[ARCHIVED THREAD] - Hold Fast (Page 1 of 2)
Posted: 3/9/2013 9:28:50 AM EDT
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The Resistance
God forbid that I should justify you: till I die I will not remove mine integrity from me. My righteousness I hold fast, and will not let it go: my heart shall not reproach me so long as I live.Job 27 Seeing then that we have a great high priest, that is passed into the heavens, Jesus the Son of God, let us hold fast our profession. For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as [we are, yet] without sin. Let us therefore come boldly unto the throne of grace, that we may obtain mercy, and find grace to help in time of need. Heb 4 |
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Anti-Catholic diatribe at 1:22. So, more to the point, what fight is there actually, if we are saved by faith. If our actions (works) do not matter, and we are saved by faith alone, what exactly are we supposed to be resisting? Actions do matter… that your Father in heaven might see your good deeds and therefore grant you entrance into heaven?....or….”that they might see you good deeds and glorify your Father who is in heaven.” Christians are in a fight… not to earn the grace of God our Father and become worth the merit of Jesus Christ…but to ensure that the world knows that we have been saved from the power of sin by the forgiveness of God. To kill our flesh that makes war against our spirit...and “Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh.” The world had a Biblically sanctioned system of merit for much of its history….yet we all failed…all sinned …all fell short….all came under condemnation. God’s religious system was perfect….so much so that none could pass its requirements. The Cross stands not because it seals the deal for good religious people….it stands as hope for sinners who have come to the end of their good religious efforts and have nothing left but the cry..” God be merciful to me a sinner.” The King who murders a man and takes his wife….the man who betrays Christ three times…the American who fulfills the lust of the flesh and the pride of life hiding behind religion…the Pope who is complicit in protecting child molesters…..none of us will see God based on merit because merit can never atone for what we have done nor can merit make us more than we are. Victory is only in Christ Jesus….we fight to become more like him and reflect more of him…but we will fail if we fight to become worth him. For that reason most of what I post typically has various anti-religious undertones, often (like in this case) not even by intent. I’m sorry if by pointing out the futility of kneeling and kissing a man’s ring I have offended you. Personally, I would love to meet a Pope….shake his hand and share the good news that Jesus forgives sinners by grace through faith. Now, because you're my friend you get a great song by a Catholic Brother of ours. The Bride says come.... by shining like she has seen the Groom! Grace and Peace be yours. |
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Personally, I would love to meet a Pope….shake his hand and share the good news that Jesus forgives sinners by grace through faith. I'm pretty sure the Pope has figured that out already. The Catechism would indicate that the Catholic Church as a whole has figured that out as well. 161 Believing in Jesus Christ and in the One who sent him for our salvation is necessary for obtaining that salvation. "Since "without faith it is impossible to please [God]" and to attain to the fellowship of his sons, therefore without faith no one has ever attained justification, nor will anyone obtain eternal life 'But he who endures to the end.'" 162 Faith is an entirely free gift that God makes to man. We can lose this priceless gift, as St. Paul indicated to St. Timothy: "Wage the good warfare, holding faith and a good conscience. By rejecting conscience, certain persons have made shipwreck of their faith." To live, grow and persevere in the faith until the end we must nourish it with the word of God; we must beg the Lord to increase our faith; it must be "working through charity," abounding in hope, and rooted in the faith of the Church. 1993 Justification establishes cooperation between God's grace and man's freedom. On man's part it is expressed by the assent of faith to the Word of God, which invites him to conversion, and in the cooperation of charity with the prompting of the Holy Spirit who precedes and preserves his assent: 2005 Since it belongs to the supernatural order, grace escapes our experience and cannot be known except by faith. We cannot therefore rely on our feelings or our works to conclude that we are justified and saved. However, according to the Lord's words "Thus you will know them by their fruits"- reflection on God's blessings in our life and in the lives of the saints offers us a guarantee that grace is at work in us and spurs us on to an ever greater faith and an attitude of trustful poverty. Both you and your christo-rapper are lacking in proper respect for the office represented by the Pope. The chain of command established with Peter in the Scripture and passed unbroken through 265 men to the present day is worthy of respect. Its not about the man, its about the office. The office that holds the keys to the kingdom as commanded by Christ himself. |
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"The Catholic idea maintains that the formal cause of justification does not consist in an exterior imputation of the justice of Christ, but in a real, interior sanctification effected by grace, which abounds in the soul and makes it permanently holy before God (cf. Trent, Sess. VI, cap. vii; can. xi). Although the sinner is justified by the justice of Christ, inasmuch as the Redeemer has merited for him the grace of justification (causa meritoria), nevertheless he is formally justified and made holy by his own personal justice and holiness (causa formalis), just as a philosopher by his own inherent learning becomes a scholar, not, however, by any exterior imputation of the wisdom of God (Trent, Sess. VI, can. x)." -
"It would follow that, since the justice of Christ is always and ever the same, every person justified, from the ordinary everyday person to the Blessed Virgin, the Mother of God, would possess precisely the same justification and would have, in degree and kind, the same holiness and justice. This deduction was expressly made by Luther. Can any man of sound mind accept it?" - The Protestant conception of justification boasts of three characteristics: absolute certainty (certitudo), complete uniformity in all the justified (aequalitas), unforfeitableness (inamissibilitas). According to the teaching of the Church, sanctifying grace has the opposite characteristics: uncertainty (incertitudo), inequality (inaequalitas), and amissibility (amissibilitas). here Dr. R. C. Sproul wrote the following: "What is it in the last decades that has made the first-century gospel unimportant?" The dispute over justification was not over a technical point of theology that could be consigned to the fringes of the depository of biblical truth. Nor could it be seen simply as a tempest in a teapot. This tempest extended far beyond the tiny volume of a single teacup. The question, "what must I do to be saved?" is still a critical question for any person who is exposed to the wrath of God. Even more critical than the question is the answer, because the answer touches the very heart of gospel truth. In the final analysis, the Roman Catholic Church affirmed at Trent and continues to affirm now that the basis by which God will declare a person just or unjust is found in one's "inherent righteousness." If righteousness does not inhere in the person, that person at worst goes to hell and at best (if any impurities remain in his life) goes to purgatory for a time that may extend to millions of years. In bold contrast to that, the biblical and Protestant view of justification is that the sole grounds of our justification is the righteousness of Christ, which righteousness is imputed to the believer, so that the moment a person has authentic faith in Christ, all that is necessary for salvation becomes theirs by virtue of the imputation of Christ's righteousness. The fundamental issue is this: is the basis by which I am justified a righteousness that is my own? Or is it a righteousness that is, as Luther said, "an alien righteousness," a righteousness that is extra nos, apart from us -- the righteousness of another, namely, the righteousness of Christ? Here great video included!! if you don't have the time start at the 29min mark. "God receives none but those who are forsaken, restores health to none but those who are sick, gives sight to none but the blind, and life to none but the dead. He does not give saintliness to any but sinners, nor wisdom to any but fools. In short: He has mercy on none but the wretched and gives grace to none but those who are in disgrace. Therefore no arrogant saint, or just or wise man can be material for God, neither can he do the work of God, but he remains confined within his own work and makes of himself a fictitious, ostensible, false, and deceitful saint, that is, a hypocrite (Luther, WA, 1.183ff)." Forsaken, sick, blind, dead, sinner, fool Now that is a standard where I had met all the requirements. |
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LOL, it's like anti-Catholicism is the low spot on the floor where all water eventually runs with some of these types. The good news is that The Living Water of Jesus Christ has the power to fill in all our hearts empty voids! If you believe that The Living Water of Jesus requires you to insult Catholics, then your 'heart' isn't as filled as you think. |
