Posted: 1/27/2004 5:48:46 AM EDT
|
There has been some talk since 9/11 about re-instituting the draft. It has been met with skepticism by many, resistance from the Pentagon (the argument being that a volunteer force is more reliable and effective), and howls of derision from the usual suspects (who are to busy sipping their lattes to be bothered by such trivial matters as defending freedom against oppression). My question is, since the draft was in place throughout WWII, and we did pretty damned well back then, how can it be said that it's the DRAFT that's the problem? Could the problems attributed to the draft during Vietnam actually have been caused by something else, and the draft became the scapegoat? I ask in all sincerity, because I'm not entirely sure a draft is a good idea. What I am seeking is to understand why the draft is so resisted/feared/loathed if it actually WORKED in the past? BTW, I fully understand the difference between WWII and Vietnam. Doesn't really matter, in my book. Remember that the WWII draft started BEFORE WWII (granted, in anticipation of it, but still BEFORE). What say ye? |
|
IMO, involuntary conscription should be a last resort for the country, as in a state of emergency. Hell, we haven't even declared war yet. To do it because not enough people join is not acceptable. Too many people on this site are pro draft because they secretly love social tampering when they approve of the direction of the tampering. |
|
I believe our military strength before WW2, when compared to our potential enemies at that time, would be considered lacking for the task at hand, and a draft made sense at that time. Today, our military strength when compared to ANY possible enemy is so vastly superior it can hardly be expressed in understandable terms. I believe the reason the draft worked during WW2 is because the average American felt there was a good chance this country could be invaded, and they were willing to do what it took to ensure their way of life. Today the average American is more concerned with the performance of their 401k then the possibility of another large 9-11 type of attack. At this time I do not believe a draft would be widely supported by the American people. If / when we suffer another 9-11 type of attack, the American people MIGHT realize there is only ONE way to deal with Muslim terrorists, and then they would support a draft. Right now Congress could raise the manpower numbers and I believe the recruiters could fill the slots over the next few years. |
|
This question goes to the heart of what we want our republic to be. is it ok for the majority to enslave a minority for the purposes of defending the majorities liberty? the draft worked? worked to do what? in WWII we were fighting for our lives as Germany and Japan were spreading like a cancer across the planet. in Vietnam we didn't win the war because the politicians turned the war into a money making skeem. I don't like the idea of a draft because i think it's wrong to deprive someone of liberty except in extreme and dire situations. we aren't there yet. |
|
It's not that the draft is a problem. It's that the draft isn't the solution. We are still capable of fighting a war in Korea, and maintain our presence all over the world. We are still able to rotate units out of the theater at 6 mos to a year. There are still plenty of troops doing peacekeeping missions all over the world. The separate services are still having to provide various types of support to non-critical missions and to other distractors. We can come up with a great deal of force just by rearrangeing the pieces on the board. The All-Vol force has proven itself as THE best force ever fielded by the USA. It's managed to taek over two nations nearly simultainiously by only using a small portion of it's actual force. It's not so much that a conscrpit force won't work, but that it's a bad solution to a non-problem. I trust that the Pentegon probably knows what it needs in terms of selective service than a politician who's trying to make political hay. The fact is the draft is just not needed. Not that it automatically becomes a problem if used. Since the end of the Cold War, the gap between the military might of the USA and all the rest of the world has just been getting bigger and bigger. Frankly, there's less of a need for a draft than there ever has been. Ross |
| USA Sen. Charles Rangel(D-NY) was only thinking out loud about bringing back the draft, and the news media printed his thoughts because he is one of THEIR post children. From what I've read in the NY Times, the thought of bring back the involuntary conscription is pretty much dead. I believe the USA Army was initally concerned that it would not get enough people, but that has been proven wrong. I think the USA Army is not pushing for it is because the people who are in the volunteer Army, want to be there, versus people who don't want to be. What would you rather have? People want to be there or people can't wait to get out. |
|
Now, more seriously... During and before WWII we had a much different society. People actually cared enough about the country to defend it. There was not that great a rate of volunteers because most expected to be drafted any way. Most were proud to go when called. By Viet Nam, after the debaucle in Korea,(don't shoot until fired upon my ass!!! you can't cross this line to chase the enemy F*** you) liberalism had already taken hold. This mind set caused all the liberals that could to dodge the draft. We also had high rates of "go to war or go to jail" which was the major problem. The very people that you would not want in the military were being sent in by the courts. Once again, we were faced with the same liberalist rules of engagement combined with the high percentage of criminals and drug use. This brought about contempt for our military. A lot of hard work went into rebuilding the military after this and we finally have a military that we can be proud of. 2 years ago, the draft would have worked. Today, the liberals are already destroying everything we learned from 9/11. The brain dead follow them. We would end up with another VN if we reinstated the draft. Keep the all volunteer military. It is always stronger than a draft military. |
