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Posted: 11/23/2022 9:40:42 AM EST
[#1]
Quote HistoryQuoted: This is essentially what I was getting at in my post but OP is a genius and already knows everything, he doesn't need input from us dumbfuck guys on the internet. He only posted this thread for attaboys and pats on the back, not actual input into his super smart business decision. He'll fit right in with all the other guys who start a gun company, act like a childish prick to anyone who dares criticize their product, fail epically once the whole community realizes they're a douchebag, and then try again under a different name after they've successfully ruined their own reputation. None of us guys on the internet have ever been machinists, built a firearms manufacturing business, or managed the marketing for a custom rifle builder. We wouldn't know all the pitfalls. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: JFC, do you guys even read the threads? I OWN A TOOL AND DIE COMPANY, We Make STAMPING DIES AND MOLDS. I have 13 CNC mills and lathes, not counting all of the other machinery we have. I'd say I have a far better idea what it take to make the damn parts than the average guy. LOL. New to GD?  You're talking my language. I wish I had bandwidth to pursue stuff like this. People not in the industry don't understand. It isn't magic. But it does take a lot of experience and some talent to make a go of the type of project laid out in the op. Far from impossible for the right group. Pipe dream for the average shop with average people and little exposure to firearm type technology. Firearms are a special niche. And there is a shit ton of stuff to know. I really wish OP well, but I think he is headed for a headache if he seriously attempts this. He should know measuring extant parts does not mean he has all the nominal dimensions or tolerances. He could build a gun that measures down the the thousandth for each component from one example and still have an unreliable firearm. This is essentially what I was getting at in my post but OP is a genius and already knows everything, he doesn't need input from us dumbfuck guys on the internet. He only posted this thread for attaboys and pats on the back, not actual input into his super smart business decision. He'll fit right in with all the other guys who start a gun company, act like a childish prick to anyone who dares criticize their product, fail epically once the whole community realizes they're a douchebag, and then try again under a different name after they've successfully ruined their own reputation. None of us guys on the internet have ever been machinists, built a firearms manufacturing business, or managed the marketing for a custom rifle builder. We wouldn't know all the pitfalls. I don't see reverse engineering a sample size of 1 being great for making functional copies of something, especially if you don't have the original technical data package to start from. The amount of trial and error to get the tolerances right can be a bit eye opening. I wouldn't have even made a post like this until took a pile of guns of interest and ran them through the internal ringers of manufacturability and reliability too. That would probably give you a pretty clear top 3 or 5 products to then get some community feedback on. Given how many companies I've seen attempt this over the years and go absolutely nowhere, starting out asking something firing from the hip in GD then getting butthurt over snark or honest comments doesn't bode well IMHO. You can ignore comments or you can succinctly address them and hopefully inform in the process. Going balls out full retard screaming and windmilling at people is a poor long term move. It will only cause more people to pile into the fray to troll, poke, or be edgelords all while turning off a substantial number of people too. |
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Posted: 11/23/2022 9:46:24 AM EST
[#2]
Quote HistoryQuoted: To be fair, I would buy a 9mm bolt action, but with a target price of $1000 or less. And Norinco made the M305 (an M1A in 7.62x39 that takes AK mags), so it can absolutely be done. And I would possibly buy it, but would prefer if it was 5.56 and took AR mags. Basically upscale Minis that took the "right" mags. I'll add that the DeLisle is also a good idea. I'll also add that brining back the Timberwolf would fill that pump action/PCC niche that currently isn't filled |
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Posted: 11/23/2022 9:56:59 AM EST
[#3]
Quote HistoryQuoted: WHY DOES THIS THING KEEP POPPING UP AROUND THE WEB??? I'm thinking it's either a conspiracy or this has gotten into our subconscious and it's turning into that kind of deal like when a bunch of women hang out together too long and all start menstruating at the same time! |
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Posted: 11/23/2022 10:01:22 AM EST
