[ARCHIVED THREAD] - Isosceles Or Weaver...? (Page 1 of 2)
Posted: 6/16/2006 10:50:22 PM EDT
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What is your preferred shooting position? I always end up in something close to a modded Weaver stance. This is when I'm not prone under the kitchen table. |
store opens at 10am it takes me 2 minutes to walk there therefore i get up a 9:50 it not like i has to brush my hair 
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Never heard of it. I have been a LEO firearms instructor for 20 years and it is a new term to me. I have taught at the national academy. If the arm position is the same, we would still call it Isosceles, without regard of body upright or crouched. There are basically two terms used there. Weaver, bent support arm, body in a slightly turned strong side back in a "field interview" stance. Isosceles, both arms straight, body square to the threat. There is very little said about the crouch unless a student goes into a deep crouch (which would make shooting and moving awkward). Weaver and modified weaver. True Weaver is exactly how the old original 1960s IPSC shooter Jack Weaver presented his weapon (back when Jeff Cooper and that bunch started it all). Modified Weaver is a slight variation of his stance. It is all arm positioning in calling Weaver, modified Weaver or Isosceles. The crouch is more of a preferred body position, not really a considered a "modification" of the stance. At least in that group. Please do not consider this as arguing or anything negative. It is just that in all my time dealing with professional instructors I had never heard of a modified Isosceles stance. And... the thought would be when hearing this, the modification would have something to do with the arm positioning. My philosophy has always been. I teach both Weaver & Isosceles and indicate the positive & negative sides of both, and let the student gravitate to the one that works best for them. If I have a student that has already picked one, and they shoot well. I take a "If it ain't broke, don't fix it! attitude. Thanks for the explanation and please accept what I offer as my view of the stances. I do not intend to challenge the explanation, and I now know what some may refer to as a "modified Isosceles" stance. Thanks! I do a "DasRonin" shooting stance.  Most would refer to it as a Modified Weaver.
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That's right, it is civie only....  Just kidding.Modified Weaver here. |
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I change it up all the time, but I guess I use Isosceles a little bit better than have the time. When I shoot my S&W 460 or any other big bore it is always Isosceles. Shooting my G17 and my 1911 I use both. I like to change it up sometimes. A weaver and a modified weaver is more condusive when shooting from a covered position around a corner. If I have a vest on I shoot Isosceles because you are utilizing the most protection from the armor that way. |
Looks like an attempt at an isosceles, except the feet need to be more squared with the shoulders. |
Now you know why I come here to spy! I just retired, so I am now a "civilian". I had to turn in my jack boots my last day on the job in November of 2005. I just this month entered the "corporate world". |
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What about the lower body position? Weaver was taught to me as part of getting into a boxers fighting stance. It's well set up for both giving and receiving blows, even when on the move. It can also be easily used in a normal standing position. Isosceles was taught to me and others I know as a forward leaning tippy toe stance normally only seen at the ballet and in certain circus performers. Not only was it unstable for us, it brought on days of pain killers for one person with an old neck injury as well as two with old back injuries. |
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Surgical Speed Shooting by Andy Stanford. A "Must Read" on this subject. |
Weaver... lower body in "field interview" stance (gun side angled away from the "interviewee), knees slightly bent, strong foot back, feet about shoulder distance apart. Field interview was taught to keep the gun side back from the one being interviewed in the field. If the weapon was needed, it transitions into a Weaver without need to reposition feet/body. Isosceles... lower body square to the target, knees slightly bent, feet about shoulder width apart, balance slightly forward. If using a field interview stance, when the weapon is needed the feet and body must move to assume an isosceles shooting position. |
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I prefer mod-iso but once the lead is flying and things get dymanic all bets are off and no one will be shooting in any type of perfect grip or stance. IMHO, how you grip your pistol(Weaver or Iso) doesn't really have to correlate to what your legs and feet are doing. You will most likely be in motion and you will automatically adjust how you stand and place your feet for the best balance in the environment you are in. As long as you keep a good base and don't cross your feet you'll be okay. I've seen both Weaver and Iso shooters use similar stances bladed or squared to the target depending on the situation. See the video linked below for a good run down on the Mod-Iso grip. www.youtube.com/watch?v=-Yohikhl9_c&search=Jarret%20pistol |
Modified Isosceles probably isn't an "official" stance in a syllabus. Perhaps it is better as a descriptive term. I mentioned it only because I see people use it and was recognizing the distinction. The specific characteristics (as they may be used to define the difference) are more upright and erect (rather than in a classical low horse) and sometimes with one foot slightly forward. |
Your evaluation of a Weaver is more or less the same as mine. But you are apparantly missing one application of the Isosceles and that is if you get hit you generally go down prone still capable of shooting. |
Modified weaver also has a lot more in common with long arm/carbine technique. And it works better shooting while moving and other "real world" shooting applications. Its certainly worthwhile to know isoceles as well, I shoot though the range of positions from the Ayoob "star" technique for engaging off axis targets. |
The same can be said for mod-iso, the squared to the target CQB carbine grip/stance many of us use have a lot in common with shooting on the move in the mod-iso stance. |
I've never seen isosceles taught that way. I was taught to stand in a squared off position, generally with the support foot slightly forward and the other foot slightly. It is an easy postion to move from. I have not seen anyone recommend weaver in quite some time. Blackwater has you standing in the position for a carbine or pistol. I agree with the recommendation about Andy Stamford's book. |