Posted: 5/19/2013 8:08:21 PM EDT
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I temporarily stopped squats due to knee pain, but I'm progressing well with deadlifts. I think deadlifts are actually improving my knees.
After each workout, I feel a good tightness on my hamstrings, but nothing on my quadriceps. That may actually be why it doesn't hurt my knees. Is that how it's supposed to feel? Or does it sound like I might be overusing my hams? |
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drop your hips lower. drive your knees out as long as you can clear them. Granted, everyone has different technique for everything, but one shouldn't typically drop hips too low on conventional deadlift. Sumo would go to parallel, but conventional should drop to 45* or thereabouts. Yes to driving knees out. |
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Don't let your hips dictate your back position, work those portions individually. Dropping your hips too low will kill your mechanical advantage with conventional deadlift, so don't be surprised if maintaining a flat back keeps your torso closer to parallel over the floor- not exactly, but you get the idea. You will not have a vertical spine in a conventional deadlift.
If you need to get a more vertical spine, you will want to utilize a sumo deadlift, which will allow a lower hip position. |
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Quoted: Thanks. My knee pain is from the degenerative joint disease that I have had for years. One more question if you don't mind, should I be driving my knees out in the deadlift as in the squat? Gotcha. Looks like your other questions have been answered, so good luck! |
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Don't let your hips dictate your back position, work those portions individually. Dropping your hips too low will kill your mechanical advantage with conventional deadlift, so don't be surprised if maintaining a flat back keeps your torso closer to parallel over the floor- not exactly, but you get the idea. You will not have a vertical spine in a conventional deadlift. If you need to get a more vertical spine, you will want to utilize a sumo deadlift, which will allow a lower hip position. Can you find a video of both so I can visualize this? |
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Don't let your hips dictate your back position, work those portions individually. Dropping your hips too low will kill your mechanical advantage with conventional deadlift, so don't be surprised if maintaining a flat back keeps your torso closer to parallel over the floor- not exactly, but you get the idea. You will not have a vertical spine in a conventional deadlift. If you need to get a more vertical spine, you will want to utilize a sumo deadlift, which will allow a lower hip position. I think I'm doing it as illustrated in Starting Strength, but I'll have to video myself to confirm this. |
From Dave Tate:
I haven't watched this one in a while, but it looks like he doesn't advocate a real low hip on sumo, either. I know with our training in sumo (for those that pull that way), my coach usually advocates a more parallel hip. As I said before, though, there is no absolute standard to account for everyone's mechanics. |
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How long have you had knee pain? About eight years. Running or walking on a decline or down stairs exarcebates it. You say temporarily, how long is that or what will be the determining factor in your return to squats?
Good question. Maybe a couple to a few months. I keep reading about Gluchosamine/chondroitin/MSM working miracles on some people, so I'm going to give them a try. Then I'll go by feel. In another thread, I saw darktide has posted some studies supporting that squats ameliorated knee pain. I am hoping that will be true for me as well. |
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From Dave Tate:  http://youtu.be/Qp8Sx9dX9LM
I haven't watched this one in a while, but it looks like he doesn't advocate a real low hip on sumo, either. I know with our training in sumo (for those that pull that way), my coach usually advocates a more parallel hip. As I said before, though, there is no absolute standard to account for everyone's mechanics. Is that what the speed should be like? It seems more explosive than controlled. |
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force = mass x acceleration, power = work / time
In my opinion, when training for strength one should always move weights as quickly as possible with good technique, that is, you should apply the same force to a 95lb barbell as you would a 405lb barbell, etc. Again my opinion, but training explosively helps develop strength. |
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How long have you had knee pain? About eight years. Running or walking on a decline or down stairs exarcebates it. You say temporarily, how long is that or what will be the determining factor in your return to squats?
