Posted: 6/25/2026 5:33:10 PM EDT
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Thus far I’ve only experiment with three position FRTs in cheap PSA range toys. Anything I’d use for hunting, home defense, truck gun, SHTF has a Schmid, Colt, G$ or LaRue trigger. Anyway, saw that skinny kid that used to make holsters ranting online about people using FRTs for home defense. He sounded like a fudd. Now I’m thinking about putting a three position FRT in my suppressed DD MK18 SBR truck gun. |
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Quoted: I wouldn't put a FRT on a self defense / truck gun. If the DA / Grand Jury didn't indict you then the you'd lose everything in a civil trial. I wouldn't find you guilty but now days I don't see a positive outcome in that situation So you think an unused third, enhanced semi, position carries civil liability? |
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Quoted: I wouldn't put a FRT on a self defense / truck gun. If the DA / Grand Jury didn't indict you then the you'd lose everything in a civil trial. I wouldn't find you guilty but now days I don't see a positive outcome in that situation Even if you're found innocent you're looking at $10k out of pocket in lawyer fees you likely won't recoup, plus the emotional toll of potentially facing prison time. It's not worth it. Anything that conveys to the jury that you were intending on or looking forward to getting into a gunfight or wanting to kill someone will be used against you. It's not about legal vs illegal, it's simply common sense. Even if the trial goes your way the added stress and constant "what if" worries will take their toll. |
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Quoted: Even if you're found innocent you're looking at $10k out of pocket in lawyer fees you likely won't recoup, plus the emotional toll of potentially facing prison time. It's not worth it. Anything that conveys to the jury that you were intending on or looking forward to getting into a gunfight or wanting to kill someone will be used against you. It's not about legal vs illegal, it's simply common sense. Even if the trial goes your way the added stress and constant "what if" worries will take their toll. Quoted: Quoted: I wouldn't put a FRT on a self defense / truck gun. If the DA / Grand Jury didn't indict you then the you'd lose everything in a civil trial. I wouldn't find you guilty but now days I don't see a positive outcome in that situation Even if you're found innocent you're looking at $10k out of pocket in lawyer fees you likely won't recoup, plus the emotional toll of potentially facing prison time. It's not worth it. Anything that conveys to the jury that you were intending on or looking forward to getting into a gunfight or wanting to kill someone will be used against you. It's not about legal vs illegal, it's simply common sense. Even if the trial goes your way the added stress and constant "what if" worries will take their toll. Mr Ayoob, is that you? |
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I don’t live in a shitty Dem controlled area or a shitty Dem controlled state. I have guns with FRTs I wouldn’t hesitate to grab and use for HD/SD. They’re not MGs and they’re not machine gun conversion devices, not that either of those things would matter. I’ve no concerns about overzealous hypothetical prosecutors. |
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Quoted: Yeah, better not use hollow point bullets or >5 round mags either. Im not saying not to use hollow points or std capacity mags. Those are fine. Do you really think your rifle isn't going to be dissected in front of a jury, with your life on the line? Hollow points can be defended as in use by LE agencies. Std capacity mags are.. standard capacity. You shot him 3 times, but had 27 left? That sounds reasonable. That sounds like restraint. Did you dump 90 rounds into his face, reloading 3 times? Probably not a good look. There's playing 2A-advocate-come-and-take-them tough guy on the internet and there's reality. They aren't the same. In a courtroom, especially in a civil case, you'll be fucking crying as they demonize you. It doesn't matter how many other people have the same things and post on forums. You will be alone in that courtroom. |
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Quoted: For a self-defense gun, a wise person always asks: "How would this look to a jury?" The wisest person always asks how will this save my life or my family’s lives?  IF I believed that were an FRT equipped firearm or anything else available to me, I would use it. That being said, I own several registered machineguns, NONE of which are my go to for SD/HD. NOT because I am worried what a cop/prosecutor/judge/jury will think but because hits on threat > spray and pray, particularly in an environment that may also be populated with family, friends and neighbors. |
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Quoted: So you carry a revolver? How about a single shot derringer? Sharp (or dull??) stick? Quoted: Quoted: For a self-defense gun, a wise person always asks: "How would this look to a jury?" So you carry a revolver? How about a single shot derringer? Sharp (or dull??) stick? Take that to the extreme though... Would you place an electric chainsaw with "FUCK YOU HAHAAHAHA!" hand engraved on the side of it sitting next to your bed with the intent of using it as a viable defensive tool? What do you expect the 80 year old grandma they put on the jury would think when she sees it? |
