[ARCHIVED THREAD] - H&K MP7 (Page 1 of 3)
Posted: 10/30/2011 5:37:47 PM EDT
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Not to into the tiny 4.6x30mm round it fires. But it sure is a cool design. The ARS Helmet Visor Stock is MP5,MP7 and K.P.O.S.
The K.P.O.S is a kit for putting a stock and foregrip on a pistol: http://www.fab-defense.com/en/id-206/pistol-to-pdw-convesrsion.html 
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Why should I care? I'm not getting the point of this firearm. 20 years ago NATO wanted a PDW. This was one of the results. The only other one I can think of is the FN P90. Any others? Looks like there are many others but few have made it into wide spread use. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Personal_defense_weapon |
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Why should I care? I'm not getting the point of this firearm. If there has to be a purpose to every firearm designed/produced to your need and your need alone, how many would be actually made and sold? Of course not. Its just another H&K wonder weapon that leaves me scratching my head, going"Why?' It's marginally smaller than an M4, which will defeat the same armor this pipsqueak round will, with no ammo availability issues. |
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Why should I care? I'm not getting the point of this firearm. Body armor defeating PDW. I suspect the round is probably lacking in performance against soft targets. Seeing as the cunts we're fighting now (for the most part) dont wear armor, I'd just assume have an MP5 with JHPs. Although, I'm sure the HSLD guys kill people who wear armor, so they probably like stuff like this, or maybe the P90, since ammo is probably a little easier to get. ETA: Disclaimer: I don't really know much when it comes to PDW's this is purely speculation/talking out of my ass based on EXTREMELY limited experience. 
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Link no work. Though, to be honest, I'm expecting another article where its explained the PDW concept is a failure because its not a ninja-death-ray. 
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Link no work. Though, to be honest, I'm expecting another article where its explained the PDW concept is a failure because its not a ninja-death-ray. Link works for me. |
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Why should I care? I'm not getting the point of this firearm. It makes almost no noise when suppressed. ...which means if you're trying to get to a hostage being guarded by a dude with an RPK, you can shoot the guard sleeping outside the room in the head without alerting the guy inside. Then when you and a couple of other guys bust into the room and put half a mag a piece into his face he dies nice and surprised before he can shoot at you. Plus they're light and very compact. That's generally their appeal...not so much the terminal ballistics. If you're doing the kind of work that involves going into a room of a mud hut with 3 or 4 of your best mates and firing lots of rounds into a bad guy's face, terminal ballistics becomes a moot point. Of the extant PDW's, the MP7 is the most robust, reliable, and I think easy to use. (My trigger time on one is very limited) The KAC PDW...should it ever materialize...would be a better choice. |
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I don't know why the author of that compared apples to oranges: He states that since a P90 or MP7 may be used to engage targets at >100m it's valid to compare their rounds to 5.56 fired from a rifle length barrel but that misses the entire point of the guns. If everybody had a 5.56 or 7.62 weapon,there would be no need for a PDW and the PDW was meant to replace pistols which regardless of how many times it gets said,somehow gets ignored. While both the MP7 and especially P90 have found a home with special operations type forces,the original intent was a firearm to replace pistols for people who would not normally need a rifle. Part of this requirement was to be significantly smaller than a NATO battle/assault rifle that would be easier to shoot and more effective than a pistol. It also needed the ability to defeat body armor as the enemy of the day were Warsaw Pact troops - especially taking into account that a large part of Soviet docterine would have been paratroop assaults on people on would otherwise have had only a 9mm pistol with which to defend themselves. 9mm no worky on body armor. If you get the chance to fire a PS-90 the entire concept makes sense,even onlt being semi-auto. It's not just easier to shoot than a pistol by far,hand one to a new shooter and they have no problem at all hitting any and everything. The people the guns were designed for weren't those whose primary job was to pull triggers. It has very little recoil and even as an SBR is fairly quiet. 5.56 out of an 8" barrel - which IMO is the only fair way to compare an AR platform vs an MP7 or P90 - is downright brutal in terms of noise and flash and the velocity drops significantly lower than his quoted 3100 FPS,down below reliable fragmentation velocity. It's not a powerhouse to begin with but I'd rather take my chances with 50 rounds of 5.7 than 8 of .45 or 17 of 9mm,especially if a bad person is shooting at me 75 yards away with an AK-74. There's this notion on here that both of them were supposed to be wonder weapons and I've seen the term "death ray" used several times.It's pure idiocity to think something that was meant to replace P35 Brownings and Walther P1's etc is in any way a pocket sized MAG or MG3. Are there more powerful rounds,more accurate,longer ranging etc etc etc platforms? Absolutely but they're a tool in the toolbox sort of thing for most that use them. The standard cry is quoting one Florida SWAT officer who claims that a suspect asked them to stop shooting him with 5.7 but I'm going to go out on a limb that the SEALs probably shoot a few more people on a day to day basis and they use the MP7. Maybe the Taliban ask them to stop shooting them with 4.6 and they just can't understand them. I have no earthly idea how frequently they encounter jihadis wearing body armor but I doubt that it's very often.Other than pillaged US and French armor,I've never seen pics of them wearing it but I'm sure that some have,no idea...but I don't see the SEALs using the things - or other SF around the world using the MP7 or P90 - if they didn't actually work.Regardless of how well the rounds available to us peons are,I don't see taking 4-5 5.7 or 4.6 rounds to the torso as being a good day. 
