Posted: 9/23/2009 6:46:05 AM EDT
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Question for the LEOs, since I'm not one myself:
God forbid I get into a SD scenario –– I know enough that when you arrive on scene, to either holster or place the weapon on the ground and keep my hands visible. The question is, do I also have my creds out, and if so, how do I display them? (It's a long story as to why I have creds –– let's just say that my office issued them because of the line of work I'm in.) Thanks in advance for any guidance you can provide... |
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ull have plenty time to show creds if something happens..... This, cops arent trained to shoot you on sight if you're not holding some kind of paperwork in your hands when they arrive. As long as you dont point a weapon at them or do something stupid like run you should be fine. After we secure the weapon and the crime scene and get EMS and a supervisor, and backup and a photograph unit and this and that and the other thing, we will take your statement, look at your "creds" and finally laugh and joke with our partners while the local news is filming us from three blocks away  ect.
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ull have plenty time to show creds if something happens..... This, cops arent trained to shoot you on sight if you're not holding some kind of paperwork in your hands when they arrive. As long as you dont point a weapon at them or do something stupid like run you should be fine. After we secure the weapon and the crime scene and get EMS and a supervisor, and backup and a photograph unit and this and that and the other thing, we will take your statement, look at your "creds" and finally laugh and joke with our partners while the local news is filming us from three blocks away ect.This, and as long as you don't make threatening moves, or leave Wii bowling running. |
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Not a cop but from my personal research I have concluded that you should:
1) Say nothing at the crime scene. 2) Request to go to the hospital immediately. 3) Give no statement. SAY NOTHING!!! 4) Retain a lawyer and speak only when he tells you to. 5) Creds and other stuff will be taken care of at a later date. This is Jersey your talking about NOT Texas or any other state that allows their people to be armed. RW3 
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This is actually one of my pet peeves, cops tend to point their weapons at all kinds of people they have no intention of actually shooting. You should be fine 99% of the time, I would worry more about one of them having an ND than intentionally shooting me. If you've ever seen any action versus re-action drills you would know why we do this.....besides the limited amount of info we get from our dispatch. all we're going to know is we are going to a shooting....yer damned right everyone at the scene is getting proned out at gunpoint (including good guy)....its nothing personal, its just the safest way...I dont know if the person who just shot another one is a good guy or a bad guy...for the time being everyone is gonna get treated equally....believe me there will be plenty of time to sort it out later, just dont take it personal that you will be placed in handcuffs first. Unfortunantly we dont have crystal balls, and we dont know what happened prior to our arrival.....I know if I get in a shooting and I'm off duty, as soon as the cops arrive, my guns hitting the deck, my hands are in the air, and I'm gonna obey every command they give me....even when I'm getting cuffed up. After the situation calms down and people are secure, then they will get my creds and find out what I do...assuming I dont know the guys on scene 
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Not a cop but from my personal research I have concluded that you should: 1) Say nothing at the crime scene. 2) Request to go to the hospital immediately. 3) Give no statement. SAY NOTHING!!! 4) Retain a lawyer and speak only when he tells you to. 5) Creds and other stuff will be taken care of at a later date. This is Jersey your talking about NOT Texas or any other state that allows their people to be armed. RW3 I agree with this, but am curious about the hospital request. please explain, just curious. Totally understand if you are hurt in the incident. J- |
