Posted: 11/5/2007 6:06:54 PM EDT
| I'm looking for a new ATV and I've been out of the quad scene for a couple of years so I need your opinions to help decide. I'm looking to buy something new in the 700-750 class. I'm kinda leaning towards the AC 700 or the Brute Force 750. Which one of these would hold up better in the long run? Which one would have the best performance in the mud/water? Best 4wd/locker system? Fastest? Etc.? Or should I be looking at another model? |
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Have you looked at Can Am? Granted they are a little more expensive, but they rule the 4x4 class in just about every catagory (400, 500, 650, and 800). There is nothing that will beat them in their respective displacement classes. The 650 will beat all 700 class machines as far as power goes. The 800 is just a monster. It reminds me of why I started riding quads to begin with. I can pull up to the bottom of an old boney pile, nail the throttle and have to let off the throttle half way up to keep from launching into orbit. If you look to go rackless, they have an 800 Renegade sport machine that flat out spanks everything in the 4x4 class. It's the same design as the Outlander but with sportier plastic and better suspension. Can Am also has upgrade packages. The XT model Outlanders come with cast alloy wheels with better tires, front and rear bumpers, hand guards and a 3000# Warn winch. Total cost if you bought it all? $2500 If you buy the XT package it's only $800 more. Of the two you mentioned I'd go with the 750 Brute Force. The new 08s are better handling than the previous years and they come with EFI (a must IMHO). The suspension is better in the fact that it doesn't want to roll in the corners. It's not the fastest anymore (Can Am took that title three years ago) but it has pretty respectable power. Arctic Cat makes a nice quad, but they are more utility oriented. The 10" of suspension is nice on paper, but the ride is harsh. The new 08 Cats have something called "ride in calibration" that supposed to actually let the suspension move under the riders weight and give a better unladen ride. The Can Am uses dual A arms on the front (650 and 800) and Twin Torsional Independent suspension on the rear. The ride is nothing but cushy. It seems to lack a sway bar at a glance, but has a torsion bar inside the pivot point of the swingarms. The rear suspension is so revolutionary that you'll wonder (as I did) why no one had come out with it before. Think of a motorcycle swingarm that is sawed in half. The 4x4 systems on both are pretty compairable. Both lock the front differential (the Kawasaki does it with a lever the AC does it with a knob). I would prefer the Kawasaki system as you can lock the differential on the fly just by pulling the lever. The Can Am it uses a Visco Lok front differential. No levers to pull, no knobs to turn, it locks and unlocks itself. It rules in the mud. It's hard to say which would hold up better in the long run. Kawasaki has had problems in the past with tie rod ends. There are no issues with the Arctic Cat other than it's weight (about 100 lbs + more than the Japanese quads) and the fact that it doesn't use a sway bar on the rear. It may not seem like much, but a sway bar helps when you're riding fast in turns. |
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I currently have the Brute 750 and the Yamaha Griz 700. I've had a bunch of quads and ridden most of the popular ones, so I'd say I have a lot of experience. I really can't say enough good things about the power steering on the Grizzly. When it first came out most of the ute quad community tried to dismiss it as a totally unnecessary luxury for guys who must be total pussies. I can tell you now that it's been out a year and more guys have real seat time with the power steering, it's turning into a must have option. I give it a couple more years and all the brands will have it. Other things to note. I like the Yamaha 4wd system the best of all the brands out there. It's really good. The overall build quality of Yamaha stuff is the best or at least right up there with Honda. EFI of course but most of them have that now. Despite being a single cylinder it has a smoother engine than most the two piston quads. When cruising down trails for hours on end the combination of smooth engine, power steering and soft seat really reduce rider fatigue. The Griz also has more power than people give it credit for. In a drag race my Brute Force only beats it off the line but once rolling they are dead even. And people generally consider the Brute a pretty fast ute. |
Z1500, Something you didn't mention about the Electronic Power Steering on the Yamaha Griz. The power steering acts as a steering dampener also. This is a good thing as it keeps the bars from getting ripped out of your hands if one of the front wheels hits something. In that instance alone it's worth the price. |
Now that I've given you the "PLUS" of each machine, it's time to give you the minuses. If you're looking at a utility machine with any kind of power in it, STAY AWAY FROM THE HONDA! Can Am did a promotional video that had a Outlander 500 (yes, I said 500) that they ran against a Rincon 680. The 500 Outlander beat the 180cc larger machine in a drag race and out pulled it in the weight tranfer sled test. Sure Honda builds a reliable utility machine, but only because it doesn't have enough power to get out of its own way. Also you won't be satisfied with the "three wheel drive" front differential. They use an open differential in the front end that will give at best three driving wheels. Also the engine braking is almost non existant on the Rincon compared to ALL of the other models. It also lacks any kind of low range on it's automotive three speed automatic tranny. The big bore Yamahas do have one annoying glitch that I've heard of. The gas in the gas tank seems to "boil" when ridden slowly. I know this probably isn't a problem with heat, but more than likely a problem with the fuel return line from the EFI. Also their front locking differential requires that you stop to put the machine into lock mode. This is true of almost every machine out there except the Kawasaki, Polaris and Can Am. Can Am advertizes their SST frame as being able to skid over obsticles better than a conventional skid plate. That is true only if you want a dented frame. The metal on the bottom of the frame is very thin and does require a skid plate to avoid damage. That's about an extra $339 to spend on a machine that SHOULD have come with skid plates from the beginning. Also the brakes are noisy. They sound like something breaking rather than braking, but rest assured they will stop the quad. This can easily be cured by using aftermarket sintered pads. However, the engine braking on these quads is so good that I rarely even use the brakes unless I come to a