[#4]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Unless I missed it in a follow-on post the OP didn't really talk about design either. Just manufacturing. Design for function and reliability is also a thing too and something you need to balance during your systems engineering process. Great, OP has a lot of CNC machines and machinists. Can they design anything or are they just build to print? What about non-visible upgrades to make the gun a little easier to produce or operate without really messing with the overall package? Changes in materials or finishes have come a long way too. I don't see reverse engineering a sample size of 1 being great for making functional copies of something, especially if you don't have the original technical data package to start from. The amount of trial and error to get the tolerances right can be a bit eye opening. I wouldn't have even made a post like this until took a pile of guns of interest and ran them through the internal ringers of manufacturability and reliability too. That would probably give you a pretty clear top 3 or 5 products to then get some community feedback on. Given how many companies I've seen attempt this over the years and go absolutely nowhere, starting out asking something firing from the hip in GD then getting butthurt over snark or honest comments doesn't bode well IMHO. You can ignore comments or you can succinctly address them and hopefully inform in the process. Going balls out full retard screaming and windmilling at people is a poor long term move. It will only cause more people to pile into the fray to troll, poke, or be edgelords all while turning off a substantial number of people too. Op said toolmakers, not machinists. There's a difference.  Tolerancing isn't trial and error. There are industry standard charts. |
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Posted: 11/23/2022 10:14:54 AM EST
[#5]
Quote HistoryQuoted: This thread is the first time I've heard of it.  Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: The Mini-14 with AK mags made me think of another possible contender, though nowhere near as exotic as your original options. The SKS-D. SKSs aren't exactly fancy, but I personally prefer them over the AK. They just feel more solid. Having a new production SKS that takes AK mags would be rather nice, as the original D versions seem almost impossible to find. Just an idle thought I wanted to throw out there. That's actually pretty neat!  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=byeMLdt2r-INow if the Supreme Court would just hurry up and overturn those import bans... WHY DOES THIS THING KEEP POPPING UP AROUND THE WEB??? I'm thinking it's either a conspiracy or this has gotten into our subconscious and it's turning into that kind of deal like when a bunch of women hang out together too long and all start menstruating at the same time! This thread is the first time I've heard of it. Well, get on your ass and stop living life!!! |
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Posted: 11/23/2022 10:16:13 AM EST
[#6]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I like it because I think it's cool. It would be cheaper to feed than a 7.62x51, and would fix the major issues I have with the Mini-30. I get it that any domestically produced version isn't going to be 600 bucks like the Norinco one, but if the cost is reasonable, I think there might be a market for it. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: WHY DOES THIS THING KEEP POPPING UP AROUND THE WEB??? I'm thinking it's either a conspiracy or this has gotten into our subconscious and it's turning into that kind of deal like when a bunch of women hang out together too long and all start menstruating at the same time! I like it because I think it's cool. It would be cheaper to feed than a 7.62x51, and would fix the major issues I have with the Mini-30. I get it that any domestically produced version isn't going to be 600 bucks like the Norinco one, but if the cost is reasonable, I think there might be a market for it. Oh, yeah, it's totally cool and I'd be up for one up to say $1k? |
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Posted: 11/23/2022 10:22:40 AM EST
[#7]
What about a MAS 49/56 in 7.62 NATO that doesn't blow up in your face? And takes M14 mags! Or modded ones, anyway.
 
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Posted: 11/23/2022 10:38:43 AM EST
[#8]
You could do the AR-16. The gun Stoner designed that was redesigned from 308 to 223 yielding the AR18.
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Posted: 11/23/2022 11:04:24 AM EST
[#9]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Oh, yeah, it's totally cool and I'd be up for one up to say $1k? |
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Posted: 11/23/2022 11:10:17 AM EST
[#10]
Quote HistoryQuoted: For redoing classic firearms why not a FAL in 5.56 that takes AR mags? Not “too” bad on the machining side. Plus build the receiver out of aluminum to make the gun lighter. A company called Williams tried that one. Receivers didn't last long at all from the locking block stresses impacting on the aluminum receiver. It was nicknamed the Williams AlumiBomb. |
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Posted: 11/23/2022 11:10:30 AM EST
[#11]
I look forward to the saga of HMG STG-44 Part Two: Grail Gun Boogaloo.
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Posted: 11/23/2022 12:39:29 PM EST
[#12]
Of the guns listed I think only the SVD has a realistic chance of success. Most people saying they would buy one of these other guns will never pay $5k+. At that price you are well past the "does it take Glock mags?" normies and entering the gun autistic realm. The SVD has that autistic following based on the response to the recent faggotry pulled by MAC.