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This is actually one of my pet peeves, cops tend to point their weapons at all kinds of people they have no intention of actually shooting. You should be fine 99% of the time, I would worry more about one of them having an ND than intentionally shooting me. If you've ever seen any action versus re-action drills you would know why we do this.....besides the limited amount of info we get from our dispatch. all we're going to know is we are going to a shooting....yer damned right everyone at the scene is getting proned out at gunpoint (including good guy)....its nothing personal, its just the safest way...I dont know if the person who just shot another one is a good guy or a bad guy...for the time being everyone is gonna get treated equally....believe me there will be plenty of time to sort it out later, just dont take it personal that you will be placed in handcuffs first. Unfortunantly we dont have crystal balls, and we dont know what happened prior to our arrival.....I know if I get in a shooting and I'm off duty, as soon as the cops arrive, my guns hitting the deck, my hands are in the air, and I'm gonna obey every command they give me....even when I'm getting cuffed up. After the situation calms down and people are secure, then they will get my creds and find out what I do...assuming I dont know the guys on scene I could write paragraphs and paragraphs about how people are not paper targets used in drills, and why using a weapon as a control device is a horrid idea in both the short term and long term affects for officer safety; however......... my point is the average cop does just that. He uses it as a control device thus decreasing the chance he will actually be prepared psychologically to use if he needs to, but at the same time less likely to shoot in a situation where he doesn't know what's going on. My goal would be to do as I'm told until the officer feels warm and fuzzy and puts his smoke wagon away and hope he doesn't have an ND in that time frame. Sympathetic fire can ruin everyone's day fairly quickly. |
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This is actually one of my pet peeves, cops tend to point their weapons at all kinds of people they have no intention of actually shooting. You should be fine 99% of the time, I would worry more about one of them having an ND than intentionally shooting me. If you've ever seen any action versus re-action drills you would know why we do this.....besides the limited amount of info we get from our dispatch. all we're going to know is we are going to a shooting....yer damned right everyone at the scene is getting proned out at gunpoint (including good guy)....its nothing personal, its just the safest way...I dont know if the person who just shot another one is a good guy or a bad guy...for the time being everyone is gonna get treated equally....believe me there will be plenty of time to sort it out later, just dont take it personal that you will be placed in handcuffs first. Unfortunantly we dont have crystal balls, and we dont know what happened prior to our arrival.....I know if I get in a shooting and I'm off duty, as soon as the cops arrive, my guns hitting the deck, my hands are in the air, and I'm gonna obey every command they give me....even when I'm getting cuffed up. After the situation calms down and people are secure, then they will get my creds and find out what I do...assuming I dont know the guys on scene I could write paragraphs and paragraphs about how people are not paper targets used in drills, and why using a weapon as a control device is a horrid idea in both the short term and long term affects for officer safety; however......... my point is the average cop does just that. He uses it as a control device thus decreasing the chance he will actually be prepared psychologically to use if he needs to, but at the same time less likely to shoot in a situation where he doesn't know what's going on. My goal would be to do as I'm told until the officer feels warm and fuzzy and puts his smoke wagon away and hope he doesn't have an ND in that time frame. Sympathetic fire can ruin everyone's day fairly quickly. Not to get into a pissing contest with you, Carl, but I'm going home at the end of my shift. I don't care who gets upset, who doesn't agree, and whether I have a job when it's over. My life is more than that. The last traffic stop I made had elements of all three involved, yet I went home with an injured shoulder versus ??? Some cops use their weapon as you describe; I've seen it occasionally. Those same cops are usually the ones who don't think far enough ahead to realize they need their weapon out now, versus later. Those cops need more/better training, or just need to get out. |
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Pointing my firearm and a subject (read: potential threat/suspect) in my agency is only Level One Use of Force (Officer Presence). If I come on scene and there has already been one shooting, you're probably lucky if you're not looking at some kind of a long gun coming out... especially if it just happened!!
You don't like it, sorry. I'm going home at night and so are you if you don't do anything threatening. ETA: As for the OP, what kinda creds does your "company" issue? Bounty hunter, Security Guard, etc...??? Just curious. (It's a long story as to why I have creds –– let's just say that my office issued them because of the line of work I'm in.)
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Good for you on the long gun AJ. We started doing that on every shots fired/shooting call, and on some DV calls after some of our officer got pinned down under fire a while back.