|
I believe that some of you are missing an important point. A two-year stint of service would do the youth of this great country a lot of good. We can all probably think of some 18 to 21 year old that is goofing off, working at McD's, with no discipline in their life, and unable to get up and get out of bed without their Mommy begging them 5 or 6 times. Don't you believe that a stint in the military would be good for these type of fellows? I do. Of course, if I was Emperor, we would have a system much like Starship Troopers. Voluntary service with the reward of citizenship and voting. But that's just me. |
|
Draft would be bad. Right now, you HAVE to have a HS Diploma to serve. So if there was a draft, what would happen? Either the military would LOWER it's standards, OR all one would have to do to avoid service is drop out of high school. So which do you prefer for our nation? A military with lower standards, or more HS drop outs? No one in the military wants a draft. Only Charles Rangel wants it. And HE only wants it to cause trouble, and make political mischief. NOT for the betterment of our military. |
|
I'm not too hot on the idea of the draft simply because I saw enough useless assholes who VOLUNTEERED for duty while I was in! Who wants to make it worse? Still, I cannot deny that O_P has a point on the good a two-year stint would do the average punk. Maybe they could be left stateside to shuffle paper or something, I don't know. Certainly wouldn't want them in combat units, though... |
|
Quoted: A two-year stint of service would do the youth of this great country a lot of good. We can all probably think of some 18 to 21 year old that is goofing off, working at McD's, with no discipline in their life, and unable to get up and get out of bed without their Mommy begging them 5 or 6 times. Don't you believe that a stint in the military would be good for these type of fellows? I do. I believe that most who support conscription have a ficticious image of a slacker coming in, and a perfect (constitution and freedom loving) citizen coming out. As Zaphod pointed out, this is not even the result of volunteer service. Of course, if I was Emperor, we would have a system much like Starship Troopers. Voluntary service with the reward of citizenship and voting. But that's just me. |
|
Quoted: Of course, if I was Emperor, we would have a system much like Starship Troopers. Voluntary service with the reward of citizenship and voting. But that's just me. I guess my tongue-in-cheek comment was taken too seriously. I doubt that I will ever [u]really[/u] be emperor. But I [u]have[/u] seen the results of undiciplined young men going into the military and coming out with shoulders squared back and a crisp "Yes sir" as an answer to a question. I do indeed believe that military service can make men out of boys. Maybe not with 100% success, but with a lot of success nonetheless. It wouldn't hurt most yung men to spend a little time with Uncle Sam. |
|
First of all, Dick Morris is correct in saying that the reason democrats want more troops sent to Iraq is so they can try to bring back the draft. This is the ONLY way they will "get peoples attention" and turn the tide against the war on terror. Liberal assholes like rangel and clinton are using this as a political tool, not a means to protect the country. Second, NO ONE has a right to force me to volunteer or serve if I don't want to. Third, just because a couple of slackers were straightened up with VOLUNTARY military service does NOT mean forcing everyone into it will work for all of the loafers. I think some of you fail to see that. Fourth, why should only men be drafted? Women want to be in the military, they should be drafted and forced to serve too. Fifth, the only time a draft is acceptable is when it is a last resort and the country faces annihilation at the hands of an evil force. This means, a country that declared war without cause on another and needed men to fight before or it will be defeated is NOT a reason to draft. Rather, the country that was attacked and faces man power shortages and faces annihilation can then draft. Sixth, a conscript military is never a good thing. As stated earlier, the gap between America's military and that of any other nations (or a few combined) is so big that a draft isn't even going to help. Better use of the troops we have (i.e. cut the peacing keeping missions, inefficient use of forces for roles which they aren't meant to be in, etc.) would do much more than a draft would. A draft worked with the generation of the 1940s because they were FAR different and America was FAR different than today. I have faith that people will serve if the need is there. At this time, however, more efficient use of current forces would be much better. The problem isn't too few troops, it's too many being deployed and too many being sent to do jobs which America shouldn't bother with. |
|
Any draft that would be even close to politically successful would have to eliminate deferments for all but genuine medical problems. No school deferments, no marriage deferments, physically limited could still be used in support roles or other Federal service. Military option 2 years, CCC Corps or equivalent, 4 years, etc. Men and women, and them not so sure, all go. That would keep the draft dodger option away, Canada doesn't need an influx of non-productive people so that option would likely not be there. That would result in the following - Ridiculous numbers of young people with nothing to do and the military being the designated babysitter. |
