Posted: 1/11/2004 2:20:32 PM EDT
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Don't know if you all have seen this video, its a good one. home.columbus.rr.com/imagetek/Apache%20Helicopter%20Incident.mpeg 4.6MB file download. |
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Considering how well that gun shoots- and technicly its considered a AREA fire suppression weapon if you ask the Army- why cant we use a gun turret like that to stop high speed car chases? If 30mm is too much, put a .50cal in the same kind of mount. Although I bet the 30mm TP ammo would be destructive enough for LE use. Put something like that on a MDD NOTAR heilo- no one would know what happened, or where it was coming from. |
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Quoted: Video filename is different, but it's the same video for those who have already seen it. Video is the same as the one posted in this thread: [url]www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=1&f=5&t=222905[/url] Just trying to save someone from d/ling the video again. Do any of the links work on the old thread? |
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Quoted: Considering how well that gun shoots- and technicly its considered a AREA fire suppression weapon if you ask the Army- why cant we use a gun turret like that to stop high speed car chases? If 30mm is too much, put a .50cal in the same kind of mount. Although I bet the 30mm TP ammo would be destructive enough for LE use. Put something like that on a MDD NOTAR heilo- no one would know what happened, or where it was coming from. Are you serious?! You actually believe that would be a great idea? I guess you wouldn't mind them shooting it to stop a car in front of YOUR house? |
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Quoted: Quoted: Considering how well that gun shoots- and technicly its considered a AREA fire suppression weapon if you ask the Army- why cant we use a gun turret like that to stop high speed car chases? If 30mm is too much, put a .50cal in the same kind of mount. Although I bet the 30mm TP ammo would be destructive enough for LE use. Put something like that on a MDD NOTAR heilo- no one would know what happened, or where it was coming from. Are you serious?! You actually believe that would be a great idea? I guess you wouldn't mind them shooting it to stop a car in front of YOUR house? Only as much as I would mind shooting at anyone with anything else in front of my house. Its all about your background, and what the ammo is made out of. It would depend on what 30mm TP and its riccochet potential was, but they are fireing near vertically into the ground, riccochets are going to be limited for anything. I don't know what TP is made outof for sure, though it wount explode, which rules out usng the regular HEDP. .50 cal I know would work. The Rafouss round would explode when it hit the pavement, but it produces very little in the way of fragmentation, its a AMR round that depends on exploding INSIDE something to do damage because of its small size. Just one would ruin a car, or even a semi-trucks engine. They need to go out to Ft. Hood and test this out to determine the actual riccochet/miss hazard. Even if you cant use it in a residential neighborhood, you could still use it on freeways. |
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Quoted: Its all about your background, and what the ammo is made out of. It would depend on what 30mm TP and its riccochet potential was, but they are fireing near vertically into the ground, riccochets are going to be limited for anything. I don't know what TP is made outof for sure, though it wount explode, which rules out usng the regular HEDP. .50 cal I know would work. The Rafouss round would explode when it hit the pavement, but it produces very little in the way of fragmentation, its a AMR round that depends on exploding INSIDE something to do damage because of its small size. Just one would ruin a car, or even a semi-trucks engine. They need to go out to Ft. Hood and test this out to determine the actual riccochet/miss hazard. Even if you cant use it in a residential neighborhood, you could still use it on freeways. If you listen to the audio, you'll find that the gunner fired the first burst in the wrong setting. The initial burst lands nowhere near the bad guys in his sights. He and the pilot realize the problem. The gunner says "f**k!" and resets to auto-range. I ask you: where did the initial burst strike? and how would your neighbors feel about that? |
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Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Considering how well that gun shoots- and technicly its considered a AREA fire suppression weapon if you ask the Army- why cant we use a gun turret like that to stop high speed car chases? If 30mm is too much, put a .50cal in the same kind of mount. Although I bet the 30mm TP ammo would be destructive enough for LE use. Put something like that on a MDD NOTAR heilo- no one would know what happened, or where it was coming from. Are you serious?! You actually believe that would be a great idea? I guess you wouldn't mind them shooting it to stop a car in front of YOUR house? Only as much as I would mind shooting at anyone with anything else in front of my house. Its all about your background, and what the ammo is made out of. It would depend on what 30mm TP and