Posted: 4/26/2007 2:53:53 PM EDT
| I'm kicking around the idea of getting an FFL. I have an office (my plumbing office) that I could list, and I wouldn't plan on keeping inventory, it would just be for ordering and transfers. Do you think it would be worthwhile to do? How much of a headache is it really? Note, I do have a C&R and my state CCW, so I am qualified and have some liscensing experience. |
|
I was going to get one. The paperwork and hassle and the possiblity that the ATF can come inspect your premises unannounced was not enough to win me over. They want to see turnover, not just a few purchased rifles. It is a business license and you will have to have proper zoning and approval from the city... |
| If you're already zoned commercial, that's a good start. Do you own the office, or is it leased? If it's leased, you have a problem because the property owner may have a say in what takes place there. If you own the building, that's another non-issue. You're in Mississippi, so you probably don't have a bunch of state regs specific to gun selling. Minnesota for instance, requires certain specific security requirements such as alarm systems, burglar bars, and whatnot, depending on the size of the operation. If you're willing to keep the required records, do enough outside business to show a profit, do the taxes, and are willing to deal with an annual compliance inspection, it may be worth it to you. You are better off than most by having a place of business (seperate from your home, I presume?). |
It's the family plumbing office, so it's not just a concrete floor shop. Yes, it is owned, but it is owned by my parents, so I might have to say I am renting my office room from them. It already has an alarm system in it, and like I said, I don't plan on keeping inventory. I am not really doing it as a source of principle income, just a little side thing and alot for my conveiniance. |
| I'm an FFL. ATF will not issue a license for "enhancing one's personal collection" for "doing business only at gun shows", or for doing business only through mail order or internet sales. You have to attest on the application that you are doing the business with the intent to make a profit. To falsify the application is a crime in and of itself. But if you are comforable answering those questions the way ATF wants, then you should be golden. |
So I am REQUIRED to keep inventory and to make a profit? What level of stock and profit would satisfy the ATF? Hell, what if I suck at business and lose money, am I in violation? |
You need to prove that you're trying, I'd think. If you ACTUALLY want to make this a business, that should be pretty easy to do, even part time. |
Every gun you buy using your FFL becomes your inventory, unless you subsequently log it into your personal book. If every gun that comes into your bound book goes out to your personal book, you are teh fucked. You do not need to stock guns for others to purchase, meaning you can do special orders and transfers, but you by god better do some. If you leave your personal guns in your business bound book, they had better be kept at the licensed premises and available for inspection unanounced druing normal business hours. And you have to file a Schedule C Business Profit and Loss with your taxes. If you show a loss for more than like 4 years, the IRS will audit your ass. And the ATF may have access to your Schedule C (I don't know) in order to make an assessment of your good-faith effort to "engage in the business". |
Depends on your individual county zoning regulations. Some places around here are zoned "exclusively agricultural", and those have tighter restrictions than just "agricultural". Agricultural zoning in Pierce County Wisconsin allows "Rural Home Occupations", which are more liberally defined than "Home Occupations" in Residential Areas. They normally allow a farmer to do some side business like small engine repair, or hay rides, or shit like that. That is the kind of thing that would normally be satisfactory for selling guns too. So I think easier to get an FFL on a farm, especially if you have a detached accessory building seperate from the domicile, than it is in residential zoning of any kind. |
No offense, but where can I get this info for myself? |
There is no conflict between the two statements you've highlighted. What I'm saying is that you can't do ALL your business with out-of-state customers where you buy from a distributor and ship to an out-of-state FFL to handle the 4473. But you can receive guns from out of state or special order guns for customers and then conduct the 4473 for them at your licensed premises. I'm not making this up. Go to ATF.gov and find Form 7, Application for License. It has several boxes you have to check stating specifically that you will NOT conduct business only through the internet, NOT conduct business only at gunshows, that you do NOT intend to use the license ONLY to enhance a personal collection, and that you DO intend to make a profit. |
I didn't think you were making this up, sorry if I sounded like that. Doing transfers for people in my state is what I would intend to do mainly. I guess I wasn't being as clear as I should. Thanks for the info! |
|
If you want to do it, you need to get a letter from your zoning administrator stating that the proposed activity is a permitted use. You will have to get a Business License from the state. This allows you to collect the required sales tax. There is a fee but this is normally rubber stamped. Normally, you will register your business name using a DBA form. This all assumes you want to conduct business as a sole proprietorship. If you want to form a corporation, that is a significant extra step, but may be worthwhile depending on what you're planning to do. Then file your ATF form 7 with BATFE and your local LE. Fingerprints, photographs, the whole nine yards. Wait several months, and ATF will contact you about a site inspection and indoctrination where they assess your sincerity and knowledge of the laws and regulations. They will check with the zoning authority in your jurisdiction at this time. That's all there is to it. 
