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AR15.COM
9/8/2007 10:48:01 AM EDT
where can a civilian purchase dragon skin and what does it cost?
9/8/2007 2:22:14 PM EDT
[#1]
btt?
9/8/2007 2:41:40 PM EDT
[#2]

Quoted:
where can a civilian purchase dragon skin and what does it cost?


Dragon Skin website

There you go. Caveat: it is VERY cost prohibitive, but then again, it's the best available!
9/8/2007 3:43:54 PM EDT
[#3]

Quoted:

Quoted:

Quoted:
where can a civilian purchase dragon skin and what does it cost?


Dragon Skin website

There you go. Caveat: it is VERY cost prohibitive, but then again, it's the best available!


Nope



Why not?

9/8/2007 3:44:31 PM EDT
[#4]

Quoted:

Quoted:

Quoted:
where can a civilian purchase dragon skin and what does it cost?


Dragon Skin website

There you go. Caveat: it is VERY cost prohibitive, but then again, it's the best available!


Nope


+1 on the nope.
9/8/2007 3:45:09 PM EDT
[#5]
Hype.   If it was that good, the military would have adopted it on a massive scale, ideally.
9/8/2007 3:53:32 PM EDT
[#6]
www.youtube.com/watch?v=u_HRQNd84ZA&mode=related&search=
Impressive.
9/8/2007 3:54:06 PM EDT
[#7]

Quoted:
its too heavy and dosent work in hot climates ie Iraq, afghanistan

ill keep my interceptor


You can keep your interceptor if faith is what armors you.  I just want the best, lightest, most flexible armor on Earth.  Which is best?  Who really knows?  I do know that bureaucrats from DA to Natick to DOJ to NIJ are conspiring to sink Pinnacle for whatever unknown reasons (certainly open to speculation).

In any event, recent objective testing shows that Dragon Skin isn't as flawed as the Army would have you believe (as I always suspected):
July 31st Defense Watch Article (with lots of references)


9/8/2007 3:56:44 PM EDT
[#8]

Quoted:
Hype.   If it was that good, the military would have adopted it on a massive scale, ideally.


You've obviously never served!  

The miltary never buys something just because it's the best!!!  There are legions of field grade officers who have achieved good OER's based on "being good stewards of Army funds" . . . which translates to the fact that they were cheap-asses and didn't buy the troops what they really needed.  The Army has historically never spent the kind of money on Infantry equipment that they really needed to.
9/8/2007 4:01:25 PM EDT
[#9]
Quoted:
Hype.   If it was that good, the military would have adopted it on a massive scale, ideally.[/quote
Murphys combat law:
YOUR EQUIPMENT IS MADE BY THE LOWEST BIDDER
9/8/2007 4:02:13 PM EDT
[#10]

Quoted:

Quoted:
its too heavy and dosent work in hot climates ie Iraq, afghanistan

ill keep my interceptor


You can keep your interceptor if faith is what armors you.  I just want the best, lightest, most flexible armor on Earth.  Which is best?  Who really knows?  I do know that bureaucrats from DA to Natick to DOJ to NIJ are conspiring to sink Pinnacle for whatever unknown reasons (certainly open to speculation).

In any event, recent objective testing shows that Dragon Skin isn't as flawed as the Army would have you believe (as I always suspected):
July 31st Defense Watch Article (with lots of references)




The vest model with the same coverage as the interceptor weighs about 40 lbs.
9/8/2007 4:05:07 PM EDT
[#11]
www.ojp.usdoj.gov/newsroom/2007/NIJ07057.htm


FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE
Friday, August 3, 2007
http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/ Office of Justice Programs
Contact: Sheila Jerusalem
Phone: (202) 307-0703
TTY: (202) 514-1888

DEPARTMENT OF JUSTICE ANNOUNCES FINDINGS ON DRAGON SKIN BODY ARMOR

        WASHINGTON, D.C. - The Department of Justice (DOJ), Office of Justice Programs (OJP) announced today that it has determined that the Pinnacle Armor, Inc. bulletproof vest model SOV 2000.1/MIL3AF01, is not in compliance with the requirements of OJP's National Institute of Justice (NIJ) voluntary compliance testing program for bullet-resistant body armor. Effective immediately, this body armor model will be removed from the NIJ list of bullet-resistant body armor models that satisfy its requirements. Pinnacle Armor, Inc. is the maker of "dragon skin" body armor.

