Posted: 10/27/2014 7:46:30 AM EDT
|
Got a speeding ticket on Saturday night. First one in more than a decade. Small town speed trap, here the limit drops from 45 to 25 for a few blocks. Wrote me for 55 in a 25. I was surprised I was going that fast, as it was dark and I was moving slower than the flow of traffic so that I could read street signs, needing to find an address in an unfamiliar neighborhood to pick up one of my kids. I'm sure I was going more than 25, so a ticket might well be merited.
However, in PA 30 over is expensive ($217.50) and puts 5 points on your license (6 is suspension) not to mention that it tends to cause your insurance company to raise your rates. I know I can play the local game, pay a local lawyer to represent me and get it changed to a less severe offense as long as the town gets to keep my money. But I have a question about the need for the ticket to be accurate, and if it is wrong. According to the ticket, I was clocked at 55.385 MPH, was measured for 2.41 seconds and covered .0358 miles. I presume that is all calculated by whatever device they use for speed measurement (local depts. in PA can not use radar). Only problem is the numbers don't match up. At that speed I should have travelled .0370 miles in 2.41 seconds. Using their measurements I would have been traveling at least 1 MPH slower. While that may not seem like much it drops the violation down to a lessor category, with a smaller fine and fewer points. Is this worth arguing, or is that simply considered in the noise for the measurement/equipment? They are the ones who put 3 decimal points of accuracy on the violation. |
|
If it meant that I could avoid getting points on my license, I would argue anything.
I have no idea about arguing the math involved or the equipment calibration or any of that, but I would get an attorney to try and get the ticket reduced. Something this drastic isn't something I would try to handle on my own. |
|
Plead not guilty and take a hearing. Chances are, the judge will reduce the ticket.
Since it was a local officer, they used either a ROBIC, VASCAR or ENRAD to determine your speed. I don't know about the ENRAD, but the other two have a built in fudge factor (which benefits the driver) which means you were actually going faster than the speed written on the citation. |
|
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/VASCAR I have never used VASCAR. Read up and find out how the officer was running VASCAR (stationary, moving, etc.) and how far away he was from the two fixed reference objects. It also says that the officer generally enters the reference distance by traveling over it several times with his patrol vehicle and entering the value with his odometer. Every odometer I've seen only goes down to one decimal place. VASCARMost states allow police officers to catch speeders using technology called VASCAR (Visual Average Speed Computer and Recorder). Despite the fancy name, VASCAR amounts to a stopwatch coupled electronically with a calculator. The calculator divides the distance the target vehicle travels (as recorded by the stopwatch) by the time it took to travel that distance. For example, a car passing between two points 200 feet apart, over two seconds, is traveling an average speed of 200/2 or 100 feet per second, which converts to 68 miles per hour. VASCAR is not like a radar or laser gun, which gives a readout of a vehicle’s speed by simply pointing and pulling the trigger. A VASCAR unit requires far more human input than radar or laser guns. As we will see, this also greatly increases the possibility of mistakes. VASCAR works like this: The officer measures the distance between the two points by using a measuring tape or uses the patrol car’s odometer, which is connected to the VASCAR unit. When the officer sees the target vehicle pass one of two points, the officer pushes a button to start the electronic stopwatch, then pushes it again to stop it when the vehicle passes the second point. A VASCAR unit is normally connected to an officer’s odometer to allow the measurement of a distance between two preselected points while driving past them. This also allows an officer to use the unit while moving. VASCAR units are engineered to take into account the police unit’s speed and the suspected vehicle’s speed by pressing the "time” switch twice as your car passes the two preselected points, and by pressing the "distance” button twice as the patrol car traverses those same two points. The officer can use a VASCAR unit in five ways:
VASCAR is obviously a much more flexible tool than pacing, since the officer does not have to be going the same speed as you are or follow you over any particular distance. As long as the officer manipulates the "time” and "distance” switches correctly and consistently, while accurately observing when your vehicle and the patrol car pass over the same two points, the officer can accurately track your speed. But fortunately (from your point of view) using VASCAR correctly isn’t easy. For example, it is no easy thing to accurately push the "time” and "distance” buttons while observing the target pass between two points, at least one of which is almost sure to be far away from the officer. And, of course, doing this accurately is even harder when the patrol car is moving.
How VASCAR FailsBecause speed is defined as distance traveled per unit of time, timing an object’s passage between two measured points seems foolproof. But because VASCAR measurement depends entirely on human input—accurately pushing the button for "time” and "distance”—it is easy for errors to creep in. The most common three mistakes that can cause error in a VASCAR measurement are:
In its Legal Defense Kit for defending traffic tickets, the National Motorists Association of Waunaukee, Wisconsin (www?.motorists.org) includes a scientific study entitled "An Error Analysis of VASCAR-Plus,” by Kenneth A. Moore of JAG Engineering, Manassas, Virginia. Through numerous calculations, charts, and graphs, Moore demonstrates that VASCAR is most prone to error where the distance between the two clocking points is 1,500 feet or more. (He also agrees that it is prone to error below 500 feet.) The possibility of VASCAR error is so well known that Pennsylvania lawmakers have taken action. Pennsylvania law (Title 75, Section 3368) forbids a VASCAR speeding conviction—where the speed limit is less than 55 mph—if the VASCAR speed readout isn’t more than 10 mph over the limit. That’s another way of saying, "We don’t trust the accuracy of a VASCAR unit that says ‘44 mph’ when the speed limit is 35.” If you’re charged with speeding and the officer used VASCAR, you should try to bring up these possibilities for inaccuracy at trial. The best way to do this is to cross-examine the officer, knowing what questions to ask (see this article).
