Posted: 4/25/2003 12:57:13 PM EDT
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Does anyone know of any new legislation preventing the importation of semi auotmatic "assault rifles" for civilian sale with the proper amount of U.S. made parts? Or recent rulings/interpretations by the ATF? I said recent, I am aware of the 1989 import legislation. |
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The most recent news I have heard of is the still unclear law that you can only use circa 2002-2003? imported receivers(FAL-Imbel)as replacement parts for a broken receiver. You cannot build a new rifle with them. From my understanding this does not effect U.S. made receivers(DSA, Entreprise). Everyone still seems confused on this issue though (including dealers) from what I have read. This is Entreprises wording from their website: "WARNING Imported Replacement (also currently referred to as Post Ban) receivers cannot be built as they were imported under the strict REPLACEMENT COMPONENT ONLY directive and as such is restricted to only replacement to a documented damaged/destroyed receiver" |
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Quoted: Same thing with barrels. Any of the barrels imported with any of the recent kits (or by themselves) are only legal to be used as replacement parts. You cannot legally build a new gun using them. -Troy One imports a kit in which the upper receiver is according to the 1994 Brady ban but is built on a U.S. receiver making it a U.S. built rifle the part number thing still holds true? So you need to replace the barrel also? |
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Acording to the law, "it shall be unlawful to import any frame, receiver, or barrel of such firearm which would be prohibited if assembled;[.]" (USC 925(d)3) Presumably, this could mean the lower AS WELL AS upper recievers, as well as the barrel. I was going to buy a cheap gun, such as an AK, even thought about maybe building a FAL. For the price of the US receivers and barrels, though, I decided to go ahead and get an AR... |
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FIRST, let me say this: I am NOT endorsing using a R/R receiver to build any weapon, just presenting what I have understood/learned from my quest in this scenario. Get ready for the Gymnastics.. because HERE IT COMES! I have had LOTS of converse and study about this subject. As some of you MAY know, I have successfully (in fact, been "the first" in SEVERAL cases, even) built a lot of really cool post ban compliant guns.. ALL COMPLETELY LEGAL. Some are pictured on my site: [url]http://alpinetek.netfirms.com/guns/[/url] When beginning each type of these guns, I was met with LOTS of opposition telling me I was crazy, it could not be legally done, etc.. but as some of you may know, every project has (later) been seen as "kosher", and "common", even. This came from talking with people "in the know" studying and learning what IS legal and what is NOT legal to do. NOW... when THIS sceanrio arose, it REALLY piqued my interest, and I IMMEDIATELY began collecting as much info and talking with as many people as possible about the "details" of the subject matter. I have been studying THIS situation REALLY HARD and THIS is what I have "learned" so far: The importation laws/regs and permits apply to the IMPORTERS. THAT is why they are called IMPORTATION laws/regs and permits. ONCE imported and sold, the importer cannot be held accountable for what the buyer (or a "second generational buyer", etc..) does with the item. For example: It is NOT illegal for a gun importer/dealer to sell you a "legally ownable" firearm. If you bought any "legal" rifle from a dealer/importer and later killed a room full of people, the gun was used illegally! Is the dealer/importer liable, as long as he followed all the laws required to make a legal transfer to you? Of course not. NOW... I submit THIS scenario (not to confuse, but to expound).. The original (legal) buyer sells it to someone else at some point.. it is NOT ILLEGAL for the original buyer to sell this to someone else... remember.. this is NOT an NFA item, and it was LEGALLY IMPORTED by the importer, and is legally ownable by civilians. REMEMBER THIS. Ok.. now.. let's address the "NOW THAT IT IS LEGALLY IMPORTED" scenario. If the importer/dealer imported/sold the item for the purpose of repair/replacement, then HE DID NOT violate any laws, and LEGALLY TRANSFERRED OWNERSHIP. The receiver is still transferred (as is the norm) as the registered part of a firearm (ie, the firearm itself)... LEGALLY! NOW.. the BUYER is NOT held accountable by a law which applies to the IMPORTER, just as it is not the buyers responsibility that ANY DEALER LEGALLY IMPORTS/BUYS/SELLS a firearm. OK... THAT "takes care" of IMPORTATION.. AND we have ALREADY established this has been LEGALLY IMPORTED! ONCE legally imported, the receiver, in the US, is THEN considered a firearm (as stated above) and all laws governing a firearms POSSESION NOW are applicable. THIS is where the the "gymanstics" begin! Ok, the receiver (once imported into the US) is NOW a FIREARM! The following is VERY IMPORTANT SINCE IT DEALS WITH CIVILIAN POSSESSION of a firearm: The laws, which apply to CIVILIAN possession of a semit auto, mag fed, firearm, generally govern TWO important issues: "evil features", and the configuration of the weapon.. A receiver, by itself, has no "evil features", and the "configuration" is near non-existant (unless it is a FA receiver, of course.. then NFA rules apply.. but we are NOT discussing NFA items). Ever seen a civvie carrying around a postban compliant AR with a "LE/Gov ONLY" marked receiver? I HAVE.. LOTs of them, in fact... SAME type scenario. ALL of them are LEGALLY owned, also. A LEO CAN possess "evil features", on a weapon built onto a "LE ONLY" (read: postban) receiver, but a civvie CANNOT. However, a civvie CAN posses the receiver ALONE, since NO "evil features" exist on the "gun". Also, the "importability" of the gun (relative to civilian ownership) ALSO deals with the CONFIGURATION of the weapon and the number of IMPORTED parts that make up the weapon. NO MORE THAN TEN IMPORTED PARTS ARE ALLOWED FOR POST BAN GUNS. The receiver counts as ONE PART (ONE is LESS than TEN in most countries.. EVEN THE US.. in spite of our current educational situation)! Now.... I submit THIS scenario (again, NOT to confuse, but to expound): A LEO buys a "LE only" weapon. He later needs/wants to sell the gun.. for WHATEVER reason.. maybe he quits, is fired, no longer WANTS the gun, or simply needs money. He can sell the weapon (as is) to a dealer, or another LEO. OR .. he CAN REMOVE the "evil features" and sell the gun to a civvie (not withstanding local/state laws governing that the civvie can lawfully posses that weapon in the "non-evil" configuration, of course). THIS is how so many of the "LE only" guns make it into the civvie market. More points to remember... the 89 EO forbade the IMPORTATION, but NOT the POSSESSION, of "AWs". This was a technicality, really, since the IMPORTATION was stopped, but allowed for the existance of LEGAL, but LABELLED "gray market" guns. There was lots of confusion due to this. This was "cleared up" in the 94 ban (with a 10 year sunset) when POSSESSION was also addressed. Now.. POSSESION is based on the number of IMPORTED parts used in the build, AND the CONFIGURATION ("evil feature" stuff) of the weapon. According to the laws/regs: If YOU ARE the IMPORTER of the R/R receiver, you are in violation of the permit if YOU build ANY TYPE GUN (preban OR postban.. importable or NON-importable) on these receivers. If you ARE the IMPORTER, you may ONLY SELL the receiver with the intent it be used for the purpose of repair/replacement. So.. According to the laws/regs, the IMPORTER is forbidden from assembling a NEW rifle from these parts. SO.. If ANYONE ELSE (besides the IMPORTER) were to use this part in a build, like ANY new build, he MUST comply with all applicable (local/fed)laws governing HIS/HER particular right to assemble a firearm. Therfore, the ONLY WAY ANYONE could build, on one of these receivers, a rifle with PRE-BAN features is to CAREFULLY DOCUMENT the DESTRUCTION of the PREBAN RECEIVER that was being REPLACED, or let your dealer/smith/ffl handle the paperwork. Otherwise, as long as no "evil features" exist (AND you are NOT the IMPORTER/DEALER of the receiver) and enough domestic parts are used to PREVENT a "non-importable" configuration, then there are NO OTHER RESTRICTIONS on YOU! If you are NOT the IMPORTER and YOU DO build on ONE of these LEGALLY IMPORTED receivers, make damn sure it is compliant with the laws that apply to you. AGAIN: I am NOT endorsing using a R/R receiver to build any weapon, just presenting what I have understood/learned from my quest in this scenario. |
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Quoted: Acording to the law, "it shall be unlawful to import any frame, receiver, or barrel of such firearm which would be prohibited if assembled;[.]" (USC 925(d)3) This IS CORRECT.. BUT REMEMBER [b]WHY[/b] IT WOULD BE PROHIBITED! If enough [b]US PARTS ARE USED[/b], it is NOT PROHIBITED. The possesion of a non-importable firearm is [b]WHAT[/b] is prohibited. THAT is why I can LEGALLY OWN THIS: [img]http://alpinetek.netfirms.com/guns/SL8/profile4tn.jpg[/img] Because enough [b]US PARTS[/b] are in the configuration to [b]PREVENT IT FROM BEING PROHIBITED.[/b] Don't forget that these RESTRICTIONS apply to the IMPORTER! "WE" have our OWN restrictions.. follow THEM, and let the IMPORTERS follow THEIRS! |
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Quoted: Quoted: Acording to the law, "it shall be unlawful to import any frame, receiver, or barrel of such firearm which would be prohibited if assembled;[.]" (USC 925(d)3) This IS CORRECT.. BUT REMEMBER [b]WHY[/b] IT WOULD BE PROHIBITED! If enough [b]US PARTS ARE USED[/b], it is NOT PROHIBITED. The possesion of a non-importable firearm is [b]WHAT[/b] is prohibited. THAT is why I can LEGALLY OWN THIS: [url]http://alpinetek.netfirms.com/guns/SL8/profile4tn.jpg[/url] Because enough [b]US PARTS[/b] are in the configuration to [b]PREVENT IT FROM BEING PROHIBITED.[/b] This is something im after, if you build a U.S. made rifle which is in accordance with post ban rules could you then for example use an original barrel in a receiver if you can get the parts count match otherwise? |
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yes. the most important thing is to keep the weapon within the acceptable number of parts that are counted. As long as the parts count (this applies ONLY to the parts that are ACTUALLY in the "count", now) is ten or less, it doesn't matter which parts, it is. THIS link on my site might help you: [url]http://alpinetek.netfirms.com/guns/SL8/SWinfo.html[/url] |