        NIJ, OJP's research, development, and evaluation component, has reviewed evidence provided by the body armor manufacturer and has determined that the evidence is insufficient to demonstrate that the body armor model will maintain its ballistic performance over its six-year declared warranty period.

        Notwithstanding NIJ's determination, DOJ encourages public safety officers to wear their Pinnacle Body Armor, Inc. body armor, model SOV 2000.1/MIL3AF01 until replacement because research has shown that officers are more likely to suffer a fatal injury when not wearing body armor.

        In addition, DOJ strongly recommends that public safety agencies and officers who purchase new bullet-resistant body armor verify, prior to purchase, that the body armor model appears on NIJ's list of models that comply with its most current requirements, the 2005 Interim Requirements for Bullet-Resistant Body Armor. A list of these models is available at www.justnet.org. DOJ also encourages public safety officers to follow body armor manufacturer "wear and care" instructions, and not to store armor in the trunk of their vehicle or other environments in which armor might be exposed to extreme heat or cold.

        Information about the DOJ Body Armor Safety Initiative can be found at http://vests.ojp.gov.

        The Office of Justice Programs (OJP), headed by Assistant Attorney General Regina B. Schofield, provides federal leadership in developing the nation's capacity to prevent and control crime, administer justice and assist victims. OJP has five component bureaus: the Bureau of Justice Assistance; the Bureau of Justice Statistics; the National Institute of Justice; the Office of Juvenile Justice and Delinquency Prevention; and the Office for Victims of Crime. Additionally, OJP has two program offices: the Community Capacity Development Office, which incorporates the Weed and Seed strategy, and the Sex Offender Sentencing, Monitoring, Apprehending, Registering and Tracking (SMART) Office. More information can be found at http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov.


www.military.com/features/0,15240,145380,00.html?ESRC=marine-a.nl



ustice Department Drops Dragon Skin
Stars and Stripes | Leo Shane III | August 09, 2007
WASHINGTON — Department of Justice researchers have dropped Dragon Skin body armor from their list of acceptable protective equipment for law enforcement, the latest setback for the controversial bulletproof vests.

But officials from Pinnacle Armor Inc., which makes the vests, say the move is a hasty reaction to paperwork confusion about the warranty length of the vests and believe it may have ties to the ongoing fight between the company and Army researchers over Dragon Skin's effectiveness.

"This armor doesn't fail any (Justice Department) ballistics tests, but they took it off the list anyway," Pinnacle CEO Murray Neal said. "It's something that never should have happened. We just need to get through this issue and get this armor back on these cops."

Pinnacle officials in June squared off with military researchers in a series of congressional hearings over Dragon Skin's effectiveness. An NBC report in May that the commercially available armor, made of layered plates similar to scales, performed better in independent ballistic tests than the Army's Interceptor Body Armor.

Army officials testified that Dragon Skin has failed numerous tests over the years, saying the ceramic plates fall apart after exposure to extreme heat and cold. All four services have banned use of the armor for general combat use.

According to the Justice Department, Pinnacle has not supplied enough evidence to support "that the body armor model will maintain its ballistic performance over its six-year declared warranty period," prompting its exclusion from the approved vests list.

Neal said the warranty period is longer than that of most commercial vests, and the problems arise from a dispute between company and government analysts over requirements to prove that shelf life.

He believes the company is being hampered by more red tape than other protective armor firms, in part because of the ongoing fights with military officials.

"It's a misrepresentation of who we are, and a disservice to the men and women who need this armor," he said.

