[ARCHIVED THREAD] - Defensive ammo question (Page 1 of 2)
Posted: 8/24/2005 5:33:57 PM EDT
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Given the difficulty in obtaining reliable supplies of effective self-defense bullets for 5.56 (witness the basic unavailability of good NATO powered 77 grain OTM and 75 OTM) and the increasing shortage of decent military supply, I am considering founding a specialty ammunition manufacturer with a colleague geared towards manufacturing the highest grade and quality self-defense oriented ammunition and selling direct to the end user (and perhaps also through one of the larger and more reliable internet retailers, though I haven't spoken with any yet). The firm would be focused on providing terminally effective ammunition for 5.56 and potentially eventually for other common calibers (7.62, 9mm, .45, etc.) All of the loads would be accompanied on the sales website with extensive gel testing and related data of the type that is often very difficult to obtain even from the "premium" manufacturers today. Really, I'm talking about a "power-user" focused ammunition shop with a strong bent towards providing customers information. How many people would be interested in purchasing ammo from such an organization? |
Especially when it comes to the pistol calibers...stick a heavy-for-caliber Gold Dot at a moderate velocity and you're bound to pass FBI/IWBA tests with flying colors, it seems. Not trying to burst your bubble, though...you've made a name for yourself in the terminal ballistics world and more power to your efforts. |
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I said, "not really", because I reload. I can make anything you can make and I can make it cheaper and in any volume I desire. The only thing you could offer to me is your legal status for my self defense ammunition. I do not use reloads for self defense ammo, not because they are unreliable but because I do not want to face any BS in court about "special ammunition". For this purpose, there are a large number of existing firms from whom I can get quality ammuinition at reasonable prices. I am not trying to rain on your parade. I'm just giving my honest opinion regarding your business concept. After all, that's what you asked for, isn't it? |
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Brou....not only would I be interested, I would sing and dance at your wedding (well, maybe not since I suck at both, but you get the picture) if you'd do so. Being saddled between buying grade 2 or 3 M193 or commercial crap, I have had the ammo blues lately. I would be greatly interested in an M193 spec load and a 77 gr OTM load using cannelured Nosler bullets (or equivalent). I would want them sealed at the primer and case mouth as well as loaded to milspec pressures using a quality low flash powder. I'd also have an interest in 9mm loaded with Ranger or Gold Dot bullets and .308 using 150 gr Nosler ballistic tips or 155 gr AMAX bullets. I wouldn't expect you to be able to compete with Wolf in prices, but if you could get into the Black Hills price and quality range, I could give a damn less about paying a few dollars more. I'd definately be in. And last, simply knowing you are involved would be all the incentive I'd need to buy from you. I know you know attention to detail and quality. I'd purchase all of my SD ammo from you. BTW, good luck in your venture. I truly hope you carry this forward. As I've said, I've been having the ammo blues now for months. All the choices are not ideal. The choices are either buying match ammo that's expensive as hell that still doesn't meet mil-specs, buying military leftovers that aren't milspec or buying underloaded commercial shit. I want to have my cake and eat it too. So again, I wish you much success in this effort, as you'd be greatly benfitting folks like me. Also, don't expect a huge number to be interested. Most people are willing to shoot crap ammo and could care less about quality and attention to detail. But those of us who do will surely keep your effort profitable and worth the trouble. The following you have will no doubt be dedicated and the ARF.commers alone will give you great business. Oh, and be sure to sell all your 5.56mm in those nifty 50 rd boxes! Please follow up with more details of your plan if you wish. I am already drolling at the notion of not being at the mercy of the govt or commercial manufacturers in what ammo I can or can't get. EDITED TO ADD: I bet you'd also have a good market among LE agencies who are also having trouble getting milspec ammo these days. -CH |
More info... |
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The main difference is, there's no ammo out there available to civilians loaded with match bullets that meet milspec velocities. Yet there is a demand. The massive group buy planned a year or two ago proved that, even though the deal fell through. The business would cater to a specialized market where there is ZERO competition. That's a recipe for success. |
+1 I have 3500 rounds of M193 put back, but with the shortage I can't bring myself to shoot it. Actually, I would rather increase my stash to around 5000-6000 rounds and would definitely consider a well documented "clone." If you could introduce some 5.56 that met our expectations, I think you would have a core customer base here @ arfcom. Hope it works out for you/us. |
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Bumped once more for the day crew. BTW, I suppose it's very obvious that I have taken a great interest to this thread. LOL. I've been suggesting for year's that some manufacturer should tap into this market, but it looks like it's gonna take one of our members to finally make that potential a reality. |
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I'd like to see some 5.56 M193, and some 75 and 77 OTM loads. Price is going to play a big factor for a lot of people though, including me. There is a point to where it's just not "worth" the extra cost to have 5.56 pressure ammo..... BTW, I voted "Definitely" b/c I'm definitely interested. |
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I'm with Charging Handle. If you can produce some M193 ammo, with sealed bullets, crimped primers, true M193 velocity, preferably more accurate than Mil-spec, I'd be all over it. I'd try out the 77gr SMKs; this would be a good excuse to get a 1/7 twist barrel. Even better would be if you can produce some 6.8mm ammo (maybe under license, don't know if you could without paying for it?). I'd be in for at least a couple cases a year. |
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I'm not sure it could be done while trying to keep prices low and quality high. If you could do it, and still retain a profit for yourself (and pay employees), I still think that you would find it difficult to meet the demands of the consumer. You start out talking about 75/77 grain ammo, and other high end SD ammo, but there are already people talking about shot gun ammo. People are talking about a box or two, or maybe a case, and to be honest, I'm not sure you could survive on peoples comments here. A case or two of ammo isn't what carries a company, its selling by the pallet. The cheaper standard loads tend to be bread and butter for companies, and its because they are selling in bulk, making it cheaper (more profit), and doing volume sales to someone other than the conusmer. My guess would be that stating you would start with 55 grain (M193 clone), a 68 grain, and the 77 grain would be the opening loads would save you headache. Trying to satisfy too many may result in helping none. Please don't get me wrong, I think the idea has merit, and I would like to think that I would buy from you, but just make sure you cover all angles so you don't lose your shirt on what seems like a good idea. |
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When I first read this thread, what immediately came to mind was Georgia Precision. They have their Canned Heat 5.56. Although I have never shot any and I cant buy any yet either (I'm under 21), for $150 a case and positive reviews from ARF members, I think I would buy from them exclusively. I dont mind using reloads as long as the stuff is quality and goes bang close to XM193 standards. If this ammunition firm was started and prices were under $200 a case for praised ammo, I would surely buy from you. Good luck! |
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I'm afraid that the price of your ammo would be out of reach for most people...at least in large quantities. Black Hills is too high for a lot of people. The mil spec stuff does well because it is manufactured in such enormous quantities that the price is lower than normal. Don't think you'd be able to compete anywhere close to their prices. If you used once fired brass you might get a decent price but then some wouldn't buy it because it's not new brass. Best of luck....if you try it I certainly hope you are successful. |
I don't believe that bullet is made anymore, which would mean we'd also have to be a bullet company too. Much easier to do (and more effective) is the 155gr AMAX. |
+1 the insurance is a bitch! Because someone WILL use some of your hot loaded ammo in a .223 chamber. Its not if, but when.. One of the major reasons im producing only the bullets and not the whole round. |