|
Normally, regardless of your zoning, you can get a zoning "variance", but trust me you do not want to go there for a hobby FFL. It costs money, there are public hearings, norices in the paper, and your neighbors will get letters stating your intent to conduct a gun business next door so that they may have a chance to comment at the hearing. But the variance process explains how you get a business popping up in an otherwise non-commercial zone. |
|
OK. Here's my scenario. I live in my father's unattached guest house. We filled out a lease agreement stating that I was to live there free of charge for a certain period. I paid to have a corporation created, Arkla Armory Inc. The same company I paid to create my corporation also filed my paperwork with the IRS to get my EIN and S-corporation status. S corporation status allows me to file the business income as personal income. I listed myself as the President of the corporation with no other employees. I filed my paperwork with the state of Arkansas in order to get my AR taxpayer ID so I can pay the sales taxes. I got fingerprinted and had my passport picture taken for the FFL, filed under the corporation's name. I mailed it out Priority mail on April 17. Sometime in the past week, the ATF cashed my check. I believe that if they're going to deny you they'll either return your check with a reason for the denial or credit your account with the $200 if you choose to pay the $200 with a debit card. So now i'm just playing the waiting game; waiting until the license comes in the mail. I'm hoping i'll get it within the next week or so. I think the entire process was streamlined because when I filled out the application I had a valid EIN on file with the IRS and the corporation was valid in the state of Arkansas. |
You will definately have an interview by an agent from your local ATF office before they issue a license. Normally, they come out to the licensed premises for the interview. I got lucky and had a phone interview (attributed to their shrinking travel budget). Cashing the check has no significance really, since that's the first thing they do on receipt of the application, even before it gets to an examiner. It does confirm that they received it, however, so that's good. |
In the middle of my county, in the middle of nowhere? I'm not kidding, you don't have to pull a permit to build a house here (no shit, either - there's no one to issue it to you). |
I'd bet a dollar that there are zoning regulations for every p;rivately owned acre of land in Ohio. If it's out in the sticks, the county board will have authority. The regulations for many counties are avialable on line. |
The location would be a Raymond zip code, south of Jackson. In between Hwy 18 and Clinton if you are familiar with the area. |
The ATF will find someone to talk to about zoning, even if its the local gas station attendant. |
UGH. Hopefully i'll "get lucky" and get a phone interview, too. I'm 4 1/2 hours away from the nearest field office, and 7 hours away from the next nearest field office. |
Yes, there are regulations, but they are unenforced. And by that, I don't mean "we get away with it", I mean "if you call to ask for a building inspection, they tell you it is not required". |
OK, I accept that. However, ATF will not grant a license until someone with the title "Zoning Adminstrator" or "City Planner" writes you a letter on letterhead stating that your proposed business operations are acceptable per the local regulations. And then ATF will call them to follow up. You will need that piece of paper, no ifs ands or buts. So in your case, the lack of enforcement or an enforcement authority could be just as much of an obstacle as agressive enforcement would be to someone else. |
Got it. 
|
|
Here are the facts, not b/s speculation. First, you can indeed obtain an FFL at your plumbing biz location. The only issue is whether or not you can obtain a business license for it and if there is nothing prohibiting the biz zoning wise, and you are a 1000 feet away from a school. Since you have what is deemed a commercial biz already, go to the city or county and ask if you can get an occupational license for a gun dealer at your location and what it costs. If there isn't any problem, you are set. Mind you, you can't piggy back anything on to the Plumbing biz, it needs to be it's own separate entity. Otherwise your father would have to apply for the license and you would be an employee and you are not privileged with the same rights as the licensee. Next, since your parents own the property, you need to type up a permission letter. It simply needs to state that " I Mr. John H. Doe, owner of John Does Plumbing at 123 Any Street, Somewhere USA grants John H. Doe Jr. permission to use these premises for all lawful purposes associated with a Federal Firearms License as applied for signed John H Doe." Attach that to your Form 7 application, along with a copy of your biz license. Next you'll need a state sales tax ID number so that you can collect & remit sales tax, obtain that, attach a copy of that to the Application, attach a copy of your drivers license to the application, you'll have to do a print card and photograph. It's all included in the app. package. If you are going to do a Corp or LLC, or Fictitious Name, make sure you have all that pulled together and attach copies of the related documents to the Form 7. Think about the store hours that you'll be available. You have to state them on the app. If the plumbing biz is open 9-5 M-S but you're only available 12-4 M-F then put 12-4 M-F. You'll need to have a biz plan in your head. You indeed have to be in biz to make a profit. Mind you, you don't need