Posted: 9/14/2011 1:54:28 PM EDT
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After hours of cleaning with a broomstick, and then with just a bar, I decided to add some weight since the bar moved a little too much to see if my form was right. I know the basic gist of the exercise and I've watched tons of videos, but it still doesn't look right. It looks like I'm lifting the weight too high and getting under it too late.
I'd appreciate any tips. I look pretty worn out in the video because I'd been doing this for like three hours. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=35b2xb47Pgw |
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A couple of quick observations: 1. It's hard to tell from that angle, but your feet look a little far apart. You could probably stand to move them a few centimeters in and point your toes a little less out. 2. Work on setting up the bar properly 100% of the time. Stand over the bar, don't roll it towards you. As you look down at the bar, it should cover the knots in your shoe laces. Lean forward, take your grip, THEN bend your knees until your shins just touch the bar. You'll have the same starting position every time for more consistent results. 3. Your speed is pretty much the same from the start to finish. You need to EXPLODE up when the bar passes your knees. It can be slow, steady, whatever up to that point, but once you cross your knee caps you need to thrust your hips forward and up as hard as you can. You should be on the balls of your feet or off the mat at this point. 4. You need to add more weight to the bar simply to get it higher off the ground and to give it more momentum. Once you've applied 1 & 2, you'll probably see that more weight won't be a problem for you. I'm assuming that's 95#... try it again at 135 once you've gone over 1-3. Your catch looks OK. You certainly don't need to full squat every time if you know you can catch it in a 1/4 squat. Also, keep your heels on the ground in the squat (might have to do with #1). |
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Quoted:
A couple of quick observations: 1. It's hard to tell from that angle, but your feet look a little far apart. You could probably stand to move them a few centimeters in and point your toes a little less out. 2. Work on setting up the bar properly 100% of the time. Stand over the bar, don't roll it towards you. As you look down at the bar, it should cover the knots in your shoe laces. Lean forward, take your grip, THEN bend your knees until your shins just touch the bar. You'll have the same starting position every time for more consistent results. 3. Your speed is pretty much the same from the start to finish. You need to EXPLODE up when the bar passes your knees. It can be slow, steady, whatever up to that point, but once you cross your knee caps you need to thrust your hips forward and up as hard as you can. You should be on the balls of your feet or off the mat at this point. 4. You need to add more weight to the bar simply to get it higher off the ground and to give it more momentum. Once you've applied 1 & 2, you'll probably see that more weight won't be a problem for you. I'm assuming that's 95#... try it again at 135 once you've gone over 1-3. Your catch looks OK. You certainly don't need to full squat every time if you know you can catch it in a 1/4 squat. Also, keep your heels on the ground in the squat (might have to do with #1). Thanks. I've been on the penn state powerlifting team for like six months and my deadlifting habits from that are hard to shake (the roll and the wider stance). My hips are anteriorly something or other (according to army doctors) so my feet point outwards. The explosion is the part I've been having trouble with since I'm used to muscling up like 400-500 pounds slower than hell. I had a better explosion during the beginning of the day, so I'll attribute that to just being tired. I'm going to rest for a few days. Maybe I'll try again on Friday with some 45's. Thanks. |
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Overall your form looks fairly good.