The worst idea on your list is the Grease Gun. The two main draws for that are full auto and historic US military gun. A newly produced version has neither. Not to mention that while open bolt semi-auto is not illegal, neither are bumpstocks yet the ATF does what it wants regardless. So you either cludge together a closed bolt solution or deal with ATF. I don't follow the Daewoo market but it looks like a K2 sold on Gunraper of all sites for $1899 recently with other sites showing around $3k, so I don't see how a $5k+ US copy can compete unless these prices are anomalous. |
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Posted: 11/23/2022 12:53:03 PM EST
[#13]
IMO Draganov, VSS is pretty much dead here with the russian sanctions on ammo.
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Posted: 11/23/2022 12:53:04 PM EST
[#14]
Quote HistoryQuoted: For the least amount of work, the answer to that would probably be tube guns, like the Sten, Sterling, and Owen SMGs. They would have to be modified to fire from a closed bolt, so that may take some work, but the overall construction looks incredibly simple. I don't know if there's a market for semi-auto Stens, Sterlings, or Owens, but that was the first thing that came to mind for "least amount of work". Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: There is no shortage of subject matter. The question is, which will sell the best for the least amount of work  For the least amount of work, the answer to that would probably be tube guns, like the Sten, Sterling, and Owen SMGs. They would have to be modified to fire from a closed bolt, so that may take some work, but the overall construction looks incredibly simple. I don't know if there's a market for semi-auto Stens, Sterlings, or Owens, but that was the first thing that came to mind for "least amount of work". There are guys who have converted stens to semi with AR based fcg. That would be cheap and expandable. Long, short, pistol, rifle, suppressed, scale up to 45 or down to 22 on the same base design. Simple but interesting. |
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Posted: 11/23/2022 1:00:31 PM EST
[#15]
Quote HistoryQuoted: IMO Draganov, VSS is pretty much dead here with the russian sanctions on ammo. If it's a ground up build do it in 458 or 450 |
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Posted: 11/23/2022 1:57:30 PM EST
[#16]
Quote HistoryQuoted: If it's a ground up build do it in 458 or 450 Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: IMO Draganov, VSS is pretty much dead here with the russian sanctions on ammo. If it's a ground up build do it in 458 or 450 |
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Posted: 11/23/2022 4:16:53 PM EST
[#17]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Of the guns listed I think only the SVD has a realistic chance of success. Most people saying they would buy one of these other guns will never pay $5k+. At that price you are well past the "does it take Glock mags?" normies and entering the gun autistic realm. The SVD has that autistic following based on the response to the recent faggotry pulled by MAC. The worst idea on your list is the Grease Gun. The two main draws for that are full auto and historic US military gun. A newly produced version has neither. Not to mention that while open bolt semi-auto is not illegal, neither are bumpstocks yet the ATF does what it wants regardless. So you either cludge together a closed bolt solution or deal with ATF. I don't follow the Daewoo market but it looks like a K2 sold on Gunraper of all sites for $1899 recently with other sites showing around $3k, so I don't see how a $5k+ US copy can compete unless these prices are anomalous. This is good advice, appreciated. Daewoo would probably need to be about 2K to build a thousand of them. Makes it a little more realistic. |
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Posted: 11/23/2022 4:18:43 PM EST
[#18]
Quote HistoryQuoted: You could do the AR-16. The gun Stoner designed that was redesigned from 308 to 223 yielding the AR18. http://weaponblueprints.com/mongo/pictures/Lower%20trest%20assembly-9.JPG http://weaponblueprints.com/mongo/pictures/Lower%20trest%20assembly-10.JPG http://weaponblueprints.com/mongo/pictures/Lower%20trest%20assembly-13.JPG http://weaponblueprints.com/mongo/pictures/Lower%20trest%20assembly-14.JPG https://i.imgur.com/w417RG9.jpeg https://i.imgur.com/hJDebWu.jpeg https://i.imgur.com/OVUG6ZV.jpeg https://i.imgur.com/MtjRcsO.jpeg Nice models - Are those Mongos? I talked to him about a stoner 63 a half dozen years ago or so. |
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Posted: 11/23/2022 4:21:18 PM EST