to have inventory, you can do orders and transfers for Gunbroker & Auctionarms, sell on the internet via Gunbroker. The ATF field agent will ask you about your biz plan, how you plan to advertise, who you are marketing towards. If there isn't another gun dealer for 20 miles, it shouldn't be much of an issue. If you are next door to a big dealer, you might have a tough sell. If you want to deal in NFA weapons, and there isn't an NFA dealer around, that could be a niche for you. No need to bullshit anyone either. If you are honestly doing this to make some money on the side, that's good enough. If you just want to get guns for yourself and your buds cheap, then it's not worth the hassle and technically illegal. What ever you do, DO NOT LIE, not to yourself, not on the application, not to the ATF field agent. Another reason you need to be in the biz is some distributors won't want to deal with you esp. if you are price shopping. There is a lot to keep up with having an FFL, plus you'll at least have to file Schedule C with your taxes every year and keep excellent records. It's a real PITA if you are used to filing a 1040EZ. Think it through, examine your potential market. If you have any questions post them here or IM me. |
Thanks for confirming everything I said. To whom the "b/s speculation" comment was directed at, I haven't a clue. |
|
I live in rural area and am unzoned. No problem. Did not have to provide any zoning documentation, business plan, marketing plan, or any of that other stuff. Just what the application asked for. There are no requirements on inventory, or "making a profit". Lots of FFLs (and just about any other business), are not "profitable" for years after startup. I suggest you ask for the application and then read the directions. You will be surprised how easy it is. Just jump through a few hoops. It is a "Shall Issue" license. |
I suggest you go back and read your license application. Specifically the question "Do you intend to make a profit?" YES/NO. While for clarification sakes, you do not have to make a profit, you must intend to make a profit. Answering no to the question disqualifies you from the license as does only sellng at gun shows. No you do not need to provide a formal written business or marketing plan but the examiner will ask you how your intend to conduct your business, and who your customers might be. Some are more detailed than others. As I said, you need to have something in your head other than "I just want cheap guns for me and my friends". |
You are right about that. There is nothing on the form about prohibiting internet-only operations. That was a "I heard from a dude that his application was denied when he stated that he intended to sell only on gunbroker". The requirement in the CFR is that you have "premises for conducting business". If a person states that no business is going to be conducted on the licensed premesis (i.e. no customers ever set foot on your property because guns just come in and out from UPS/FedEx), then I would tend to believe that they could deny the application under that criteria. For precisely the same reason why gun-show-only sales are a disqualifier -- you don't do any business from the licensed premises. I have no personal, non-anecdotal evidence of that. I guess there was some BS speculation in there, after all. What do you know! I'll have to see where I saw/heard that from. ETA: Here's the definition of Business Premises from 27 CFR Part 478, which i think makes an intent to do internet-only sales from home a disqualifier: Business Premises: The property on which the manufacturing or importing of firearms or ammunition or the dealing in firearms is or will be conducted. A private dwelling, no part of which is open to the public, shall not be recognized as coming within the meaning of the term I interpret that to mean that you have to state an intent to deal with the public from your business premises in order for it to be licensed. If you tell ATF you're going to do business only through gunbroker (from your dwelling) and not deal with the public, you do not have "premises for conducting business" which is a basic requirement for licensure. |
You got off pretty easy. I'll admit that I did not get hassled too much during my interview either, mostly because I had my shit together from a paperwork standpoint, I suspect, with by Business Tax Registration, zoning letters, etc, having been submitted up front with the application. That and it was done by phone. If they had come out to the site and seen that I was going to be doing business out of my garage, they could have been a little more probing. |
I live in a rural area in Texas, as opposed to trying to get a FFL in NYC. I know plenty of folks who operate out of the home too. It also helps when others in the area already have FFLs, the Inspector already knows what will fly. |
What you just described is pretty much how a wholesaler such as RSR operates, or even a MFG. Most do not allow customers to come on site, and conduct all business via UPS/FEDEX. |
I tired to pick-up guns from a wholesaler who happens to be near me to avoid shipping charges, they told me they do not have a storefront and guns must be shipped out. |
What's different is that their premises are not a private dwelling. See the definition of Business premises I posted above in my edit. You cannot cunduct wholesale operations from a private dwelling, the way I read the definition. |
Got it. |
|
Hey, check out this link. They have actual bootleg copies of the ATF compliance inspector handbook! This should tell one precisely what there are instructed to check/verify. I haven't read them yet. ATF Inspectors Handbook |