Posted: 5/14/2005 12:13:48 PM EDT
This may have been discussed in a previous thread, but I went to purchase a weapon from a local gun dealer today, and when he ran my background check, I was denied!?  I am furious that this could happen, because for one, I just purchased several firearms within the past month, and two, I am a LEO. I have NEVER been arrested or involved in any altercations including my juvenile years. I have purchased numerous weapons over the years, and now this! Can anyone direct me on what to do, or does anyone have any similiar issues like this? According to my denial paperwork, I have to file an appeal in writing. I am still livid that this happened to me. So if anyone can explain why this might of happened, I would appreciate it. By the way, Colorado where I reside, does not have a limit on the amount of firearms you can purchase in a certain amount of time (so I was told by the FFL dealer). Thanks
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When you filled out the 4473 did you write down your SS#? |
Why would you do that? They have plenty of information. Too much in fact. It's been suggested to me that I should put my SSN down on the firearms I've purchased but I always leave it blank. Hasn't been a problem. |
Yes in fact I did. Just to prevent this from happening. I will go back and have them run it again on Monday. I will also send out the appeal paperwork to the Colorado Bureau of Investigations to see why the heck this even happened to me. |
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1. Tell the dealer/merchant that the money stays on the counter until the transfer is approved -- No approval means no deal. 2. When the dealer is on the phone w/ NICS , say in a loud voice: " Tell them not to worry -- I have a gun right now!" 3. Never put any information on the forms that is not required. Boot lickers are often the first to go 'postal' -- and the FBI knows it. |
You can "fix" that by filing a Voluntary Appeal File with the FBI. www.fbi.gov/hq/cjisd/nics/vafbrocheng.htm |
Hey...calm down...the Goobernet knows whats best...they are protecting us...they have determined your a danger and should not have another gun!? What part do you not understand??  (Just joking)Reminds me...several years (and years) ago being a rookie cop and having my mother go to the gun store to buy ammo cause I was just shy of 21...could not buy in uniform 
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Not to be an ass.... but the fact that you are LEO and you came here to ask that question scares the hell out of me  Why not ask your other LEO friends, or maybe,, uhhhh the Sheriff or CLEO  Or here's an idea... call your local BATFE branch and inquire about your situation and let them know you are LEO. Also, did I mention that you being a LEO and asking these questions scares me   You may want to post this in the "Brothers of the Shield" Discussion area because they would probably know more about it. Oh yeah, breathe deeply and stay calm.... it's probably just a misunderstanding anyway... no need to get "too" mad about it. This kinda stuff happens 
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Back when I was manning the counter at the gun shop, I had an LEO get denied. I made sure all info was correct, that I recited it correctly and that it was read back to me. Denied. He was yelling that he had a gun already and that he's a cop. They responded that they didn't care if he was a cop. It was funny to me at the time. Well, he left for the day. Came back the next day, asked me to run it again - and it came back approved. Probably in the system was a flag for some reason or another. I have no idea. I think he called some of his badge buddies and they looked into it. I have had several denied forms in my time there. Do the appeal, let your chain of command know and get it fixed. Or turn in your gun - FBI says your not supposed to have one. Make sure all info is correct on your form. I had one come back denied because the idiot transposed his own ssn and swore up and down it was correct - until he looked at it the third time. Good luck. BTW, NICS is manned by an answering service. You get an agent only if you get transfered or a return call. And yes, it needs to be fixed cause it is broken and never really worked well from the start. Thanks Ted and Chuck. Your legacy will haunt us forever on. |
I think it shocked him that a LEO would have to ask us. A LEO should know this stuff....... (the basics, anyway...) |
| Why should I have to "know" in depth about the NICS? I do not work for the Colorado Bureau of Investigations nor should I have to "know" how some Federal Background Check system operates internally in order to process my information. I know the basics when it comes to these 4473 checks. I have submitted them for years, so why is it strange that I am shocked to be denied? I have already made some calls to resolve this issue. I simply wondered why I should be denied under my circumstances. I have consulted with my fellow officers and they too were questioning why I was rejected. And don't worry bones21, no need to be "scared" about my inquisition. I merely wanted to hear some opinions from my fellow AR15.com members on the situation. Calls have been made and my dilema will be straightened out Monday. Thanks for the info folks.... |