Hard to tell how wide your stance is. I would bring the toes in closer. You need better extension of your body, meaning heels should come off the ground following hip and knee extension (straightening out) and a good shoulder shrug in that same time frame. Arms should come up to your chest like an upright row (like pulling your pants up to your chest). Should be able to catch the bar close to a 1/4 squat. I would drop the full squat unless that is desired. I do not see a problem with rolling the bar over your toes. Bar is ending up at the same point whether you step up to it or roll it to you. The closer the bar to your body the easier the weight will be. If you could get the bar to a level it would be at with 45lb plates, it could help. Don't push the weight if you cannot. I would go to hang cleans until able to do 45lb plates from the ground if you do not have bumper plates at lighter weight to raise the level of the bar. This will also develop that explosiveness from the get go. AGW is correct that you need to EXPLODE up with the bar. I disagree that you start the explosion when the bar is passing your knees. You are trying to develop explosive power with this lift, therefore the second you start moving you're exploding. During my course of training and coaching of jumpers and sprinters, we said you essentially are trying to jump up with the bar from a squat position and trying to get the bar to fly over head if you were to let go at the top of the lift. Your feet can leave the ground. The bar is almost traveling on it's own from the time you reach full extension to your neck level. In this time frame you are getting under the bar. ETA: I would be curious to know what your power team preached in terms of sets, reps, wt percentages, and how far into fatigue to go. |
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I agree with AGW. The setup is hugely important, rolling it over the toes is not ideal IMO. I think most oly coaches would also say they the explosion starts past the knees, I've never heard any say to start exploding from the ground. ETA- good tip about starting at the hang. pretty good way to start teaching the clean IMO.
Notice his explosion happens after he passes the knees:  Your form is actually pretty good for just getting started. |
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Quoted:
I agree with AGW. The setup is hugely important, rolling it over the toes is not ideal IMO. I think most oly coaches would also say they the explosion starts past the knees, I've never heard any say to start exploding from the ground. ETA- good tip about starting at the hang. pretty good way to start teaching the clean IMO.
Notice his explosion happens after he passes the knees: Your form is actually pretty good for just getting started. I've been lifting for a little over a year with squats and deads, just never any olympic lifts. I'll work on the explosion Friday. The only reason I rolled it is because I'm so used to doing it for heavy deadlifts. I'll try to stop doing it. |
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The explosion starts from the beginning, it just doesn't appear to be until later because in the bottom squat position the muscles are not at their optimal force/length position and they are doing a lot of weight. The momentum needs to be built. Another reason why starting with hang cleans would be a good idea. It develops the power near optimal muscle length for maximal force output.
ETA: In short the muscles are at a mechanical disadvantage. Why is it easier to squat heavier weight going to around 90 or parallel verses A2G? What's the explanation as to why rolling the bar is not a good idea or poor form? |
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Quoted: The explosion starts from the beginning, it just doesn't appear to be until later because in the bottom squat position the muscles are not at their optimal force/length position and they are doing a lot of weight. The momentum needs to be built. Another reason why starting with hang cleans would be a good idea. It develops the power near optimal muscle length for maximal force output. ETA: In short the muscles are at a mechanical disadvantage. Why is it easier to squat heavier weight going to around 90 or parallel verses A2G? What's the explanation as to why rolling the bar is not a good idea or poor form? It's somewhat difficult to see, but the real explosion does not happen until after the bar passes the knees- that is precisely the reason why it's good to start someone from the hang. Rolling the bar- Setup starts when you walk up to the bar shoulders back, chest out and a good lumbar curve. You slowly squat down and position your hands. If you roll the bar, you're setting up while in the "down" position...it's sort of hard to explain, but you should be setup almost completely by the time you grab the bar. AGW might be able to explain further. |
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Kevin, Bar speed isn't going to be any faster exploding from the ground than from the knees due to the limited muscle tone at the start of the lift (as you pointed out). Since the hips and hams can't contribute to the pull from the floor to the knees, it's generally ideal to start the pull smooth and consistent to preserve your form and energy for the rest of the lift. I personally think it's also better on your elbows because many people have the tendency to let them flex a tiny bit before lunging off the ground and snapping them into extension. Not rolling the bar is just a helpful way to always be in the exact same starting position. Think of it as lying prone and pulling the trigger on an exhaled breath, when your chest always returns to the same position, as opposed firing on an inhaled breath, altering your POA depending on the volume you inspired. It forces you to attain the correct starting position in a 1-2-3 way rather than trying to set the back and position the bar in one movement. It provides novice and intermediate lifters an easy way to consistently achieve the uniform criteria for a safe and effective deadlift: bar over mid-foot, scapulae over bar, back in extension. It's a matter of preference once you've attained elite status, as many Olympiad prefer to set up from the bottom up while they set their grip. |
