Posted: 9/26/2025 8:55:12 AM EDT
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Mantis X Strikeman What else is out there? What do you guys that carry daily use to dry fire train from the holster? Is it worth the extra coin for holster draw analysis? |
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I'm a big fan of dry fire and dry training. Over the years I've tried pretty much everything, from lasers and dry fire mags to airsoft and Mantis. None offer the value that ordinary dry fire does. Especially devices that score "hits" because they switch your focus from building fundamentals(which never ends) to scoring hits. This is the difference between live fire and dry fire. Live fire is about the outcome on the target. It validates the mechanics of your shooting like grip and vision. The mechanics are best developed during dry fire, because all your focus is on execution instead of outcome. It would also take a lot of time and ammo to get the reps that are necessary to build hard skills. Even Delta shooters dry fire, as do USPSA champions. IMO, the best accessories for dry fire are Herr Steggler's latest book and the capacity to film yourself while practicing. A par timer is useful as long as you can control the "beat the timer" fixation that is so common. A few minutes a day, as many times a week as you can(forever) using a lot of focus and ruthless criticism of yourself is the key. |
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Quoted: I'm a big fan of dry fire and dry training. Over the years I've tried pretty much everything, from lasers and dry fire mags to airsoft and Mantis. None offer the value that ordinary dry fire does. Especially devices that score "hits" because they switch your focus from building fundamentals(which never ends) to scoring hits. This is the difference between live fire and dry fire. Live fire is about the outcome on the target. It validates the mechanics of your shooting like grip and vision. The mechanics are best developed during dry fire, because all your focus is on execution instead of outcome. It would also take a lot of time and ammo to get the reps that are necessary to build hard skills. Even Delta shooters dry fire, as do USPSA champions. IMO, the best accessories for dry fire are Herr Steggler's latest book and the capacity to film yourself while practicing. A par timer is useful as long as you can control the "beat the timer" fixation that is so common. A few minutes a day, as many times a week as you can(forever) using a lot of focus and ruthless criticism of yourself is the key. I really do appreciate the time you took to reply. But I’m going to have to disagree. I can’t imagine a world in which technology would hamper training and performance. That’s like saying that pistol mounted red dots distract from the fundamentals of front sight training. |
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I did a lot of dry fire training with a piece of zip tie stuck in my slide to keep the trigger on my Glock freely moving back and forth. I used weighted magazines for reloads. I never saw the need for the lasers or resettable triggers. Some target sillhouettes and a timer are all that's really needed for dry fire training. Ben Stoger's dry fire book was a good resource as well. |
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Quoted: I did a lot of dry fire training with a piece of zip tie stuck in my slide to keep the trigger on my Glock freely moving back and forth. I used weighted magazines for reloads. I never saw the need for the lasers or resettable triggers. Some target sillhouettes are all that's really needed for dry fire training. Ben Stoger's dry fire book was a good resource as well. |
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Quoted: Mantis X Strikeman What else is out there? What do you guys that carry daily use to dry fire train from the holster? Is it worth the extra coin for holster draw analysis? Ignore all that trash. Get a shot timer to use for par times, and a red dot so you can see what happens when you pull the trigger. Every dryfire training system is a useless gimmick. |
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I picked up a Strikefire system during the ‘Rona. I thought I’d enjoy it but 1: I didn’t and 2: I really didn’t like using an app of unknown provenance (outside “being from Strikefire”) to track how good I am or am not with a pistol. Yes my tin foil hat is tight.  I resumed doing dry-fire on my own… primarily first-shot-from-draw and mag changes. I don’t need an app for that.