Now Carl, a LONG gun deployed can have an intimidation factor, much more so than a pistol IME. I've never used one as such, but it does seem to gain compliance much quicker. |
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Good for you on the long gun AJ. We started doing that on every shots fired/shooting call, and on some DV calls after some of our officer got pinned down under fire a while back. Now Carl, a LONG gun deployed can have an intimidation factor, much more so than a pistol IME. I've never used one as such, but it does seem to gain compliance much quicker. I am all about getting the job done, but not at the expense of decreasing your survivability in actual shootouts. By using a firearm as a control device you are teaching yourself to hesitate. How many cops have to get shot with their own weapons before departments change policy? The answer is a lot more because doing it wrong is substantially cheaper than proper training, and most cops drink the dept. kool-aid without question. |
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ETA: As for the OP, what kinda creds does your "company" issue? Bounty hunter, Security Guard, etc...??? Just curious. Federal shield and credentials. But I'm not a LEO –– easiest way to describe what I do is the healthcare side of FEMA (even though I don't actually work for FEMA). We've been specifically told that we're not to display them unless absolutely needed, so I can't post a pic –– but it looks pretty similar to this one: http://police-badges.de/5/5-0004.jpg The full name of our department is in the top panel, our division's logo is the seal, and we only have "AGENT" in the lower panel. Quoted:
You live in NJ, your not allowed to carry a gun unless you are a cop. Im slightly confused  Relocating to PA, thanks to the wife's promotion and transfer. But my paperwork was in for the FL CCW anyways, so the plan was to carry in states that honored the FL CCW...
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This is actually one of my pet peeves, cops tend to point their weapons at all kinds of people they have no intention of actually shooting. You should be fine 99% of the time, I would worry more about one of them having an ND than intentionally shooting me. This happens to you SO FREQUENTLY that it's a PET PEEVE? Right-O. I don't see this AT ALL. What I see are guys that are so intimidated by the possibility of generating a complaint or getting sued or hurting someone's feelings, they won't even take the damn thing out of the holster until everything has gone completely to shit. And this is a HUGE MISTAKE. edit to add - OP, if you have actual DOJ creds like those, secure your weapon and have them out, in your hand, both hands high. |
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edit to add - OP, if you have actual DOJ creds like those, secure your weapon and have them out, in your hand, both hands high. I wish. They're bona fide Fed creds, just not DOJ. I only posted that pic because that is the closest resemblance to our's that I could find via open source... |
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edit to add - OP, if you have actual DOJ creds like those, secure your weapon and have them out, in your hand, both hands high. I wish. They're bona fide Fed creds, just not DOJ. I only posted that pic because that is the closest resemblance to our's that I could find via open source... I still say secure the weapon, hold up the creds, both hands high, say what outfit you're with a few times and do whatever they tell you to do. |
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So Carl, please enlighten us on the shootings, attempted weapon take aways, and negligent discharges you have been privy to.. and your credentials on psychology since you brought that up also, that would lead us to believe you actually know what you're talking about it????
And people who intend to harm you are NOT intimidated by weapons pointed at them whether it be handguns, shotguns, or rifles. Thats false security. |
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Heres my advice... keep the gun in the holster and call 911 should you see something happening.. you will thank me later for this advice. Only get involved if whats going on is an immediate threat to your life. Anythign less, call the cops and let them sort it out.
The badge you showed in the pic is what an 1811 level employee would carry..... they might look similar to what you have but an 1811 badge carries a lot more weight.. and I think a lot of agencies do a disservice to their employees with issueing these badges to civilians. I will say it again, just call 911.. it's easier. |
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Im sure you all hear advice form guys who knows this guy, whos brother met this guys father who was a cop, agent, etc, etc.
I can tell you what I have been told. I have a very good friend who is a Secret Service Agent who goes all places amred and with his Creds, we were out one day and he explained to me very serious that if we ever get into a situation where he has to draw his carry gun, that I should follow his EVERY command. He explained to me that when it was all said and done, that the local PD would be involved and that I was to do what he did, drop anything in my hand, obey all commands from the local PD until told other wise and all would be sorted out when they looked at his Identification and verifed it etc, etc. My point is, he as a senior agent in the secret service who is allowed to carry in a great many places and has been trained local PD will alway do what they are trained to do as described in this thread He takes nothing as personel, but rather as business. They dont know him from Adam, dont know if his creds are real. They see a dude with a gun. Its all business I guess. It would seem to me that if your issued these type of creds, you should have had some sort of briefing as to your powers. The carry part seems to have nothing to do with your status as an Agent for the goverment. I think you would be better served looking up the local CC laws in the state. Unless I missed a fact or two. |
As I said in my OP, this would be only if I were involved in a SD situation. I fully do NOT intend to stick my nose in areas where it doesn't belong –– that's already part of my normal daily job description. 