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Quoted: So you carry a revolver? How about a single shot derringer? Sharp (or dull??) stick? Any gun used in SD is going to get dissected, and a video of it with the FRT is going to be played to the jury. I would not want that being played when my life is on the line. However, I really like that for you. (I stole that from GD.  )You may think you have a right to Twelve Men Good And True serving on your jury, but that just tells me you've never been on jury duty. It's more like Twelve People Bored and Annoyed. But you do you, bro! |
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Quoted: For a self-defense gun, a wise person always asks: "How would this look to a jury?" So a pump shot gun and a .38 only huh? Because an AR is a "killer rifle that has no place on the streets." I've seen home invasions that were done with multiple individuals in a coordinated attack, the targets had firearms but didn't survive. Something like a FRT (which didn't exist at the time) may or may not have turned them back. Everyone always thinks they know what their home defense scenario will look like, in almost every case it will be an entirely different movie and most of the things you trained for won't apply and you will wish you had thought of other things but they never occurred to you. Criminals did not take your defensive shooting course, they are not going to be static / passive targets while you pie the room. They will be erratic, dynamic and unburdened by rules or doctrine. If they came armed, they probably came to kill and brought determination and experience with them. The only thing they "might" respect if firepower and overwhelming force. |
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Quoted: Yeah, better not use hollow point bullets or >5 round mags either. Quoted: Quoted: Mr Ayoob, is that you? Yeah, better not use hollow point bullets or >5 round mags either. and remember only #8 birdshot in a shotgun and a wood stock, no pistol grip. Also, only use a CHEAP gun that you don’t mind losing to cops as evidence. All crap that people who just assume they will “win” any attack they find themselves on the receiving end of. |
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Quoted: Any gun used in SD is going to get dissected, and a video of it with the FRT is going to be played to the jury. I would not want that being played when my life is on the line. However, I really like that for you. (I stole that from GD. )You may think you have a right to Twelve Men Good And True serving on your jury, but that just tells me you've never been on jury duty. It's more like Twelve People Bored and Annoyed. But you do you, bro! Quoted: Quoted: So you carry a revolver? How about a single shot derringer? Sharp (or dull??) stick? Any gun used in SD is going to get dissected, and a video of it with the FRT is going to be played to the jury. I would not want that being played when my life is on the line. However, I really like that for you. (I stole that from GD. )You may think you have a right to Twelve Men Good And True serving on your jury, but that just tells me you've never been on jury duty. It's more like Twelve People Bored and Annoyed. But you do you, bro! This 100%. The system is REALLY broken. It doesn't matter what's "technically" legal and solid on paper. All they need is to convince the jury that you're a scumbag. Everything will be placed on display. Pictures of your house. Pictures of your gun collection. Do you own a plate carrier? Post pics on Facebook? Replies to pro-gun posts? Right or wrong, it's all coming to the prosecution's argument. Hell, the SHIRT you're wearing and any logos or symbols will be displayed. They'll haul out and display your entire wardrobe if they have to. There really are no guarantees and people can vote either way simply because they just don't like you or the image you've been presented with. It's a fucking circus... |
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Quoted: I wouldn't put one in my bedside rifle. I have one in my SHTF rifle. You planning on receiving a re-supply drop? Options are always good but SHTF for an individual is likely going to be a good time to conserve ammunition and make each shot count. ETA- not s flame, carry whatever you think will be most advantageous for you and yours. |
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Quoted: So a pump shot gun and a .38 only huh? Because an AR is a "killer rifle that has no place on the streets." I've seen home invasions that were done with multiple individuals in a coordinated attack, the targets had firearms but didn't survive. Something like a FRT (which didn't exist at the time) may or may not have turned them back. Everyone always thinks they know what their home defense scenario will look like, in almost every case it will be an entirely different movie and most of the things you trained for won't apply and you will wish you had thought of other things but they never occurred to you. Criminals did not take your defensive shooting course, they are not going to be static / passive targets while you pie the room. They will be erratic, dynamic and unburdened by rules or doctrine. If they came armed, they probably came to kill and brought determination and experience with them. The only thing they "might" respect if firepower and overwhelming force. lol You really have no idea that there's a big wide world between a FRT in a AR, and a pump shot gun? Is that your story? Is it also your story that people on juries are smart enough to be able to distinguish between a machine gun and a FRT? And that you want your side to have the responsibility of explaining that to twelve bored, annoyed people from a wide variety of backgrounds? Because if you don't explain it and make them agree, you are going to jail for a very long time? Is that your story? lol |