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Quoted: I did a lot of dry fire training with a piece of zip tie stuck in my slide to keep the trigger on my Glock freely moving back and forth. I used weighted magazines for reloads. I never saw the need for the lasers or resettable triggers. Some target sillhouettes and a timer are all that's really needed for dry fire training. Ben Stoger's dry fire book was a good resource as well. Getting Practical Shooting Training by Stoeger/Park and training for the par times was an immediate game changer for me. Saw massive upward skill improvement as I continued to train them. |
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If a shot timer is useful for live fire, it's useful for dry fire. But, its not easy to detect dry fire without a lot of false positives from ambient noise. A lot of the dry fire training systems do actually reliably record "shots" and give you feedback. So if that data is important to you, you need a reliable way to collect it. For the OP's questions specifically, I have the Mantis X10 and the Laser Academy. I got the X10 first and it works well as a shot timer and to get you in the habit of pulling the trigger without pulling your shots. It's kind of hard to interpret the data from the holster draw analysis feature. That might change if they beef up the app to tell you what you need to improve on, so for me it's a "meh" feature for now. The Laser Academy also acts as a shot timer. I find myself using this more than the MantisX. Instead of using motion sensors, this uses your phone camera to recognize their smart targets, and then record the laser "hits" on the targets. But, the targets are reduced size and closer than they would be out on a live range (unless you buy the expensive full size targets). If you have a big blank wall, a TV or a projector screen you could project the targets to get bigger ones using a projector and the .pdf version of the targets. Because you are shooting up close on reduced size targets, the app allows you to calibrate the offset between your sight and the bore. But this offset changes if your target distance changes so remember to recalibrate. Both apps track your progress over time. If you use them, you will see improvement. If you use them once and then practice a lot without them, and then check your progress, you will also see improvement. I think the bottom line is that they aren't strictly necessary but it's fun to see the data. And I think that data can be useful to tell you what you need to work on. The biggest limitation for these is there is no trigger reset. I think that's why a lot of people don't like using them. They get tired of racking the slide between shots, and they can't practice drills that require multiple shots. I shoot DA/SA guns so that's not a problem for me. Some people will tell you training with a DAO trigger pull (which is what happens with these since there is no live shot cocking the hammer for follow up shots) is bad. Maybe they are right (for them), but if I can get good consistent DA hits on target, SA hits are a breeze (for me). So with a DA/SA, DAO or revolver, (or one of those expensive triggger reset magazines for glocks) you can practice drills with multiple shots in dry fire. Another thing is that they have "courses" you can complete in the apps, but these are VERY easy with even a modicum of shooting ability and they may give you an outsized opinion of your abilities. The competitive shooters will tell you to go shoot a match, and you absolutely should. It will give you an idea where you stack up against old retired guys, young moms, tactical larpers, etc. Except the competitive shooters will work in a douchebag statement like, "Go shoot a match to find out how much you suck" because they just can't help themselves. Someone will be along to trash everything I said here, and they will say that my opinion carries no weight because I don't have a competition scoring record to prove the value of my opinion. But, I offer this info as a user of 2 of the dry fire systems you asked about, and the good faith assertion that this has been my honest experience with them. |
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Quoted: I really do appreciate the time you took to reply. But I'm going to have to disagree. I can't imagine a world in which technology would hamper training and performance. That's like saying that pistol mounted red dots distract from the fundamentals of front sight training. Quoted: Quoted: I'm a big fan of dry fire and dry training. Over the years I've tried pretty much everything, from lasers and dry fire mags to airsoft and Mantis. None offer the value that ordinary dry fire does. Especially devices that score "hits" because they switch your focus from building fundamentals(which never ends) to scoring hits. This is the difference between live fire and dry fire. Live fire is about the outcome on the target. It validates the mechanics of your shooting like grip and vision. The mechanics are best developed during dry fire, because all your focus is on execution instead of outcome. It would also take a lot of time and ammo to get the reps that are necessary to build hard