couple naysayers can put a stop to it. I'm all for everyone who has a CCW to carry, I just don't think we will get that through a vote cleanly. As for your question, if I found you carrying against the policy I'd write you a ticket requiring you to go shooting with me sometime.
I'm going to really push the other deacons to be armed at all times with me (that would put at least 5 armed people in every service). Since we have the keys and the security system code, we're always around if there's any function going on. Quoted:
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While I don't want to sound elitist but I don't necessarily want one member on one side killing another member in crossfire. So right now we are restricting it to leadership. Come on man, you've got to be kidding me. What sort of special training do you have that someone else couldn't also get? What happens when you're sick and not at church? What about when it's ladies prayer night and the sound guy, pastor, and deacons don't have to be there? What if I visit your church? Do I have to leave my 9mm and 34 rounds of ammo in the car?
Now that we've gotten that out of the way, what about a wired intercom to the downstairs area? Probably more effective than a walkie talkie, don't have to keep batteries charged, don't have to worry about someone turning it off, and you know for sure it'll sound off where the people who need to take action are. When the alarm does go off, multiple people need to know the plan. (lock the doors) Don't rely on just Mike and Sarah running around closing doors. They might freeze up, or not be around. Everyone needs to know the plan. Well we're just not going to get a vote through for everyone, it's as simple as that. GA law requires the church to have an official written policy and for us that means an open conference vote where a couple naysayers can put a stop to it. I'm all for everyone who has a CCW to carry, I just don't think we will get that through a vote cleanly. As for your question, if I found you carrying against the policy I'd write you a ticket requiring you to go shooting with me sometime.
I'm going to really push the other deacons to be armed at all times with me (that would put at least 5 armed people in every service). Since we have the keys and the security system code, we're always around if there's any function going on. Although I disagree with the policy that not everyone should be allowed to be armed, I can think of a simple workaround to get a clean pass on the vote if that is your main concern. If the policy is simply members of leadership or the security team can be armed then there you go. Allow anyone who wants to be a "security team" member. Don't make them do anything extra if they don't want to. It would get you your easy pass on the vote and anyone who wished to be security team could simply inform you (or whoever they need to) of the fact. Simple. |
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you need to have multiple plans, active shooter, medical emergency, non custodial parent abduction, fire, etc etc. you need means to secure all egress points, means to evacuate, means to secure children. you might seek plans from larger churches, local PD, local fire and local EMS. your church can also get discounts on insurance if you have people certified for medical emergencies |
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Constructive critique: Much of what you write is based on a pretty narrow scenario that you are imagining. And its tactically focused. That has almost nothing to do with a Security Plan. Narrowing your views like that means you are far more likely to be ill prepared, not recognize the broader risks, not plan resources and not plan what to do when something develops outside of your expectation. Don't allow yourself to get suckered into just thinking about tactical responses. A Security Plan does not fall into that classic trap. Quoted:
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A Security Plan isn't about planning to prevail in a gunfight inside a church. Try to find someone nearby who has developed facility Security Plans before. They will help keep it from becoming a waste of time and something to pin false hopes to. Exactly. Said in the original post the idea is to lock them out (1st choice) and hunker down and NOT engage in a gunfight inside. However, that might not be possible for various reasons: 1) They whip out a concealed pistol or knife mid-service (therefore they are already inside) 2) They drive up and go immediately to the children's building or start shooting children on the playground 3) They approach from a camera angle that isn't covered 4) I am distracted and just don't see them approach 5) There are multiple assailants who split up In any of those scenarios, it would be incumbent on me to go try to stop it or slow them down. It may be a losing proposition for me but may allow the rest to hunker down and survive....if it allows my kids to live, that's a win in my book. Constructive critique: Much of what you write is based on a pretty narrow scenario that you are imagining. And its tactically focused. That has almost nothing to do with a Security Plan. Narrowing your views like that means you are far more likely to be ill prepared, not recognize the broader risks, not plan resources and not plan what to do when something develops outside of your expectation. Don't allow yourself to get suckered into just thinking about tactical responses. A Security Plan does not fall into that classic trap. I get the point you are selling. I really, truly get it. Shooter situations on TV happen completely differently than real life. The problem is preparing for all of the what if's.....I think we have the basics covered. If a shooter got out of his vehicle and started shooting while walking toward the church in mid-service, this is likely what would happen: -5% of the congregation would be woken up by the noise