its riccochet potential was, but they are fireing near vertically into the ground, riccochets are going to be limited for anything. I don't know what TP is made outof for sure, though it wount explode, which rules out usng the regular HEDP. .50 cal I know would work. The Rafouss round would explode when it hit the pavement, but it produces very little in the way of fragmentation, its a AMR round that depends on exploding INSIDE something to do damage because of its small size. Just one would ruin a car, or even a semi-trucks engine. They need to go out to Ft. Hood and test this out to determine the actual riccochet/miss hazard. Even if you cant use it in a residential neighborhood, you could still use it on freeways. I guess you are right. Heck, if the local Sherrif would've had a couple of those at Waco back in '93, it would have been a lot easier to get those folks to come out of that church... |
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I guess you are right. Heck, if the local Sherrif would've had a couple of those at Waco back in '93, it would have been a lot easier to get those folks to come out of that church. A local sheriff would never ask someone to get out of a church, remember that. Also, its not logical to deny someone the best available tools to do a job just on the off chance that they MIGHT use them for criminal purposes. That is the concept of Sarah Brady and the other gun grabbers who don't want people to have decent weapons, who think people shouldn't be allowed to carry guns on the street "cause they might shoot someone over a parking space". Your no different from the likes of them, and you are just as selective as she is. |
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Quoted: what good is posse commitatus if the police have the same weapons as the army? You need to ask the idiots who wrote the bill. Fact is law enforcement has always had access to the same weapons as the army. The National Guard has the same weapons as the army, other police departments have always been able to buy military hard ware if they could get the funding. There is no law, and never has been, prohibiting LE from buying whatever they want, only econmics. If it works at bringing high speed car chases to a end, or stopping drug smugglers at the boarder or on the ocean, with no collateral damage, why not? |
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Quoted: Quoted: what good is posse commitatus if the police have the same weapons as the army? You need to ask the idiots who wrote the bill. Fact is law enforcement has always had access to the same weapons as the army. The National Guard has the same weapons as the army, other police departments have always been able to buy military hard ware if they could get the funding. There is no law, and never has been, prohibiting LE from buying whatever they want, only econmics. If it works at bringing high speed car chases to a end, or stopping drug smugglers at the boarder or on the ocean, with no collateral damage, why not? No collateral? What video were you watching? Sure, lets give the death penalty for anyone running from the police. Shit, lets mount them on telephone poles and we can wack jay-walkers and hookers. No fuss, just a little mess. All cops should carry M240s just to be sure. Yeah, I like that future. |
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No collateral? What video were you watching? Who or what got killed but the smugglers and the vheicles they were using? At that was using real HE ammo. No surrounding houses (if any, there were none in the frame) were hit, no surrounding pedestrieans, if any, were hit. And this was using HE!. If they were using non-explosive fragnible ammunition there would be even less chance. If they were using .50 cal instead of 30mm there would be less chance still. Sure, lets give the death penalty for anyone running from the police I know some people are really in love with their cars, but I seriously doubt any person would actually die from having the engine bay of their car ventillated. And if they were one of the ones to take pot shots at the pursuing officers, then they would be legally justified in ventillaing the cabin as well as the engine of said vheicle. |
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Quoted: I guess you are right. Heck, if the local Sherrif would've had a couple of those at Waco back in '93, it would have been a lot easier to get those folks to come out of that church. A local sheriff would never ask someone to get out of a church, remember that. Also, its not logical to deny someone the best available tools to do a job just on the off chance that they MIGHT use them for criminal purposes. That is the concept of Sarah Brady and the other gun grabbers who don't want people to have decent weapons, who think people shouldn't be allowed to carry guns on the street "cause they might shoot someone over a parking space". Your no different from the likes of them, and you are just as selective as she is. Whoa!! Comparing me to Sara Brady? Looks like you need to take your meds. I'm all for having the right tool for the job. But a 30mm chain gun is not the right tool to stop a high speed car chase. And before you go there, YES, I believe EVERY citizen should be able to own one. I just don't think we should shoot them on the freeway or residential areas. |