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"The Catholic idea maintains that the formal cause of justification does not consist in an exterior imputation of the justice of Christ, but in a real, interior sanctification effected by grace, which abounds in the soul and makes it permanently holy before God (cf. Trent, Sess. VI, cap. vii; can. xi). Although the sinner is justified by the justice of Christ, inasmuch as the Redeemer has merited for him the grace of justification (causa meritoria), nevertheless he is formally justified and made holy by his own personal justice and holiness (causa formalis), just as a philosopher by his own inherent learning becomes a scholar, not, however, by any exterior imputation of the wisdom of God (Trent, Sess. VI, can. x)." - "It would follow that, since the justice of Christ is always and ever the same, every person justified, from the ordinary everyday person to the Blessed Virgin, the Mother of God, would possess precisely the same justification and would have, in degree and kind, the same holiness and justice. This deduction was expressly made by Luther. Can any man of sound mind accept it?" - The Protestant conception of justification boasts of three characteristics: absolute certainty (certitudo), complete uniformity in all the justified (aequalitas), unforfeitableness (inamissibilitas). According to the teaching of the Church, sanctifying grace has the opposite characteristics: uncertainty (incertitudo), inequality (inaequalitas), and amissibility (amissibilitas). here The Council of Trent may perhaps be the most unjustly maligned institution in history. In effect, what they did was defend the Western tradition of free will and individualism against the base and ugly determinism of the mass which appeared, first in the religious guise of Protestantism, then later its secularized guises of socialism, Marxism and Social Darwinism. From the Summa: Article 1. Whether a man may merit anything from God? Objection 1. It would seem that a man can merit nothing from God. For no one, it would seem, merits by giving another his due. But by all the good we do, we cannot make sufficient return to God, since yet more is His due, as also the Philosopher says (Ethic. viii, 14). Hence it is written (Luke 17:10): "When you have done all these things that are commanded you, say: We are unprofitable servants; we have done that which we ought to do." Therefore a man can merit nothing from God. Objection 2. Further, it would seem that a man merits nothing from God, by what profits himself only, and profits God nothing. Now by acting well, a man profits himself or another man, but not God, for it is written (Job 35:7): "If thou do justly, what shalt thou give Him, or what shall He receive of thy hand." Hence a man can merit nothing from God. Objection 3. Further, whoever merits anything from another makes him his debtor; for a man's wage is a debt due to him. Now God is no one's debtor; hence it is written (Romans 11:35): "Who hath first given to Him, and recompense shall be made to him?" Hence no one can merit anything from God. On the contrary, It is written (Jeremiah 31:16): "There is a reward for thy work." Now a reward means something bestowed by reason of merit. Hence it would seem that a man may merit from God. I answer that, Merit and reward refer to the same, for a reward means something given anyone in return for work or toil, as a price for it. Hence, as it is an act of justice to give a just price for anything received from another, so also is it an act of justice to make a return for work or toil. Now justice is a kind of equality, as is clear from the Philosopher (Ethic. v, 3), and hence justice is simply between those that are simply equal; but where there is no absolute equality between them, neither is there absolute justice, but there may be a certain manner of justice, as when we speak of a father's or a master's right (Ethic. v, 6), as the Philosopher says. And hence where there is justice simply, there is the character of merit and reward simply. But where there is no simple right, but only relative, there is no character of merit simply, but only relatively, in so far as the character of justice is found there, since the child merits something from his father and the slave from his lord. Now it is clear that between God and man there is the greatest inequality: for they are infinitely apart, and all man's good is from God. Hence there can be no justice of absolute equality between man and God, but only of a certain proportion, inasmuch as both operate after their own manner. Now the manner and measure of human virtue is in man from God. Hence man's merit with God only exists on the presupposition of the Divine ordination, so that man obtains from God, as a reward of his operation, what God gave him the power of operation for, even as natural things by their proper movements and operations obtain that to which they were ordained by God; differently, indeed, since the rational creature moves itself to act by its free-will, hence its action has the character of merit, which is not so in other creatures. Reply to Objection 1. Man merits, inasmuch as he does what he ought, by his free-will; otherwise the act of justice whereby anyone discharges a debt would not be meritorious. Reply to Objection 2. God seeks from our goods not profit, but glory, i.e. the manifestation of His goodness; even as He seeks it also in His own works. Now nothing accrues to Him, but only to ourselves, by our worship of Him. Hence we merit from God, not that by our works anything accrues to Him, but inasmuch as we work for His glory. Reply to Objection 3. Since our action has the character of merit, only on the presupposition of the Divine ordination, it does not follow that God is made our debtor simply, but His own, inasmuch as it is right that His will should be carried out. More from the Summa. The difference between first, sufficient and subsequent causes is critical. Article 3. Whether a man in grace can merit eternal life condignly?
Objection 1. It would seem that a man in grace cannot merit eternal life condignly, for the Apostle says (Romans 8:18): "The sufferings of this time are not worthy [condignae] to be compared with the glory to come, that shall be revealed in us." But of all meritorious works, the sufferings of the saints would seem the most meritorious. Therefore no works of men are meritorious of eternal life condignly. Objection 2. Further, on Romans 6:23, "The grace of God, life everlasting," a gloss says: "He might have truly said: 'The wages of justice, life everlasting'; but He preferred to say 'The grace of God, life everlasting,' that we may know that God leads us to life everlasting of His own mercy and not by our merits." Now when anyone merits something condignly he receives it not from mercy, but from merit. Hence it would seem that a man with grace cannot merit life everlasting condignly. Objection 3. Further, merit that equals the reward, would seem to be condign. Now no act of the present life can equal everlasting life, which surpasses our knowledge and our desire, and moreover, surpasses the charity or love of the wayfarer, even as it exceeds nature. Therefore with grace a man cannot merit eternal life condignly. On the contrary, What is granted in accordance with a fair judgment, would seem a condign reward. But life everlasting is granted by God, in accordance with the judgment of justice, according to 2 Timothy 4:8: "As to the rest, there is laid up for me a crown of justice, which the Lord, the just judge, will render to me in that day." Therefore man merits everlasting life condignly. I answer that, Man's meritorious work may be considered in two ways: first, as it proceeds from free-will; secondly, as it proceeds from the grace of the Holy Ghost. If it is considered as regards the substance of the work, and inasmuch as it springs from the free-will, there can be no condignity because of the very great inequality. But there is congruity, on account of an equality of proportion: for it would seem congruous that, if a man does what he can, God should reward him according to the excellence of his power. If, however, we speak of a meritorious work, inasmuch as it proceeds from the grace of the Holy Ghost moving us to life everlasting, it is meritorious of life everlasting condignly. For thus the value of its merit depends upon the power of the Holy Ghost moving us to life everlasting according to John 4:14: "Shall become in him a fount of water springing up into life everlasting." And the worth of the work depends on the dignity of grace, whereby a man, being made a partaker of the Divine Nature, is adopted as a son of God, to whom the inheritance is due by right of adoption, according to Romans 8:17: "If sons, heirs also." Reply to Objection 1. The Apostle is speaking of the substance of these sufferings. Reply to Objection 2. This saying is to be understood of the first cause of our reaching everlasting life, viz. God's mercy. But our merit is a subsequent cause. Reply to Objection 3. The grace of the Holy Ghost which we have at present, although unequal to glory in act, is equal to it virtually as the seed of a tree, wherein the whole tree is virtually. So likewise by grace of the Holy Ghost dwells in man; and He is a sufficient cause of life everlasting; hence, 2 Corinthians 1:22, He is called the "pledge" of our inheritance. God Bless the Holy Catholic Church for defending the prerogatives of the human individual - free will and reason - given to him by God when He created us in His image. 