Department of Justice officials did not provide comment on those allegations by press time.

Neal said several police forces have contacted the company to stop or delay orders of the body armor as a result of the move. Justice Department officials advised law enforcement officers to continue wearing the Dragon Skin body armor until replacements can be purchased, rather than go without armor.

Under service regulations released in June, sailors and Marines can receive permission from commanders to use commercial body armor such as Dragon Skin under special circumstances, as dictated by mission needs.

Army and Air Force officials have followed a similar policy in the past, but officials at U.S. Special Operations Command could not be reached for comment.



www.airforcetimes.com/news/2007/06/airforce_pinnacleban_070612/



Air Force considers ban on body armor maker

Staff report
Posted : Wednesday Jun 13, 2007 10:34:26 EDT

Air Force Materiel Command recommended Friday that the Air Force bar Pinnacle Armor Inc., the maker of Dragon Skin body armor, from signing new contracts with the U.S. government, CongressDaily reported.

Headquarters Air Force will review the recommendation and decide on a potential ban within several weeks, the report said.

The recommendation comes just days after it was revealed that the Air Force Office of Special Investigations is investigating the California-based manufacturer on allegations that it falsely claimed Dragon Skin vests were certified to a level of protection they did not possess.

Pinnacle has denied any wrongdoing.

OSI contracted to buy 590 Dragon Skin vests based on literature from and claims by the company, Douglas Thomas, executive director of OSI, testified June 6 on Capitol Hill.

The vests were delivered and fielded between October 2005 and January 2006 to deployed and deploying OSI agents, Thomas said.

Dragon Skin subsequently failed two tests conducted by the Air Force.

“In February 2006, we issued a stop order/immediate discontinue message to all our personnel, which basically says stop using them ... and send them back to headquarters,” said Capt. Christine Millette, an OSI spokeswoman.

On May 11, 2006, OSI received verification from the National Law Enforcement and Corrections Technology Center that the type of Dragon Skin vests the Air Force purchased had not been tested or certified to National Institute of Justice standards, Thomas said.

“That was a big surprise because that’s one of the reasons we purchased the vests,” he said, adding that the vests received by OSI were clearly and falsely marked NIJ Level III.


“In May 2006, OSI opened a joint criminal investigation with [Defense Criminal Investigative Service] for false [National Institute of Justice] certification on the vest and false representation of its capabilities,” Thomas said. “In June 2006, we tested the vest again. It failed.”

The claim made by Pinnacle “is a serious fraudulent claim,” said Lt. Gen. Ross Thompson, military deputy to the assistant secretary of the Army for acquisition, logistics and technology.

Meanwhile, military officials, lawmakers and industry professionals continue to debate whether Pinnacle’s vests outperform the military’s Interceptor armor.

Murray Neal, chief executive officer of Pinnacle, joined Thomas, Thompson and representatives from the other services June 6 in front of the House Armed Services Committee. Rep. Ike Skelton, D-Mo., the committee chairman, questioned Pinnacle about its claim, which was placed on the vests and dated April 14, 2006.

“I have in front of me a later letter from the Department of Justice dated Dec. 20, 2006,” Skelton said. “What I find to be interesting is that this attachment to the [body armor] is dated April 14, 2006, and the actual certification is Dec. 20, 2006. ... this is a serious discrepancy of making an assertion months before it actually came to pass.”

NIJ has a body armor testing program to “enhance the confidence of public safety agencies and officers,” said Jonathan Morgan, deputy director of the institute.

Pinnacle has submitted seven models of Dragon Skin-based armor to NIJ since May 2006, Morgan said. The company resubmitted two of the seven models after inconclusive results. Of those nine submissions, five failed to comply with NIJ standards, one passed, two were found to be inconclusive and one is pending, Morgan said.

The Army will test Dragon Skin vests — along with products from any other bidder — if the company submits its product to a request for proposals that’s open until late July, Thompson said. The Army will look at any offers from manufacturers who believe they can improve on the enhanced small-arms protective inserts and enhanced side ballistic inserts now worn by soldiers, Thompson said.