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Again, just like it reads: These receivers cannot be built into NON SPORTING FIREARMS. As long as you do NOT build a NON-SPORTING FIREARM, then you are completely LEGAL, JUST like the FMP based HK91 type and other type CLONES. Keep the parts count compliant with all laws. Simply keep the configuration of the gun you build compliant with all laws. If YOU are NOT an importer, then DON'T worry about the restrictions placed on the IMPORTERS. Also, do NOt "Conspire" with importers to "skirt" regs.. that is only asking for trouble. Keep it legit. YOU should "worry about" following the restrictions that are applicable to YOU. DO NOT build an illegal gun and NO ONE has to "worry". Follow the laws, or face serious consequences. Another issue is also dealth with in that flyer.. ("FAIR"). The current laws are discirminatory, since US made replicas of these parts are NOT restricted, making this an unfair trade practice. I support FAIR and hope it is successful in removing this discrminatory situation. |
| Keith,great post,best damn info on the subject that I have seen posted on the net anywhere and my hat off to you sir! This should clear it up for anyone. Maybe you could post this on the FALfiles some of them over there make this mole hill into Mt.Everest. Just ordered a Imbel upper today myself and I aint' worried because mine will be compliant to current regs. Thank You again for your post. |
| The BATF web site claims that any rifle capable of accepting a "high capacity ammunition feeding device" is considered NOT sporting, and thus illegal for import. Doesn't this mean that it would be illegal to import any receiver or barrel for a gun that could accept a high cap mag? Although, I guess it could be imported for replacement, then disassembled and sold and made into a new gun. I believe that's called an "innocent diversion." |
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I haven't seen any barrels or receivers that are capable of accepting detachable magazines without being assembled into a completed weapon. Exactly HOW do YOU make a barrel accept a Magazine? How do YOU get a RECEIVER ALONE to hold a detachable magazine? What do you need "all those other parts" for if a barrel consitutes a completed rifle? Why even need a magazine, if THAT is the case? :) Now.. in the COMPLETED WEAPON, If enough US parts are used in the assembly, then the completed weapon (which IS capable of accepting a large capacity ammunition feeding device) is NOT considered an IMPORTED weapon, and therefore IS a SPORTING WEAPON (JUST like an AR15)! |
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Quoted: I haven't seen any barrels or receivers that are capable of accepting detachable magazines without being assembled into a completed weapon. Exactly HOW do YOU make a barrel accept a Magazine? How do YOU get a RECEIVER ALONE to hold a detachable magazine? What do you need "all those other parts" for if a barrel consitutes a completed rifle? Why even need a magazine, if THAT is the case? :) Now.. in the COMPLETED WEAPON, If enough US parts are used in the assembly, then the completed weapon (which IS capable of accepting a large capacity ammunition feeding device) is NOT considered an IMPORTED weapon, and therefore IS a SPORTING WEAPON (JUST like an AR15)! More correctly: If it is not an imported weapon, the 'sporting purposes' clause does not apply. US-made guns (except shotguns with bores larger than .5 in) can be as non-sporting as possible. This is why US-made AR-15s are legally available, but the Norinco (Chinese) AR-15 is not. So if the importer imports recievers for 'replacement purpose only', and you buy one, you can build any kind of gun you want, so long as there is no arrangement/conspiracy between you and the importer to construct non-sporting imported guns. If the importer does not know that you won't use the parts as replacements, THEY are in the clear. If the gun you build has no more than 10 imported parts, it is a 'US made' gun, and YOU are in the clear (As long as you comply with the 94 AWB).... That's it... |
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Okay...we all know that assembling a "non-sporting" firearm from imported parts is illegal. It's only legal if you incorporate several US made parts. With that in mind, how can the following quote be accurate: Second, ATF is concerned about the innocent diversion of such parts which are used to assemble non-sporting firearms. Although not criminal in nature, if done in significant numbers, such diversion defeats the purpose of the ATF policy. How is it possible to use those parts to assemble a "non-sporting" firearm and have it not be criminal, assuming that the term "non-sporting" means "made from imported parts?" Sorry if I'm just "not getting it." |
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One can only GUESS when it comes to statements like this, as this is commentary, not an actual reg, law or ruling. I prefer to not even read editorial type comments like this, but simply stick to the actual regs themselves. The commentor says "Not criminal [b]in nature[/b]". In other words, not being built with criminal INTENT. I think he is giving builders the "benefit of the doubt" here. He could have also said "built in ignorance" and meant almost the same thing, just been a bit "harsher". But that is just my guess. |