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Quoted: So a pump shot gun and a .38 only huh? Because an AR is a "killer rifle that has no place on the streets." I've seen home invasions that were done with multiple individuals in a coordinated attack, the targets had firearms but didn't survive. Something like a FRT (which didn't exist at the time) may or may not have turned them back. Everyone always thinks they know what their home defense scenario will look like, in almost every case it will be an entirely different movie and most of the things you trained for won't apply and you will wish you had thought of other things but they never occurred to you. Criminals did not take your defensive shooting course, they are not going to be static / passive targets while you pie the room. They will be erratic, dynamic and unburdened by rules or doctrine. If they came armed, they probably came to kill and brought determination and experience with them. The only thing they "might" respect if firepower and overwhelming force. My HD gun for my condo in California is a 20Ga wingmaster and I carry a .38 there. That’s due to a strange California penal code subsection that treats semiautomatic firearms differently though. |
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Quoted: lol You really have no idea that there's a big wide world between a FRT in a AR, and a pump shot gun? Is that your story? Is it also your story that people on juries are smart enough to be able to distinguish between a machine gun and a FRT? And that you want your side to have the responsibility of explaining that to twelve bored, annoyed people from a wide variety of backgrounds? Because if you don't explain it and make them agree, you are going to jail for a very long time? Is that your story? lol lol. You really think they aren't coming at you just as hard no matter what you use? |
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Quoted: You planning on receiving a re-supply drop? Options are always good but SHTF for an individual is likely going to be a good time to conserve ammunition and make each shot count. ETA- not s flame, carry whatever you think will be most advantageous for you and yours. Quoted: Quoted: I wouldn't put one in my bedside rifle. I have one in my SHTF rifle. You planning on receiving a re-supply drop? Options are always good but SHTF for an individual is likely going to be a good time to conserve ammunition and make each shot count. ETA- not s flame, carry whatever you think will be most advantageous for you and yours. I have enough ammo that there will be no need for a resupply drop. I prefer to recon by fire if it is truly a bad time. I won't be alone either.  
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| My FRT is in a range fun gun only, as here in New Orleans I would be facing trouble from the D.A.'s office anyway, especially as a white former police officer. Don't see the need to add anything else to the pile. Though if somehow I found myself with immediate access only to my FRT equipped weapon and people breaking into the house, I'd obviously use it. Though the safe it is stored in also houses a trio of lever guns, one in .357, one in 45-70, and one in 30-30, all with loaded magazines, so I still might grab one of them instead over the 9mm AR. |
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Quoted: I wouldn't put a FRT on a self defense / truck gun. If the DA / Grand Jury didn't indict you then the you'd lose everything in a civil trial. I wouldn't find you guilty but now days I don't see a positive outcome in that situation Can’t sue you in Texas for a good shoot. FRT AR in my vehicle and home. |
| I've got about 1k on mine with only one FTF failure - a short stroke - which could have been ammo (Wolf Gold) related. I trust it, but the M16A3/4 musket configuration doesn't lend itself well to movement in a home defense situation. Post-up at the bedroom door and put a 5-round burst center mass of a perp who enters the hallway? Sure. |
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Quoted: Im not saying not to use hollow points or std capacity mags. Those are fine. Do you really think your rifle isn't going to be dissected in front of a jury, with your life on the line? Hollow points can be defended as in use by LE agencies. Std capacity mags are.. standard capacity. You shot him 3 times, but had 27 left? That sounds reasonable. That sounds like restraint. Did you dump 90 rounds into his face, reloading 3 times? Probably not a good look. There's playing 2A-advocate-come-and-take-them tough guy on the internet and there's reality. They aren't the same. In a courtroom, especially in a civil case, you'll be fucking crying as they demonize you. It doesn't matter how many other people have the same things and post on forums. You will be alone in that courtroom. Quoted: Quoted: Yeah, better not use hollow point bullets or >5 round mags either. Im not saying not to use hollow points or std capacity mags. Those are fine. Do you really think your rifle isn't going to be dissected in front of a jury, with your life on the line? Hollow points can be defended as in use by LE agencies. Std capacity mags are.. standard capacity. You shot him 3 times, but had 27 left? That sounds reasonable. That sounds like restraint. Did you dump 90 rounds into his face, reloading 3 times? Probably not a good look. There's playing 2A-advocate-come-and-take-them tough guy on the internet and there's reality. They aren't the same. In a courtroom, especially in a civil case, you'll be fucking crying as they demonize you. It doesn't matter how many other people have the same things and post on forums. You will be alone in that courtroom. well if you are putting 90 rounds into his face then yea you probably NEED some intervention.... is that you Joe? (Why does anyone need armor piercing bullets deer don't have bullet proof vests on") ya do understand that you do not have to fire every round in the mag just cause its got an FRT correct? |
