Posted: 3/15/2012 7:34:16 AM EDT
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Let me begin by admitting what many of you already know if you have been around a while. I admit to not being a believer.
I have always had a very strong desire to not misrepresent myself, so I guess even as I inquire about this topic I felt I needed to make that clear. Anyway .... I do want to understand. Is Jesus Christ God? More specifically, is it accurate to say that Jesus Christ is God presented in human form? Is it that God and Jesus are not two separate entities, rather the same thing in different forms? Not ever being educated regarding this, I always thought of it as Father and Son, two separate and distinct entities. A little reading I have been doing (not the Bible .... it's presented as a 'biography' of Jesus), I don't think this is right. |
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Here's some of St. John ch.1
John 1 (ESV) The Word Became Flesh 1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was in the beginning with God. 3 All things were made through him, and without him was not any thing made that was made. 4 In him was life, and the life was the light of men. 5 The light shines in the darkness, and the darkness has not overcome it. 6 There was a man sent from God, whose name was John. 7 He came as a witness, to bear witness about the light, that all might believe through him. 8 He was not the light, but came to bear witness about the light. 9 The true light, which gives light to everyone, was coming into the world. 10 He was in the world, and the world was made through him, yet the world did not know him. 11 He came to his own, and his own people did not receive him. 12 But to all who did receive him, who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God, 13 who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God. 14 And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we have seen his glory, glory as of the only Son from the Father, full of grace and truth. 15 ( John bore witness about him, and cried out, “This was he of whom I said, ‘He who comes after me ranks before me, because he was before me.’”) 16 For from his fullness we have all received, grace upon grace. 17 For the law was given through Moses; grace and truth came through Jesus Christ. 18 No one has ever seen God; the only God, who is at the Father's side, he has made him known. I really don't get to deep in these topic because, Jesus is the mediator between me and my Father in Heaven, God, that's good enough for me I don't have to understand everything right now, I'll understand it better by & by. But the way I always understood it as their is one God (Elohim) his grace and mercy, his word, the designer of his creations is Jesus (Yahweh ,Yeshua) Gods Spirit, the comforter, the teacher, the giver of "some" power and gifts (Holy Spirit, Holy Ghost) are all part of one God. That is just the short version of how I feel that it works off the top of my head. But I'll tell you the best way to know Jesus is to accept Him into your life Matthew 11:29-30(KJV)29Take my yoke upon you, and learn of me; for I am meek and lowly in heart: and ye shall find rest unto your souls.30For my yoke is easy, and my burden is light. just try Him out ,He'll open up your understanding and remove the veil from your eyes. And you will still be you, just a happier version no longer a salve to sin |
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Those who hold to Trinitarian creedal views believe that God The Father, God The Son, and God The Holy Ghost are three manifestations of the same person.
Those who don't hold to the creedal views believe that God The Father, God The Son, and God The Holy Ghost are three distinct persons working together for the same purpose and goal (the salvation of man). So the answer to the OP's question will depend on who the OP is asking the question to. |
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Those who hold to Trinitarian creedal views believe that God The Father, God The Son, and God The Holy Ghost are three manifestations of the same person. Those who don't hold to the creedal views believe that God The Father, God The Son, and God The Holy Ghost are three distinct persons working together for the same purpose and goal (the salvation of man). So the answer to the OP's question will depend on who the OP is asking the question to. This is the thing that I was generally getting at, and it's something that conflicts with my (totally uneducated) view. In very simple terms, I always thought of it as a quite separate Father and Son. It was explained to me later that the Holy Ghost was simply that 'entity' (forgive me if I'm not using the right terms) that allowed for the Immaculate Conception. I think I have always had the mistaken idea that the Holy Father and Son were separate, and they interacted in the same way as a human father and son. The reason for my question is that I started to see that is wrong, and (in my words) Jesus Christ is God presenting Himself in the form He needed to interact with human beings. (I told you I was uneducated in this  )
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Those who hold to Trinitarian creedal views believe that God The Father, God The Son, and God The Holy Ghost are three manifestations of the same person. Those who don't hold to the creedal views believe that God The Father, God The Son, and God The Holy Ghost are three distinct persons working together for the same purpose and goal (the salvation of man). So the answer to the OP's question will depend on who the OP is asking the question to. This is the thing that I was generally getting at, and it's something that conflicts with my (totally uneducated) view. In very simple terms, I always thought of it as a quite separate Father and Son. It was explained to me later that the Holy Ghost was simply that 'entity' (forgive me if I'm not using the right terms) that allowed for the Immaculate Conception. I think I have always had the mistaken idea that the Holy Father and Son were separate, and they interacted in the same way as a human father and son. The reason for my question is that I started to see that is wrong, and (in my words) Jesus Christ is God presenting Himself in the form He needed to interact with human beings. (I told you I was uneducated in this )Again, whether your view was mistaken or not depends on who you are asking and how they interpret the Bible. I had somebody encourage me to re-read the Gospel of John, expecting that it would give me the Trinitarian creedal view, yet for me it cemented my view that they are seperate persons. 
