Posted: 2/7/2004 1:14:09 PM EDT
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What's your opinions on running nitrous without using forged pistons. I'm building a 300 I6 right now and couldn't find forged pistons so I went with Hypereutectic. I'd like to add boost but not at the expense of a ruined piston. Also, I'm eyeing Comp Cams Pro Magnum Roller Rockers, they don't offer these for the 300 I6 but I've read accounts where Big Block Chevy Valve train components have been made to fit the Ford 300. Anyone have any experience with this? Thanks. |
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So many questions and so little time. Why do ya wanna run nitrous on a Ford I6, they arent HP motors, jus like ya cant shine a turd. Yes , you CAN run nitrous without having forged pistons, jus add the required amount of fuel, run 1-2 steps colder on the plugs and dont activate under 2500rpm. Also have safety switches on the nitrous system, like if ya loose fuel pressure, etc. The I6 is known for its realiability and longevity. but not known for horsepower. If this is a daily driver or street car, dealing with Nitrous will be a pain,. I have run it in street cars. It goes fast, and ya only have the extra power that is in the bottle. If ya really wanted to do something more reliable and always there , add a turbo kit, its not as hard ya think, it doesnt even have to be intercooled jus to add simplicity. |
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Quoted: So many questions and so little time. Why do ya wanna run nitrous on a Ford I6, they arent HP motors, jus like ya cant shine a turd. 7 main bearings and to do something different. I also like the idea of an inline engine. Balanced, smooth and more torque than a comparable bent crack engine. The I6 is a decent torque motor and is basically the same displacement as the 302 so I wouldn't agree with the turd comment. [:D] It will be in a puller truck. I'm not worried about HP, I want low end torque for pulling, not sled pulling but truck vs. truck pulling. I'll be running with trucks in the same weight class so I won't be up against dually deisels. Yes , you CAN run nitrous without having forged pistons, jus add the required amount of fuel, run 1-2 steps colder on the plugs and dont activate under 2500rpm. Also have safety switches on the nitrous system, like if ya loose fuel pressure, etc. Would an MSD box help with the plugs? 2500 rpm would be what I expect to launch at but I won't know where the best torque lies until I finish the engine. I'm in the process of lining up parts now. The I6 is known for its realiability and longevity. but not known for horsepower. If this is a daily driver or street car, dealing with Nitrous will be a pain,. I have run it in street cars. It goes fast, and ya only have the extra power that is in the bottle. If ya really wanted to do something more reliable and always there , add a turbo kit, its not as hard ya think, it doesnt even have to be intercooled jus to add simplicity. Hmmm turbo. Would I need a special head or could I retrofit using the stock setup. I will have an extra engine so I could play with the head off that. Also, I'm going carbed, will a turbo as well with a carbed engine? |
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Quoted: You do know about [url]http://www.inliners.org/[/url], right? 300L6, huh? Sounds like a cool idea. No I didn't, I've been researching mostly at www.fordsix.com. Thanks for the heads up. I'm happy with the inline so far in stock form and can't wait to see how far I can take the concept of building one up. |
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I've never even seen a 300 I-6 disassembled. In fact, I've never seen one that was worn out! I'd leave it alone and enjoy the longevity. If you want to make horsepower or torque, get a 460. To each his own though. If you are going to use a lot of nitrous boost, get forged pistons and make sure to add enough fuel. Smaller amounts of juice shouldn't need much if any enhancement of the basic 300, so long as you don't let it run lean while using the bottle. Make sure your u-joints are healthy! |
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Ah yes, the old dependable 300 CID I-6 (aka 4.9L I-6) I never knew about the ford six site mentioned above, but now they're bookmarked.... But did you look here: [url]http://www.cliffordperformance.com/[/url] Cliffords has lots of parts for inline engines. You can turbo anything. Look here: [/url]http://www.turbocity.com/[/url] Look for their "generic" turbo set up drawings. It shows how to put a turbo on any motor and how and what parts are needed. Turbo for a carbed I-6? No problem? Fuel injected? No problem. Some even say run forged pistons when you put a turbo, but it can be ran w/ the stock, if the boost isn't too much... just watch the exahust temps, so I have read. To give a better example of a turbo carb engine.... incase you can't find the pics. The turbo is added after the exhaust manifold. It is put on the exaust pipe, so you can run the same exhaust manifold. A "J" shaped pipe is put on the manifold (if using stock exhaust), then the turbo. Then an adapter is made to connect the turbo to the exaust pipe (and the