complete stop. The bony piles I talked about in my original post were easily gone down in 4x4 low range with no slipping. I never touched the brakes the whole way down. Arctic Cat is one of the heavier quads out there. They make no bones about the fact that they are beefy, but that beefiness come at the cost of extra weight. Most open class utility quads are running around 600 lbs dry. The AC runs around 715 dry (second only to Polaris' 770 lb dry weight). Now 100 or so pounds doesn't seem like a lot but it does make a difference when you are already trying to pick up the back of a 600+ lb machine. Also there is no sway bar on the AC machines. If you decide to get sporty with the machine watch out for body roll in corners. The whole machine feels like wants to roll over on turns. The Kawasaki Brute Force generally lacks refinement when it comes to suspension. Ride it fast and you will be rewarded with a smooth ride, ride it slow and you'll wonder what happened to the suspension. The tie rods on previous models have been an issue as is the carbs in the years proir to '08. There is nothing wrong with carburators per se, it's just that they aren't as good as EFI on the '08s. EFI will allow you to ride the full spectrum of temperatures from below zero to 100 degree plus temps with no rejetting. Suzuki's King Quad 700 is a nice little machine in the litteral sense. If you are much bigger than 5'9" you are going to feel cramped on this machine after a long days ride. The older 700s are a little down on power in the low end, but this has been cured for the most part on the new '08 722cc (750 claimed) engine. Polaris 800 Sportsman is the heavy weight king. At the afore mentioned 770 lbs dry with a full tank of fuel, oil, coolant and 200 lb rider on board you are looking at over a half ton of machine and rider going down the trail. Getting this machine going and stopping it are a real chore. The 4x4 system is very good for climbing or mud riding. The rear wheels only have to slip 2/5ths of a turn in order for the front wheels to lock in. However this comes at a price. Because the quad in in two wheel drive (even with 4x4 the button pushed) going down hills is a nightmare. Remember, you are only in two wheel drive until the rear wheels slip under acceleration, not when they skid because of engine braking. When going down hills the rear wheels start to slip and the back of the quad wants to change places with the front. This is not good on steep down hills. Polaris has come out with something called ADC (Active Decent Control) that locks the hubs in and gives you true four wheel engine braking. But this is only offered in their top of the line models and to go back to 4x4 mode you have to remember to push the selector to 4x4 from the ADC setting. Not something I want to do when bouncing along on a trail or trying a mud hole. Well, these are the minuses. I'm sure I'll get called to the carpet on more than one issue, but that's how I see it. |
It felt better than the Brute, but I don't know if it was $1500 worth.......but then again.... Better sleep on it|
What 800 were you looking at? I picked up my 800 Outlander for $9399 ($300 off an '08), mind you it was an XT with the winch, better tires and wheels, handguards and brushguards. The base model Outlander is about $8799. The Renegade is $9299 and the new Renegade X is 10,495. If I had to do it over again, I would buy the base model Outlander, fit it with skidplates (Riccochets are the best) and be done with it. Then again I might just spring for the Renegade X. |
It was the top model Outlander. I don't think I need all the high-priced factory installed bling, either. One thing I didn't like too much was the lack of storage, guess I can throw a storage box on back. Base model sounds like a good idea. (But upon further inspection, it looks like you have to step up to the XT to get the camo  )
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| Yeah, I forgot that the green and Camo models were XT only for '08 and that you end up paying a premuim for the camo version on top of the XT charge. Storage is pretty non existant, but most people use bags or boxes, regardless of the make or model. See if you can find an '07 model. The green on the '07 is still listed as a non XT model. |
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Ballistic- Can you give us some more specifics on what you want out of a quad. They really are all a little different. It kind of seems like you are leaning towards wanting something really fast. If you are wanting to fly around trails at high speed like the sport quads and speed is #1, then Can-Am is the right one. The Outy 800 and 650 are flat out fast and handle real well. The biggest downside to Can-Am for me is I don't really like the 4wd system on them for my type of riding. The 4wd system is a little better on the Kawi but Yami does it best. What it all comes down to is the rider being in control of when the bike goes into full locked 4wd. The Can-Am 4wd system doesn't let the rider prepare for a nasty obstacle, it only locks the differential by itself AFTER you loose traction. This can take a couple solid seconds of spinning before the other wheels start to help out. The Kawi is all up to the rider but you have to have switched it into 4wd a good 10ft before you get to said nasty obstacle. The front diff lock on the Kawi is a instantaneous thing just by pulling a lever but to get the front drive shaft locked can take 10ft after flipping the switch. Now the Yami will go into 4wd at the push of a button with no hesitation and without the quad having to move. And on top of that it will lock the front diff at the push of a button, the second you push it. Depending on what type of riding you are doing, this could mean nothing or it could be a big deal. |
I kinda want a quad that will do it all (I know, I'll have to sacrifice womething somewhere). Probably mostly be doing trailriding and mud, but I hate to loose in a drag race.  Also, since I started looking, I think I'm going to need a two up for the spousal unit. We sat on the Arctic Cat two-up yesterday and it wasn't nearly as comfortable and roomy as the Outlander Max.
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| The Outlander Max is a really good machine. Nice and plush. However there are trade offs like increased turning radius and extra weight. According an old Can Am promotional video (I haven't seen this in person) the two-up MAX 800 still beat the Kawasaki Brute Force 750 even with an extra rider on board. So the performance seems to be there. Now that the Kawasaki has EFI, I bet they would be pretty much even. |
If you're going to get a two-up it has to be the Outy Max. It hits all your criteria better than anything. Just bite the bullet and pony up the $10k+, you will be disappointed with anything less. It's a lot cheaper than buying her one too:) |