-10% of the congregation wouldn't hear it (older folks) -20% would think it was kids goofing or firecrackers -20% would realize something was wrong but be useless -10% would realize something was wrong and stand around telling others that something was wrong. -10% would run around like a chicken with it's head cut off -20% would completely freeze -5% would actually move and execute a plan of action, be it calling the cops or moving to help others. I guess it's human nature to not accept that you are in a life or death situation. |
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Although I disagree with the policy that not everyone should be allowed to be armed, I can think of a simple workaround to get a clean pass on the vote if that is your main concern. If the policy is simply members of leadership or the security team can be armed then there you go. Allow anyone who wants to be a "security team" member. Don't make them do anything extra if they don't want to. It would get you your easy pass on the vote and anyone who wished to be security team could simply inform you (or whoever they need to) of the fact. Simple. Quoted:
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While I don't want to sound elitist but I don't necessarily want one member on one side killing another member in crossfire. So right now we are restricting it to leadership. Come on man, you've got to be kidding me. What sort of special training do you have that someone else couldn't also get? What happens when you're sick and not at church? What about when it's ladies prayer night and the sound guy, pastor, and deacons don't have to be there? What if I visit your church? Do I have to leave my 9mm and 34 rounds of ammo in the car?
Now that we've gotten that out of the way, what about a wired intercom to the downstairs area? Probably more effective than a walkie talkie, don't have to keep batteries charged, don't have to worry about someone turning it off, and you know for sure it'll sound off where the people who need to take action are. When the alarm does go off, multiple people need to know the plan. (lock the doors) Don't rely on just Mike and Sarah running around closing doors. They might freeze up, or not be around. Everyone needs to know the plan. Well we're just not going to get a vote through for everyone, it's as simple as that. GA law requires the church to have an official written policy and for us that means an open conference vote where a couple naysayers can put a stop to it. I'm all for everyone who has a CCW to carry, I just don't think we will get that through a vote cleanly. As for your question, if I found you carrying against the policy I'd write you a ticket requiring you to go shooting with me sometime.
I'm going to really push the other deacons to be armed at all times with me (that would put at least 5 armed people in every service). Since we have the keys and the security system code, we're always around if there's any function going on. Although I disagree with the policy that not everyone should be allowed to be armed, I can think of a simple workaround to get a clean pass on the vote if that is your main concern. If the policy is simply members of leadership or the security team can be armed then there you go. Allow anyone who wants to be a "security team" member. Don't make them do anything extra if they don't want to. It would get you your easy pass on the vote and anyone who wished to be security team could simply inform you (or whoever they need to) of the fact. Simple. That's actually brilliant. Policy is that the security team is armed and that anyone who wants to be on it needs to have their CCW and obtain training. We filter out those who might not be a good choice--see those guarding recruitment centers without sights, in pajamas, kilts, etc. I actually like this idea very much. |
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Constructive critique: Much of what you write is based on a pretty narrow scenario that you are imagining. And its tactically focused. That has almost nothing to do with a Security Plan. Narrowing your views like that means you are far more likely to be ill prepared, not recognize the broader risks, not plan resources and not plan what to do when something develops outside of your expectation. Don't allow yourself to get suckered into just thinking about tactical responses. A Security Plan does not fall into that classic trap. Ding ding ding. Kind of telling that OP seems more focused on who can carry and not on what the security plan should entail. |
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you need to have multiple plans, active shooter, medical emergency, non custodial parent abduction, fire, etc etc. you need means to secure all egress points, means to evacuate, means to secure children. you might seek plans from larger churches, local PD, local fire and local EMS. your church can also get discounts on insurance if you have people certified for medical emergencies Agreed. Going beyond this into emergency planning would be good as well. What happens if there is a fire? A tornado warning? These things are more likely to happen than someone bursting in Rambo-style. |
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you need to have multiple plans, active shooter, medical emergency, non custodial parent abduction, fire, etc etc. you need means to secure all egress points, means to evacuate, means to secure children. you might seek plans from larger churches, local PD, local fire and local EMS. your church can also get discounts on insurance if you have people certified for medical emergencies All good points, thank you. We have one game warden (occasionally) and one firefighter in most of our services. We also need to get a blow out kit and learn to use it. I will also check with the local police to see if they can come out and do a security briefing. The problem with that is that some of them feel no one should be armed. Our church is literally steps from the next county over, so we are on the very edge of response time. |