wast gate plumbing also). For a carb engine, the drawings I downloade before showed two ways to do it. One had a special adapter that went inbetween the carb and manifold, if I recall correctly. And the other version showed the turbo blowing into the carb (like a blower). Air is sucked in to the filter, goes through the turbo and an adapter put on the carb channels the air from the turbo to the carb (like a blower). I would disagree w/ anyone who calls the I-6 a turd. They are well built motors. I have one in my 83 F-150 and it has 140,000 miles on it (farm truck) with a C6 and 3.55 rears. Lots of ideling, oil leaks off the pan and rocker arm covers, but doesn't burn oil (yet, knock on wood). A friend had a 88 F-150 that had 240,000 miles on it (stock, no rebuilding, all original) and it's a 4x4 w/ a 4 speed manual and a 3.08 rear. Only prob he had before he "parted" w/ it was the timing gears.... and it wasn't his idea to part (part as in leave truck, not sell peice by peice) w/ it...long story. Big semi trucks are all using turboed I-6 diesels. They are geared to run right about max torque and or max HP give or take a few 100 rpms. If you gear a gas I-6 correctly, it will be fine. Using the power you have in a motor correctly just doesn't mean mating it up to any tranny... the tranny and rear end has to be matched to the engine... so that the power curve is correct. Example, a buddy who worked for Cat got complaints from a customer that the "truck" wasn't pulling right, was weak or slow. Well, a dyno showed the engine was putting out the power, it's just that the auto tranny wasn't shifting at the right engine RPMS to use that power. I don't know much about nitrus, but how big of a "shot" are you planning/wanting to run? A mild HP gain of under 50HP???? There are lots of kits out there now for nitrus. Most are computer controled and have sensors you add so that you can't blow the engine....(aka idiot proof). Clifford has kits to build the sixes.... but it looks like you have bought parts already. When I plan to redo my six, I'm gonna look hard into the Clifford parts. |
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Quoted: I've never even seen a 300 I-6 disassembled. In fact, I've never seen one that was worn out! Donor truck was bought and engine pulled about two months ago. Engine had been rebuilt 20,000 miles ago and showed very little wear. [img]http://home.woh.rr.com/picturesandstuff/Pullit13.jpg[/img] [img]http://home.woh.rr.com/picturesandstuff/Pullit19.jpg[/img] [img]http://home.woh.rr.com/picturesandstuff/Pullit20.jpg[/img] I'd leave it alone and enjoy the longevity. If you want to make horsepower or torque, get a 460. To each his own though. If you are going to use a lot of nitrous boost, get forged pistons and make sure to add enough fuel. Smaller amounts of juice shouldn't need much if any enhancement of the basic 300, so long as you don't let it run lean while using the bottle. Make sure your u-joints are healthy! U-joints are bought and waiting for ring and pinions for both axles to come in sometime next week, then they'll be installed. I'm trying to figure out the valve train and whether I can safely add N2O. |
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Quoted: Ah yes, the old dependable 300 CID I-6 (aka 4.9L I-6) I never knew about the ford six site mentioned above, but now they're bookmarked.... But did you look here: [url]http://www.cliffordperformance.com/[/url] Cliffords has lots of parts for inline engines. You can turbo anything. Look here: [/url]http://www.turbocity.com/[/url] Look for their "generic" turbo set up drawings. It shows how to put a turbo on any motor and how and what parts are needed. Turbo for a carbed I-6? No problem? Fuel injected? No problem. Some even say run forged pistons when you put a turbo, but it can be ran w/ the stock, if the boost isn't too much... just watch the exahust temps, so I have read. I would disagree w/ anyone who calls the I-6 a turd. They are well built motors. I have one in my 83 F-150 and it has 140,000 miles on it (farm truck) with a C6 and 3.55 rears. Lots of ideling, oil leaks off the pan and rocker arm covers, but doesn't burn oil (yet, knock on wood). A friend had a 88 F-150 that had 240,000 miles on it (stock, no rebuilding, all original) and it's a 4x4 w/ a 4 speed manual and a 3.08 rear. Only prob he had before he "parted" w/ it was the timing gears.... and it wasn't his idea to part (part as in leave truck, not sell peice by peice) w/ it...long story. Big semi trucks are all using turboed I-6 diesels. They are geared to run right about max torque and or max HP give or take a few 100 rpms. If you gear a gas I-6 correctly, it will be fine. Using the power you have in a motor correctly just doesn't mean mating it up to any tranny... the tranny and rear end has to be matched to the engine... so that the power curve is correct. Example, a buddy who worked for Cat got complaints from a customer that the "truck" wasn't pulling right, was weak or slow. Well, a dyno showed the engine was putting out the power, it's just that the auto tranny wasn't shifting at the right engine RPMS to use that power. I don't know much about nitrus, but how big of a "shot" are you planning/wanting to run? A mild HP gain of under 50HP???? There are lots of kits out there now for nitrus. Most are computer controled and have sensors you add so that you can't blow the engine....