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Quoted: why cant we use a gun turret like that to stop high speed car chases? The Israelis do this and fire hellfire missiles! They work very well from what I see on the news. I spoke with a former apache pilot and he said that it's the baddest bird in the air below 10000 feet. I believe it. I wouldn't mind police doing some testing and if its not more dangerous than the chases themselves implementing it. I think there is some kind of FAA policy or law prohibiting fire a gun from an aircraft. I'm not sure if it applies to police. FWIW, my depts SWAT team trains with doing an air assault on ships and one of the things involved is to have another one of our dept helos with a couple of snipers onboard flying overhead. |
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But a 30mm chain gun is not the right tool to stop a high speed car chase I couldn't say that untill I have seen what the effects of 30mm TP are on cars and pavement. Or 20mm TP from the old 20mm 3 barrel. Or .50cal from a M3 or a GECAL. Whichever has the best combination of availability, accuracy, and least amount of collateral damage. Like I said, they should go run some trials and see what the effects are and what the dangers are on the urban training ranges they have at Fort Hood or Twenty-nine Palms. |
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The Israelis do this and fire hellfire missiles! They work very well from what I see on the news. HE would do too much damage-remember that there are NO innocent people in Palistine. But I have been sitting here since this thread started wondering if it would be possible to build a inexpensive guided missile with a inert warhead, concrete or mild steel, that would smash a unarmored car and disable it. Ultimately now a laser would be the best weapon. The USAF plans to have lasers fielded by 2010 that could do this job. However, they will probably too expensive for anyone else to use for another couple DECADES after that. |
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Quoted: But a 30mm chain gun is not the right tool to stop a high speed car chase I couldn't say that untill I have seen what the effects of 30mm TP are on cars and pavement. Or 20mm TP from the old 20mm 3 barrel. Or .50cal from a M3 or a GECAL. Whichever has the best combination of availability, accuracy, and least amount of collateral damage. Like I said, they should go run some trials and see what the effects are and what the dangers are on the urban training ranges they have at Fort Hood or Twenty-nine Palms. How many people a year are killed or injured due to high speed car chases in the US? If a car is moving at 120 MPH on the 405 and is hit with (take your choice, 30mm chain gun, 20 mm chain gun, .50 cal, .30 cal, or a 100 lb inert projectile moving at mach 2, how far will it continue to travel and remain under ANYONES control? "Sorry about your wife and son Mr. Peacher. Our tests at 29 Palms and Fort Hood clearly demonstrated the effeciveness of using 30mm chain guns on helicopter in order to stop a high speed car chase. Unfortunately, the suspects vehicle crossed the median after it was shot and collided head on with your wife's car. But the officers went home safe." |
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Quoted: What are the circumstances surrounding that video? Where was it taken, and who's the enemy? Afghanistan? Iraq? People just kind of fall apart when hit with stuff like that, don't they? CJ [b]Background Story:[/b] Page 1: [url]abcnews.go.com/sections/WNT/US/apache_video_040109-1.html[/url] Page 2: [url]abcnews.go.com/sections/WNT/US/apache_video_040109-2.html[/url] The ABC version of the video is supposed to be a little bit longer. Army officials acknowledged that the 30 mm cannons used by the Apache gunners were far bigger than what was needed to kill the men, but said it is the smallest weapon the Apaches have |
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Quoted: Quoted: But a 30mm chain gun is not the right tool to stop a high speed car chase I couldn't say that untill I have seen what the effects of 30mm TP are on cars and pavement. Or 20mm TP from the old 20mm 3 barrel. Or .50cal from a M3 or a GECAL. Whichever has the best combination of availability, accuracy, and least amount of collateral damage. Like I said, they should go run some trials and see what the effects are and what the dangers are on the urban training ranges they have at Fort Hood or Twenty-nine Palms. How many people a year are killed or injured due to high speed car chases in the US? If a car is moving at 120 MPH on the 405 and is hit with (take your choice, 30mm chain gun, 20 mm chain gun, .50 cal, .30 cal, or a 100 lb inert projectile moving at mach 2, how far will it continue to travel and remain under ANYONES control? "Sorry about your wife and son Mr. Peacher. Our tests at 29 Palms and Fort Hood clearly demonstrated the effeciveness of using 30mm chain guns on helicopter in order to stop a high speed car chase. Unfortunately, the suspects vehicle crossed the median after it was shot and collided head on with your wife's car. But the officers went home safe." That is a situation that exists only in your fantasy. Its like saying you cant fire guns on a airplane because you'll all be sucked out the hole. The car cannot cross the median-there these little things called BARRIERS in the way. It cannot run into anything in front of them-it will slow down after its hit and everything in front of them will pull away. And again BACKGROUND BACKGROUND BACKGROUND. There is no more danger in this than in allowing police officers to shoot at someone with their handgun. The same danger of them missing and hitting and killing a innocent, or the wounded suspect killing someone. If you are in streatch of road with heavy traffic you don't shoot anymore than you would shoot around houses. Some of you really need to get over your pathological fear of the police. |