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Quoted: Mr Ayoob, is that you? Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: I wouldn't put a FRT on a self defense / truck gun. If the DA / Grand Jury didn't indict you then the you'd lose everything in a civil trial. I wouldn't find you guilty but now days I don't see a positive outcome in that situation Even if you're found innocent you're looking at $10k out of pocket in lawyer fees you likely won't recoup, plus the emotional toll of potentially facing prison time. It's not worth it. Anything that conveys to the jury that you were intending on or looking forward to getting into a gunfight or wanting to kill someone will be used against you. It's not about legal vs illegal, it's simply common sense. Even if the trial goes your way the added stress and constant "what if" worries will take their toll. Mr Ayoob, is that you? Honestly, I’m with him. Gary Fadden beat the rap, but in today’s money spent like 150K to beat it. I’d like to avoid that, if I can. |
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My SBR’d AP5 runs like a raped ape and is configured like a 1970s MP5. It ran perfectly with 147gr bonded JHP, too. I have certainly thought about its application in the fatal funnel that leads to the bedroom. More than once. In terms of firearms I can operate with unconscious competence because I have shot them so much: G19/26, 1911, M4-type, 870. (House gun is an HK45c at present, it’s really grown on me.) So, not quite there yet, mostly for potential adverse legal consequences and relative unfamiliarity. But that little sweetheart would fuck a home invasion crew up. |
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Quoted: Im not saying not to use hollow points or std capacity mags. Those are fine. Do you really think your rifle isn't going to be dissected in front of a jury, with your life on the line? Hollow points can be defended as in use by LE agencies. Std capacity mags are.. standard capacity. You shot him 3 times, but had 27 left? That sounds reasonable. That sounds like restraint. Did you dump 90 rounds into his face, reloading 3 times? Probably not a good look. There's playing 2A-advocate-come-and-take-them tough guy on the internet and there's reality. They aren't the same. In a courtroom, especially in a civil case, you'll be fucking crying as they demonize you. It doesn't matter how many other people have the same things and post on forums. You will be alone in that courtroom. Rittenhouse was accused of using 55 grain .223 FMJ in his trial as if that meant he was looking to kill somene. Dude. If you have a prosecutor that is looking to hang you, EVERYTHING you did / have / used will be called into question. For those of us here on arfcom, I'd bet that would come up and they would try to use it against you also. |
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Quoted: My SBR’d AP5 runs like a raped ape and is configured like a 1970s MP5. It ran perfectly with 147gr bonded JHP, too. I have certainly thought about its application in the fatal funnel that leads to the bedroom. More than once. In terms of firearms I can operate with unconscious competence because I have shot them so much: G19/26, 1911, M4-type, 870. (House gun is an HK45c at present, it’s really grown on me.) So, not quite there yet, mostly for potential adverse legal consequences and relative unfamiliarity. But that little sweetheart would fuck a home invasion crew up. Aside from post shooting concerns, practically an frt in a sub gun would be their best use for defense. |
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Quoted: Yeah, better not use hollow point bullets or >5 round mags either. Quoted: Quoted: Mr Ayoob, is that you? Yeah, better not use hollow point bullets or >5 round mags either. I've probably posted this 50 times in GD and will again. Friend 1. Obvious SD shooting. No charges until the dead guys connected family pushed the issue. Prosecution made a hissy in court that my friend was out to kill because he had spare mags with alternating ammo types. Friend 2. Shot a stupid uncle that shot at him first at family Thanksgiving. Prosecution and the investigators claimed that even though the dead guy had a spent case in his revolver they couldn't say it was fired at that event. 10 of 11 witnesses testified the dead guy shot at my friend first. Number 11 that said dead guy didnt shoot was dead guys wife. Both found not guilty both charged with murder in a very red county both were offered minimum 15 years to plead guilty both spent $50-100k in legal defense. Im not saying you will be charged just because you have whatever gun, accessories, or ammo. Im not saying you will be found guilty or shouldn't use those things. I'm saying the slimy government lawyer will use it in court against you in the hopes he gets a conviction so he looks good next election. |