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Quoted:
Kevin, Bar speed isn't going to be any faster exploding from the ground than from the knees due to the limited muscle tone at the start of the lift (as you pointed out). Since the hips and hams can't contribute to the pull from the floor to the knees, it's generally ideal to start the pull smooth and consistent to preserve your form and energy for the rest of the lift. I personally think it's also better on your elbows because many people have the tendency to let them flex a tiny bit before lunging off the ground and snapping them into extension. Not rolling the bar is just a helpful way to always be in the exact same starting position. Think of it as lying prone and pulling the trigger on an exhaled breath, when your chest always returns to the same position, as opposed firing on an inhaled breath, altering your POA depending on the volume you inspired. It forces you to attain the correct starting position in a 1-2-3 way rather than trying to set the back and position the bar in one movement. It provides novice and intermediate lifters an easy way to consistently achieve the uniform criteria for a safe and effective deadlift: bar over mid-foot, scapulae over bar, back in extension. It's a matter of preference once you've attained elite status, as many Olympiad prefer to set up from the bottom up while they set their grip. Thank you for the explanation on setup RoG and AGW. I see what your saying but I don't see it as being any better or worse of an idea if you get in the right position before you start - bar over mid-foot, scapulae over bar, back in extension. As well as head and chest up (or looking a short distance in front of you). I'm not talking about bar speed per say, I am pertaining to the training effect of the lift. If you are trying to cultivate split second explosive power, then you want to start as such from the initial movement. You're building that explosiveness through a wider range or movement than just at or around the optimal muscle length. Is it going to be as fast or as powerful as at mid-range...no. Think about starting from blocks or doing a vertical jump test, or standing long jump (which is a good measure of explosiveness), you dip, squatting down low and rocket yourself up or out. Not, squat low and then come up moderately fast and then turn it on part way up. |
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Quoted: Quoted: Kevin, Bar speed isn't going to be any faster exploding from the ground than from the knees due to the limited muscle tone at the start of the lift (as you pointed out). Since the hips and hams can't contribute to the pull from the floor to the knees, it's generally ideal to start the pull smooth and consistent to preserve your form and energy for the rest of the lift. I personally think it's also better on your elbows because many people have the tendency to let them flex a tiny bit before lunging off the ground and snapping them into extension. Not rolling the bar is just a helpful way to always be in the exact same starting position. Think of it as lying prone and pulling the trigger on an exhaled breath, when your chest always returns to the same position, as opposed firing on an inhaled breath, altering your POA depending on the volume you inspired. It forces you to attain the correct starting position in a 1-2-3 way rather than trying to set the back and position the bar in one movement. It provides novice and intermediate lifters an easy way to consistently achieve the uniform criteria for a safe and effective deadlift: bar over mid-foot, scapulae over bar, back in extension. It's a matter of preference once you've attained elite status, as many Olympiad prefer to set up from the bottom up while they set their grip. Thank you for the explanation on setup RoG and AGW. I see what your saying but I don't see it as being any better or worse of an idea if you get in the right position before you start - bar over mid-foot, scapulae over bar, back in extension. As well as head and chest up (or looking a short distance in front of you). I'm not talking about bar speed per say, I am pertaining to the training effect of the lift. If you are trying to cultivate split second explosive power, then you want to start as such from the initial movement. You're building that explosiveness through a wider range or movement than just at or around the optimal muscle length. Is it going to be as fast or as powerful as at mid-range...no. Think about starting from blocks or doing a vertical jump test, or standing long jump (which is a good measure of explosiveness), you dip, squatting down low and rocket yourself up or out. Not, squat low and then come up moderately fast and then turn it on part way up. The setup is more of a consistency thing I think. Having done it both ways, I know I've hit my heaviest cleans and snatches when I was very careful about my setup- starting it from the standing position. I guess we'll have to agree to disagree here. Although you DO build some momentum from the ground the explosiveness of the movement (the second pull) happens after the knees according to everything I've been taught. |