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Those who hold to Trinitarian creedal views believe that God The Father, God The Son, and God The Holy Ghost are three manifestations of the same person. Those who don't hold to the creedal views believe that God The Father, God The Son, and God The Holy Ghost are three distinct persons working together for the same purpose and goal (the salvation of man). So the answer to the OP's question will depend on who the OP is asking the question to. This is the thing that I was generally getting at, and it's something that conflicts with my (totally uneducated) view. In very simple terms, I always thought of it as a quite separate Father and Son. It was explained to me later that the Holy Ghost was simply that 'entity' (forgive me if I'm not using the right terms) that allowed for the Immaculate Conception. I think I have always had the mistaken idea that the Holy Father and Son were separate, and they interacted in the same way as a human father and son. The reason for my question is that I started to see that is wrong, and (in my words) Jesus Christ is God presenting Himself in the form He needed to interact with human beings. (I told you I was uneducated in this )Again, whether your view was mistaken or not depends on who you are asking and how they interpret the Bible. I had somebody encourage me to re-read the Gospel of John, expecting that it would give me the Trinitarian creedal view, yet for me it cemented my view that they are seperate persons. Ah, understood. Thanks Shane. |
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Those who hold to Trinitarian creedal views believe that God The Father, God The Son, and God The Holy Ghost are three manifestations of the same person. Those who don't hold to the creedal views believe that God The Father, God The Son, and God The Holy Ghost are three distinct persons working together for the same purpose and goal (the salvation of man). So the answer to the OP's question will depend on who the OP is asking the question to. I understand where your coming from but how about 2 Timothy 3:15-16 and Colossians 2:8-10 |
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Those who hold to Trinitarian creedal views believe that God The Father, God The Son, and God The Holy Ghost are three manifestations of the same person. Those who don't hold to the creedal views believe that God The Father, God The Son, and God The Holy Ghost are three distinct persons working together for the same purpose and goal (the salvation of man). So the answer to the OP's question will depend on who the OP is asking the question to. This is the thing that I was generally getting at, and it's something that conflicts with my (totally uneducated) view. In very simple terms, I always thought of it as a quite separate Father and Son. It was explained to me later that the Holy Ghost was simply that 'entity' (forgive me if I'm not using the right terms) that allowed for the Immaculate Conception. I think I have always had the mistaken idea that the Holy Father and Son were separate, and they interacted in the same way as a human father and son. The reason for my question is that I started to see that is wrong, and (in my words) Jesus Christ is God presenting Himself in the form He needed to interact with human beings. (I told you I was uneducated in this )Again, whether your view was mistaken or not depends on who you are asking and how they interpret the Bible. I had somebody encourage me to re-read the Gospel of John, expecting that it would give me the Trinitarian creedal view, yet for me it cemented my view that they are seperate persons. Ah, understood. Thanks Shane. Tell you what. I'll extend the same challenge to you as was extended to me. Read (or re-read) the Gospel of John and let the scriptures tell you what the relationship is between God the Father and Jesus Christ. That way your answer comes from the Bible and not from me or anyone else telling you what you have to believe. |
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Those who hold to Trinitarian creedal views believe that God The Father, God The Son, and God The Holy Ghost are three manifestations of the same person. Those who don't hold to the creedal views believe that God The Father, God The Son, and God The Holy Ghost are three distinct persons working together for the same purpose and goal (the salvation of man). So the answer to the OP's question will depend on who the OP is asking the question to. I understand where your coming from but how about 2 Timothy 3:15-16 and Colossians 2:8-10 And? Those of both groups can use Biblical citations to support their views. I pointed out that if the OP is asking the members of Arfcom his question then the answers will depend on the views of those who respond. I just encouraged him to read The Gospel of John and learn for himself. Do you have an objection to any of that? |