|
|
Quoted:
This. If your traffic court allows plea bargaining then fight it. Quoted:
Quoted:
Plead not guilty and take a hearing. Chances are, the judge will reduce the ticket. This. If your traffic court allows plea bargaining then fight it. Can't hurt to try, unless you have to take a day off work or something and end up losing money. |
|
Quoted:
This. If your traffic court allows plea bargaining then fight it. Quoted:
Quoted:
Plead not guilty and take a hearing. Chances are, the judge will reduce the ticket. This. If your traffic court allows plea bargaining then fight it. I plan to plead not guilty and fight the ticket. Just wondering if the inaccuracy in the math makes a difference. |
|
Quoted:
I plan to plead not guilty and fight the ticket. Just wondering if the inaccuracy in the math makes a difference. Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Plead not guilty and take a hearing. Chances are, the judge will reduce the ticket. This. If your traffic court allows plea bargaining then fight it. I plan to plead not guilty and fight the ticket. Just wondering if the inaccuracy in the math makes a difference. It definitely could, but I don't think those numbers would come into play unless you went to trial over it. |
|
I wouldn't approach it trying to fight the method that your speed was measured. 99.9% of the time, the officer recites the calibrations of the equipment, his certifications, and the judge takes that as 100% gospel. Plead not guilty, get a trial date, and then have a pre-trial conference with the ADA or whatever prosecutor. They'll likely offer you a deal. Or, get a lawyer to do it, and you'll be almost assured of a reduced fine/conviction. To me, the clean record and lower insurance premiums are more important than the fine. I got stopped for running a red light. I did it, completely in the wrong. I hired a lawyer, and he got it knocked down to impeding - zero points, nothing on my record, and a $70 fine. The lawyer cost me $350, but I still have a clean record, which makes it much more likely to get a break if I get stopped in the future. And with a 16 year-old driver on my policy, I need everything else keeping my premiums as low as possible. |
|
Quoted:
I plan to plead not guilty and fight the ticket. Just wondering if the inaccuracy in the math makes a difference. Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Plead not guilty and take a hearing. Chances are, the judge will reduce the ticket. This. If your traffic court allows plea bargaining then fight it. I plan to plead not guilty and fight the ticket. Just wondering if the inaccuracy in the math makes a difference. Make sure you plead not guilty and get a couple continuances, the officer will love that. Over here, those numbers do not matter unless you take it all the way to a trial but even then its hit or miss whether they're needed. As long as the officer is certified on whatever he got you with and the equipment was calibrated, it's pretty much good to go. |
|
I fought one before (really wasn't speeding) and "won". Not guilty and ordered to pay court cost which equaled to more than the cost of the ticket and required me to go to court twice. Not really worth it in the end.
The last time (was guilty 29 in a 25 going down a huge hill on my street) I called the DA and talked to them. They changed it from a speeding to a no gas cap ticket. Probably cost about the same but a non moving violation. They were more interested in the revenue than the actual violation. |
|
Math is wrong, but not by much. Your distance/time works out to 53.48 mph.
If the detection device relies on officer reaction times (VASCAR) you may have a case; it all depends on how much you want to spend (time and money() fighting it. If you have a clean record I suggest you go to court, plead not guilty, and ask the judge if it can be reduced. Or hire a lawyer to do that for you. |
|
Quoted:
Show up at the opening. Things may go faster than normal, officer hasn't arrived, your case is called. You win. (I read this in a "How to beat a ticket" article. Never used it, have no idea if it goes down like this). The officer won't be at the first court date. He will simply go in a plead guilty/not guilty then they will schedule another court date. The officer will get a subpoena time and they won't call the case before that time. |
|
Quoted:
The officer won't be at the first court date. He will simply go in a plead guilty/not guilty then they will schedule another court date. The officer will get a subpoena time and they won't call the case before that time. Quoted:
Quoted:
Show up at the opening. Things may go faster than normal, officer hasn't arrived, your case is called. You win. (I read this in a "How to beat a ticket" article. Never used it, have no idea if it goes down like this). The officer won't be at the first court date. He will simply go in a plead guilty/not guilty then they will schedule another court date. The officer will get a subpoena time and they won't call the case before that time. see my edit, especially the pic
|
|
Quoted:
Make sure you plead not guilty and get a couple continuances, the officer will love that. Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Plead not guilty and take a hearing. Chances are, the judge will reduce the ticket. This. If your traffic court allows plea bargaining then fight it. I plan to plead not guilty and fight the ticket. Just wondering if the inaccuracy in the math makes a difference. Make sure you plead not guilty and get a couple continuances, the officer will love that. I sure would, I loved pensionable traffic court OT. |
|
Quoted:
I sure would, I loved pensionable traffic court OT. Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Plead not guilty and take a hearing. Chances are, the judge will reduce the ticket. This. If your traffic court allows plea bargaining then fight it. I plan to plead not guilty and fight the ticket. Just wondering if the inaccuracy in the math makes a difference. Make sure you plead not guilty and get a couple continuances, the officer will love that. I sure would, I loved pensionable traffic court OT. Exactly my point. And try to schedule it on the officer's days off. That's even better, 8 hour minimum if it's a show up then |
|
OP: I'm a PA cop and self appointed VASCAR superstar. First, VASCAR only measures to one tenth MPH. Second, neither yours nor the officer's math adds up to your speed, given the time and two distances presented. If it were me, I would fight it, or at least seek 5mph over. I wouldn't hire an attorney either if you just want 5 over, as an attorney will charge who knows what to ask for the same thing you can do on your own. Most courts are good with 5 over. If you really want to fight it the math is in your favor even without an attorney. Also at bottom of citation it should list moving or parked mode and reference points used.