[#19]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Don't mean to side track the thread, op. But to make my point: I and one engineer developed/ designed, and I built this machine. It worked straight out of the box to perform a task that had plagued this company for almost two years. Just as, if not more, complex than many firearms. https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/206831/20220907_125806_jpg-2610779.JPG https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/206831/20220907_125840_jpg-2610780.JPG https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/206831/20220907_125905_jpg-2610781.JPG Now, I agree that being able to do it doesn't equal success. There are many components to this type of commercial success, as has been mentioned. OP, it would probably be a good idea to dig up info on other similar ventures. The AR180;comes to mind. It seems like it should have been a success but was quite limited, I think. I'll bet that mediocre performance was due to Armalite going full retard and not producing what people were expecting...an exact copy. Instead they made a plastic POS. I'm sure there are several examples of small run successes as well as failures. Trick is to find out the "whys". Ridgerunner - Nice parts! looks like that was a fun project I did some medical stuff like that about 10-15 yrs ago for Cedars Sanai research hospital. |
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Posted: 11/23/2022 4:26:00 PM EST
[#20]
Guys,
There are tons and tons of cool as projects out there. The trouble is to pick one with enough appeal to make it marketable at the price point it needs to be at to make it worthwhile. A company could probably tool up and produce SVD's for $1500, but they would need to make 10,000 of them and would be known as the SVD company. This is not what I'm looking to do, I want to do something more along the lines of Wiselite, Historic arms (I know Len is on this board). TNW, OOW, SMG guns, Marcolmar, Etc. but without building form un-obtainable kits. It is definately doable. I'm not sure what happened to HMG, we may never know. It looked promising at the start. |
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Posted: 11/23/2022 4:33:10 PM EST
[#21]
Want to make something differentiating that doesn't exist? A lightweight 6.5 Grendel bulllpup that delivers 1.5MOA or better accuracy.
THAT would be the ultimate efficient compact design rifle in the ultimate compact caliber. And nobody is doing it. Or, you can me-too something, just like everybody else. And stand in the same crowd as everybody else. |
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Posted: 11/23/2022 4:46:03 PM EST
[#22]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Guys, There are tons and tons of cool as projects out there. The trouble is to pick one with enough appeal to make it marketable at the price point it needs to be at to make it worthwhile. A company could probably tool up and produce SVD's for $1500, but they would need to make 10,000 of them and would be known as the SVD company. This is not what I'm looking to do, I want to do something more along the lines of Wiselite, Historic arms (I know Len is on this board). TNW, OOW, SMG guns, Marcolmar, Etc. but without building form un-obtainable kits. It is definately doable. I'm not sure what happened to HMG, we may never know. It looked promising at the start. Stoner 63 |
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Posted: 11/23/2022 4:49:55 PM EST
[#23]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Ridgerunner - Nice parts! looks like that was a fun project I did some medical stuff like that about 10-15 yrs ago for Cedars Sanai research hospital. Thanks. It was challenging. Truthfully, I was a little surprised it didn't need tweaking. So was the engineer. Sets a bad president. The rest of the crews down there think I could walk on water if I wanted. |
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Posted: 11/23/2022 4:56:03 PM EST
[#24]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Stoner 63 Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Guys, There are tons and tons of cool as projects out there. The trouble is to pick one with enough appeal to make it marketable at the price point it needs to be at to make it worthwhile. A company could probably tool up and produce SVD's for $1500, but they would need to make 10,000 of them and would be known as the SVD company. This is not what I'm looking to do, I want to do something more along the lines of Wiselite, Historic arms (I know Len is on this board). TNW, OOW, SMG guns, Marcolmar, Etc. but without building form un-obtainable kits. It is definately doable. I'm not sure what happened to HMG, we may never know. It looked promising at the start. Stoner 63 Would be cool. Especially if he doesn't abandon it and his customers like Robinson. I liked mine. Kinda wish I would have kept it. I'd seriously go for a Sig AMT or Stg57. Not sure how practical either of those would be for a short run. Tons of machine intensive parts. Hundreds of set ups. Dozens and dozens of fixtures. |
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Posted: 11/23/2022 5:19:19 PM EST
[#25]
make an affordable copy of the single shot HR/AAC .300 BO with a threaded barrel and sell all of them you could possibly make
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Posted: 11/23/2022 5:26:33 PM EST
[#26]
I vote Johnson light machine guns.