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LOL, it's like anti-Catholicism is the low spot on the floor where all water eventually runs with some of these types. The good news is that The Living Water of Jesus Christ has the power to fill in all our hearts empty voids! If you believe that The Living Water of Jesus requires you to insult Catholics, then your 'heart' isn't as filled as you think. Not entirely sure how I’ve insulted Catholics here but I will agree that I need more of Jesus Christ! Jesus did come filled with grace and truth and while I try to talk about Biblical truth I don’t always put as much effort into the grace part. One thing maybe we both can agree on….while The Seat of Peter was sede vacante for a short time .....Jesus Christ has taken his seat with the Father and now intercedes for sinners like us!... “Let us therefore come boldly unto the throne of grace, that we may obtain mercy, and find grace to help in time of need” |
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Instead of spouting volumes of replies, why not read what was posted. My quotes from the Catechism are very straightforward and contradict your obtuse and blatantly false characterization of Catholicism as a whole.
Read the Church fathers. In the time frame before Scripture was canonized by the Church, there was only oral tradition through apostolic teaching. Catholicism is the Christianity of the immediate post apostolic period. This is the same Catholicism we see today. By contrast, Protestantism was invented in the time of Luther, 1500 years later. Fundamentalism even later. |
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[/quote]Both you and your christo-rapper are lacking in proper respect for the office represented by the Pope. The chain of command established with Peter in the Scripture and passed unbroken through 265 men to the present day is worthy of respect. Its not about the man, its about the office. The office that holds the keys to the kingdom as commanded by Christ himself.[/quote]
The Gospels speak volumes about the Pharisees of the day with their show of robes and status in society and how they put themselves above the law. Only Jesus Holds The Key's To The Kingdom, Not The Pope. Jesus gave Peter power and the keys in starting the church and yet Paul stood before him in public and called him out on snubbing the gentiles to impress the Jews and to win their favor, and what did the all powerful Peter do...He Repented and admitted he was wrong. I trust the Pope is a great man of God and he will lead the church well but he deserves no more respect than any other man who is called of God to a position of leadership..Remember Jesus was not a respecter of persons or their position in life. |
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Both you and your christo-rapper are lacking in proper respect for the office represented by the Pope. The chain of command established with Peter in the Scripture and passed unbroken through 265 men to the present day is worthy of respect. Its not about the man, its about the office. The office that holds the keys to the kingdom as commanded by Christ himself.
The Gospels speak volumes about the Pharisees of the day with their show of robes and status in society and how they put themselves above the law. Only Jesus Holds The Key's To The Kingdom, Not The Pope. Jesus gave Peter power and the keys in starting the church and yet Paul stood before him in public and called him out on snubbing the gentiles to impress the Jews and to win their favor, and what did the all powerful Peter do...He Repented and admitted he was wrong. I trust the Pope is a great man of God and he will lead the church well but he deserves no more respect than any other man who is called of God to a position of leadership..Remember Jesus was not a respecter of persons or their position in life. Are you comparing the celebration of the Eucharist to a Pharisaical practice? 
Because it sure sounds that way. 
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Both you and your christo-rapper are lacking in proper respect for the office represented by the Pope. The chain of command established with Peter in the Scripture and passed unbroken through 265 men to the present day is worthy of respect. Its not about the man, its about the office. The office that holds the keys to the kingdom as commanded by Christ himself.
The Gospels speak volumes about the Pharisees of the day with their show of robes and status in society and how they put themselves above the law. Only Jesus Holds The Key's To The Kingdom, Not The Pope. Jesus gave Peter power and the keys in starting the church and yet Paul stood before him in public and called him out on snubbing the gentiles to impress the Jews and to win their favor, and what did the all powerful Peter do...He Repented and admitted he was wrong. I trust the Pope is a great man of God and he will lead the church well but he deserves no more respect than any other man who is called of God to a position of leadership..Remember Jesus was not a respecter of persons or their position in life. You will note multiple times in Acts though, particularly in Acts 5, that when Peter spoke, the discussion was over. Done. THAT is the power of 'loosing and binding.' That is the power instilled into the Papacy. They obviously respected Peter, would you have less than that for the man who sits in his chair? Again, read the Church Fathers and their opinions on the matter. In that time period, the Church was decidedly Catholic, and it remains so today. |
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What will you guys do/or think once the government decides to tax the churches and strip them of their wealth to a point where they cant function anymore? Or what is going to happen when they turn on religion as a whole, starting with christianity?
That time is rapidly approaching. The RCC is one of the most wealthy organizations on earth. Europe is financially falling apart along with the whole world. The main religions have wealth that they will want. Once they go after the Catholic Church, it will be a domino effect and all the other churches in christendom will fall. Just wondering what everyone who is christian would think or do if the catholic church and all the rest were put out of business/destroyed by the governments. Could it not happen? |
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What will you guys do/or think once the government decides to tax the churches and strip them of their wealth to a point where they cant function anymore? Or what is going to happen when they turn on religion as a whole, starting with christianity? That time is rapidly approaching. The RCC is one of the most wealthy organizations on earth. Europe is financially falling apart along with the whole world. The main religions have wealth that they will want. Once they go after the Catholic Church, it will be a domino effect and all the other churches in christendom will fall. Just wondering what everyone who is christian would think or do if the catholic church and all the rest were put out of business/destroyed by the governments. Could it not happen? The Church will never fall, even if she gets pushed back to the Catacombs. "The gates of hell shall not prevail" and all that. |
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What will you guys do/or think once the government decides to tax the churches and strip them of their wealth to a point where they cant function anymore? Or what is going to happen when they turn on religion as a whole, starting with christianity? That time is rapidly approaching. The RCC is one of the most wealthy organizations on earth. Europe is financially falling apart along with the whole world. The main religions have wealth that they will want. Once they go after the Catholic Church, it will be a domino effect and all the other churches in christendom will fall. Just wondering what everyone who is christian would think or do if the catholic church and all the rest were put out of business/destroyed by the governments. Could it not happen? The Church will never fall, even if she gets pushed back to the Catacombs. "The gates of hell shall not prevail" and all that. "I expect to die in bed, my successor will die in prison and his successor will die a martyr in the public square. His successor will pick up the shards of a ruined society and slowly help rebuild civilization, as the church has done so often in human history."
Francis Cardinal George |
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What will you guys do/or think once the government decides to tax the churches and strip them of their wealth to a point where they cant function anymore? Or what is going to happen when they turn on religion as a whole, starting with christianity? That time is rapidly approaching. The RCC is one of the most wealthy organizations on earth. Europe is financially falling apart along with the whole world. The main religions have wealth that they will want. Once they go after the Catholic Church, it will be a domino effect and all the other churches in christendom will fall. Just wondering what everyone who is christian would think or do if the catholic church and all the rest were put out of business/destroyed by the governments. Could it not happen? Wealth to function?......Maybe a concern but not a huge worry. “Can’t function”…..is not something followers of Jesus are capable of. Because of Jesus our failures highlights his grace.. our success highlights his power.. we bring glory to Jesus when we preach, praise and live in freedom or in chains. The Church is built to go into a world that is going to hell. Part of our purpose is to show a world that rejects Jesus that when they reach the end of themselves…Jesus still stands. This is why I’m not a big fan of the Vatican. They are a part of what Jesus is doing …but they don’t have exclusive rights. When they fail…as they have done in History…The Church marches on. |
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FWIW...