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Quoted: That is a situation that exists only in your fantasy. Its like saying you cant fire guns on a airplane because you'll all be sucked out the hole. When did I say that? The car cannot cross the median-there these little things called BARRIERS in the way. The barriers are not installed EVERYWERE. It cannot run into anything in front of them-it will slow down after its hit and everything in front of them will pull away. I don't suppose one of your magical stop a semi-truck in its tracks, but be not able to hurt anything else rounds could EVER malfunction, not work as designed, and then skip into the vehicles ahead?? And again BACKGROUND BACKGROUND BACKGROUND. There is no more danger in this than in allowing police officers to shoot at someone with their handgun. The same danger of them missing and hitting and killing a innocent, or the wounded suspect killing someone. Have YOU ever been down range from a little .50 BMG? If you are in streatch of road with heavy traffic you don't shoot anymore than you would shoot around houses. But it is A-OK to go ahead and grease 'em when they are on the open road with no one else around for miles? If that is the case, then who are you trying to protect from the dangers of a high speed chase? Some of you really need to get over your pathological fear of the police. It's not the local cops that scare me. But a bureaucrat that thinks the way you do...Now THAT scares the shit out of me. |
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[b] [But I have been sitting here since this thread started wondering if it would be possible to build a inexpensive guided missile with a inert warhead, concrete or mild steel, that would smash a unarmored car and disable it.][/b] [red]I've seen video of Israelis firing hellfire missiles at a house in the west bank. Every once in a while they get bad missiles that just kind of floats away from the target and explode some where else. Pilots just say bad missile and fire another at the target. I don't believe you would want that stray missile hitting your house would you?[/red] [b][If a car is moving at 120 MPH on the 405 and is hit with (take your choice, 30mm chain gun, 20 mm chain gun, .50 cal, .30 cal, or a 100 lb inert projectile moving at mach 2, how far will it continue to travel and remain under ANYONES control? "Sorry about your wife and son Mr. Peacher. Our tests at 29 Palms and Fort Hood clearly demonstrated the effectiveness of using 30mm chain guns on helicopter in order to stop a high speed car chase. Unfortunately, the suspects vehicle crossed the median after it was shot and collided head on with your wife's car. But the officers went home safe."][/b] [red]Good point[/red] |
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Quoted: OK, dumb computer question for the week? How do you save a video like this to your harddrive. Usually when I try to do it, it saves the URL (I guess) 'cause I go back a week later to try to play it and it doesn't play. All help appreciated. Thanks, Merlin if your using IE.. right click link.. from the meneu select "save as" if thath doesnt send me your email in an IM and I can email it to you.. |
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The idea of shooting a fleeing car from the air is a valid one. San Bernadino SD has done it and trains specific officers to shoot air-ground with the MP5 and M4. You'll notice Gunsite, or some other big name training place, has a course for the same thing. It works, it's cheap and it works better than anything I can think of. A man with a gun is in the end the best overall weapon system. It doesn't matter if he's in the air, or on the ground. As a former Army Aviator I can tell you that using an aircraft mounted system is a bad idea. The rounds go EVERYWHERE! It's not like you read on the internet and everything works perfectly all the time. In fact it never can because it's mechanical. Just look at the footage. The beaten zone (the area where the projectiles actually hit) of the burst is the size of the truck. If it were a car that would mean rounds going in the engine compatment, passenger compartment, trunk, and a few around the car in the ground. It doesn't matter 30mm, 20mm, 50cal, 7.62mm, HE, frangible, magic bullet or what. You can see where the rounds impact, and that tells me all I need to know about using that to stop a chase and expecting anyone to come out alive. Also remember that's as accurate as you can get. The target is stationary, the aircraft is stationary, the gunner has all the time in the world to set-up the shot. Start moving and the beaten zone gets spread out in the direction of gun travel. That's physics, and there's nothing you can do about that. The Army call sit an AREA FIRE weapon because that's EXACTLY what it is and EXACLTLY