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Having used one, its nice to carry, but quickly lost favor. Had an incident where it failed to penetrate on center mass shots on a person wearing an AK magazine chest rack. According to HK relayed by my guys who went to Germany for a fam, the MP7 was designed for rear echelon members who were required to have a weapon so they didn't have to carry a full size long gun. Cooks, admin, etc. Suppressed its quiet as hell and fun to shoot but IMO lacks stopping power unless head shots only.
Even going to the range unless you hit 6" head plates at the very top, it takes 2-3 shots to knock the plate over. |
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The standard cry is quoting one Florida SWAT officer who claims that a suspect asked them to stop shooting him with 5.7 but I'm going to go out on a limb that the SEALs probably shoot a few more people on a day to day basis and they use the MP7. The applications by people like NSWG are very different than the applications by LE. The different mission of a group like NSWG combined with their unique methods of using a particular tool can make it very effective for their specific tasks...but that doesn't mean it's any better for a different group working with different ROE and TTPs. |
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Why should I care? I'm not getting the point of this firearm. If there has to be a purpose to every firearm designed/produced to your need and your need alone, how many would be actually made and sold? Of course not. Its just another H&K wonder weapon that leaves me scratching my head, going"Why?' It's marginally smaller than an M4, which will defeat the same armor this pipsqueak round will, with no ammo availability issues. Try half as large as an M4. |
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Have not tried the MP-7 yet....but the P-90 is titties!!!! So, you hates it? 
Don't be silly. Everyone loves boobies even if they like penises more. Yeah...it's kind of a chili with beans thing. Sounds more like a frank with beans thing. |
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Why should I care? I'm not getting the point of this firearm. If there has to be a purpose to every firearm designed/produced to your need and your need alone, how many would be actually made and sold? Of course not. Its just another H&K wonder weapon that leaves me scratching my head, going"Why?' It's marginally smaller than an M4, which will defeat the same armor this pipsqueak round will, with no ammo availability issues. Try half as large as an M4. Not with a suppressor on it, look at the picture above.. Suppressed seems to be the only justifiable reason for it. If your not trying to be quiet, whats the point? |
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Why should I care? I'm not getting the point of this firearm. It makes almost no noise when suppressed. ...which means if you're trying to get to a hostage being guarded by a dude with an RPK, you can shoot the guard sleeping outside the room in the head without alerting the guy inside. Then when you and a couple of other guys bust into the room and put half a mag a piece into his face he dies nice and surprised before he can shoot at you. Plus they're light and very compact. That's generally their appeal...not so much the terminal ballistics. If you're doing the kind of work that involves going into a room of a mud hut with 3 or 4 of your best mates and firing lots of rounds into a bad guy's face, terminal ballistics becomes a moot point. Of the extant PDW's, the MP7 is the most robust, reliable, and I think easy to use. (My trigger time on one is very limited) The KAC PDW...should it ever materialize...would be a better choice. Is there a subsonic version,because the ammo I see for it is 2000 fps+? Hardly discreet. I have serious doubts a subsonic round will perform on armor like this thing is supposed to. |
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Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Why should I care? I'm not getting the point of this firearm. If there has to be a purpose to every firearm designed/produced to your need and your need alone, how many would be actually made and sold? Of course not. Its just another H&K wonder weapon that leaves me scratching my head, going"Why?' It's marginally smaller than an M4, which will defeat the same armor this pipsqueak round will, with no ammo availability issues. Try half as large as an M4. Not with a suppressor on it, look at the picture above.. Suppressed seems to be the only justifiable reason for it. If your not trying to be quiet, whats the point? So, to keep things equal, suppress your M4. Now how much smaller is the MP7? How much quieter? |
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Have not tried the MP-7 yet....but the P-90 is titties!!!! So, you hates it?
