Posted: 6/11/2004 2:53:09 PM EDT
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My neighbor purchased a used computer with a P4 2.4Ghz CPU and ASUS P4B533 Mobo. When it arrived the CPU heatsink/fan was loose. He took off the CPU/fan and proceeded to power up the computer. He says it was on for a few minutes and then shutdown (3-4 minutes) He did this several times and each time the "on" time was shorter until it would not power up at all. He let it cool and tried again. Now, when the power button is pushed the fans "jump" with a quick shot of power, but the computer does not power up. Is the CPU toasted? Is the Mobo toasted? How can you tell which one, or if both, are no good? I thought Intel P4's were thermal protected and would slow down and then shut down anyway. (I think there was a video of this on Tom"s Hardware.) |
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Why try to run the computer without the heatsink and fan? It is there for a reason. As is the thermal grease. Sounds like a motherboard problem to me, which is a pretty broad diagnosis. Processor could be fried. If run without cooling apparatus, it more than likely is fried. |
| There has to be a fan mounted otherwise it will be damaged. You will also need some sort of thermal paste between CPU and fan. Something like Arctic Silver or similar carried by Fryes, CompUSA, Circuit City, Etc... I am not sure you can test the rest of the equipment now without another CPU. TigerDirect.com has good prices on CPU's. Good luck |
Some thermal protection built in but they don’t have idiot protection. By truing the unit on and letting run until heat caused the processor to crash and then repeating the process he has almost certainly damaged the processor. Heating the processor up to failure point and then repeating at some point you will have a fatal failure. The fact the cycle time was getting shorter should have stopped the fool. My guess is he has a ruined processor and maybe a ruined motherboard as well.
Get a new processor… |
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a: yes he damaged the processor b: some system boards have a thermal fuse that will kill the power to the cpu if it overheats. these are hard wired to the board and when they fail the only solution is a new systemboard. Either of these could be causing the machine to do what you described. The solution to the problem is a new board AND processor. After what he did i can promise you neither of those componets will ever be stable and if it could be revived the life expectancy would be a matter of days. replace both and DO NOT run ANY PC SYSTEM WITHOUT CPU AND CASE FANS!!!!! Modern system require a good amount of airflow!!!!!!! I go so far as to add heat sinks to chipsets on new boards and my system has 6 fans. Let me say this again ADD FANS to new systems HEAT IS A KILLER!!! mike |
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Tonight we did a little closer inspection and did not find any physical damage to either CPU or MoBo.(nothing melted or burnt smelling). Just ordered a new MoBo to try out. A Mach Speed P4MDPT for $5 at Tiger www.tigerdirect.com/applications/searchtools/item-Details.asp?EdpNo=614940&sku=M450-1009 one day almost free rebate today. If it's the Mobo we're home free, if it's the CPU we'll have to do a bit more work. Apparantly the CPU fan mount was damaged in shipping. It was on there, it just wasn't making solid contact with the CPU. Last night this Mobo had $60 in rebates, one day only. I guess we were in the right place at the right time! |
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Intel chips have a thermal diode in them and will shut the cpu off as soon as the temp is too high! I wouldn't rely on this! Put the heatsink back on and try start it up! If it doesn't well time for your friend to break out the wallet! Have to mark this for the Dumbass files! 
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The P4 is definitly fried. Don't even bother installing it on the new board. You will not see any visual damage on the chip but the internals are all toast. Here are some specs on the P4 2.4Ghz processor: Current consumed @ 2.4Ghz = 49.8 amps Power dissipation @ 2.4Ghz= 57.8 watts You essentially have a 60 watt lightbulb the size of a dime. Put you hand on a 60w bulb after its been on a few minutes. Thats how the chip feels. No heatsink and no fan  = death  = Mastercard  Fritz |
6 fans is overkill. It's better to just use a good heatsink wich will spread out the heat from the cpu better. I have a zalman finned heatsink that cost about $30. Above it is a nearly silent nexus 80mm fan running at about 7 volts. The only other fan in the system is the 120mm fan in the PSU. It's speed is adjustable and I leave it on lthe lowest setting 90% of the time. I have a fan controller so I can ramp up the 80mm when doing intensive stuff. I can also push up the speed on the PSU fan if I want to add more cooling. The benefit of all this is I get really good cooling at extremely low noise. Next up is a bigger PSU that's even quieter, some sound absorbing foam, and an enclosure to put everything in. After everything is done you won't even be able to tell the computer is on when your'e right next to it! |
No it is not, the more airflow the better. More airflow = longer life/reliability There is no such thing as overkill when it comes to cooling a computer system. If you are running a 3.0Ghz system, 1GB+ ram, a couple of 7200/10000 rpm hard drives ect… 6 fans may be a must. The fans must be arranged so they do not cause turbulence in the case. If you do decide to get more fans get good quality low noise fans or the computer will sound like a snow blower when on. You can get fans now that are for all intents silent in a normal room. |
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i am running a 1.7 dual processor board with 6 scsi drives. 6 fans is a minimum in my system. I stopped there because i physically had no more room in the case.I build and service high end servers for a living. Let me say this again YOU CAN NOT HAVE ENOUGH FANS IN A MODERN MACHINE. The RS6000 under my desk could almost hover from the airflow i have in it. The heat output of modern chipsets and CPU's is higher than what the average CPU case can vent. Heat sinks are great and very important. Just remember than forcing hot air across the sink is as bad as no sink at all. While the average user may not see a problem it wil drastically shorten the life of the chips. Most people scrap a PC every 3-4 years so this may not be a problem for them, Also VERY few end users use even a 1.3ghz machine to it's potential. As a result the thermal problems are not as bad. TRUST ME ON THIS!!! If you have room for fans ADD THEM. You will thank me later. mike |
If you want a "silent" system and on that that doesn't sound like a F-15 in afterburner, you need to get a Water cooling kit! Current Silicon chip technology(we need diamond material, dammit) is about at its limit for air cooling without making your case sound like a Jet engine! 