Actually, while it scares some that you are asking, I applaud you for SEEKING the education on the matter for when it happens to a comrade or any other reason you might value the information. If only more LEOs would be more inquisitive instead of having the 'I'm LEO, I'm exempt from this' I think they would be more welcome by people. Just like one time an LEO arrested a friend of mine for having an AR15 (December 04) stamped LEO Restricted, but since the officer didnt' want to ask how he could possess it, he falsely arrested him, and subsequently made an ass of himself, and the city settled out of court for defamation of character. Not to mention, people flaming the guy for ASKING why, people are told that NCIS is foolproof, this will not happen, it is an honest question why he would be denied, even with peace officer status. I was denied on my last AR15 purchase, I asked him to call it in again, and magically approved, so just a hiccup from our alcoholic gubmint. |
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For those who keep nailing him for asking here instead of misusing the resources made available to him by his agency, it's in no way foolproof. I can think of several here who woluld also have fits if he accessed his own information through the office for personal use. My job is to screw with NCIC and criminal history checks all the time, and the thing is nowhere near perfect Give the guy a break. |
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the only thing I can think of is, it is either a screw up.......the FFL may have transposed a number when calling it in, or the person punching in the number transposed a number........or a remote possibility is a ID theft. In the early days of NICS, they called back a dealer friend of mine, told him that a purchase they had initially approved was now denied, and that HE had to get the gun back from the buyer. He asked for particulars, and it turned out it was a pistol he'd sold to his MOTHER. They said the SSN came back as a guy in the state prison. He told them, "My mother is a woman, and lives down the street. I would have noticed is Mom was a man. And why is she here in town if you say she is in prison?" Turns out they had transposed numbers when entering the SSN. |
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I've had a couple cops get flagged in the past. 1. Had a contempt of court filed against him for failure to appear. He didn't even know about it and it was weeks later. He missed a court date and the judge hosed him. 2. Had a restraining order filed against him by his wife. She claimed domestic abuse but never filed charges officially. Both had to file appeal forms and it took a couple months before they were given approval numbers to purchase. |
I don't want to offend you, but this is the worst advice yet. Gun stores get broken into and robbed all the time. 4473's are usually placed in a cabinet and forgotten until archived, and then really forgotten. Do you really want every employee of the gun shop, his friends, customers standing around or a potential criminal having access to your ssn and related info? How about when the clerk is there by himself and can't afford the time to go in the back to keep your info private? I always tried to safeguard ssn info if I needed it to confirm an identity. Not all people are like that. Kind of like when you'd get pulled over and they had your ssn as your driver license number and the officer would broadcast it on the radio along with everything else in the clear. Anybody with a police scanner could gather that info. I’ve always recommended to people only list your ssn as a last resort. If it's not needed, no big deal. If it is, hope and pray that those who handle it will be as vigilant as you should be in keeping your info safe. Oh, and one other thing. I've had LEO's just get a CCW to bypass the NICS issue if they had a history of getting delayed/denied due to mistaken identity. I think it's sad that active LEO's don't get an automatic walk on the check like CCW's do. But, nobody asked me about it. |
Were you denied, or just delayed? |
CCWs are not exempt from a call in. |
www.atf.gov/firearms/bradylaw/permit_chart.htm |
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Hell, I've been denied on every single NICS checks for the past 5 years (and I have a spotless record)... it does happen. In my situation it's a case of identity theft; someone I know (who knows me), was arrested in another State. When they were booked that person gave my name, DOB and SSN to the police. The person had no matching ID on them but the police took down the info the person gave them anyways, then the person was most likely bailed out before the info could be verified. FTR, there's nothing incorrect or suspect on my credit history, so at least I'm safe in that department. What makes it suck even more, that due to the bureaucracy and privacy laws it's been impossible to correct the situation... I can't find out when, what and where the arrest occurred and have it expunged from my record. I'm a firefighter myself and know many of the cops here. I've known the PO that conducts background checks and investigations here since high school. I had him run a through background check on my personal info and he couldn't turn up anything. Anyhow... what usually happens with me is when I make a firearms purchase