Posted: 3/18/2009 2:16:13 PM EDT
| I will have some extra money this year to spen on firearms related stuff. My thinking is to spend it on a quality tactical urban rifle course (would be my first) at some where like Gunsite or Thunder Ranch. If I do this however I will have to take the course with my bone stock Armalite 20 in. or my 16 in carbine. Both are stock except for the rail and cheapie red dot sight on the carbine. I could spend the money on that sexy rail DPMS upper or an ACOG and surefire rail mounted flashlight I've had my eye on but can't do both. So my question is would the money be BETTER spent on cool tactical accessories, or training with basically stock rifles. Is it possible to even attend one of these classes without hot rodded tricked out uber cool tactial assault tools? Was there ever a time when folks actually used open sights in a combat situation? What sayeth the hive? |
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I was in a carbine class a few months ago where one of the guys carried spare mags in his jeans pockets. Another had nothing other than a carry strap for a sling. I shot my first carbine class with nothing but open irons.
Training and trigger time are FAR FAR FAR more valuable than any doo-dads you can bolt on your rifle. |
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It is hands down better to train with stock rifles, then to have fancy shit you've only used to blast at shooting ranges.
I learned this the hard way when I couldn't shoot shit at a WA HTF course taught for free/fun by a member. Thought my fancy optics would make me a better shooter, but instead I shot a shotgun like pattern. Quite embarrassing. Ditched the Eotech and Magnifier, and shot with a carry handle for a year and actually bothered to learn the fundamentals. What you learn in 2k rounds in a rifle course will give you more skills and experience than 100,000K rounds spent goofing off at the range. Firearms instruction is worth its weight in gold. A fancy shmancy rifle or optic will not correct sloppy fundamentals, and certainly will not make you a better shooter. I'd put personal fitness and skill at arms as being more important than gear when it comes to shooting. A fit, well trained person with a basic AR is more deadly than a couch commando with a $2000 Noveske and $1400 ACOG. |
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Quoted:
It is hands down better to train with stock rifles, then to have fancy shit you've only used to blast at shooting ranges. I learned this the hard way when I couldn't shoot shit at a WA HTF course taught for free/fun by a member. Thought my fancy optics would make me a better shooter, but instead I shot a shotgun like pattern. Quite embarrassing. Ditched the Eotech and Magnifier, and shot with a carry handle for a year and actually bothered to learn the fundamentals. What you learn in 2k rounds in a rifle course will give you more skills and experience than 100,000K rounds spent goofing off at the range. Firearms instruction is worth its weight in gold. A fancy shmancy rifle or optic will not correct sloppy fundamentals, and certainly will not make you a better shooter. I'd put personal fitness and skill at arms as being more important than gear when it comes to shooting. A fit, well trained person with a basic AR is more deadly than a couch commando with a $2000 Noveske and $1400 ACOG. So true. j |
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Since the OP is in Florida, I can recommend this facility for training:
Southern Exposure They bring in a number of outstanding national instructors, including adjunct Gunsite instructors. In fact, there is a course coming up shortly: Carbine 1 Instructor: Randy Cain Apr 6-Apr 8 Randy is an excellent instructor and I have taken several of his courses over the years. |
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Quoted:
It is hands down better to train with stock rifles, then to have fancy shit you've only used to blast at shooting ranges. I learned this the hard way when I couldn't shoot shit at a WA HTF course taught for free/fun by a member. Thought my fancy optics would make me a better shooter, but instead I shot a shotgun like pattern. Quite embarrassing. Ditched the Eotech and Magnifier, and shot with a carry handle for a year and actually bothered to learn the fundamentals. What you learn in 2k rounds in a rifle course will give you more skills and experience than 100,000K rounds spent goofing off at the range. Firearms instruction is worth its weight in gold. A fancy shmancy rifle or optic will not correct sloppy fundamentals, and certainly will not make you a better shooter. I'd put personal fitness and skill at arms as being more important than gear when it comes to shooting. A fit, well trained person with a basic AR is more deadly than a couch commando with a $2000 Noveske and $1400 ACOG. You saying I wasted my money? come on I am crippled... cool toys are the only thing i have left!! |
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I may be the only contrarian view, but train with what you fight with. If you intend to run an optic, train with an optic. What the Marine Corps has learn from the train on irons and you can readily go to the fight with an RCO is that is it totally false. Marines didn't know how to use their optics because, they trained and qualfied with irons and than got their optic prior to deploying and you would see tons of guys shooting at what should have been easy shots missing. This was a larger part of the recent MarAdmin that required you to shoot with your issue optic on all ranges from now one.