Unless I'm staring at the wrong end of a blade or barrel of a gun, my plan is to leave my CCW and creds in my pocket and let the local LE agency sort it out. |
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Federal shield and credentials. But I'm not a LEO –– easiest way to describe what I do is the healthcare side of FEMA (even though I don't actually work for FEMA). We've been specifically told that we're not to display them unless absolutely needed... I'm confused as to just what your "credentials" are going to have to do with a self-defense shooting. If they're not LEO creds and you're merely carrying on a CCW, then they would mean no more than any identification that might ID you as a postal worker, truckdriver, dentist, etc. "It's OK officer...I'm a healthcare administration agent for FEMA!" Quoted:
Not a cop but from my personal research I have concluded that you should: 1) Say nothing at the crime scene. 2) Request to go to the hospital immediately. 3) Give no statement. SAY NOTHING!!! 4) Retain a lawyer and speak only when he tells you to. 5) Creds and other stuff will be taken care of at a later date. So based on your "researched conclusion", you should not identify yourself, make any type of statement, or show any type of identificatioon at the scene ("taken care of at a later date")? That's going to guarantee you being arrested. |
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Federal shield and credentials. But I'm not a LEO –– easiest way to describe what I do is the healthcare side of FEMA (even though I don't actually work for FEMA). We've been specifically told that we're not to display them unless absolutely needed... I'm confused as to just what your "credentials" are going to have to do with a self-defense shooting. If they're not LEO creds and you're merely carrying on a CCW, then they would mean no more than any identification that might ID you as a postal worker, truckdriver, dentist, etc. "It's OK officer...I'm a healthcare administration agent for FEMA!" Its ok....I'm a limo driver!! |
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Its ok....I'm a limo driver!! LMAO! Quoted:
I'm confused as to just what your "credentials" are going to have to do with a self-defense shooting. To borrow a line from Spaceballs, "Absolutely nothing!" But if it helps put an LEO more at ease that I'm not going to plug him/her, as well as basically say (even more so than a CCW) that I'm not the BG, then it has value in my eyes. (Note: I did NOT say if it would put an LEO at ease, just said that if it would help an LEO be more at ease. I understand the difference.) I guess a more basic question is: do FFs and EMTs let LEOs know who they are if they're involved in a SD shooting? Does it matter to an LEO? |
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Federal shield and credentials. But I'm not a LEO –– easiest way to describe what I do is the healthcare side of FEMA (even though I don't actually work for FEMA). We've been specifically told that we're not to display them unless absolutely needed... I'm confused as to just what your "credentials" are going to have to do with a self-defense shooting. If they're not LEO creds and you're merely carrying on a CCW, then they would mean no more than any identification that might ID you as a postal worker, truckdriver, dentist, etc. "It's OK officer...I'm a healthcare administration agent for FEMA!" Quoted:
Not a cop but from my personal research I have concluded that you should: 1) Say nothing at the crime scene. 2) Request to go to the hospital immediately. 3) Give no statement. SAY NOTHING!!! 4) Retain a lawyer and speak only when he tells you to. 5) Creds and other stuff will be taken care of at a later date. So based on your "researched conclusion", you should not identify yourself, make any type of statement, or show any type of identificatioon at the scene ("taken care of at a later date")? That's going to guarantee you being arrested. Right, this was my point. If the creds do not allow for the carrying of a firearm in a job related line of duty, the reseach woudl be better spent on the CCW laws in your area. As far as it seems, your just like me. a guy with a CCW. |