and the FFL runs a NICS check, both of us already know ahead of time it's going to come back "denied". The FFL is pretty cool about it even though he knows ahead of time that it's going to mean re-filing paper work. 2 or 3 days later I'll call the dealer up and he'll give me the news. Since MA has all NICS checks go through the FBI, I have to write a brief letter stating the circumstances, date, FFL, etc (it's happened so often that I just keep a pre-written Word template on my computer). One important part to include in the letter is the "NTN" (NICs Transaction Number). This is the confirmation number that the examiner gives the FFL when the info is first called in. I also have to included a set of rolled fingerprint impressions along with the letter (I keep on reusing the same set over and over... the first set had so many FBI date stamps and sigs on the back that I had to have a second set made up). A couple weeks after you mail in the info you should receive a confirmation letter that they got your packet and will be processing it. Time varies as to when you'll actually receive a letter to procceed stating that you are not the person prohibited from purchasing a firearm and that it's okay for the FFL to proceed with the sale... I've gotten it back in as little as three weeks. The longest was about 6-7 weeks. The letter is only good at the gun shop where you were denied. Even if you've changed your mind during the waiting period, you still have to bring the letter to the FFL; otherwise his records make it look like a prohibited person tried to illegally purchase a firearm. The letter is attached to the denied 4473. If it's more than 30 days, the FFL then has to conduct another NICS check and get a new NTN. Make sure the FFL explains situation to the examiner and gives them the original NTN and that they (the FFL), has a letter of approval. It's such a pain in the ass that I plan all my firearms purchases around it; say I'm planning on buying 3-4 guns over the next 6-8 months, rather than going through the same BS 3-4 times, I use the approval letter I got and buy the 3-4 guns at the same time. The letter is only good once, but you can make multiple purchases on it. Good luck... |
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LoginName: You can "fix" that by filing a Voluntary Appeal File with the FBI. www.fbi.gov/hq/cjisd/nics/vafbrocheng.htm |
I know. For now I'd prefer to deal with the hassles rather than have the FBI retain my records. |
Are you saying that after the FBI reviews your denial and issues a letter they destroy your file? Have you tried to clear the records up with the LEA that submitted the incorrect info to the FBI? |
That's part of the problem... I can't find out what record(s) keeps popping up that causes the denial. From my understanding... the NICS examiner who handles the background check from the FFL doesn't know what the violation is; they just run the info and either get a proceed, delayed, or denial. I've talked to supervisors in the past and they're no help either. It's a catch 22... because of privacy laws, they can't divulge the info to me because I'm not the one who was arrested. I tried using the FOIA (Freedom of Information Act), to get info, but in order to do that I had to send in fingerprints. When I did that, they wrote back that they have nothing on me in their records. I had a similar problem with an unpaid moving violation in NJ (I've never even been in NJ). My MA license was suspended bcause of the unpaid NJ ticket. I was able to find out the issueing authority. I called them and expalined the situation (someone using my personal info was pulled over, had no ID and the officer that stopped them took down their verbal info and let them go). I needed to find out the make and license plate of the car written on the ticket so I could find out the owner of the car, but because I wasn't the owner of the car and not the driver, the NJ offical couldn't give me any of the ticket info. |
Don't let the ball-busting turn you off from this site. You can pretty much ask any question and someone will find room for criticism.  You may want to ask in the Brothers of the Shielf forum as well. FWIW, I'm sure it's a little 'glitch in the Matrix'. Probably someone with a similar name. Before I got my Green Card I was denied many times. It took me 6 months the first time of letter-writing back and forth to the NICS Appeals Services Unit to get things cleared up. It's a long time for a semi-auto rifle. Was the check run through the state or federal? If it's federal then you will likely have to file an appeal to the NICS Appeals Services Unit and you'll need the NTN# (IIRC, NICS Transaction Number) and email NICS for the reason you were denied. You can also mail them a letter asking for the reason they rejected you but email is faster. |
Good man. 
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They are in AZ, it's one of the reasons I finally got mine, I used to get the 3 day delay every time. |
| Hmm! In Pa . they use your Drivers License Number!! I've always had mine back 4 times faster than the average bear, But then again i'm a Elected Peace Officer and work with delinquent youth at drug and alcohol facility! So i'm pretty much Red flagged due to have backrounds ran regualrly due to my employment. |
They should do that everywhere then. |