I've been all over the world and seen the Catholic charities doing all sorts of great stuff. I'm talking hospitals and all sorts of things that people really need. I was also on the board of a church. I was employed there (ran the Worship team) and among other things we had a satellite church setup which had a mission of going out with our band (which had been my Blues/Soul group previously) and playing for the homeless and finding folks who we could get back on track. We acted like a clearinghouse for social services and counseling to get these guys/gals back into society. Nobody was doing anything like this in our area. So we were a little church filled with homeless folks playing classic rock type worship tunes and were fairly successful. Our parent church, tolerated us at best and did no other missionary work. They did however build themselves a 5.6 Million dollar new building and the senior pastor was making well into the 6 figures for working a couple days a week. We were using a building they owned for our little church and they started raising the rent on us with flimsy excuses. Eventually we were forced to move. Long story short they wanted to expand some more (Huge church up in the ultra rich part of town and they wanted to build some more) and needed to sell the old crappy building we were doing our missionary work in. It's office buildings now. I pitched our outreach to all the other mega-churches in the area and nobody was interested. The extent of their "mission related work" was a soup kitchen or possibly a Mexico trip once a year to build a house. A good friend of mine, the guy who got me into the gig did the books for all the big churches in the area and he'd told me not to waste my time. The only churches in the area using any of their prodigious wealth in good works was the Catholics. So yeah... Bash all you want but I've seen it from both sides. The non-denominational church movement is essentially a huge money-making scam. At least the LDS and the Catholics do something with it. |
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you are all in for a rude awakening.
When the church falls it will be a shock and everyone will see that the road they are on is the large one that is very easy to find and many are on leading off into destruction. "But werent we saying we believe in Jesus and didnt we do good things in his name"? Then Jesus says: get away from me, I never knew you, you workers of lawlessness. - Matthew 7: 22,23 Jesus said the road leading to life is small and very few find it...Is the catholic church and all the other churches of christendom few? The catholic church alone claims to have 1.2 billion. They also condone interfaith, so that would mean billions. Does that sound like a small cramped road that few are on as Jesus said? No one wants to actually dig into the bible and see what it really teaches, they would rather just stick with their traditions that have been engrained in them and just figure its the truth. |
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you are all in for a rude awakening. When the church falls it will be a shock and everyone will see that the road they are on is the large one that is very easy to find and many are on leading off into destruction. "But werent we saying we believe in Jesus and didnt we do good things in his name"? Then Jesus says: get away from me, I never knew you, you workers of lawlessness. - Matthew 7: 22,23 Jesus said the road leading to life is small and very few find it...Is the catholic church and all the other churches of christendom few? The catholic church alone claims to have 1.2 billion. They also condone interfaith, so that would mean billions. Does that sound like a small cramped road that few are on as Jesus said? No one wants to actually dig into the bible and see what it really teaches, they would rather just stick with their traditions that have been engrained in them and just figure its the truth. lol... lol... If the church fails we'll have Sweden. I'm fine with that. |
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What will you guys do/or think once the government decides to tax the churches and strip them of their wealth to a point where they cant function anymore? Or what is going to happen when they turn on religion as a whole, starting with christianity? That time is rapidly approaching. The RCC is one of the most wealthy organizations on earth. Europe is financially falling apart along with the whole world. The main religions have wealth that they will want. Once they go after the Catholic Church, it will be a domino effect and all the other churches in christendom will fall. Just wondering what everyone who is christian would think or do if the catholic church and all the rest were put out of business/destroyed by the governments. Could it not happen? Wealth to function?......Maybe a concern but not a huge worry. “Can’t function”…..is not something followers of Jesus are capable of. Because of Jesus our failures highlights his grace.. our success highlights his power.. we bring glory to him when we preach, praise and bring our King glory in freedom or in chains. The Church is built to go into a world that is going to hell. Part of our purpose is to show a world that rejects Jesus that when they reach the end of themselves…Jesus still stands. This is why I’m not a big fan of the Vatican. They are a part of what Jesus is doing …but they don’t have exclusive rights. When they fail…as they have done in History…The Church marches on. Last post is rife with irony. The Church that Jesus Christ founded on earth IS the Catholic Church, historically, spiritually, liturgically and scripturally. |
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you are all in for a rude awakening. When the church falls it will be a shock and everyone will see that the road they are on is the large one that is very easy to find and many are on leading off into destruction. "But werent we saying we believe in Jesus and didnt we do good things in his name"? Then Jesus says: get away from me, I never knew you, you workers of lawlessness. - Matthew 7: 22,23 Jesus said the road leading to life is small and very few find it...Is the catholic church and all the other churches of christendom few? The catholic church alone claims to have 1.2 billion. They also condone interfaith, so that would mean billions. Does that sound like a small cramped road that few are on as Jesus said? No one wants to actually dig into the bible and see what it really teaches, they would rather just stick with their traditions that have been engrained in them and just figure its the truth. Big problem Timmay. Oral tradition and apostolic succession predate the Canon of Scripture by several hundred years. Take a read of some books like Crossing the Tiber or Ante-Nicene Fathers and then come back and lecture me on tradition. |
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you are all in for a rude awakening. When the church falls it will be a shock and everyone will see that the road they are on is the large one that is very easy to find and many are on leading off into destruction. "But werent we saying we believe in Jesus and didnt we do good things in his name"? Then Jesus says: get away from me, I never knew you, you workers of lawlessness. - Matthew 7: 22,23 Jesus said the road leading to life is small and very few find it...Is the catholic church and all the other churches of christendom few? The catholic church alone claims to have 1.2 billion. They also condone interfaith, so that would mean billions. Does that sound like a small cramped road that few are on as Jesus said? No one wants to actually dig into the bible and see what it really teaches, they would rather just stick with their traditions that have been engrained in them and just figure its the truth. So salvation is impossible if you belong to a large church. I see it so clearly now...... 
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FWIW... I've been all over the world and seen the Catholic charities doing all sorts of great stuff. I'm talking hospitals and all sorts of things that people really need. I was also on the board of a church. I was employed there (ran the Worship team) and among other things we had a satellite church setup which had a mission of going out with our band (which had been my Blues/Soul group previously) and playing for the homeless and finding folks who we could get back on track. We acted like a clearinghouse for social services and counseling to get these guys/gals back into society. Nobody was doing anything like this in our area. So we were a little church filled with homeless folks playing classic rock type worship tunes and were fairly successful. Our parent church, tolerated us at best and did no other missionary work. They did however build themselves a 5.6 Million dollar new building and the senior pastor was making well into the 6 figures for working a couple days a week. We were using a building they owned for our little church and they started raising the rent on us with flimsy excuses. Eventually we were forced to move. Long story short they wanted to expand some more (Huge church up in the ultra rich part of town and they wanted to build some more) and needed to sell the old crappy building we were doing our missionary work in. It's office buildings now. I pitched our outreach to all the other mega-churches in the area and nobody was interested. The extent of their "mission related work" was a soup kitchen or possibly a Mexico trip once a year to build a house. A good friend of mine, the guy who got me into the gig did the books for all the big churches in the area and he'd told me not to waste my time. The only churches in the area using any of their prodigious wealth in good works was the Catholics. So yeah... Bash all you want but I've seen it from both sides. The non-denominational church movement is essentially a huge money-making scam. At least the LDS and the Catholics do something with it. That is either very poor information or a blatant lie. It would be easy to post dozens more just like this. |
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FWIW... I've been all over the world and seen the Catholic charities doing all sorts of great stuff. I'm talking hospitals and all sorts of things that people really need. I was also on the board of a church. I was employed there (ran the Worship team) and among other things we had a satellite church setup which had a mission of going out with our band (which had been my Blues/Soul group previously) and playing for the homeless and finding folks who we could get back on track. We acted like a clearinghouse for social services and counseling to get these guys/gals back into society. Nobody was doing anything like this in our area. So we were a little church filled with homeless folks playing classic rock type worship tunes and were fairly successful. Our parent church, tolerated us at best and did no other missionary work. They did however build themselves a 5.6 Million dollar new building and the senior pastor was making well into the 6 figures for working a couple days a week. We were using a building they owned for our little church and they started raising the rent on us with flimsy excuses. Eventually we were forced to move. Long story short they wanted to expand some more (Huge church up in the ultra rich part of town and they wanted to build some more) and needed to sell the old crappy building we were doing our missionary work in. It's office buildings now. I pitched our outreach to all the other mega-churches in the area and nobody was interested. The extent of their "mission related work" was a soup kitchen or possibly a Mexico trip once a year to build a house. A good friend of mine, the guy who got me into the gig did the books for all the big churches in the area and he'd told me not to waste my time. The only churches in the area using any of their prodigious wealth in good works was the Catholics. So yeah... Bash all you want but I've seen it from both sides. The non-denominational church movement is essentially a huge money-making scam. At least the LDS and the Catholics do something with it. That is either very poor information or a blatant lie. So another man's personal experience is a blatant lie? Can't be poor information since its his personal story. What exactly do you object to here? |