(aka idiot proof). Clifford has kits to build the sixes.... but it looks like you have bought parts already. When I plan to redo my six, I'm gonna look hard into the Clifford parts. Clifford offers quite a selection but at a premium price. Their rockers are stated only for pre '79 heads. The donor engine was an '84. I'm gearing both axles at 4.10-4.11 so I should be ok there. I'd like to be able to provide at least 100HP with the nitrous. Anything less would seem like a waste of time. I've looked into the MSD boxes and their rev limiting capabilities. That seems like the way to go for some extra protection and they aren't too hard on the wallet. |
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Quoted: I'm trying to figure out the valve train and whether I can safely add N2O. If you think you're going to be revving the engine beyond normal levels, stiffer valve springs are helpful. A lot depends on how much nitrous enhancement you are planning. If you're just going to use a little the stock engine should have no problem. If you give it a heavy shot, then all kinds of things need to be considered. Also, I'm a Mopar guy so take my knowledge of the 300 with that in mind. It is a real mule of an engine though. Probably the main concern is detonation if it leans out. The hypereutectic pistons will take more abuse in that respect than stock cast pistons, but again if you plan to really rev the engine then you need to consider piston weight as well. Hypereutectic pistons are definately heavy, and any heavy piston takes its toll on rods and rod bolts. The 300 isn't really known as a high RPM engine (quite the opposite) due to its long stroke. That also makes piston weight a factor. Which N2O kit are you considering? |
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Quoted: Quoted: I'm trying to figure out the valve train and whether I can safely add N2O. If you think you're going to be revving the engine beyond normal levels, stiffer valve springs are helpful. A lot depends on how much nitrous enhancement you are planning. If you're just going to use a little the stock engine should have no problem. If you give it a heavy shot, then all kinds of things need to be considered. Also, I'm a Mopar guy so take my knowledge of the 300 with that in mind. It is a real mule of an engine though. Probably the main concern is detonation if it leans out. The hypereutectic pistons will take more abuse in that respect than stock cast pistons, but again if you plan to really rev the engine then you need to consider piston weight as well. Hypereutectic pistons are definately heavy, and any heavy piston takes its toll on rods and rod bolts. The 300 isn't really known as a high RPM engine (quite the opposite) due to its long stroke. That also makes piston weight a factor. Which N2O kit are you considering? I haven't spec'd any to great detail, I have seen one that offers 250HP but without forged pistons I thought that would be too much. As easy as it is to bolt on the N2O kits I can wait till the engine is assembled and add that on later if it is doable. Higher than normal RPMs is the reason I would like to use the Comp Pro Magnum Rollers. They're one of the few steel offerings I can find. I'm also looking at Comps conical springs. I have all the parts I need for the bottom. I ordered rod and main bearings today. |
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Quoted: A 250 HP kit is HUGE. That will nearly double the engine's output. Build accordingly! Roger that. A 100 Hp kit would seem more in order. Stock, these engines were in the 120 HP range and 220 ft-lbs. Based on what numbers I have seen from similar builds with the 300 I'm hoping for somewhere in the neighborhood of 375 ft-lbs and 275 HP when all is said and done not including boost. |
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Quoted: Quoted: A 250 HP kit is HUGE. That will nearly double the engine's output. Build accordingly! Roger that. A 100 Hp kit would seem more in order. Stock, these engines were in the 120 HP range and 220 ft-lbs. Based on what numbers I have seen from similar builds with the 300 I'm hoping for somewhere in the neighborhood of 375 ft-lbs and 275 HP when all is said and done not including boost. I'm not quite sure where you got those numbers. 120HP and 220 ft/lbs torque.... that is way low... unless you are quoting what gets to the wheels. Granted, the older engine rating system was based on Gross HP and torque at the engine (or the rating was brake horsepower). One of my old Chilton manuals listed the early 70's 300I6 as 165HP and 294ft/lbs torque... I'm really interested in what you are doing. And would love to hear updates on how the project goes in the future. At some point my 300-I6 will need to be "rebuilt"..... hoping to make 175,000 miles first though (but being a farm truck, little milage put on, be luck if that happens in the next 5 years). |