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| One thing you might want to look into for a quiet system is a Vapor Cycle CPU cooler. Basically it's a smaller version of a car or home A/C system for your computer. Maximum PC tested a vapor cycle system, and they read around -40 degrees at the base of the cooler. I think noise levels were on average quieter too. CPU's are like car engines, colder = more power and better running hotter = fried and a happy visa merchant. |
Yea, the Visa merchant will be happy when you plop $800 on your card! 
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That's all? I've got 12. 
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P4's will not fry. Go to tomshardware.com to see him take a heatsink on and off of a P4, the system will slow, but will continue to run without a heatsink and fan. It should not crash. It just throttles is speed back to reduce power consumption, and thus the temperature. Making it a very expensive 486 instead of a P4 while you have no heatsink/fan. With an AMD CPU, it will fry, make a pop, and smell a lot(I've done this twice now ).I would reset the bios on the MB, and see if it will start again. Also, if the system was crashing before, check for a short, maybe a screw that is resting on the motherboard shorting out. That would also cause the symptoms you describe. If you know anyone else with a P4, swap them to see if the problem is corrected. |
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Geez. Does your neighbor also hit himself over the head repeatedly with a hammer to see if it will cause damage? Running a CPU without a fan isn't anywhere near as bad as the constant restarting of the computer. The temperature delta from startup is much more damaging to a CPU then when it's actually up and running constantly. Switch CPU's and try again. If it runs fine, that CPU is toast. |
Correct. No heatsink/fan = no CPU worky worky. Go ahead and dig a 6"x6" hole in the yard, put the old CPU to rest, and hope you didn't kill the motherboard with it. Mobile Intel processors have the ability to clock themselves down to save power, but they still require some method of thermal dissipation. CPUs will overheat very quickly if not given adequate cooling. |
Good point Mike...I have like 8-10 fans running in any gaming box I build....this guys fried his CPU at the very least..I'm not familiar with that particular MB, but having "Fan 1" disconnected SHOULD have caused the BIOS to shut the system down..... Sounds like somebody screwed around too much and now has to learn from his mistakes.... |
Mine runs 8, the three case fans, CPU fan, motherboard fan and one of the power supply fans are tempature controlled, it gets louder as it gets hotter. In the winter when the heat is on I have to crack open the window so the case can get cool air or else it sounds like a C-130 at take-off.
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49.8 amps huh? I doubt it consumes 49.8 amps. Maybe per month 
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| Eh, about the water-cooling... You don't really need that unless you really want cooling (IE: for overclocking) but don't need as much as refrigeration... Just get a heatsink that will take an 80mm fan, and get a 80mm-120mm adapter. A good 120 can be damn near silent and still push as much air as a 60mm that sounds like you've got a jet engine in there. |
The figure is about right. Remember that the P4 2.4ghz uses 50.7A, maximum, but note that the voltage is 1.75V. Go here and check it out: users.erols.com/chare/elec.htm |
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Your processor is screwed, and I'm pretty sure it took the die with it. I've done that before with a 900 mhz Duron when I was a junior in high school  One guy I know has a high end gaming box and used the cases stock 6 fan locations and then made more with a hole saw. |
Sorry but as an IBM hardware engineer i say ...... BULLSHIT If tom is standing by this he is not only and idiot he is outright lying. Even "throttled back it would still cook itself in a matter of seconds. Modern chips genrate an enourmous amount of heat. I have seen P4's get so hot without prroper cooloing that the laminate pc board begins to bubble. let me repeat this for the uneducated masses ... you can NOT over cool a modern INTEL based processor. Airflow Airflow Airflow. mike |
sorry but intels do not cook that fast; you are thinking about athlons. the motherboard will go before an intel processor. you can't compare the cooling requirements of a 1u or 2u server case with a standard tower case. unless you are doing some extreme overclocking you don't need that many fans. for most people it will be a waste. i also do this for a living. |