It’s a very rare gun that would have a market to WWII collectors. Not the most tacticool gun, but it is a gun that is so rare that WWII collectors and probably prop gun armorers and class III rental stores would buy. |
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Posted: 11/23/2022 5:42:07 PM EST
[#27]
I'd love to own an M3a3 greasegun.
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Posted: 11/23/2022 5:43:56 PM EST
[#28]
Quote HistoryQuoted: make an affordable copy of the single shot HR/AAC .300 BO with a threaded barrel and sell all of them you could possibly make He could include a hard plate and some duct tape. 
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Posted: 11/23/2022 5:48:48 PM EST
[#29]
While we're wishing and shitting...
Military configuration Rolling block rifles and carbines in modern cartridges. A mini Garand that takes 10-round clips for California, and 5 round clips for Canada. |
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Posted: 11/23/2022 6:02:34 PM EST
[#30]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I vote Johnson light machine guns. It’s a very rare gun that would have a market to WWII collectors. Not the most tacticool gun, but it is a gun that is so rare that WWII collectors and probably prop gun armorers and class III rental stores would buy. Came here to post the 1941 Johnson rifle....but this would be an excellent companion to it. |
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Posted: 11/23/2022 6:03:48 PM EST
[#31]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Op said toolmakers, not machinists. There's a difference. Tolerancing isn't trial and error. There are industry standard charts. What is the tolerance stackup of the magazine well, magazine body, follower, ammunition, magazine catch, and spring force that present the ammunition at the right angle for the bolt to pick it up and chamber the round? That is not an easy answer to come up with and no book will tell you. It also isn't a simple 2D stackup. It will take a lot of testing to get it right and even if you did, once you start making the parts in quantity (anything over a couple of model shop / toolroom examples) you will find that all the parts / magazines aren't interchangeable. I'd bet OP could make 5 or 10 guns that work with hand selected magazines, but beyond that he would really struggle without spending a lot of time (or money) developing further. |
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Posted: 11/23/2022 6:46:08 PM EST
[#32]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I know this wasn't on the list but is there a current US manufacturer of new Enfield actions? A new Delisle or just a new production Enfield action would be nice. Was going to mention a DeLisle but a new Enfield action might be very cool |
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Posted: 11/23/2022 7:50:19 PM EST
[#33]
Quote HistoryQuoted: This isn't a simple, "Hey I need these parts to not move so let's pick a FN4 forced fit." What is the tolerance stackup of the magazine well, magazine body, follower, ammunition, magazine catch, and spring force that present the ammunition at the right angle for the bolt to pick it up and chamber the round? That is not an easy answer to come up with and no book will tell you. It also isn't a simple 2D stackup. It will take a lot of testing to get it right and even if you did, once you start making the parts in quantity (anything over a couple of model shop / toolroom examples) you will find that all the parts / magazines aren't interchangeable. I'd bet OP could make 5 or 10 guns that work with hand selected magazines, but beyond that he would really struggle without spending a lot of time (or money) developing further. You're right, it can't be done. You would have to be an existing gun company with hundreds of engineers and dozens of old timer toolmakers with million dollar R&D budgets. WTF dude, It's BEEN done, It's BEING done by lots of small companies, and you have no idea of my skillset, budget and only a glimpse of my capabilities. I'm not applying for a job, so I'm not going to post my resume. And realistically, people like you would never buy what I'm trying to produce anyway, so the point is moot. I'm not looking for encouragement, dissuasion, or any other advice from unknown individuals on the internet. I merely wanted to run a poll to gauge interest in a project. If I posted that poll on AK files, FAL Files or UZI talk (is that still around) I would bet I get a completely different sampling. |
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Posted: 11/23/2022 7:54:26 PM EST
[#34]