Good question. Maybe a couple to a few months. I keep reading about Gluchosamine/chondroitin/MSM working miracles on some people, so I'm going to give them a try. Then I'll go by feel. In another thread, I saw darktide has posted some studies supporting that squats ameliorated knee pain. I am hoping that will be true for me as well. Age? Check out mobilityWOD and see his knee mobilization. Joint mobilization with strengthening seems to do well with knee pain even if arthritic. |
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In my opinion, when training for strength one should always move weights as quickly as possible with good technique, that is, you should apply the same force to a 95lb barbell as you would a 405lb barbell, etc. Again my opinion, but training explosively helps develop strength. When I do weights, I explode as quick as I can to the height of my lift and then do a controlled but resisting return to the original position. That way I'm really working the nerves and muscle on the way up and the antagonistic muscle on the way down. I think. 
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How long have you had knee pain? About eight years. Running or walking on a decline or down stairs exarcebates it. You say temporarily, how long is that or what will be the determining factor in your return to squats?
Good question. Maybe a couple to a few months. I keep reading about Gluchosamine/chondroitin/MSM working miracles on some people, so I'm going to give them a try. Then I'll go by feel. In another thread, I saw darktide has posted some studies supporting that squats ameliorated knee pain. I am hoping that will be true for me as well. Age? Check out mobilityWOD and see his knee mobilization. Joint mobilization with strengthening seems to do well with knee pain even if arthritic. Early 30s. I will look that up. Thank you. |
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Previous knee injuries, trauma? Gotten any treatment for it? No injuries I can think of. Just wear and tear from years in the Army. Was seen by an orthopedic doctor and was diagnosed with degenerative joint disease, which is pretty vague as I understand it. I tried tape and the strap over the tendon, but that didn't do anything. |
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force = mass x acceleration, power = work / time In my opinion, when training for strength one should always move weights as quickly as possible with good technique, that is, you should apply the same force to a 95lb barbell as you would a 405lb barbell, etc. Again my opinion, but training explosively helps develop strength. I pretend I hate the bar and rip it off the ground....I'm not sure what technique that is but it gets 500#s in the air 
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Check out mobilityWOD and see his knee mobilization. I've been watching a lot of his videos. Very interesting stuff. Unless I'm missing something, it seems that his solution to all knee (and elbow) problems is isolating the joint and increasing range of motion to hyperextension. I'd be lying if I said I'm not skeptical, but I will give it a try. Thanks again for pointing out that source. |
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Check out mobilityWOD and see his knee mobilization. I've been watching a lot of his videos. Very interesting stuff. Unless I'm missing something, it seems that his solution to all knee (and elbow) problems is isolating the joint and increasing range of motion to hyperextension. I'd be lying if I said I'm not skeptical, but I will give it a try. Thanks again for pointing out that source. I wouldn't say increasing the range of motion to hyper-extension as much as it is, the full range of motion at the joint is not available because the joint alignment is off. I like some of the MWOD stuff but not all. Reasons I like it is that they are relatively simple things that can done to help chronic injuries that set the joints up for re-alignment, but I don't know that he realizes that is what is happening. His emphasis seems to be largely on the muscles when the muscles are the reactionary component to joint issues. He is one of few PTs that get to the point that the 1st rib is involved with shoulder pain (though I would say there is involvement from the neck and upper back (spine) as well). The tennis ball mash or whatever into the top of the shoulder and the knee joint mobilizations are the two treatment stuff I really agree most with. If those don't help, seeing a professional to facilitate the re-alignment would be the next course of action. |
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I'm sleeping in a call room all day avoiding admissions...fucking retarded. My ICU is full.... I want a fucking beer. Knee hurts, right? Mobilize above... Meaning the hip. Mobilize below... Meaning the ankle. THEN worry about the problem joint itself... Elbow hurts? Mobilize the shoulder, mobilize the wrist... Then mobilize the elbow... Apply to any joint. |
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It's not avoiding. It's optimizing. By mobilizing above/below, you're better able to work on the mechanics of the problematic/dysfunctional joint, lessening the impact of up/downstream restriction. Not hard to delay getting to the problem joint at the end of a 20 minute mobility session.