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What will you guys do/or think once the government decides to tax the churches and strip them of their wealth to a point where they cant function anymore? Or what is going to happen when they turn on religion as a whole, starting with christianity? That time is rapidly approaching. The RCC is one of the most wealthy organizations on earth. Europe is financially falling apart along with the whole world. The main religions have wealth that they will want. Once they go after the Catholic Church, it will be a domino effect and all the other churches in christendom will fall. Just wondering what everyone who is christian would think or do if the catholic church and all the rest were put out of business/destroyed by the governments. Could it not happen? Wealth to function?......Maybe a concern but not a huge worry. “Can’t function”…..is not something followers of Jesus are capable of. Because of Jesus our failures highlights his grace.. our success highlights his power.. we bring glory to him when we preach, praise and bring our King glory in freedom or in chains. The Church is built to go into a world that is going to hell. Part of our purpose is to show a world that rejects Jesus that when they reach the end of themselves…Jesus still stands. This is why I’m not a big fan of the Vatican. They are a part of what Jesus is doing …but they don’t have exclusive rights. When they fail…as they have done in History…The Church marches on. Last post is rife with irony. The Church that Jesus Christ founded on earth IS the Catholic Church, historically, spiritually, liturgically and scripturally. Catholic as in Universal Church… yes….Catholic as in the system managed by the Vatican in Rome…no. But you knew I would say that. You know where I stand on the matter…and I you….I don’t think we have any further need for semantics. I’m doing my best to highlight the things I share with my Roman Catholic brothers and sisters who do love Jesus…without pretending I give allegiance to the Roman Catholic Church/Vatican. There is a fine line between people who love Jesus discussing their theological differences and those same people making asses of themselves through hot tempered rambling diatribes….of which I admit to being guilty. Reading back over the posts I feel like we both made our points on the topic of Grace and Merit pretty well and came to an amicable difference. If you would like to constructively discuss a new topics or return to the previous topic for more clarity the floor is yours. In the meantime I vote that we avoid any further single sentence provocative sparing. |
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FWIW... I've been all over the world and seen the Catholic charities doing all sorts of great stuff. I'm talking hospitals and all sorts of things that people really need. I was also on the board of a church. I was employed there (ran the Worship team) and among other things we had a satellite church setup which had a mission of going out with our band (which had been my Blues/Soul group previously) and playing for the homeless and finding folks who we could get back on track. We acted like a clearinghouse for social services and counseling to get these guys/gals back into society. Nobody was doing anything like this in our area. So we were a little church filled with homeless folks playing classic rock type worship tunes and were fairly successful. Our parent church, tolerated us at best and did no other missionary work. They did however build themselves a 5.6 Million dollar new building and the senior pastor was making well into the 6 figures for working a couple days a week. We were using a building they owned for our little church and they started raising the rent on us with flimsy excuses. Eventually we were forced to move. Long story short they wanted to expand some more (Huge church up in the ultra rich part of town and they wanted to build some more) and needed to sell the old crappy building we were doing our missionary work in. It's office buildings now. I pitched our outreach to all the other mega-churches in the area and nobody was interested. The extent of their "mission related work" was a soup kitchen or possibly a Mexico trip once a year to build a house. A good friend of mine, the guy who got me into the gig did the books for all the big churches in the area and he'd told me not to waste my time. The only churches in the area using any of their prodigious wealth in good works was the Catholics. So yeah... Bash all you want but I've seen it from both sides. The non-denominational church movement is essentially a huge money-making scam. At least the LDS and the Catholics do something with it. That is either very poor information or a blatant lie. Several churches in the area who are paying their pastors six figure incomes and almost no outreach whatsoever. See, here's how it works. You can't have people who are at the ragged edge of society coming to your church. If that happens all your tithing base leaves. Well off yuppie families don't feel comfortable around stinky homeless folks and junkies. They want to go to a nice big beautiful sanctuary with a $300k sound system and "worship" with people of similar station and feel good about themselves and then go home and live their lives. They're the people who financially support the church. The people who do the mission work, the people who are all about helping those in need aren't really compatible with that crowd. They're in dingy little churches in the 3rd world, or under overpasses in the inner city, or whatever actually doing what they see as Gods work. Unfortunately, junkies, whores, thieves, etc. don't pay the bills. |
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you are all in for a rude awakening. When the church falls it will be a shock and everyone will see that the road they are on is the large one that is very easy to find and many are on leading off into destruction. "But werent we saying we believe in Jesus and didnt we do good things in his name"? Then Jesus says: get away from me, I never knew you, you workers of lawlessness. - Matthew 7: 22,23 Jesus said the road leading to life is small and very few find it...Is the catholic church and all the other churches of christendom few? The catholic church alone claims to have 1.2 billion. They also condone interfaith, so that would mean billions. Does that sound like a small cramped road that few are on as Jesus said? No one wants to actually dig into the bible and see what it really teaches, they would rather just stick with their traditions that have been engrained in them and just figure its the truth. So salvation is impossible if you belong to a large church. I see it so clearly now...... Agreeing with TWIRE here….can’t say I’m sure I understand the narrow road correlating to an exact number of people. Unless maybe, you're Jehovah Witness? It’s always better for conversation if we just state what we believe or ask a clear question on a matter. The Bible is clear that the road of Truth is narrow but I cant see how that means we can arive at a particular number of people who go down it. Yes, deception is real and there are many false jesus teachings out there… but I don’t believe that fact limits the exact number of people who believe in Jesus Christ as he makes himself known through the Bible. I think I see your point if it's Highlighting that there will be many people who attend various churches yet simply have no desire to place Jesus as Lord of their life. A symbolic religious aspect but no real change of the heart. The key there is heart….we can’t see the hearts of men. If someone reads the Bible and places their faith in Jesus Christ we are on dangerous ground if we start separating them based on denominations. False teachings need to be confronted… but there are also many simple differences of opinion on non essential aspects of the Bible and Christian Living. If I tell you that Jesus Christ is one of many gods…you should have a serious problem and have clear Biblical teaching to support truth. If I tell you that your infant should be baptized or which types of musical instruments to use in worship …the problem is far less serious. |
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FWIW... I've been all over the world and seen the Catholic charities doing all sorts of great stuff. I'm talking hospitals and all sorts of things that people really need. I was also on the board of a church. I was employed there (ran the Worship team) and among other things we had a satellite church setup which had a mission of going out with our band (which had been my Blues/Soul group previously) and playing for the homeless and finding folks who we could get back on track. We acted like a clearinghouse for social services and counseling to get these guys/gals back into society. Nobody was doing anything like this in our area. So we were a little church filled with homeless folks playing classic rock type worship tunes and were fairly successful. Our parent church, tolerated us at best and did no other missionary work. They did however build themselves a 5.6 Million dollar new building and the senior pastor was making well into the 6 figures for working a couple days a week. We were using a building they owned for our little church and they started raising the rent on us with flimsy excuses. Eventually we were forced to move. Long story short they wanted to expand some more (Huge church up in the ultra rich part of town and they wanted to build some more) and needed to sell the old crappy building we were doing our missionary work in. It's office buildings now. I pitched our outreach to all the other mega-churches in the area and nobody was interested. The extent of their "mission related work" was a soup kitchen or possibly a Mexico trip once a year to build a house. A good friend of mine, the guy who got me into the gig did the books for all the big churches in the area and he'd told me not to waste my time. The only churches in the area using any of their prodigious wealth in good works was the Catholics. So yeah... Bash all you want but I've seen it from both sides. The non-denominational church movement is essentially a huge money-making scam. At least the LDS and the Catholics do something with it. That is either very poor information or a blatant lie. Several churches in the area who are paying their pastors six figure incomes and almost no outreach whatsoever. See, here's how it works. You can't have people who are at the ragged edge of society coming to your church. If that happens all your tithing base leaves. Well off yuppie families don't feel comfortable around stinky homeless folks and junkies. They want to go to a nice big beautiful sanctuary with a $300k sound system and "worship" with people of similar station and feel good about themselves and then go home and live their lives. They're the people who financially support the church. The people who do the mission work, the people who are all about helping those in need aren't really compatible with that crowd. They're in dingy little churches in the 3rd world, or under overpasses in the inner city, or whatever actually doing what they see as Gods work. Unfortunately, junkies, whores, thieves, etc. don't pay the bills. I think I see your point….and I also think you would like Martin Luther. 