Don't be silly. Everyone loves boobies even if they like penises more. Yeah...it's kind of a chili with beans thing. Sounds more like a frank with beans thing. Well......I wasn't going to go there.
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Have not tried the MP-7 yet....but the P-90 is titties!!!! So, you hates it?
Don't be silly. Everyone loves boobies even if they like penises more. Yeah...it's kind of a chili with beans thing. Sounds more like a frank with beans thing. I've seen pictures of chicks guys people like that. And then there's this fellow...
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Why should I care? I'm not getting the point of this firearm. If there has to be a purpose to every firearm designed/produced to your need and your need alone, how many would be actually made and sold? Of course not. Its just another H&K wonder weapon that leaves me scratching my head, going"Why?' It's marginally smaller than an M4, which will defeat the same armor this pipsqueak round will, with no ammo availability issues. Try half as large as an M4. Not with a suppressor on it, look at the picture above.. Suppressed seems to be the only justifiable reason for it. If your not trying to be quiet, whats the point? So, to keep things equal, suppress your M4. Now how much smaller is the MP7? How much quieter? My point is that the only role anyone can seem to justify for it in, it it's size is negated and not any real benefit. Why didn't the integrally suppress it? will it REALLY be that quiet using supersonic ammo? |
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Having used one, its nice to carry, but quickly lost favor. Had an incident where it failed to penetrate on center mass shots on a person wearing an AK magazine chest rack. According to HK relayed by my guys who went to Germany for a fam, the MP7 was designed for rear echelon members who were required to have a weapon so they didn't have to carry a full size long gun. Cooks, admin, etc. Suppressed its quiet as hell and fun to shoot but IMO lacks stopping power unless head shots only. Even going to the range unless you hit 6" head plates at the very top, it takes 2-3 shots to knock the plate over. Shush you, can't you see experts are debating the merits? Don't try to use your "real world experience" like it matters, we have video gamers here! |
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Why should I care? I'm not getting the point of this firearm. If there has to be a purpose to every firearm designed/produced to your need and your need alone, how many would be actually made and sold? Of course not. Its just another H&K wonder weapon that leaves me scratching my head, going"Why?' It's marginally smaller than an M4, which will defeat the same armor this pipsqueak round will, with no ammo availability issues. Try half as large as an M4. Not with a suppressor on it, look at the picture above.. Suppressed seems to be the only justifiable reason for it. If your not trying to be quiet, whats the point? The point is a small, lightweight weapon with a relatively large magazine capacity, a high rate of fire, the ability to penetrate body armor, and greater range than a handgun. Basically, a cross between a handgun and a rifle, resulting in an effective close range weapon. Why do you find that hard to understand? By your logic, the M4 you're touting also has no "purpose" because it's not as lethal as bigger, heavier weapons available. |
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holy crap, the bullet is painted black. Must be one of those "BANNED last ones EVER get them before they're GONE" black talon rounds that are at every gun show. I was hoping the keyboard would give it some scale... Its a tiny lil fucker but I wouldn't want to be peppered with one. Very controllable even on auto. It was very easy to keep your sting on steel with very little effort. |
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Why should I care? I'm not getting the point of this firearm. If there has to be a purpose to every firearm designed/produced to your need and your need alone, how many would be actually made and sold? Of course not. Its just another H&K wonder weapon that leaves me scratching my head, going"Why?' It's marginally smaller than an M4, which will defeat the same armor this pipsqueak round will, with no ammo availability issues. Try half as large as an M4. Not with a suppressor on it, look at the picture above.. Suppressed seems to be the only justifiable reason for it. If your not trying to be quiet, whats the point? The point is a small, lightweight weapon with a relatively large magazine capacity, a high rate of fire, the ability to penetrate body armor, and greater range than a handgun. Basically, a cross between a handgun and a rifle, resulting in an effective close range weapon. Why do you find that hard to understand? By your logic, the M4 you're touting has no "purpose" because it's not as lethal as a .50 BMG rifle. It fills the same role the M1 Carbine was intended for in WWII. |