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Those who hold to Trinitarian creedal views believe that God The Father, God The Son, and God The Holy Ghost are three manifestations of the same person. Those who don't hold to the creedal views believe that God The Father, God The Son, and God The Holy Ghost are three distinct persons working together for the same purpose and goal (the salvation of man). So the answer to the OP's question will depend on who the OP is asking the question to. This is the thing that I was generally getting at, and it's something that conflicts with my (totally uneducated) view. In very simple terms, I always thought of it as a quite separate Father and Son. It was explained to me later that the Holy Ghost was simply that 'entity' (forgive me if I'm not using the right terms) that allowed for the Immaculate Conception. I think I have always had the mistaken idea that the Holy Father and Son were separate, and they interacted in the same way as a human father and son. The reason for my question is that I started to see that is wrong, and (in my words) Jesus Christ is God presenting Himself in the form He needed to interact with human beings. (I told you I was uneducated in this )Again, whether your view was mistaken or not depends on who you are asking and how they interpret the Bible. I had somebody encourage me to re-read the Gospel of John, expecting that it would give me the Trinitarian creedal view, yet for me it cemented my view that they are seperate persons. Ah, understood. Thanks Shane. Tell you what. I'll extend the same challenge to you as was extended to me. Read (or re-read) the Gospel of John and let the scriptures tell you what the relationship is between God the Father and Jesus Christ. That way your answer comes from the Bible and not from me or anyone else telling you what you have to believe. Challenge accepted. However, I literally have no idea what the Gospel of John is. I suppose a reasonable guess would be IT'S IN THE BIBLE, DUMMY, but I admit freely I'm off to Google to find out where I need to go. (yes, there are people that know that little about these matters .......... well, at least one). If I understand your post, it goes to the heart of the matter here. That is to say, something in the Scriptures that addresses my original question exactly. I appreciate it. ETA: Does it start, 1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. ............ ? ETA: A little reading and it's very coincidental that I just finished up a section early in my book regarding John the Baptist. This is the John of The Gospel of John? The John that Jesus went to to be baptized? Sorry, I don't mean to turn this into a Bible study. |
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http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=John+1&version=ESV ETA: This is the Gospel according to John (the apostle). John who baptized Jesus was a different person. PAR |
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Those who hold to Trinitarian creedal views believe that God The Father, God The Son, and God The Holy Ghost are three manifestations of the same person. Those who don't hold to the creedal views believe that God The Father, God The Son, and God The Holy Ghost are three distinct persons working together for the same purpose and goal (the salvation of man). So the answer to the OP's question will depend on who the OP is asking the question to. I understand where your coming from but how about 2 Timothy 3:15-16 and Colossians 2:8-10 And? Those of both groups can use Biblical citations to support their views. I pointed out that if the OP is asking the members of Arfcom his question then the answers will depend on the views of those who respond. I just encouraged him to read The Gospel of John and learn for himself. Do you have an objection to any of that? No sir I have no objection to what you where saying ,I guess I'm saying the answers are in the Bible let's get the answer from their, just adding to what you was saying not opposing. |
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http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=John+1&version=ESV ETA: This is the Gospel according to John (the apostle). John who baptized Jesus was a different person. PAR That's exactly where I cut and pasted the above first line, so that answers that. I was immediately confused when I started reading 'John 1' and they started talking about John the Baptist. You know, when I was just a wee lad I did get sent to some sort of Bible school. One day early in the course, my mom dropped me off and I walked to the classroom. There was a substitute teacher that day, and as a little boy I freaked out because I didn't recognize the teacher. So I left and walked home. Walked a LONG way. When I got home, my mother freaked out and I never went back. So I'm not totally to blame here ...... fate conspired to my Biblical ignorance!