skills. Even Delta shooters dry fire, as do USPSA champions. IMO, the best accessories for dry fire are Herr Steggler's latest book and the capacity to film yourself while practicing. A par timer is useful as long as you can control the "beat the timer" fixation that is so common. A few minutes a day, as many times a week as you can(forever) using a lot of focus and ruthless criticism of yourself is the key. I really do appreciate the time you took to reply. But I'm going to have to disagree. I can't imagine a world in which technology would hamper training and performance. That's like saying that pistol mounted red dots distract from the fundamentals of front sight training. That in itself is incorrect. The issue becomes twofold: First, you are replacing a fundamental process training method with an outcome based method, but one that doesn't teach you what either dry fire or live fire does. So it doesn't do what either does in terms of skill building. Live fire/dry fire drive each other and serve as a check on each other by balancing process and outcome. Grip gets sloppy in dry fire? Doubles or Bills in live fire will lay that bare. Then there is the issue of the time budget. Whatever time you have for dry fire is absorbed by whatever time you spend on the device. I'm glad you mentioned dots(I just assumed) because unlike lasers, BBs, trigger resetting mags, or even .22 trainers, dots actually coach you on process. You get so much visual information from a dot(vice irons) that it basically yells at you when you fail to execute. A dot would be worth it for someone who carries an iron sighted gun, even if they are still shooting front sight focus. Again, Ben Stoeger's videos(all over YouTube) and books are highly recommended. I would also recommend Steve Anderson's books and podcasts. |
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Quoted: If a shot timer is useful for live fire, it's useful for dry fire. But, its not easy to detect dry fire without a lot of false positives from ambient noise. A lot of the dry fire training systems do actually reliably record "shots" and give you feedback. So if that data is important to you, you need a reliable way to collect it. You dont use the shot timer to detect anything in dryfire. You use it for par times. Your obsession with pulling a reset trigger in dryfire is only hurting you. |
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I've used a lot of systems, StrikeMan and Mantis especially. I run the Mantis blackbeard on my rifle and that's a good system. For pistol, I found that trigger time was the best with the SIRT pistols as there's no slide manipulation. To make it more realistic, I bought a green gas airsoft G19 to practice with in the garage. My draws improved a lot with the airsoft setup. Most recently I bought the Meta Quest goggles with the ACE VR system and that has translated to better shooting on the range. Find a system that works for you and make it a priority to get XX amount of trigger pulls or minutes in a week and you should see improvements. |
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ACE VR is pretty expensive but very good imo. Its changed the way I attack stages. With two kids coming online and starting to compete, it's a good filler for cutting down on ammo costs and giving them something more entertaining. It has its limitations, but worth the cost. I wish I had gotten it sooner. |
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Quoted: ACE VR is pretty expensive but very good imo. Its changed the way I attack stages. With two kids coming online and starting to compete, it's a good filler for cutting down on ammo costs and giving them something more entertaining. It has its limitations, but worth the cost. I wish I had gotten it sooner. And you can shoot with all your internet friends. |
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Quoted: If a shot timer is useful for live fire, it's useful for dry fire. But, its not easy to detect dry fire without a lot of false positives from ambient noise. A lot of the dry fire training systems do actually reliably record "shots" and give you feedback. So if that data is important to you, you need a reliable way to collect it. For dry fire I just like using the par time. The time doesn't need to pick anything up, just gives you a 1 second or whatever for that 2nd beep. |
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Quoted: You dont use the shot timer to detect anything in dryfire. You use it for par times. Your obsession with pulling a reset trigger in dryfire is only hurting you. |
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Quoted: Of what use is a par timer if the shot doesn't hit the target? I can get really fast looking par times if I don't give a shit about A zone hits. When you care about where the hits go, the par times slow down considerably. But you only learn this by live fire, or using something that can record where your dry fire shots are hitting. If you're training for speed, you necessarily give up some shot accountability in the pursuit of normalizing a faster speed. As long as you can perceive where the sights or the dot were when you pressed the trigger, it is fine. That's like saying "I shot my first sub 2 second bill drill, but there was a delta, so I'm trash." No, you shot your first sub 2 second bill drill. That is a win, now take the new normalized speed and figure out the accountability. |