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Why should I care? I'm not getting the point of this firearm. If there has to be a purpose to every firearm designed/produced to your need and your need alone, how many would be actually made and sold? Of course not. Its just another H&K wonder weapon that leaves me scratching my head, going"Why?' It's marginally smaller than an M4, which will defeat the same armor this pipsqueak round will, with no ammo availability issues. Try half as large as an M4. Not with a suppressor on it, look at the picture above.. Suppressed seems to be the only justifiable reason for it. If your not trying to be quiet, whats the point? The point is a small, lightweight weapon with a relatively large magazine capacity, a high rate of fire, the ability to penetrate body armor, and greater range than a handgun. Basically, a cross between a handgun and a rifle, resulting in an effective close range weapon. Why do you find that hard to understand? By your logic, the M4 you're touting has no "purpose" because it's not as lethal as a .50 BMG rifle. Not at all, your just exaggerating. The M4 is a superior weapon and this offers nothing that it's price tag and obscurity justify. This is really just H&K trying to come up with something to justify agency's replacing MP5's with this thing. I think it failed. |
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If HK marketed a semiauto factory SBR here in the US, I would buy one. Why? You won't be allowed to buy the super secret cop killer bullets.I realize you need know reason, and that's good enough. With so many other interesting things on the market, I wonder what makes this desirable to you. |
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Why should I care? I'm not getting the point of this firearm. If there has to be a purpose to every firearm designed/produced to your need and your need alone, how many would be actually made and sold? Of course not. Its just another H&K wonder weapon that leaves me scratching my head, going"Why?' It's marginally smaller than an M4, which will defeat the same armor this pipsqueak round will, with no ammo availability issues. Try half as large as an M4. Not with a suppressor on it, look at the picture above.. Suppressed seems to be the only justifiable reason for it. If your not trying to be quiet, whats the point? The point is a small, lightweight weapon with a relatively large magazine capacity, a high rate of fire, the ability to penetrate body armor, and greater range than a handgun. Basically, a cross between a handgun and a rifle, resulting in an effective close range weapon. Why do you find that hard to understand? By your logic, the M4 you're touting has no "purpose" because it's not as lethal as a .50 BMG rifle. Not at all, your just exaggerating. The M4 is a superior weapon and this offers nothing that it's price tag and obscurity justify. This is really just H&K trying to come up with something to justify agency's replacing MP5's with this thing. I think it failed. HK tried to replace the MP5 with the UMP and that really didn't work so well. This is another kettle of fish: NATO was supposed to have a PDW round/platform and the Germans decided to be different,the MP7 is the result. As somebody said,they're modern M1 carbines. Like the carbine,they fall short when used in leiu of a real rifle but that's where they're largely getting used...place blame on that one where you see fit. |
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The problem with this article is that the author compared both platforms with 5.56mm platform, i.e. AR15 type. These PDW's were never intended to replace or compete with a rifle or carbine, but to bridge the gap between rifle and pistol. Had he compared them to a pistol platform the outcome would be different. These weapons are intended to be used where a carbine would be impractical, such as a Secret Service Detail or low key PSD. |
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If HK marketed a semiauto factory SBR here in the US, I would buy one. Why? You won't be allowed to buy the super secret cop killer bullets.I realize you need know reason, and that's good enough. With so many other interesting things on the market, I wonder what makes this desirable to you. Because it looks cool. |