I fought with both irons and optics on guns before, if your gun looses its optic it in the degraded mode. Even at across room range while shooting and moving at a target shooting back and moving, an optic is an order of magnitude easier to hit with and you still may miss. |
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Quoted:
It is hands down better to train with stock rifles, then to have fancy shit you've only used to blast at shooting ranges. I learned this the hard way when I couldn't shoot shit at a WA HTF course taught for free/fun by a member. Thought my fancy optics would make me a better shooter, but instead I shot a shotgun like pattern. Quite embarrassing. Ditched the Eotech and Magnifier, and shot with a carry handle for a year and actually bothered to learn the fundamentals. What you learn in 2k rounds in a rifle course will give you more skills and experience than 100,000K rounds spent goofing off at the range. Firearms instruction is worth its weight in gold. A fancy shmancy rifle or optic will not correct sloppy fundamentals, and certainly will not make you a better shooter. I'd put personal fitness and skill at arms as being more important than gear when it comes to shooting. A fit, well trained person with a basic AR is more deadly than a couch commando with a $2000 Noveske and $1400 ACOG. 100% agree with that |
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I may be the only contrarian view, but train with what you fight with. If you intend to run an optic, train with an optic. What the Marine Corps has learn from the train on irons and you can readily go to the fight with an RCO is that is it totally false. Marines didn't know how to use their optics because, they trained and qualfied with irons and than got their optic prior to deploying and you would see tons of guys shooting at what should have been easy shots missing. This was a larger part of the recent MarAdmin that required you to shoot with your issue optic on all ranges from now one. I fought with both irons and optics on guns before, if your gun looses its optic it in the degraded mode. Even at across room range while shooting and moving at a target shooting back and moving, an optic is an order of magnitude easier to hit with and you still may miss. Good points, but the question was training OR new gear, not what gear to train with. That being said, if money is an issue just go with the training and buy a less expensive optic. There are many options short of a NIB $600 uber-optic. |
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I will have some extra money this year to spen on firearms related stuff. My thinking is to spend it on a quality tactical urban rifle course (would be my first) at some where like Gunsite or Thunder Ranch. If I do this however I will have to take the course with my bone stock Armalite 20 in. or my 16 in carbine. Both are stock except for the rail and cheapie red dot sight on the carbine. I could spend the money on that sexy rail DPMS upper or an ACOG and surefire rail mounted flashlight I've had my eye on but can't do both. So my question is would the money be BETTER spent on cool tactical accessories, or training with basically stock rifles. Is it possible to even attend one of these classes without hot rodded tricked out uber cool tactial assault tools? Was there ever a time when folks actually used open sights in a combat situation? What sayeth the hive? My advice would be this: Givin the current political and economic climate I would suggest investing in ammunition, magazines, and spare parts for your rifle. If you feel comfortable already with the aforementioned items than I would purchase the rail as I know this type of item could be excluded through an AWB. The sight and optic are less important since they'll be around for some time as I don't see them banning flashlights or scopes. So I would take that money you would have spent on an ACOG and surefire and spend it on the course and ammo for it, but get the rail splitting the difference. I mean for the price of the ACOG new you could easily get into a three day carbine course this summer and for the price of a good surefire light you can get fairly decent ammo to run in it which will be about 1,000 to 1,500 rounds...you'll at least get close to it. If you want purchase an alternative to the ACOG that is less expensive. I wouldn't worry about not training with the ACOG though during a course. The important thing is the learning of the manual of arms and the basic firing positions along with direct action drills to clear malfunctions and proper reloads none of which are changed when you change optics. |
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I will have some extra money this year to spen on firearms related stuff. My thinking is to spend it on a quality tactical urban rifle course (would be my first) at some where like Gunsite or Thunder Ranch. If I do this however I will have to take the course with my bone stock Armalite 20 in. or my 16 in carbine. Both are stock except for the rail and cheapie red dot sight on the carbine. I did the majority of my carbine training with an iron sighted rifle. Is it ideal? No, but it's still plenty viable. After learning to properly use the irons using a red dot will be a piece of cake for you. I could spend the money on that sexy rail DPMS upper Friends don't let friends buy DPMS. or an ACOG and surefire rail mounted flashlight I've had my eye on but can't do both. You *should* do the light...a Surefire G2 works splendidly as a weapon light when mounted via a VLTOR mount on something like a Midwest Industries mount that goes on a stock front sight base. Much better option, in my opinion, than the super-expensive Surefires. So my question is would the money be BETTER spent on cool tactical accessories, or training with basically stock rifles. T-R-A-I-N-I-N-G. Knowledge is more important than equipment, and will actually help you make good equipment choices. Is it possible to even attend one of these classes without hot rodded tricked out uber cool tactial assault tools? YES. As I said, most of the time I've spent in carbine training has been with an iron-sighted A2 carbine with a cheap Surefire light mounted on it. Red dots are easier to use (especially in low light) but if it's a choice between training or no training and an Aimpoint, I'd rather have the training. |
| I"m a small arms instructor for the CG and can shoot expert on the M-16, I have taken a course in MOUT training at Lejeune. I still feel inadaquate with my AR. It's not super uber tacitcool. It has some magpul stuff and a free float +VFG and a reflex sight on a goose neck mount. I would really like to learn how to EFFECTIVELY use this while actively engaging target after target. Where are some places near SE GA that I could go to? Any recommendations? Also, How many rounds do you need for these classes? I'm trying to figure out how much 1k of ammo and a class would cost me. Sorry for the hijack. |
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I think it is worth taking a basic class before buying a lot of stuff.