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Quoted: Quoted: hoping to make 175,000 miles first though . HA I had over 225k on my '81 before some drunk decided to give it a facelift and it was still going strong... sure she leak shit out of every possible hole.. but she was good to me [:D] A friend of mine has an `81 F150 4x4 with 450k miles and counting. The only piece of the truck that hasn't needed work is the 300 engine. It doesn't burn oil, idles smoothly, and runs strong. The rest of the truck looks like it's ready for the dump, but it just keeps on going. |
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Quoted: Quoted: hoping to make 175,000 miles first though . HA I had over 225k on my '81 before some drunk decided to give it a facelift and it was still going strong... sure she leak shit out of every possible hole.. but she was good to me [:D] Sounds about like my favorite inline 6, the Mopar Leaning Tower Of Power /6. I swear those things must be undead, you about have to drive a wooden stake thru its heart to kill one. |
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Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: A 250 HP kit is HUGE. That will nearly double the engine's output. Build accordingly! Roger that. A 100 Hp kit would seem more in order. Stock, these engines were in the 120 HP range and 220 ft-lbs. Based on what numbers I have seen from similar builds with the 300 I'm hoping for somewhere in the neighborhood of 375 ft-lbs and 275 HP when all is said and done not including boost. I'm not quite sure where you got those numbers. 120HP and 220 ft/lbs torque.... that is way low... unless you are quoting what gets to the wheels. Granted, the older engine rating system was based on Gross HP and torque at the engine (or the rating was brake horsepower). One of my old Chilton manuals listed the early 70's 300I6 as 165HP and 294ft/lbs torque... I'm really interested in what you are doing. And would love to hear updates on how the project goes in the future. At some point my 300-I6 will need to be "rebuilt"..... hoping to make 175,000 miles first though (but being a farm truck, little milage put on, be luck if that happens in the next 5 years). Those numbers are RWHP. I'd be happy to post updates, I'm excited as this is my first motorhead project and this isn't one of the typical motorhead engines to be rebuilt. If I had a dollar for each time I've been asked why I wanted to rebuild and hop up an I6, I could buy some more parts.[:D] |
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Quoted: [url]http://fordsix.com/forum/index.php?sid=602bb4e72227757937726f613225c1f8[/url] didn,t read the whole thread but for ford I-6 here is a good place for your questions. Excellent place for info. Thanks There are a few people there doing some Amazing things with the I6. [img]http://www3.sympatico.ca/big-d/Bob.jpg[/img] |
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Quoted: Want to talk about something different? I am in the process of building one of these. [url]http://www.gunsnet.net/album/data//500/23601301_OHC6-med.jpg[/url] Pontiac 230ci overhead cam inline six. Parts are impossible to find. But what a challenge.[:D] Very nice. What vehicles were those originally used in? What type of numbers should you expect to produce? Do you plan on using the triple carb setup? |
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Nitrous will work fine, just don't get carried away. If you want to build it to handle Nitrous abuse, then do the following: 1) Use ARP main studs. Main cap bolts "stretch" and caps walk around when using Nitrous. 2) ARP "Wave-Loc" rod bolts. Weakest part of a rod is it's bolts. 3) "H" rated rod & main bearings. They are harder than OEM. 4) Balance the rotating assy. 5) Forged pistons for anything over 150 hp boost. Moly top ring is a must. Cast 2nd is OK. 6) MSD 6AL ignition (minimum) 7) MSD timing retard box. Retards timing only when Nitrous is activated. 8) Cold plugs. Prevents detonation. 9) Dedicated & reliable fuel system strictly for the Nitrous system. A seperate 1 gallon fuel cell and pump mounted on the rad support works great. 10) Be sure to use a Holley fuel pressure regulator. They are cheap AND reliable. If you buy the standard Holley "blue" pump, the regulator comes with it. 11) Run a -04 fuel return line from a fitting just before the fuel solenoid. Install a small (.030 or so) Nitrous jet inline so it doesn't bleed off too much pressure. You can grind the tapered part of a -04 male flare off and replace it with the NOS jet.(creating a restriction inline) This will purge any air or heated fuel from the line, and prevent fuel pressure/regulator "creep". 12) Standard rule of thumb is remove 2 degrees of timing for every 50hp of nitrous boost. 150hp = 6 degrees retard. This is adjustable with degree chips supplied with the timing retard box... That's about all I can think of off the top of my head... |
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Quoted: Cool pics! My old truck as mentioned, is a farm truck. It spends lots of time ideling during spring nights.... Plus, after driving 65 for some time (no over drive), and then idle it, I hear "valve clatter".... I've heard the valve clatter is actually a design feature. The I6 in stock form is so smooth and quiet it was the only way to tell it was running.[:D] |