Quote HistoryQuoted: You're right, it can't be done. You would have to be an existing gun company with hundreds of engineers and dozens of old timer toolmakers with million dollar R&D budgets. WTF dude, It's BEEN done, It's BEING done by lots of small companies, and you have no idea of my skillset, budget and only a glimpse of my capabilities. I'm not applying for a job, so I'm not going to post my resume. And realistically, people like you would never buy what I'm trying to produce anyway, so the point is moot. I'm not looking for encouragement, dissuasion, or any other advice from unknown individuals on the internet. I merely wanted to run a poll to gauge interest in a project. If I posted that poll on AK files, FAL Files or UZI talk (is that still around) I would bet I get a completely different sampling. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: This isn't a simple, "Hey I need these parts to not move so let's pick a FN4 forced fit." What is the tolerance stackup of the magazine well, magazine body, follower, ammunition, magazine catch, and spring force that present the ammunition at the right angle for the bolt to pick it up and chamber the round? That is not an easy answer to come up with and no book will tell you. It also isn't a simple 2D stackup. It will take a lot of testing to get it right and even if you did, once you start making the parts in quantity (anything over a couple of model shop / toolroom examples) you will find that all the parts / magazines aren't interchangeable. I'd bet OP could make 5 or 10 guns that work with hand selected magazines, but beyond that he would really struggle without spending a lot of time (or money) developing further. You're right, it can't be done. You would have to be an existing gun company with hundreds of engineers and dozens of old timer toolmakers with million dollar R&D budgets. WTF dude, It's BEEN done, It's BEING done by lots of small companies, and you have no idea of my skillset, budget and only a glimpse of my capabilities. I'm not applying for a job, so I'm not going to post my resume. And realistically, people like you would never buy what I'm trying to produce anyway, so the point is moot. I'm not looking for encouragement, dissuasion, or any other advice from unknown individuals on the internet. I merely wanted to run a poll to gauge interest in a project. If I posted that poll on AK files, FAL Files or UZI talk (is that still around) I would bet I get a completely different sampling. Which rare guns have you brought to market before? |
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Posted: 11/23/2022 8:10:09 PM EST
[#35]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Which rare guns have you brought to market before? Have you every made anything besides coffee? Why would I even begin to take into account what you have to say? I know Ridgerunner has some skils from his posts over the years. There are a few others that have made drive by posts, that I respect their opinions such as AreoE, XD341 and a few others. I don't post much, but I've been here for over 10 years. How do you know I haven't brought rare guns to market? Shit, I might even be HMG in disguise  I know, I know, don't feed the trolls |
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Posted: 11/23/2022 8:21:31 PM EST
[#36]
Quote HistoryQuoted: This isn't a simple, "Hey I need these parts to not move so let's pick a FN4 forced fit." What is the tolerance stackup of the magazine well, magazine body, follower, ammunition, magazine catch, and spring force that present the ammunition at the right angle for the bolt to pick it up and chamber the round? That is not an easy answer to come up with and no book will tell you. It also isn't a simple 2D stackup. It will take a lot of testing to get it right and even if you did, once you start making the parts in quantity (anything over a couple of model shop / toolroom examples) you will find that all the parts / magazines aren't interchangeable. I'd bet OP could make 5 or 10 guns that work with hand selected magazines, but beyond that he would really struggle without spending a lot of time (or money) developing further. Tolerance stack is an issue. I deal with it on a regular basis. It's one of the reasons I hold Gaston Glock in such high regard. That design is genius. There are some really cool and creative techniques and programs that basically average out probabilities of manufacturing hitting the extremes of tolerances on highs and lows for adjacent fits. It's hard to describe without you being infront of the computer with me. Ideally, a design would allow tolerances loose enough to allow cheap manufacture, while also guaranteeing the product would work if all parts are in spec. With older designs, that isn't always the case. Modern machines can hit tolerances previously not practical, with no effort. That makes things easier. Example: 1911s used to have several hand fit parts. Generally, if they didn't rattle, they were too tight to be reliable. Modern machines, tolerancing, materials have allowed mass-produced 1911s that are safe and reliable with no hand fitting. I won't say the task is easy but it isn't nearly as impossible as some are portraying. |
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Posted: 11/23/2022 8:23:30 PM EST