Neal said all he wants is a fair test for his product.

“The bottom line for me ... is that Dragon Skin has been verified as the best body armor in the world,” he testified. “Therefore, all we ask is for a third-party independent testing of Dragon Skin at a facility that has Office of the Secretary of Defense and Department of Testing and Evaluation oversight.”

Lawmakers grilled Neal and Philip Coyle, a senior adviser at the Center for Defense Information, about a test, commissioned by NBC TV, that the news agency said shows Dragon Skin is superior to the Interceptor armor being worn in combat. Coyle served as a witness for the NBC test.

The NBC report, which aired May 20, prompted lawmakers to call the hearing, which included witnesses from the Army, Marine Corps, Air Force and Navy.

Lawmakers called for another test to put the Dragon Skin-Interceptor debate to rest, but they did not seem convinced by Neal’s testimony. They spent more than three hours questioning him about the ability of Dragon Skin, and his assertions that a May 2006 Army test of his product was manipulated to favor Interceptor.

Coyle wasn’t spared, either. After testifying that the NBC test clearly showed Dragon Skin was superior to Interceptor, Coyle conceded, after being questioned repeatedly by Rep. Duncan Hunter, R-Calif., the committee’s ranking member, that Dragon Skin is “not ready for prime time.”

The Army — along with the other services — stands by Interceptor and the May 2006 Army test that showed Interceptor outperforming Dragon Skin, he said.

“Before the testing was halted, the Dragon Skin vest suffered 13 of 48 first- or second-round shot complete penetrations, failing four of eight initial subtests,” Thompson said. “The bottom line is that the Dragon Skin vest did not stop the bullets.”

Staff writers Michelle Tan and Erik Holmes contributed to this report.



Pinnacle Armor, Inc.
Neal, Murray
Paul Chopra

are listed in the The Excluded Parties Listing Systems (EPLS) CT Code: A1, (Proposed debarment by an agency pursuant to FAR 9.406-2 for one or more of the causes listed in FAR 9.406.2. )
9/8/2007 4:05:19 PM EDT
[#12]
i can see this argument is coming up so. let me go ahead and post this now

professionalsoldiers.com/forums/showthread.php?t=14523

9/8/2007 4:09:35 PM EDT
[#13]

Quoted:
www.youtube.com/watch?v=u_HRQNd84ZA&mode=related&search=
Impressive.


I like how he says we have thrown everything at it, 5.56, 7.62, even 9mm rounds !!
9/8/2007 4:09:55 PM EDT
[#14]

Quoted:

Quoted:
Hype.   If it was that good, the military would have adopted it on a massive scale, ideally.


You've obviously never served!  

The miltary never buys something just because it's the best!!!  There are legions of field grade officers who have achieved good OER's based on "being good stewards of Army funds" . . . which translates to the fact that they were cheap-asses and didn't buy the troops what they really needed.  The Army has historically never spent the kind of money on Infantry equipment that they really needed to.


Lowest bidder strikes again.  That said, there is no consensus at present as to whether the Dragon Skin lives up to it's rather extraordinary claims.  The hype of the marketing brings to mind such winners as BMT ammo.
9/8/2007 4:14:07 PM EDT
[#15]
The segment on Future Weapons was pretty impressive.
9/8/2007 4:16:23 PM EDT
[#16]
after reading that article i have to admit thats very impressive but 160 for 6 hours is great, however heat around that temp for 10 hours a day for a year might start to wear on the vest, but yeah im swayed, thanks
9/8/2007 4:16:27 PM EDT
[#17]

Quoted:
i can see this argument is coming up so. let me go ahead and post this now


That was all posted in May, and is therefore way outdated.

I have zero dog in this fight, other than I want to be issued the best armor.  Based on my knowledge of Army acquisition procedures, personal knowledge of the "types" that find themselves making equipment decisions for the end-user, and the resulting crap that gets issued . . . yes, I doubt that Interceptor is the best armor on the market to protect the GI.