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No workout for me today either. This blows.
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After a laundry list of injuries/surgeries I have just begun to DL again. I have had 3 seperate knee surgeries and a hip surgery in the last 5 years. I have had low back/pelvic problems since 2001 (hit by a car). I have no problem squatting but keep the weight moderate as I am still healing from the hip surgery (to correct FAI, a torn labrum, and cyst removal from the ball). I have been using a trap bar to DL and it seems to be working better than a conventional bar as far as my low back is concerned, as I can get my hips lower into the lift when pulling. YMMV.
I've been digging the shit outta this forum/site since I found it: http://www.t-nation.com/ S/F Al |
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Honestly theres no correct way of deadlifting. it varies 100% from person to person. Anyone seen Stan Efferding pull lately? If someone was pulling half the weight he was the EXACT same way they'd ridicule him for improper form and make jokes about his back snapping |
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After a laundry list of injuries/surgeries I have just begun to DL again. I have had 3 seperate knee surgeries and a hip surgery in the last 5 years. I have had low back/pelvic problems since 2001 (hit by a car). I have no problem squatting but keep the weight moderate as I am still healing from the hip surgery (to correct FAI, a torn labrum, and cyst removal from the ball). I have been using a trap bar to DL and it seems to be working better than a conventional bar as far as my low back is concerned, as I can get my hips lower into the lift when pulling. YMMV. I've been digging the shit outta this forum/site since I found it: http://www.t-nation.com/ S/F Al T-Nation was awesome back in the day, some of their articles can be a little bit hit or miss now. That said, I generally trust anything by Dan John, Ripp, Wendler, Dave Tate and Staley. You should look up and watch the vidoes titled "So You Think You Can Deadlift". |
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T-Nation was awesome back in the day, some of their articles can be a little bit hit or miss now. That said, I generally trust anything by Dan John, Ripp, Wendler, Dave Tate and Staley. You should look up and watch the vidoes titled "So You Think You Can Deadlift". Ya T-nation was a lot better when they only had a few people writing articles. Now it seem like they have a daily quota of articles to publish and they don't care what they are about. |
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I am a recent (last 6 months) suscriber to T-Nation so I cannot speak of the past. There is one primary article per day and I usually take something positive away from it. That said, I am not new to lifting forums, but most were "Gear" forums. Marky's was one of the better ones (defunct about 5 years ago). Info revolving around that subject on forums is very clouded now. I can see where folks new to alot of the stuff can get some very confusing (and alot of times just downright wrong) information.
Anyway, I pulled 405 X 8 using the trap bar on Saturday. Once I get my base confident, I'm going to start pulling conventionally again. S/F Al |
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Belt and I have had a strange relationship. I had my only gym injury due to a belt. I tore the cartilage from the bottom of my rib cage due to a belt and 515lb DL. It seemed like a very odd injury until the mechanics of the movement, belt, and my body structure were explained to me (by someone much smarter than I). I now very rarely lift with a belt sans squats both back and front.
YMMV S/F Al |
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Belt and I have had a strange relationship. I had my only gym injury due to a belt. I torn the cartilage from the bottom of my rib cage due to a belt and 515lb DL. It seemed like a very odd injury until the mechanics of the movement, belt, and my body structure were explained to me (by someone much smarter than I). I now very rarely lift with a belt sans squats both back and front. YMMV S/F Al How tall are you? Do you have a short torso? Were you using proper form? |
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5'11" Long arms/legs, average to short torso. I started to Sumo using a conventional bar for DL's after that injury. At that time I was 230lbs. S/F Al I suspect too short a torso for a 4" belt and sloppy form. At least two companies offer a 3" for just such occasions. For the record I'm rocking 5/3/1 and belt up on my prescribed weight/rep sets. No belt on warm ups. |