We have to be careful though…we don’t simply want to start labeling every mega church as a wasteful and insincere…. any more so than we want to label the small Churches as cliquish cults. You’re personal experience might be accurate in a few cases… but that’s not ground to say that LDS and Catholics are the only ones doing any real good. I would say that if you randomly showed up at any LDS or Catholic Church asking for the funds to start a soup kitchen and make trips to Mexico….there would be some questions asked and a lengthy delay between the requestmade and the funds given. |
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FWIW... I've been all over the world and seen the Catholic charities doing all sorts of great stuff. I'm talking hospitals and all sorts of things that people really need. I was also on the board of a church. I was employed there (ran the Worship team) and among other things we had a satellite church setup which had a mission of going out with our band (which had been my Blues/Soul group previously) and playing for the homeless and finding folks who we could get back on track. We acted like a clearinghouse for social services and counseling to get these guys/gals back into society. Nobody was doing anything like this in our area. So we were a little church filled with homeless folks playing classic rock type worship tunes and were fairly successful. Our parent church, tolerated us at best and did no other missionary work. They did however build themselves a 5.6 Million dollar new building and the senior pastor was making well into the 6 figures for working a couple days a week. We were using a building they owned for our little church and they started raising the rent on us with flimsy excuses. Eventually we were forced to move. Long story short they wanted to expand some more (Huge church up in the ultra rich part of town and they wanted to build some more) and needed to sell the old crappy building we were doing our missionary work in. It's office buildings now. I pitched our outreach to all the other mega-churches in the area and nobody was interested. The extent of their "mission related work" was a soup kitchen or possibly a Mexico trip once a year to build a house. A good friend of mine, the guy who got me into the gig did the books for all the big churches in the area and he'd told me not to waste my time. The only churches in the area using any of their prodigious wealth in good works was the Catholics. So yeah... Bash all you want but I've seen it from both sides. The non-denominational church movement is essentially a huge money-making scam. At least the LDS and the Catholics do something with it. That is either very poor information or a blatant lie. Several churches in the area who are paying their pastors six figure incomes and almost no outreach whatsoever. See, here's how it works. You can't have people who are at the ragged edge of society coming to your church. If that happens all your tithing base leaves. Well off yuppie families don't feel comfortable around stinky homeless folks and junkies. They want to go to a nice big beautiful sanctuary with a $300k sound system and "worship" with people of similar station and feel good about themselves and then go home and live their lives. They're the people who financially support the church. The people who do the mission work, the people who are all about helping those in need aren't really compatible with that crowd. They're in dingy little churches in the 3rd world, or under overpasses in the inner city, or whatever actually doing what they see as Gods work. Unfortunately, junkies, whores, thieves, etc. don't pay the bills. I think I see your point….and I also think you would like Martin Luther.
We have to be careful though…we don’t simply want to start labeling every mega church as a wasteful and insincere…. any more so than we want to label the small Churches as cliquish cults. You’re personal experience might be accurate in a few cases… but that’s not ground to say that LDS and Catholics are the only ones doing any real good. I would say that if you randomly showed up at any LDS or Catholic Church asking for the funds to start a soup kitchen and make trips to Mexico….there would be some questions asked and a lengthy delay between the requestmade and the funds given. Oh I totally understand. I'm a huge fan of Martin Luther. Him and Gutenberg were probably the two most important people in Christianity in the last thousand years or so. My point was that given my travels around the more impoverished parts of the pacific rim and S-Pacific, and given who I saw doing the bulk of the heavy lifting, there were a host of NGO's, there was the Peace Corps, and there was the Catholic Church. I've got family who go on "Mission" trips to Idaho FFS. I'm thinking if you want to go on a Mission go were you're needed, not a bastion of relatively high concentration of Christians who are fairly well off. At least go to Detroit where there's folks living in tent cities outside the city. This guy had a great speech on doing good works and being successful as an NGO. Youtube Vid |
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I would say that if you randomly showed up at any LDS or Catholic Church asking for the funds to start a soup kitchen and make trips to Mexico….there would be some questions asked and a lengthy delay between the requestmade and the funds given. This statement makes no sense. Both the Catholic Church and LDS have constant missionary and relief presences everywhere in the world. You wouldn't need to 'randomly show up' to either if you wanted to start a soup kitchen or contribute to poor people. You'd just make your donation (either time or $$$) to a structure that already exists. |
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you are all in for a rude awakening. When the church falls it will be a shock and everyone will see that the road they are on is the large one that is very easy to find and many are on leading off into destruction. "But werent we saying we believe in Jesus and didnt we do good things in his name"? Then Jesus says: get away from me, I never knew you, you workers of lawlessness. - Matthew 7: 22,23 Jesus said the road leading to life is small and very few find it...Is the catholic church and all the other churches of christendom few? The catholic church alone claims to have 1.2 billion. They also condone interfaith, so that would mean billions. Does that sound like a small cramped road that few are on as Jesus said? No one wants to actually dig into the bible and see what it really teaches, they would rather just stick with their traditions that have been engrained in them and just figure its the truth. Big problem Timmay. Oral tradition and apostolic succession predate the Canon of Scripture by several hundred years. Take a read of some books like Crossing the Tiber or Ante-Nicene Fathers and then come back and lecture me on tradition. Remember what Jesus said about the Jews who thought they were doing gods will by their traditions? These traditions were teachings of men, just as the ones most follow today. Why would you take mans oral traditions and uninspired books as doctrine over Jesus' own words in the bible? Theres so many traditions that have no basis in the bible. Just a few: transubstantiation, infant baptism, image veneration, praying to saints, praying to or through mary, liturgies, worshiping the cross, bowing before statues, chanting prayers with beads and not to mention all the pagan traditions celebrated as christian holy days like Easter and Christmas. Are you able to show in the bible (which is the entire foundation of the christian faith) where any of these things are shown to be done by Christ or his apostles or any of his disciples? |
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you are all in for a rude awakening. When the church falls it will be a shock and everyone will see that the road they are on is the large one that is very easy to find and many are on leading off into destruction. "But werent we saying we believe in Jesus and didnt we do good things in his name"? Then Jesus says: get away from me, I never knew you, you workers of lawlessness. - Matthew 7: 22,23 Jesus said the road leading to life is small and very few find it...Is the catholic church and all the other churches of christendom few? The catholic church alone claims to have 1.2 billion. They also condone interfaith, so that would mean billions. Does that sound like a small cramped road that few are on as Jesus said? No one wants to actually dig into the bible and see what it really teaches, they would rather just stick with their traditions that have been engrained in them and just figure its the truth. So salvation is impossible if you belong to a large church. I see it so clearly now...... I was just making a comparison to what Jesus said about the road to life being small and few find it in contrast to the vastness of people who claim to be christian (billions) Doesnt make you wonder about his illustration of the road leading to destruction being vast and spacious with many on it? One simple scripture that says how salvation is capable is John 17:3 "this means eternal life, they taking in knowledge of you the only true God and the one whom you sent, Jesus Christ" Taking in accurate knowledge of God and his son is the key. Not taking in knowledge of man made traditions that say they are based on the bible |