It saves you from spending money on stuff you later abandon I bought lots of dumb stuff that did not work out 4xior scop Weesatch with no plates Drop leg holster Drop leg mag carrier Cheap eletronic muffs Over priced knee pads I could have gotten at lowes Edit ask new arguy about classes in florida/ga. Usually I want at least 2k rifle and 500 pistol Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile |
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Thanks to all who replied. I feel training is more important. I think I may be a little intimidated because every time I see an article on one of these courses everyone has tricked out rifles. I am already stocking on ammo and will spend the $ on the course. Maybe the pictures show tricked out rifles because the training companies are trying to attract guys who have the money to spend on tricked out rifles. Doesn't mean you'll be any more/less effective with a KISS one. |
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I'm not sure this will mean the same thing to you as it does me, but remember that kid you knew who had the perfect Gibson Les Paul, 100 watt Marshall stack, and all the best of goodies to go with it that couldn't play his way out of a freaking paper bag?
I do. I had a borrowed Peavey guitar and a rented Peavey POS amp. I played that thing for 6 hours a day, until I got one of my own, and the one I got sucked. But I still kept playing. I ended up semi-famous (at least in the style of music I played) and a really solid player. (Haven't touched it since I "retired", but I was good when I played, and yes, I did eventually get decent gear :) It's like that. Do the training course with what you have and practice as much as you can on your own and you'll end up being the best you are capable of being. Good equipment does not magically confer skill. Good training does. |
Some do fairly well by simply learning how to shoot. There is NO substitute for firing thousands of rounds. No weekend course or fancy rifle will make you as skilled as putting thousands of rounds downrange (at marksmanship––tactics need to be learned in a formal setting, but tactics and marksmanship are two different breeds of cat). 
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Since the OP is in Florida, I can recommend this facility for training: Southern Exposure They bring in a number of outstanding national instructors, including adjunct Gunsite instructors. In fact, there is a course coming up shortly: Carbine 1 Instructor: Randy Cain Apr 6-Apr 8 Randy is an excellent instructor and I have taken several of his courses over the years. +1 |
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I would strongly recommend tactical response over gunsite or thunder ranch. Much cheaper and IMHO better. I have not been to gunsite or thunder ranch but tactical response is a very good class. Quick question: If you've never been to Gunsite or TR, how do you know TR is "better"?? |
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I would strongly recommend tactical response over gunsite or thunder ranch. Much cheaper and IMHO better. I have not been to gunsite or thunder ranch but tactical response is a very good class. Seriously? At least say you can only recommend one since you haven't attended all of them - How can you say one is better than another? I've been to Thunder Ranch three times. I'd be the first to admit I can't compare it to Gunsite or Tactical Response - but I can tell you that every trip to TR has been a first class experience. So much so that I am signed up for my fourth trip there in May. Here's the report from '08: http://www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=9&f=19&t=226824 And '07 (archived): http://www.ar15.com/archive/topic.html?b=8&f=36&t=269165 |
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Quoted: Quoted: I would strongly recommend tactical response over gunsite or thunder ranch. Much cheaper and IMHO better. I have not been to gunsite or thunder ranch but tactical response is a very good class. Quick question: If you've never been to Gunsite or TR, how do you know TR is "better"?? Superior marketing duh, lol Training schools have the same problem as video game consoles. The target audience generally can't afford all of them, so there are fanboys a many. It seems to me that most schools run by professionals come to the same conclusions though.
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Gunsite -Basic Carbine
We went through about 1,100 rounds rifle and 30 pistol(just transitions) over the week. Great ranges and indoor outdoor simulators. Got my AR's 2 position stock drilled to make it a 4 overnight by their on-site gunsmith. 
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Good points, but the question was training OR new gear, not what gear to train with. That being said, if money is an issue just go with the training and buy a less expensive optic. There are many options short of a NIB $600 uber-optic. I think TIR put it best, the answer is not whether to get gear or training, it is training with your fighting gear, does not matter if it is high speed gear or basic gear but train with what you fight with. |