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Quoted: I just use a folded bit of index card on the breech face, keeping the slide slightly out of battery. Yes, the trigger is mush, but I don't have to cycle the slide constantly. It's good enough. I normally use the wrapper from a lens wipe because it's free trash and the correct thickness. |
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Quoted: https://i.imgur.com/ZuKGdD5.jpeg This is all you need to make USPSA Grand Master. Gun, Belt rig, timer, full weight dummy rounds, scaled targets. Don't make fun of the poverty rig, it's the off season and It's time for Glock things instead of my normal Shadow 2. Are the dummy rounds just for weighting the magazine? |
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Quoted: Poverty rig? I feel attacked. Are the dummy rounds just for weighting the magazine? My Shadow 2 rig is like $650 if you add up everything at MSRP (I did get .mil discounts on some of it): Dominate Defense Mach 1 belt, GX Vice Holster, Henning T-1000 Hanger and T-900 magnetic mag pouch, 2x DAA Racer mag pouches, and a DAA magnet. ETA I'll probably replace the holster this season because it's getting worn out |
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Quoted: Yes. Reloads don't feel right if the mag is empty. My Shadow 2 rig is like $650 if you add up everything at MSRP (I did get .mil discounts on some of it): Dominate Defense Mach 1 belt, GX Vice Holster, Henning T-1000 Hanger and T-900 magnetic mag pouch, 2x DAA Racer mag pouches, and a DAA magnet. ETA I'll probably replace the holster this season because it's getting worn out Quoted: Quoted: Poverty rig? I feel attacked. Are the dummy rounds just for weighting the magazine? My Shadow 2 rig is like $650 if you add up everything at MSRP (I did get .mil discounts on some of it): Dominate Defense Mach 1 belt, GX Vice Holster, Henning T-1000 Hanger and T-900 magnetic mag pouch, 2x DAA Racer mag pouches, and a DAA magnet. ETA I'll probably replace the holster this season because it's getting worn out My belt setup is entry level Black Scorpion/Dara stuff, Masada 9. Hopefully it'll be fine for a few years, maybe I can reward myself after a level 2 match bump or something in the future. |
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Quoted: Haven't heard anyone recommend the dummy rounds, so I never thought about it, but the logic checks out. My belt setup is entry level Black Scorpion/Dara stuff, Masada 9. Hopefully it'll be fine for a few years, maybe I can reward myself after a level 2 match bump or something in the future. DAA belt, BOSS hanger, Comptac holster, DAA Racer pouches (the 2 I'm still using I bought in 2016, they're still fine. Ghost before that, didn't like them because I don't like the way they present the mag left handed). I just upgraded a piece at a time here and there until I was happy. |
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Quoted: https://i.imgur.com/ZuKGdD5.jpeg This is all you need to make USPSA Grand Master. Gun, Belt rig, timer, full weight dummy rounds, scaled targets. Don't make fun of the poverty rig, it's the off season and It's time for Glock things instead of my normal Shadow 2. 
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Quoted: Of what use is a par timer if the shot doesn't hit the target? I can get really fast looking par times if I don't give a shit about A zone hits. When you care about where the hits go, the par times slow down considerably. But you only learn this by live fire, or using something that can record where your dry fire shots are hitting. Quoted: Quoted: You dont use the shot timer to detect anything in dryfire. You use it for par times. Your obsession with pulling a reset trigger in dryfire is only hurting you. You have to be able to call your shots. That is 100% a necessity in becoming a good shooter. Knowing where your sights are when that trigger breaks (or would break when working a dead trigger in dry fire) is a critical skill. They even teach it at boot camp for the Marines as part of the basics of learning how to shoot... they do it while "snapping in"... which is dry fire. It is confirmed in livefire by drawing in a logbook where your expected impact is. You call your shots... thats how you know if the hit was good or not. |
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I have the Mantis Laser Academy. The phone app is a bit of a PITA, but it does help. I have it installed on an old android phone dedicated to all the modern devices that need an app to run. I have pistol inserts and one for 556, though I haven't used the 556 after trying it out for a week. Reason being, I don't really have a good place to utilize it in my house. For the past year or so, I've just been running drills w/o the app, as I can set multiple targets up at different distances / angles. For me, it's not as good as range practice, but much better than just dry fire. |