Thanks man. |
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Those who hold to Trinitarian creedal views believe that God The Father, God The Son, and God The Holy Ghost are three manifestations of the same person. Those who don't hold to the creedal views believe that God The Father, God The Son, and God The Holy Ghost are three distinct persons working together for the same purpose and goal (the salvation of man). So the answer to the OP's question will depend on who the OP is asking the question to. This is the thing that I was generally getting at, and it's something that conflicts with my (totally uneducated) view. In very simple terms, I always thought of it as a quite separate Father and Son. It was explained to me later that the Holy Ghost was simply that 'entity' (forgive me if I'm not using the right terms) that allowed for the Immaculate Conception. I think I have always had the mistaken idea that the Holy Father and Son were separate, and they interacted in the same way as a human father and son. The reason for my question is that I started to see that is wrong, and (in my words) Jesus Christ is God presenting Himself in the form He needed to interact with human beings. (I told you I was uneducated in this )Again, whether your view was mistaken or not depends on who you are asking and how they interpret the Bible. I had somebody encourage me to re-read the Gospel of John, expecting that it would give me the Trinitarian creedal view, yet for me it cemented my view that they are seperate persons. Ah, understood. Thanks Shane. Tell you what. I'll extend the same challenge to you as was extended to me. Read (or re-read) the Gospel of John and let the scriptures tell you what the relationship is between God the Father and Jesus Christ. That way your answer comes from the Bible and not from me or anyone else telling you what you have to believe. Challenge accepted. However, I literally have no idea what the Gospel of John is. I suppose a reasonable guess would be IT'S IN THE BIBLE, DUMMY, but I admit freely I'm off to Google to find out where I need to go. (yes, there are people that know that little about these matters .......... well, at least one). If I understand your post, it goes to the heart of the matter here. That is to say, something in the Scriptures that addresses my original question exactly. I appreciate it. ETA: Does it start, 1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. ............ ? ETA: A little reading and it's very coincidental that I just finished up a section early in my book regarding John the Baptist. This is the John of The Gospel of John? The John that Jesus went to to be baptized? Sorry, I don't mean to turn this into a Bible study. The fourth book of the New Testament. Yeah, it starts with "In the beginning was the word..." 
No, the John who wrote the Gospel of John isn't the same as John the Baptist. This would be the apostle John the Revelator, also known as John the Beloved. |
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Those who hold to Trinitarian creedal views believe that God The Father, God The Son, and God The Holy Ghost are three manifestations of the same person. Those who don't hold to the creedal views believe that God The Father, God The Son, and God The Holy Ghost are three distinct persons working together for the same purpose and goal (the salvation of man). So the answer to the OP's question will depend on who the OP is asking the question to. I understand where your coming from but how about 2 Timothy 3:15-16 and Colossians 2:8-10 And? Those of both groups can use Biblical citations to support their views. I pointed out that if the OP is asking the members of Arfcom his question then the answers will depend on the views of those who respond. I just encouraged him to read The Gospel of John and learn for himself. Do you have an objection to any of that? No sir I have no objection to what you where saying ,I guess I'm saying the answers are in the Bible let's get the answer from their, just adding to what you was saying not opposing. If I misunderstood you or over-reacted then I apologize.
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I don't try and comprehend what is probably impossible for my little pea brain to comprehend anymore. I just accept it, just like I accept that light can be both a particle and a wavelength. It's a particle. I think.