|
Quoted: The Starship Troopers idea is bandied about monthly here, and has lots of support. Would you support it if service to Uncle Sam was not Military Service? You know, construction, administrative support, skilled services, etc... I'm sure my buddy Zaphod won't mind the hijack. [:D] Not like the book. The Federal Gooberment was way too big and powerful for my taste. But maybe some sort of "Community Service" would be a good idea. Maybe working for the individual states or even county or city governments could suffice. And I'm not talking about "make work" like Woodrow Wilson did in his day with the CCC. You will remember that in "Starship Troopers", anyone that wanted to serve to earn the right to vote was assigned service. Even if a paraplegic wanted to serve, they had to find a job he could do. I believe testing vaccines was one of the less glamorous jobs. Maybe young men could be given a very small wage, room and board, uniforms, and required to adhere to military standards while in service. I will freely admit that I haven't completely thought this all through. Maybe there is a big problem I am forgetting. But I know that my short military service did me a lot of good and matured me in a hurry. The idea may have some problems, but it sure beats offering young men welfare and selling drugs for a living. |
|
Hey, why stop at drafting women. Why not draft the guys over 35 into war work industrial service. Lets say Uncle sam sends you a notice, that certain industrial sectors require man power for the good of the war effort. Your current hi paying job, (thats paying off your new Tahoe and buying you a nice house out in the burbs.), is no longer considered a national priority. The govenment has decided, that you must move to Oklahoma and go to work in a manufacturing plant for a much lower government approved wage. You see, what if the govenment decided, that not just the young needed their shoulders squared up? I don't see to many of the Starship Troopers guys willing to commit to total national service for life and frankly, I know of a few 30 and 40 year old slackers who could use a little shoulder squaring themselves. Personaly I can't see a draft happening short of a mushroom cloud rising over an American city or the Chinese deciding to roll on large parts of Asia. In that case the war of National Survival is on and there will be no, sitting back, resting on your prior service, sending the younger generation off to the fight. It'll be everybodys problem, man, women, young and old. If that cuts into some lifestyles, TO BAD SO SAD. I have a little bit of a problem with the idea that only soldiers should be allowed to vote, but the woman sitting on the production line turning out the shells and bullets should not. I think that the very idea of a Junta like military class ruling the country would have horrified the founding fathers, who were all to familiar with the imperialistic military monarchies of Europe. I hate to tell the Starship Troopers Guys, but this ain't Argentina. The American people will never stand for a military ruling class, no matter how much you think your prior service entitles you to extra rights above and beyond those of the less than worthy civilians, who's rights you were sworn to uphold and protect in the first place. |
|
Quoted: Hey, why stop at drafting women. Why not draft the guys over 35 into war work industrial service. Lets say Uncle sam sends you a notice, that certain industrial sectors require man power for the good of the war effort. Your current hi paying job, (thats paying off your new Tahoe and buying you a nice house out in the burbs.), is no longer considered a national priority. The govenment has decided, that you must move to Oklahoma and go to work in a manufacturing plant for a much lower government approved wage. You see, what if the govenment decided, that not just the young needed their shoulders squared up? I don't see to many of the Starship Troopers guys willing to commit to total national service for life and frankly, I know of a few 30 and 40 year old slackers who could use a little shoulder squaring themselves. Personaly I can't see a draft happening short of a mushroom cloud rising over an American city or the Chinese deciding to roll on large parts of Asia. In that case the war of National Survival is on and there will be no, sitting back, resting on your prior service, sending the younger generation off to the fight. It'll be everybodys problem, man, women, young and old. If that cuts into some lifestyles, TO BAD SO SAD. I have a little bit of a problem with the idea that only soldiers should be allowed to vote, but the woman sitting on the production line turning out the shells and bullets should not. I think that the very idea of a Junta like military class ruling the country would have horrified the founding fathers, who were all to familiar with the imperialistic military monarchies of Europe. I hate to tell the Starship Troopers Guys, but this ain't Argentina. The American people will never stand for a military ruling class, no matter how much you think your prior service entitles you to extra rights above and beyond those of the less than worthy civilians, who's rights you were sworn to uphold and protect in the first place. Wow you said it better than I tried to. I think some here who advocate a draft or forced government service should read this post twice, especially the first half. |
|
I heard that if you have $30,000 You can buy your way out of the draft. I heard that bush was gonna suspend posse comitatus. We should've ran someone good against Bush when we had the chance. DOWN WITH THE UNION! opps! sorry, I watched 'Gangs of New york' one too many times. |