[#37]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Which rare guns have you brought to market before? Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Quoted: This isn't a simple, "Hey I need these parts to not move so let's pick a FN4 forced fit." What is the tolerance stackup of the magazine well, magazine body, follower, ammunition, magazine catch, and spring force that present the ammunition at the right angle for the bolt to pick it up and chamber the round? That is not an easy answer to come up with and no book will tell you. It also isn't a simple 2D stackup. It will take a lot of testing to get it right and even if you did, once you start making the parts in quantity (anything over a couple of model shop / toolroom examples) you will find that all the parts / magazines aren't interchangeable. I'd bet OP could make 5 or 10 guns that work with hand selected magazines, but beyond that he would really struggle without spending a lot of time (or money) developing further. You're right, it can't be done. You would have to be an existing gun company with hundreds of engineers and dozens of old timer toolmakers with million dollar R&D budgets. WTF dude, It's BEEN done, It's BEING done by lots of small companies, and you have no idea of my skillset, budget and only a glimpse of my capabilities. I'm not applying for a job, so I'm not going to post my resume. And realistically, people like you would never buy what I'm trying to produce anyway, so the point is moot. I'm not looking for encouragement, dissuasion, or any other advice from unknown individuals on the internet. I merely wanted to run a poll to gauge interest in a project. If I posted that poll on AK files, FAL Files or UZI talk (is that still around) I would bet I get a completely different sampling. Which rare guns have you brought to market before? Guns aren't magic. They are just machines. |
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Posted: 11/23/2022 8:33:24 PM EST
[#38]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Tolerance stack is an issue. I deal with it on a regular basis. It's one of the reasons I hold Gaston Glock in such high regard. That design is genius. There are some really cool and creative techniques and programs that basically average out probabilities of manufacturing hitting the extremes of tolerances on highs and lows for adjacent fits. It's hard to describe without you being infront of the computer with me. Ideally, a design would allow tolerances loose enough to allow cheap manufacture, while also guaranteeing the product would work if all parts are in spec. With older designs, that isn't always the case. Modern machines can hit tolerances previously not practical, with no effort. That makes things easier. Example: 1911s used to have several hand fit parts. Generally, if they didn't rattle, they were too tight to be reliable. Modern machines, tolerancing, materials have allowed mass-produced 1911s that are safe and reliable with no hand fitting. I won't say the task is easy but it isn't nearly as impossible as some are portraying. How about "With LESS effort" |
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Posted: 11/23/2022 8:35:54 PM EST
[#39]
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Posted: 11/23/2022 8:48:03 PM EST
[#40]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Those are guestimate prices. Guesses based on number of stamped/vs machined/vs molded or cast parts. SVD is a challenge because of the damn cheek riser (yeah, that's really an expensive assembly to make) Wood stock and laminated wood handguards also add to the cost. The STG stock is pretty much a profile cutout with some additional detailing, the SVD stock is sculpted (3D machined) An SVDM (Plastic stock/handguard) would drop the price by about $500 but is not as sexy looking in my opinion. We would try to source and include a PSO-1 Optic (probably China copy though) Tough to get from Belarus and I think they are one of the only com-bloc countries still making them (I could be wrong) Sent you a message about the PSO-1. We can help you with those. @thumbnuts |
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Posted: 11/23/2022 8:48:26 PM EST
[#41]
Quote HistoryQuoted: What about an M96, since Robinson seems to have abandoned the idea? Or a TRW Low Maintenance Rifle ? If this pans out, and is a profitable venture, We would consider doing others. A stoner 63 belt fed version would be the pinnacle. But to start with, it's not realistic. I think Robinson had plans to do the whole shebang and then figured it was easier to build their XCR platform with much less issues I do realize that there will be issues that need to be worked thru. the simpler design the better. Some guys said tube guns, and realistically those would be the easiest to manufacture by far. I have a friend with a postie Owen that's a absolute blast to shoot. SW76, Carl Gustav M45, Lanchester or Mp28 would be possibilities. Not gonna do a sten as they are garbage guns, and a semi would be worse. Me and my guys have discussed this project for better than a year, with either the STG, SVD or VSS being our main subjects. Also talked about doing a shorter run of 100 M2HB semis as they could pretty much be all machined from barstock. Just don't know how many of those I could sell at 8-10K each. There would be much less time and material cost invested in the M2's |
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Posted: 11/23/2022 9:11:39 PM EST
[#42]
M2’s would be a mistake. OOW and TNW have the market covered. It’s a very limited market to begin with.
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Posted: 11/23/2022 9:16:50 PM EST
[#43]
Quote HistoryQuoted: M2’s would be a mistake. OOW and TNW have the market covered. It’s a very limited market to begin with. That was our thought as well |
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Posted: 11/23/2022 9:24:39 PM EST
[#44]
M60S
I would Foo hard |
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Posted: 11/23/2022 9:32:47 PM EST
[#45]
I haven’t read all 5 pages but given your capabilities, a couple suggestions.