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you are all in for a rude awakening. When the church falls it will be a shock and everyone will see that the road they are on is the large one that is very easy to find and many are on leading off into destruction. "But werent we saying we believe in Jesus and didnt we do good things in his name"? Then Jesus says: get away from me, I never knew you, you workers of lawlessness. - Matthew 7: 22,23 Jesus said the road leading to life is small and very few find it...Is the catholic church and all the other churches of christendom few? The catholic church alone claims to have 1.2 billion. They also condone interfaith, so that would mean billions. Does that sound like a small cramped road that few are on as Jesus said? No one wants to actually dig into the bible and see what it really teaches, they would rather just stick with their traditions that have been engrained in them and just figure its the truth. So salvation is impossible if you belong to a large church. I see it so clearly now...... Agreeing with TWIRE here….can’t say I’m sure I understand the narrow road correlating to an exact number of people. Unless maybe, you're Jehovah Witness? It’s always better for conversation if we just state what we believe or ask a clear question on a matter. The Bible is clear that the road of Truth is narrow but I cant see how that means we can arive at a particular number of people who go down it. Yes, deception is real and there are many false jesus teachings out there… but I don’t believe that fact limits the exact number of people who believe in Jesus Christ as he makes himself known through the Bible. I think I see your point if it's Highlighting that there will be many people who attend various churches yet simply have no desire to place Jesus as Lord of their life. A symbolic religious aspect but no real change of the heart. The key there is heart….we can’t see the hearts of men. If someone reads the Bible and places their faith in Jesus Christ we are on dangerous ground if we start separating them based on denominations. False teachings need to be confronted… but there are also many simple differences of opinion on non essential aspects of the Bible and Christian Living. If I tell you that Jesus Christ is one of many gods…you should have a serious problem and have clear Biblical teaching to support truth. If I tell you that your infant should be baptized or which types of musical instruments to use in worship …the problem is far less serious. I understand what your saying. But I didnt mean that a certain number of people will be on the road Jesus spoke of. He just said that there would be many (very large number) on the road leading to destruction and that very few will find the road to life. I disagree about your statement on infant baptism. Baptism is very serious. The bibe clearly teaches that one must come to an accurate knowledge and be able to make his own decision to repent of his sins and dedicate his life to God. How can an infant do this? It also says that you must be completely submersed in water not sprinkled. Baptism isnt something to be held as a technicality but it means we come into a special relationship/covenant with God.....it means our life |
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Anti-Catholic diatribe at 1:22. So, more to the point, what fight is there actually, if we are saved by faith. If our actions (works) do not matter, and we are saved by faith alone, what exactly are we supposed to be resisting? While we're saved by grace, it doesn't mean that we are free to go back to our former wicked ways, James Chapter 2, starting with verse 14. Of what benefit is it, my brothers, if a certain one says he has faith but he does not have works? That faith cannot save him, can it?15If a brother or a sister is in a naked state and lacking the food sufficient for the day,16yet a certain one of YOU says to them: “Go in peace, keep warm and well fed,” but YOU do not give them the necessities for [their] body, of what benefit is it?17Thus, too, faith, if it does not have works, is dead in itself. |
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you are all in for a rude awakening. When the church falls it will be a shock and everyone will see that the road they are on is the large one that is very easy to find and many are on leading off into destruction. "But werent we saying we believe in Jesus and didnt we do good things in his name"? Then Jesus says: get away from me, I never knew you, you workers of lawlessness. - Matthew 7: 22,23 Jesus said the road leading to life is small and very few find it...Is the catholic church and all the other churches of christendom few? The catholic church alone claims to have 1.2 billion. They also condone interfaith, so that would mean billions. Does that sound like a small cramped road that few are on as Jesus said? No one wants to actually dig into the bible and see what it really teaches, they would rather just stick with their traditions that have been engrained in them and just figure its the truth. Big problem Timmay. Oral tradition and apostolic succession predate the Canon of Scripture by several hundred years. Take a read of some books like Crossing the Tiber or Ante-Nicene Fathers and then come back and lecture me on tradition. Remember what Jesus said about the Jews who thought they were doing gods will by their traditions? These traditions were teachings of men, just as the ones most follow today. Why would you take mans oral traditions and uninspired books as doctrine over Jesus' own words in the bible? Theres so many traditions that have no basis in the bible. Just a few: transubstantiation, infant baptism, image veneration, praying to saints, praying to or through mary, liturgies, worshiping the cross, bowing before statues, chanting prayers with beads and not to mention all the pagan traditions celebrated as christian holy days like Easter and Christmas. Are you able to show in the bible (which is the entire foundation of the christian faith) where any of these things are shown to be done by Christ or his apostles or any of his disciples? Yes. All of them. If you want to go thru them all, I'd be happy to go over each with you, but having been down that road several dozen times in the last decade, I'm not exactly looking forward to it because those arguments always go the same direction. The Catholic Church embraces the totality of Scripture, because Sacred Scripture is part of Sacred Tradition. Sola scriptura and sola fide do not exist in Scripture or Tradition, therefore the Bible cannot be 'the entire foundation of the Christian faith.' You have been fed a pack of lies for the last 500 or so years. But the real point is that the Bible did not instruct the apostles or the early Church on liturgical matter or sacred tradition. The Church was already functioning in the apostolic and post apostolic period before the books of the New Testament were written, much less canonized. So how exactly did that happen? Thru the words of instruction of disciples and bishops. The revelation of God's truth comes though Sacred Tradition and Sacred Scripture. The Scripture is a description of that Sacred Tradition already deposited in the nascent Church. That's what Paul was referring to in 2 Thess 2:15. To deny such is to deny the historical record and totality of Scripture. Seriously read Crossing the Tiber or better yet The Catechism of the Catholic Church (but you better have a Bible, the writings of the Church fathers and the documents of Vatican II handy to page through the tens of thousands of annotations). |
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you are all in for a rude awakening. When the church falls it will be a shock and everyone will see that the road they are on is the large one that is very easy to find and many are on leading off into destruction. "But werent we saying we believe in Jesus and didnt we do good things in his name"? Then Jesus says: get away from me, I never knew you, you workers of lawlessness. - Matthew 7: 22,23 Jesus said the road leading to life is small and very few find it...Is the catholic church and all the other churches of christendom few? The catholic church alone claims to have 1.2 billion. They also condone interfaith, so that would mean billions. Does that sound like a small cramped road that few are on as Jesus said? No one wants to actually dig into the bible and see what it really teaches, they would rather just stick with their traditions that have been engrained in them and just figure its the truth. Big problem Timmay. Oral tradition and apostolic succession predate the Canon of Scripture by several hundred years. Take a read of some books like Crossing the Tiber or Ante-Nicene Fathers and then come back and lecture me on tradition. Remember what Jesus said about the Jews who thought they were doing gods will by their traditions? These traditions were teachings of men, just as the ones most follow today. Why would you take mans oral traditions and uninspired books as doctrine over Jesus' own words in the bible? Theres so many traditions that have no basis in the bible. Just a few: transubstantiation, infant baptism, image veneration, praying to saints, praying to or through mary, liturgies, worshiping the cross, bowing before statues, chanting prayers with beads and not to mention all the pagan traditions celebrated as christian holy days like Easter and Christmas. Are you able to show in the bible (which is the entire foundation of the christian faith) where any of these things are shown to be done by Christ or his apostles or any of his disciples? Yes. All of them. If you want to go thru them all, I'd be happy to go over each with you, but having been down that road several dozen times in the last decade, I'm not exactly looking forward to it because those arguments always go the same direction. The Catholic Church embraces the totality of Scripture, because Sacred Scripture is part of Sacred Tradition. Sola scriptura and sola fide do not exist in Scripture or Tradition, therefore the Bible cannot be 'the entire foundation of the Christian faith.' You have been fed a pack of lies for the last 500 or so years. But the real point is that the Bible did not instruct the apostles or the early Church on liturgical matter or sacred tradition. The Church was already functioning in the apostolic and post apostolic period before the books of the New Testament were written, much less canonized. So how exactly did that happen? Thru the words of instruction of disciples and bishops. The revelation of God's truth comes though Sacred Tradition and Sacred Scripture. The Scripture is a description of that Sacred Tradition already deposited in the nascent Church. That's what Paul was referring to in 2 Thess 2:15. To deny such is to deny the historical record and totality of Scripture. Seriously read Crossing the Tiber or better yet The Catechism of the Catholic Church (but you better have a Bible, the writings of the Church fathers and the documents of Vatican II handy to page through the tens of thousands of annotations). You dont have to get too detailed ( I know its a pain trying to on a forum) but lets just talk about a couple. Can you point me to where in the bible that says infants should be baptized? And praying to saints. Lets just start with those two for now. Are those in scripture? If these arent found in scripture but only in oral traditions, are they at least in harmony with what Jesus says about baptism and praying to God? |
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Here are links to full explanations...