Is Dragon Skin the best?  Maybe not, but I don't think that they're getting a fair shake.  As for the L-IV Dragon Skin (SOV-3000) weighing more than the Interceptor:  that's a red herring.  The L-III Dragon Skin (SOV-2000) provides more than adequate ballistic protection over a larger surface area than the Interceptor.  The military's requirement for L-IV protection is a way to disqualify the Dragon Skin from competition, since they damned well know that to achieve that level of protection across the entire torso will result in a very heavy vest.

As long as Dragon Skin could be (and it seems to have been) proved to resist the high temperature issues, I'd rather wear the lighter weight, full-coverage SOV-2000 (Level III) than either Interceptor or the SOV-3000.  A DShK hit is going to kill you either way.



CORRECTED VERSION: Two Dragon Skin Level IV Panels (Slightly Larger than the Standard ESAPI Plate) Took Four & Five ESAPI-FAT Specification Shots Respectively, After High Temperature Exposure/Conditioning, and Defeated Every Shot

08-01-2007

By Roger Charles

DefenseWatch has obtained results of an yet another independent technical assessment that directly refutes specious claims made at the June 6 hearing before the House Armed Services Committee that Dragon Skin failed to meet Army specifications for personal body armor at "high temperatures."

This is great news for America's Grunts, and some bad news for the Army's acquisition mafia -- Pinnacle Armor's Dragon Skin passed a recent "High Temperature" test at the Aberdeen Test Center that followed precisely the ESAPI First Article Test (FAT) protocol for extreme high temperature.

Before getting into specifics, here's the final result:

Two Dragon Skin Level IV panels (slightly larger than the standard ESAPI plate) took four & five ESAPI-FAT specification shots respectively, after high temperature exposure/conditioning, and defeated every shot.

Now for some technical details.

WHERE: Aberdeen Test Center, Aberdeen Proving Grounds, Maryland
WHEN: July 11, 2007
WHAT: High Temperature Conditioning Test
 WHY: To test Dragon Skin Level IV vests against the ESAPI Level IV
      FAT protocol for high temperature extreme.

1. Two Dragon Skin panels were subjected to this test "conditioning" protocol:

   a. Each test panel was placed in a temperature controlled space ("oven") pre-heated to 160 degrees (F), and held there for 6 hours in a vertical position. (It's important to note that the vests were NOT laid flat. Gravity was encouraged to do its work and to produce any "de-laminations" such as the ones falsely portrayed by the Army acquisition mafia to the HASC at the June 6 hearing.)

   b. Each Dragon Skin panel was removed from the oven, and the first test shot fired within 5 minutes of the vest having been taken out of the oven. (One panel was subjected to four test rounds fired within 7 minutes; the other panel received 5 test rounds within 10 minutes.)

2. Four Level IV rounds were fired in one panel, and five Level IV rounds were fired into the second panel.

   a. The rounds were level IV, 7.62mm AP rounds as defined in the ESAPI specifications.

   b. One round fired at the second panel was 5 feet per second below the minimum "strike velocity" of 2850 fps as specified for the test. This round was disallowed and was the reason for the added 5th round on this panel. A total of four shoots within the specified range -- 2850 to 2900 fps -- were counted as valid for each vest.

   c. Note that the test consisted of four rounds fired at each panel, when the Army's ESAPI (Level IV) specification requires only 2 rounds to be shot without penetration at each plate to be considered a "pass."

   d. Note also that the test shot impacts were placed within half the specified distance called for in the ESAPI protocol. These test shots were spaced from 2 5/8 inches to 3 inches from each other shot. (The ESAPI plates are tested with a spacing of 5 inches to 6 inches.)

   e. The rounds were placed so as to strike the center of a ceramic disk, the very point that Karl Masters, lead test engineer/Director for PEO-SOLDIER's body armor branch has claimed is Dragon Skin's most vulnerable point. In fact, the Army's latest Request For Proposal confirms this claim by Master's by specifying that, "For FSAPV-E [Flexible Small Arms Protective Vest-E Level] that contain multiple overlapping ceramic tiles, the "ballistically weakest point is defined as an area of the armor panel with one single thickness of ceramic tile."