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Quoted: Of what use is a par timer if the shot doesn't hit the target? I can get really fast looking par times if I don't give a shit about A zone hits. When you care about where the hits go, the par times slow down considerably. But you only learn this by live fire, or using something that can record where your dry fire shots are hitting. Quoted: Quoted: You dont use the shot timer to detect anything in dryfire. You use it for par times. Your obsession with pulling a reset trigger in dryfire is only hurting you. You're training your eyes to watch the sight as much as your muscles to do what you want them to. If you are dry firing and not knowing where the front site is when you "shoot", you're doing it wrong. |
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Quoted: You're training your eyes to watch the sight as much as your muscles to do what you want them to. If you are dry firing and not knowing where the front site is when you "shoot", you're doing it wrong. I can put a full size target 10 feet away and get par times that I am satisfied with. Push that out to 7 yards and "nope". On the other hand at 7 yards I can get all A zone hits in a Bill drill easily. But only at embarrassingly slow par times. |
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Quoted: Well that's what I said before. The faster I go, the less accurate I am. I'm running up against physical limitations here that I don't think its possible to train past them. I can put a full size target 10 feet away and get par times that I am satisfied with. Push that out to 7 yards and "nope". On the other hand at 7 yards I can get all A zone hits in a Bill drill easily. But only at embarrassingly slow par times. Quoted: Quoted: You're training your eyes to watch the sight as much as your muscles to do what you want them to. If you are dry firing and not knowing where the front site is when you "shoot", you're doing it wrong. I can put a full size target 10 feet away and get par times that I am satisfied with. Push that out to 7 yards and "nope". On the other hand at 7 yards I can get all A zone hits in a Bill drill easily. But only at embarrassingly slow par times. Go with what SV650 suggested then. Stop worrying about A zone hits and focus purely on speed. Anything on target, consider it good. Once you're getting the speed you want, start incorporating accuracy back into it. |
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Quoted: Go with what SV650 suggested then. Stop worrying about A zone hits and focus purely on speed. Anything on target, consider it good. Once you're getting the speed you want, start incorporating accuracy back into it. It's basically 2 legs walking. You can't move both at the same time. Work on speed, taking a step forward then bring back accuracy taking another step forward. This assumes you're able to call shots and you're going a speed that you can comprehend what the effect on target is, but you're going at a speed that you're unable to correct it in the moment. |
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Quoted: Mantis X Strikeman What else is out there? What do you guys that carry daily use to dry fire train from the holster? Is it worth the extra coin for holster draw analysis? I taught a lot of remedial shooters using the Beamhit system. The shooter shoots at a TV screen with reactive targets. We would use blanks sometimes. There are some that even use air to simulate the recoil. The smaller systems are pretty inexpensive these days. The cheapest is around $120. |
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I highly recommend the Mantis Blackbeard for force on force training. It’s like $200 and you get to use your trigger and optic. Mantis Blackbeard |
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Quoted: Literally every single high end shooting instructor approaches it this way. It's basically 2 legs walking. You can't move both at the same time. Work on speed, taking a step forward then bring back accuracy taking another step forward. This assumes you're able to call shots and you're going a speed that you can comprehend what the effect on target is, but you're going at a speed that you're unable to correct it in the moment. Quoted: Quoted: Go with what SV650 suggested then. Stop worrying about A zone hits and focus purely on speed. Anything on target, consider it good. Once you're getting the speed you want, start incorporating accuracy back into it. It's basically 2 legs walking. You can't move both at the same time. Work on speed, taking a step forward then bring back accuracy taking another step forward. This assumes you're able to call shots and you're going a speed that you can comprehend what the effect on target is, but you're going at a speed that you're unable to correct it in the moment. As biased as hit factor scoring is to speed, how unbalanced do things need to be to work on the 2nd step? |