And for the record before all the crybabies: YES VASCAR IS EXTREMELY ACCURATE. Edit: it's obvious a lot of people here don't know how traffic court works in PA. There's you, the officer, the Judge. No jury, no prosecutor, and only a lawyer if you want to spend 500 to fight a 220 ticket. And you can PM me if you like, I'm only trying to help, and I love talking VASCAR. |
|
Quoted:
Exactly my point. And try to schedule it on the officer's days off. That's even better, 8 hour minimum if it's a show up then Quoted:
Exactly my point. And try to schedule it on the officer's days off. That's even better, 8 hour minimum if it's a show up then That they wouldn't let us do. Quoted:
Quoted:
are the new radar guns that precise? The ones I used 7 years ago were + or - 1mph.... I don't know many officer who still use radar. We all pretty much use LIDAR around here. Much more accurate. Most use radar here. |
|
Quoted: Not every traffic court is like yours. Quoted: Quoted: Here's how I do it. Scan the ticket and email to my lawyer. Receive invoice from lawyer. Pay invoice. Forget about ticket. No points, no time off from work, no wasting time in court. Yes it's that easy. Mike Not every traffic court is like yours. |
|
Quoted:
Make sure you plead not guilty and get a couple continuances, the officer will love that. Over here, those numbers do not matter unless you take it all the way to a trial but even then its hit or miss whether they're needed. As long as the officer is certified on whatever he got you with and the equipment was calibrated, it's pretty much good to go. Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Plead not guilty and take a hearing. Chances are, the judge will reduce the ticket. This. If your traffic court allows plea bargaining then fight it. I plan to plead not guilty and fight the ticket. Just wondering if the inaccuracy in the math makes a difference. Make sure you plead not guilty and get a couple continuances, the officer will love that. Over here, those numbers do not matter unless you take it all the way to a trial but even then its hit or miss whether they're needed. As long as the officer is certified on whatever he got you with and the equipment was calibrated, it's pretty much good to go. Don't play that game too often unless you want a warrant and a free trip to the pokey. Okay to piss off the police not ok to piss off the judge. |
|
Was he moving or stationary?
Does he have his measurement points labelled? Can you hit the local forums and find the user manual and police sop for the use and issuance of citations? Do you have gps and route recording? How bad do you want them to hate you there? Shawn |
|
Quoted: Math is wrong, but not by much. Your distance/time works out to 53.48 mph. If the detection device relies on officer reaction times (VASCAR) you may have a case; it all depends on how much you want to spend (time and money() fighting it. If you have a clean record I suggest you go to court, plead not guilty, and ask the judge if it can be reduced. Or hire a lawyer to do that for you. If he catches it--good reaction time. If the pen hits him--bad reaction time.
![]() |
|
Quoted: I don't know many officer who still use radar. We all pretty much use LIDAR around here. Much more accurate. Quoted: Quoted: are the new radar guns that precise? The ones I used 7 years ago were + or - 1mph.... I don't know many officer who still use radar. We all pretty much use LIDAR around here. Much more accurate. Don't have to go into your vehicle tracking history. Just have to say you aimed the LIDAR at the offender's vehicle and got the speed measurement reading.
|
|
Most traffic ticket lawyers charge about $175 to fight a speeding ticket for you. They'll exploit the system and request a jury trial. Since the government doesn't want to spend the money for a jury trial since the trial cost is far greater than that of the fine they'll generate, the government will likely drop or reduce the charges.
I've hired a lawyer to do the above a few times. It can take a year or two before the case comes up for trial. Within 6 months to two years, the cases were dropped or the charges greatly reduced. Cops use the system against you for revenue generation, so use it right back against them. |
|
Plead guilty with an explanation.
Explain to the judge that you were going slower than the traffic because you were in an unknown area, as you mentioned above. If you were polite to the cops, you should get away with no points, court costs and a fine. Since it's been over ten years since your last ticket, that is also good. |