       See: Paragraph 4.2.3 on page 8 of Attachment 15 -  here

   The only part of a  Dragon Skin disk that does not overlap with another disk is the center of each disk, so the Army has thus defined the "ballistically weakest point" for Dragon Skin disks as the center of the disk. It was precisely this "ballistically weakest point" that defeated all four rounds. (Note: to those of us spatially challenged, I discovered it easier to visualize the geometry involved by getting a hand full of coins and analyzing the geometrical arrangement that demonstrates this fact.)

   f. Dragon Skin defeated all shots. There were ZERO penetrations.

   g. Dragon Skin averaged the following back face deformation (BFD), measured in millimeters. Please note that for ESAPI plates the Army-specified standard is 48mm. For the Level III SAPI plates, the standard is 44mm, but that's another story.):

       (1) First panel: Average BFD = 24.05mm. (This is 50% below the ESAPI standard.)
       (2) Second panel: Average BFD = 27.80mm. (This is 42% below the ESAPI standard.)

Editor's Note: For the current RFP for Level IV protection, the Army acquisition mafia has specified a BFD for the FSAPF-E, i.e., Dragon Skin, of 43mm -- even less than that required for the SAPI plates (Level III)??? Sure hope someone in the Congress or GAO asks the Army to explain this inverted logic. If the Level IV rigid plates have a BFD standard of 48mm, one would have expected the flexible disks to have been held to the "same standard," this phrase having been Brig.Gen. Mark Brown's mantra at the June 6 HASC hearing.

DefenseWatch contacted Murray Neal, President and CEO of Pinnacle Armor to discuss the above results.

Murray said that the test items and data were archived at his facility, and that he would gladly provide the panels and data from this July 2007 ATC high temperature test for a side-by-side forensic examination/ comparison with the Dragon Skin vests from the May 2006 tests conducted for PEO-SOLDIER to prove that the armor has not changed. It was the x-rays of the 2006 tested vests which were blatantly misrepresented to the HASC on June 6. Murray mentioned the FBI forensic laboratory as one possible independent and credible laboratory that might conduct the side-by-side forensic tests for the two sets of Dragon Skin should the Army try to claim that there must have been some improvements to the Dragon Skin ballistic protection that make the July 2007 panels different from the vests tested in May 2006.

Don't think there's much chance of Pinnacle Armor's challenge to PEO-SOLDIER being accepted, but I'm eager to be surprised.
9/8/2007 4:18:19 PM EDT
[#18]
Problems supposedly come from the adhesive failing in high heat like in Iraq and Stan.

Adhesive is the only thing that holds the plates together.

Not to mention in any vehicle fire, you'd not want to worry about your armor melting while the other shit is going on.
9/8/2007 4:19:46 PM EDT
[#19]

Quoted:

Quoted:
i can see this argument is coming up so. let me go ahead and post this now


That was all posted in May, and is therefore way outdated.

<snip>



i guess you sorta stopped reading after the first three posts huh.
9/8/2007 4:25:30 PM EDT
[#20]

Quoted:
Problems supposedly come from the adhesive failing in high heat like in Iraq and Stan.

Not to mention in any vehicle fire, you'd not want to worry about your armor melting while the other shit is going on.


Check out the quoted text and link I just inserted above about the most recent Aberdeen Proving Grounds high-temperature test.

Also, in a vehicle fire, I think that if my armor is melting, the last thing that I'd be worried about it is the delamination of armor scales.
9/8/2007 4:29:28 PM EDT
[#21]

Quoted:
i guess you sorta stopped reading after the first three posts huh.


You are correct.  I just went to the last posts (most of which were from July).  The last one mentioned the NIJ decertification for 6-year warranty claims.  There is no further information given, however.