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Agreed. Going beyond this into emergency planning would be good as well. What happens if there is a fire? A tornado warning? These things are more likely to happen than someone bursting in Rambo-style. Quoted:
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you need to have multiple plans, active shooter, medical emergency, non custodial parent abduction, fire, etc etc. you need means to secure all egress points, means to evacuate, means to secure children. you might seek plans from larger churches, local PD, local fire and local EMS. your church can also get discounts on insurance if you have people certified for medical emergencies Agreed. Going beyond this into emergency planning would be good as well. What happens if there is a fire? A tornado warning? These things are more likely to happen than someone bursting in Rambo-style. We have those covered and central would be the walkie talkies. The WT's also help should a kid get hurt and need emergency help (more likely). |
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Ding ding ding. Kind of telling that OP seems more focused on who can carry and not on what the security plan should entail. Quoted:
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Constructive critique: Much of what you write is based on a pretty narrow scenario that you are imagining. And its tactically focused. That has almost nothing to do with a Security Plan. Narrowing your views like that means you are far more likely to be ill prepared, not recognize the broader risks, not plan resources and not plan what to do when something develops outside of your expectation. Don't allow yourself to get suckered into just thinking about tactical responses. A Security Plan does not fall into that classic trap. Ding ding ding. Kind of telling that OP seems more focused on who can carry and not on what the security plan should entail.  NO!
You better have a plan or you have a potential BIGGER problem. "FAIL TO PLAN, PLAN TO FAIL"
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Ding ding ding. Kind of telling that OP seems more focused on who can carry and not on what the security plan should entail. Quoted:
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Constructive critique: Much of what you write is based on a pretty narrow scenario that you are imagining. And its tactically focused. That has almost nothing to do with a Security Plan. Narrowing your views like that means you are far more likely to be ill prepared, not recognize the broader risks, not plan resources and not plan what to do when something develops outside of your expectation. Don't allow yourself to get suckered into just thinking about tactical responses. A Security Plan does not fall into that classic trap. Ding ding ding. Kind of telling that OP seems more focused on who can carry and not on what the security plan should entail. Technically the OP is trying to get SOMETHING passed by the congregation to get someone in the church carrying. If the church votes it down, no one carries per GA law. If we have a blanket statement 'everyone carries' is put forward, it fails guaranteed. I think the security team approach is best--only the security team carries. To get on the security team, you get training and CCW permit. I'm trying to get past the initial hurdle, which is the law. Concurrent with that, we need to also put forward a comprehensive security plan of who does what given a set of facts. We can't cover every possible scenario, just hit the big ticket items (fire, injury, active shooter) and know who does what. |
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Quoted: NO!You better have a plan or you have a potential BIGGER problem. "FAIL TO PLAN, PLAN TO FAIL" Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Constructive critique: Much of what you write is based on a pretty narrow scenario that you are imagining. And its tactically focused. That has almost nothing to do with a Security Plan. Narrowing your views like that means you are far more likely to be ill prepared, not recognize the broader risks, not plan resources and not plan what to do when something develops outside of your expectation. Don't allow yourself to get suckered into just thinking about tactical responses. A Security Plan does not fall into that classic trap. Ding ding ding. Kind of telling that OP seems more focused on who can carry and not on what the security plan should entail. NO!You better have a plan or you have a potential BIGGER problem. "FAIL TO PLAN, PLAN TO FAIL" A plan? Counting the number of people who are armed scattered around a church isn't a plan. Thats like when we were little kids playing football. We'd get in a huddle and someone said "Everyone go out for a pass". If all you have is a hammer, everything looks like a nail. Bernard Baruch |
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1. check out sheep dog seminars for churches 2. when i was on security detail we had a four to 5 man team. two in the lobby and would do walk arounds the building and worship center and parking lot. one was observing who was coming and going. always have someone and the best trained where the kids are, ALWAYS. 3. it is stupid to have one person armed and only one. the teams need to be armed and ready and trained. Sheep dog seminars? Oh man, that's hilarious. |