what's demonstrated in the vid. If you think that video is a representation of a point fire weapon, you need to sepnd more time at the range. Background is important, as you say, so consider the backgroudn of the system. The Army doesn't care if it hits only a percentage of rounds. As long as there's a high enough percentage to get a kill. Police are a different matter. No I don't have a phobia with police. In fact I think it's a damn good idea that someone's training to shoot from an aircraft. I can think of several scenarios that it would be needed, not just stopping a car chase. But again, the best weapon for the job is a police officer with his finger on the trigger of a relatively standard longarm. It's already been proven to work, it's already fielded and trained, it doesn't cost the millions of dollars for a weapons system that won't even come close to doing the job in real life. Generally speaking the simplist solution is the best. That solution is already out there and in use. Your solution has yet to find a problem that it needs. Ross |
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if your using IE.. right click link.. from the meneu select "save as" if thath doesnt send me your email in an IM and I can email it to you.. Cluster, thanks, it works! Potential Thread Hijack Question: About 2-3 months ago, I believe on this board, there was a cool video out. As I recall, it showed the US Marines killing various things and people to the tune of a heavy rock song. I don't know the name of the song, but every time the Marines killed a building, the explosion was timed with the songs "Woooh!". It did it several times especially near the end. Who has a link to this video so I can download per Cluster's directions above? Thanks, Merlin OK, back to your regularly scheduled thread.... Merlin |
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Quoted: Considering how well that gun shoots- and technicly its considered a AREA fire suppression weapon if you ask the Army- why cant we use a gun turret like that to stop high speed car chases? If 30mm is too much, put a .50cal in the same kind of mount. Although I bet the 30mm TP ammo would be destructive enough for LE use. Put something like that on a MDD NOTAR heilo- no one would know what happened, or where it was coming from. That's just brilliant bumpkin! Good thing you don't make policy. 50 BMG straffing to stop a car chase[%|] Maybe an AGM-84 to curb pot smokers on cruise ships![rolleyes] |
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Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: But a 30mm chain gun is not the right tool to stop a high speed car chase I couldn't say that untill I have seen what the effects of 30mm TP are on cars and pavement. Or 20mm TP from the old 20mm 3 barrel. Or .50cal from a M3 or a GECAL. Whichever has the best combination of availability, accuracy, and least amount of collateral damage. Like I said, they should go run some trials and see what the effects are and what the dangers are on the urban training ranges they have at Fort Hood or Twenty-nine Palms. How many people a year are killed or injured due to high speed car chases in the US? If a car is moving at 120 MPH on the 405 and is hit with (take your choice, 30mm chain gun, 20 mm chain gun, .50 cal, .30 cal, or a 100 lb inert projectile moving at mach 2, how far will it continue to travel and remain under ANYONES control? "Sorry about your wife and son Mr. Peacher. Our tests at 29 Palms and Fort Hood clearly demonstrated the effeciveness of using 30mm chain guns on helicopter in order to stop a high speed car chase. Unfortunately, the suspects vehicle crossed the median after it was shot and collided head on with your wife's car. But the officers went home safe." That is a situation that exists only in your fantasy. Its like saying you cant fire guns on a airplane because you'll all be sucked out the hole. The car cannot cross the median-there these little things called BARRIERS in the way. It cannot run into anything in front of them-it will slow down after its hit and everything in front of them will pull away. And again BACKGROUND BACKGROUND BACKGROUND. There is no more danger in this than in allowing police officers to shoot at someone with their handgun. The same danger of them missing and hitting and killing a innocent, or the wounded suspect killing someone. If you are in streatch of road with heavy traffic you don't shoot anymore than you would shoot around houses. Some of you really need to get over your pathological fear of the police. Your defense of your opinion sounds like it was put together by a teenager. As insulting as that is I mean to demonstrate that it sounds desperate. There is no good reason to strafe a fleeing car. You gotta understand the police are law enforcement, notta fucking bunch of executioners in the SS. Strafe a car with a machine gun because someone is fleeing. Your fucking nuts dude. Oh, and I'm against any militarization of the CIVILIAN police forces and no I'm not a civilian. I'm military. So there! |
| OT: My next door neighbor used to be in the US Army, he was in Nicaragua, and they encountered a person in the the night holding an AK; he sought and received permission to open fire. The next day, the found the body, it was a little old carrying a stick; but according to him, thru his night vision goggles, it looked liked a rifle. |