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Quoted: As biased as hit factor scoring is to speed, how unbalanced do things need to be to work on the 2nd step? If you can shoot a 5" offhand group at 25 yards untimed, you're doing pretty good, unless you're going to area/national championships and expecting to be competitive. It gets a little more sporty at higher level matches (i.e. 30-40 yard partials at 2024 Carry Optics Nationals). I still work on Trigger Control at Speed, One Shot Return, Doubles, and Practical Accuracy frequently to ensure I'm not moving the gun at speed. |
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Quoted: I really do appreciate the time you took to reply. But I’m going to have to disagree. I can’t imagine a world in which technology would hamper training and performance. That’s like saying that pistol mounted red dots distract from the fundamentals of front sight training. Data from a Mantis is useless at best and detrimental at worst. All you need for dry fire is a shot timer, the gun and some targets. Watching the sights or dot will give you every bit of information you need. |
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Quoted: Of what use is a par timer if the shot doesn't hit the target? I can get really fast looking par times if I don't give a shit about A zone hits. When you care about where the hits go, the par times slow down considerably. But you only learn this by live fire, or using something that can record where your dry fire shots are hitting. This is false. You can run speed mode in dry fire and know exactly where your hits are. |
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Quoted: Data from a Mantis is useless at best and detrimental at worst. All you need for dry fire is a shot timer, the gun and some targets. Watching the sights or dot will give you every bit of information you need. Being aware of the sights or dot behavior, specifically when the shot breaks, will give you every bit of information you need. I don't want to encourage people to stare at their dot, but I also know what you mean. |
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Quoted: Completely agree with you, but I just want to make a finer point on your last sentence Being aware of the sights or dot behavior, specifically when the shot breaks, will give you every bit of information you need. I don't want to encourage people to stare at their dot, but I also know what you mean. You’re correct and good clarification. The shooter can be target focused and still be aware of what the dot or sights are doing. |
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Quoted: Well that's what I said before. The faster I go, the less accurate I am. I'm running up against physical limitations here that I don't think its possible to train past them. I can put a full size target 10 feet away and get par times that I am satisfied with. Push that out to 7 yards and "nope". On the other hand at 7 yards I can get all A zone hits in a Bill drill easily. But only at embarrassingly slow par times. Quoted: Quoted: You're training your eyes to watch the sight as much as your muscles to do what you want them to. If you are dry firing and not knowing where the front site is when you "shoot", you're doing it wrong. I can put a full size target 10 feet away and get par times that I am satisfied with. Push that out to 7 yards and "nope". On the other hand at 7 yards I can get all A zone hits in a Bill drill easily. But only at embarrassingly slow par times. A bill drill isn't something I ever practiced with dry fire. Multiple trigger pills while controlling recoil is something, IMO, better done with live fire. |
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Quoted: A bill drill isn't something I ever practiced with dry fire. Multiple trigger pills while controlling recoil is something, IMO, better done with live fire. Correct. Dealing with recoil is the only difference between dry fire and live fire. (Unless you want to count dealing with real malfunctions hehe) |
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Quoted: ACE VR is pretty expensive but very good imo. Its changed the way I attack stages. With two kids coming online and starting to compete, it's a good filler for cutting down on ammo costs and giving them something more entertaining. It has its limitations, but worth the cost. I wish I had gotten it sooner. This I love it |
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Quoted: A bill drill isn't something I ever practiced with dry fire. Multiple trigger pills while controlling recoil is something, IMO, better done with live fire. |
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I want one of these Ace virtual shooting setups. You use an Oculus and they have controllers that feel like several popular pistols. https://www.acexr.com/ |
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Quoted: I want one of these Ace virtual shooting setups. You use an Oculus and they have controllers that feel like several popular pistols. https://www.acexr.com/ We had a pretty long thread on it here. May be archived now. Several of us would get together and shoot matches in the evenings. It was a lot of fun and IMO it is a viable supplement to dry fire. As I’ve mentioned previously, I crashed into a pile of equipment in my shop while running a stage and broke my pinky, that was enough for me to get rid of it lol. But it is useful, and fun. |