Broomhandle: well established, primarily machined parts. Well known. Dwindling stocks of nice shooter grade guns. 9mm. See LugerMan, what he does with new Lugers. I have one of his 45’s. STG44: exotic but well known in these circles. Mix of stamped and machined parts. See SMG Guns, their FG42. I own a type 2 from them. As noted earlier, 1941 Johnson, preferably the LMG version. Basic operating system and the barrel appears to be an early inspiration for Stoner’s AR15. I have a couple of the original rifles. It would be a significant design endeavor. I’m sure there are others. |
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Posted: 11/23/2022 9:50:03 PM EST
[#46]
A lot of those listed are already available at those pricepoints.
Being limited runs anyways, I'd make stuff someone else isn't, or isn't available on the market at your price, but still would draw attentions (and hopefully sales). Colt Monitor Sa-85 Famas Johnson '41 If you could make dies cheap enough, Liberator pistols may sell for $200-$250. |
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Posted: 11/23/2022 10:10:26 PM EST
[#47]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Have you every made anything besides coffee? Why would I even begin to take into account what you have to say? I know Ridgerunner has some skils from his posts over the years. There are a few others that have made drive by posts, that I respect their opinions such as AreoE, XD341 and a few others. I don't post much, but I've been here for over 10 years. How do you know I haven't brought rare guns to market? Shit, I might even be HMG in disguise I know, I know, don't feed the trolls Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Which rare guns have you brought to market before? Have you every made anything besides coffee? Why would I even begin to take into account what you have to say? I know Ridgerunner has some skils from his posts over the years. There are a few others that have made drive by posts, that I respect their opinions such as AreoE, XD341 and a few others. I don't post much, but I've been here for over 10 years. How do you know I haven't brought rare guns to market? Shit, I might even be HMG in disguise I know, I know, don't feed the trolls I’m not trolling. Answer if you want. Don’t if you don’t. The forums have seen ideas like yours before. |
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Posted: 11/23/2022 10:15:25 PM EST
[#48]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Guns aren't magic. They are just machines. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: This isn't a simple, "Hey I need these parts to not move so let's pick a FN4 forced fit." What is the tolerance stackup of the magazine well, magazine body, follower, ammunition, magazine catch, and spring force that present the ammunition at the right angle for the bolt to pick it up and chamber the round? That is not an easy answer to come up with and no book will tell you. It also isn't a simple 2D stackup. It will take a lot of testing to get it right and even if you did, once you start making the parts in quantity (anything over a couple of model shop / toolroom examples) you will find that all the parts / magazines aren't interchangeable. I'd bet OP could make 5 or 10 guns that work with hand selected magazines, but beyond that he would really struggle without spending a lot of time (or money) developing further. You're right, it can't be done. You would have to be an existing gun company with hundreds of engineers and dozens of old timer toolmakers with million dollar R&D budgets. WTF dude, It's BEEN done, It's BEING done by lots of small companies, and you have no idea of my skillset, budget and only a glimpse of my capabilities. I'm not applying for a job, so I'm not going to post my resume. And realistically, people like you would never buy what I'm trying to produce anyway, so the point is moot. I'm not looking for encouragement, dissuasion, or any other advice from unknown individuals on the internet. I merely wanted to run a poll to gauge interest in a project. If I posted that poll on AK files, FAL Files or UZI talk (is that still around) I would bet I get a completely different sampling. Which rare guns have you brought to market before? Guns aren't magic. They are just machines. Certainly not. But OP isn’t the first machinist to think he can build a marketable reproduction rifle. Maybe he’ll be the first to make it work, I don’t know. As I said in my first post, I wish him luck. |
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Posted: 11/23/2022 10:26:51 PM EST
[#49]
Speaking of the FNC; I heard there were more reg sears than guns, so if true, you could make those and literally charge $5K-$10K per unit, so sear owners could use their sears and still be under $20K.
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Posted: 11/23/2022 10:39:07 PM EST
[#50]
Quote HistoryQuoted: A lot of those listed are already available at those pricepoints. Being limited runs anyways, I'd make stuff someone else isn't, or isn't available on the market at your price, but still would draw attentions (and hopefully sales). Colt Monitor Sa-85 Famas Johnson '41 If you could make dies cheap enough, Liberator pistols may sell for $200-$250. Liberator pistols could be fun! What about Welrod pistols? |
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