Infant Baptism Intercession of the Saints |
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...the bible (which is the entire foundation of the christian faith) ... Can you show me in the Bible where it says that only the Bible is the entire foundation of the Christian faith? See, you have your traditions too.  I do remember the Bible saying something was the foundation of the the truth...but I just can't remember....oh yeah! It's the Church! (1 Tim 3:15) 
Also, Jesus is the foundation of the Christian faith, not the Bible. The Bible is a book that transmits the Word of God. <a href="http://www.catholicscomehome.org/" target="_blank">http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_Cq2Z1j3ugQs/TKSzNJuZlYI/AAAAAAAAFss/-kAscMFjBLQ/s400/Sola+Scriptura+Problem.jpg</a> Sorry I'm feeling ornery tonight.
Ornery….funny thing is, an ornery monk once grew tired of a Church that had placed itself over truth. He used the Bible to correct a Church that had lost its way; men who thought they had power over truth…placed themselves in the position of decreeing truth. The Vatican would like to have to job of reviling truth and convicting the hearts of men….but that job has been taken. |
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If you want proof texts, I can do that too, but I figure you already know the Bible. So for now, I'll list some stuff you may not be familiar with.
First, you must understand the concept of the communion of saints. We read in Scripture that the Father is a 'God of the living, not the dead.' Death cannot separate us from Christ as we read in Romans. The saints are alive in Christ therefore they are part of the Body of Christ, just as we on earth are. We do not pray 'to' the saints, although that euphemism is often used. Rather, we pray with the saints and ask them to pray for us. Just as we ask those in our earthly Church to pray for us because, as it says in James, the prayers of the just avails much. No one worships or adores saints. The practice was woven into the fabric of the early Church. Origen But not the high priest [Christ] alone prays for those who pray sincerely, but also the angels... as also the souls of the saints who have already fallen asleep (On Prayer II [A.D. 233]). Cyprian of Carthage Let us remember one another in concord and unanimity. Let us on both sides always pray for one another. Let us relieve burdens and afflictions by mutual love, that if one of us, by the swiftness of divine condescension, shall go hence the first, our love may continue in the presence of the Lord, and our prayers for our brethren and sisters not cease in the presence of the Father's mercy (Letters 56[60]:5 [A.D. 252]). Cyril of Jerusalem Then [during the Eucharistic prayer] we make mention also of those who have already fallen asleep: first, the patriarchs, prophets, apostles, and martyrs, that through their prayers and supplications God would receive our petition... (Catechetical Lectures 23:9 [A.D. 350]). We see in the New Testament several references to entire households being baptized. This included the children. Jesus admonished the disciples NOT to hinder the children coming to Him. Infant baptism was the norm in the early Church as evidenced by numerous writings from the period. The only controversy was whether to delay baptism til the 8th day as a parallel to circumcision. A tiny sample below. Irenaeus "He [Jesus] came to save all through himself; all, I say, who through him are reborn in God: infants, and children, and youths, and old men. Therefore he passed through every age, becoming an infant for infants, sanctifying infants; a child for children, sanctifying those who are of that age . . . [so that] he might be the perfect teacher in all things, perfect not only in respect to the setting forth of truth, perfect also in respect to relative age" (Against Heresies 2:22:4 [A.D. 189]). Hippolytus "Baptize first the children, and if they can speak for themselves let them do so. Otherwise, let their parents or other relatives speak for them" (The Apostolic Tradition 21:16 [A.D. 215]). Origen "Every soul that is born into flesh is soiled by the filth of wickedness and sin. . . . In the Church, baptism is given for the remission of sins, and, according to the usage of the Church, baptism is given even to infants. If there were nothing in infants which required the remission of sins and nothing in them pertinent to forgiveness, the grace of baptism would seem superfluous" (Homilies on Leviticus 8:3 [A.D. 248]). Luther, Calvin, Sproul, and Francis Schaeffer all accepted infant baptism as the standard practice of the early Church, and as Biblical. |
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...the bible (which is the entire foundation of the christian faith) ... Can you show me in the Bible where it says that only the Bible is the entire foundation of the Christian faith? See, you have your traditions too. I do remember the Bible saying something was the foundation of the the truth...but I just can't remember....oh yeah! It's the Church! (1 Tim 3:15)
Also, Jesus is the foundation of the Christian faith, not the Bible. The Bible is a book that transmits the Word of God. <a href="http://www.catholicscomehome.org/" target="_blank">http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_Cq2Z1j3ugQs/TKSzNJuZlYI/AAAAAAAAFss/-kAscMFjBLQ/s400/Sola+Scriptura+Problem.jpg</a> Sorry I'm feeling ornery tonight.
Ornery….funny thing is, an ornery monk once grew tired of a Church that had placed itself over truth. He used the Bible to correct a Church that had lost its way; men who thought they had power over truth…placed themselves in the position of decreeing truth. The Vatican would like to have to job of reviling truth and convicting the hearts of men….but that job has been taken. I think you meant reVEALing truth. But I wouldn't let spelling stand in the way of another opportunity to cast aspersions at the RCC. "I never approved of a schism, nor will I approve of it for all eternity . . . That the Roman Church is more honored by God than all others is not to be doubted . . . It is not by separating from the Church that we can make her better." Martin Luther, Letter to Pope Leo X January 6, 1519 Mind you that Luther posted the 95 Theses on October 31 of 1517. The statement above is therefore about one year and two months after his posting of the famous objections. This would indicate that even over a year after the Wittenburg incident, Luther still saw himself as a Roman Catholic opposed to schism. The Vatican already enjoys that privilege by means of the commission that Jesus gave to the Peter in Matthew 16:19. |