Again, I have zero bone in this fight, except that I want the best, and competition has been proven time and again as the best way to make that happen.  The .gov and .mil don't want anyone to question their decision(s) to issue Interceptor and this is another way to make that happen.
9/8/2007 4:31:22 PM EDT
[#22]
I would never judge a piece of gear based on whether or not the military uses it.

"Never forget that your weapon was made by the lowest government".
9/8/2007 4:31:48 PM EDT
[#23]

Quoted:

Quoted:

Quoted:
i can see this argument is coming up so. let me go ahead and post this now


That was all posted in May, and is therefore way outdated.

<snip>



i guess you sorta stopped reading after the first three posts huh.

this is the same army that gave up the chance to protect its vehicles from attack with a system from israel... yea... the top brass really hve the soldiers interests at heart.  its nothing but a military industrial complex way of thinking to them.  companies pay them money to use inferior products.    as far as im concerned, the top brass needs to be taken out back and shot just like congress.  
9/8/2007 4:35:00 PM EDT
[#24]

Quoted:

Quoted:
i guess you sorta stopped reading after the first three posts huh.


You are correct.  I just went to the last posts (most of which were from July).  The last one mentioned the NIJ decertification for 6-year warranty claims.  There is no further information given, however.

Again, I have zero bone in this fight, except that I want the best, and competition has been proven time and again as the best way to make that happen.  The .gov and .mil don't want anyone to question their decision(s) to issue Interceptor and this is another way to make that happen.


doesnt the army measure to a set of standards instead of one product over another?




EDIT: Isn't EVERY government contract setup in a similar manner?  the Government has a set of standards that need to be met, then potential contractors that can meet those standards bid on getting the government contract. Whichever company bids lowest for providing those standards gets the contract deal.
9/8/2007 5:43:38 PM EDT
[#25]

Quoted:
EDIT: Isn't EVERY government contract setup in a similar manner?  the Government has a set of standards that need to be met, then potential contractors that can meet those standards bid on getting the government contract. Whichever company bids lowest for providing those standards gets the contract deal.


That's generally correct.  However, what it fails to address is that the Officers and NCO's generally in charge of "acquiring" a certain piece of equipment are rarely experts in that field.  They are then the ones that write the Requirements, often by committee.  The Requirements Document can be altered to favor one or another item through pressure from senior field grade and/or general officers and SES civilians.

One example of our failed acquisitions process is the adoption of the ACU.  Our new camo pattern is a fashion statement and a cost-saving measure.  There was no rational basis for it's adoption based on the tenets of good camouflage.  Many of the features on the ACU were incorporated at the behest of REMF's who felt slighted by all of the "cool-guy" modified uniforms certain other troops were wearing.  Furthermore, those very same REMF's were successful in the near-elimination of badges and the complete eliminate of Officer Branch Insignia.
9/8/2007 5:59:27 PM EDT
[#26]

Quoted:

Quoted:
Problems supposedly come from the adhesive failing in high heat like in Iraq and Stan.

Not to mention in any vehicle fire, you'd not want to worry about your armor melting while the other shit is going on.


Check out the quoted text and link I just inserted above about the most recent Aberdeen Proving Grounds high-temperature test.

Also, in a vehicle fire, I think that if my armor is melting, the last thing that I'd be worried about it is the delamination of armor scales.


+1 in a vehicle fire the standard SAPIs and carrier are going to burn anyways.  Body armor isn't designed to save you from fire.

9/18/2007 10:02:48 AM EDT
[#27]
30 AUG 2007:  NIJ testing upholds Dragon Skin warranty

The link is to Defense Review.  Don't attack me for linking to them, it's just more information.  I don't care if DR or SFTT are the sources.  I also believe that too many people schill for the .GOV and are trying to cover up their lucrative, self-interested decisions.
9/18/2007 10:04:16 AM EDT
[#28]
Aren't dragons an endangered species?