I know what you mean, my friend. But I guess I just got to the point that I feel I need to put more effort in attempting to comprehend. Jesus Christ, I mean, not quantum theory............ for sure I'm not set up for that. |
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Is Jesus Christ God? More specifically, is it accurate to say that Jesus Christ is God presented in human form? Is it that God and Jesus are not two separate entities, rather the same thing in different forms? James, you sent me an IM asking for my comments, so I will post them, although I usually do not post in the Religion Forum. I am a Southern Baptist, so this is what we believe. We believe in the Trinity, the Triune God of the Bible, Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. The Triune God is unlike humans in so many ways that it is impossible for us to "understand" Him completely. He is Infinite and we are finite. We will never fully understand God. But He has revealed Himself in the bible as a God in Three Persons, the Trinity. It is impossible for humans to fully wrap their minds around that fact, but there it is. Jesus is part of the Trinity, and He is and was, fully God and fully human. He is God. |
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Is Jesus Christ God? More specifically, is it accurate to say that Jesus Christ is God presented in human form? Is it that God and Jesus are not two separate entities, rather the same thing in different forms? James, you sent me an IM asking for my comments, so I will post them, although I usually do not post in the Religion Forum. I am a Southern Baptist, so this is what we believe. We believe in the Trinity, the Triune God of the Bible, Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. The Triune God is unlike humans in so many ways that it is impossible for us to "understand" Him completely. He is Infinite and we are finite. We will never fully understand God. But He has revealed Himself in the bible as a God in Three Persons, the Trinity. It is impossible for humans to fully wrap their minds around that fact, but there it is. Jesus is part of the Trinity, and He is and was, fully God and fully human. He is God. Oh snap. If it were appropriate in the thread, I'm afraid I would insert some profanity here. I had a reply typed out and it went poof. I do hate when that happens. No bother. I summed it up in a IM. Thanks O_P. |
| OP I say let yourself believe. THere is God the father, Jesus Christ his only son whom he sent her to die for our sins so that we all could live, and the Holy Spirit that should fill us all if we truly believe. I'll admit I am not the best Christian around. I curse, snort, don't go to church, generally try to keep my beliefs to myself. BUT I do believe in God above and I believe that he is good. I have proof if you would like to see it. My six month old baby girl. If I had any questions about the fact that there was a God they were all washed away the day she was born. She is my little miracle. Why God chose to bless a fool like me with a such a beatiful little angel I cannot tell you. But I am VERY grateful. Sometimes you just have to put science and logic aside and take things on faith. Just my .02. |
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I would submit that they are both of the above views. 3 totally separate beings and yet the same. The reason i say that is because in the bible some times it looks like one and sometimes the other. I don't want to say either is wrong since i can see a case for both, and that is MY view so don't bank on it. A good explanation of the trinity and this does break down like all analogies do with the trinity.
If I said bring me so H2O what would you bring me. It could be solid liquid or gas. All the same and in perfect harmony yet all entirely different. Its the best explanation I have for myself. Hope that helps or at least doesn't hurt. |
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OP I say let yourself believe. THere is God the father, Jesus Christ his only son whom he sent her to die for our sins so that we all could live, and the Holy Spirit that should fill us all if we truly believe. I'll admit I am not the best Christian around. I curse, snort, don't go to church, generally try to keep my beliefs to myself. BUT I do believe in God above and I believe that he is good. I have proof if you would like to see it. My six month old baby girl. If I had any questions about the fact that there was a God they were all washed away the day she was born. She is my little miracle. Why God chose to bless a fool like me with a such a beatiful little angel I cannot tell you. But I am VERY grateful. Sometimes you just have to put science and logic aside and take things on faith. Just my .02. Six months? I have never been in your shoes, but I've been witness enough to know that you have your hands full right now. Congrats, my man, and thanks for your thoughts. |
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I would submit that they are both of the above views. 3 totally separate beings and yet the same. The reason i say that is because in the bible some times it looks like one and sometimes the other. I don't want to say either is wrong since i can see a case for both, and that is MY view so don't bank on it. A good explanation of the trinity and this does break down like all analogies do with the trinity. If I said bring me so H2O what would you bring me. It could be solid liquid or gas. All the same and in perfect harmony yet all entirely different. Its the best explanation I have for myself. Hope that helps or at least doesn't hurt. When it comes to more profound concepts such as our subject matter here, my mind has a governor that just won't let it go beyond a certain speed. It takes simple and tangible analogies like this help me to think it through. Thanks. Sipping coffee and viewing as we speak. Thanks! |
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OP I say let yourself believe. THere is God the father, Jesus Christ his only son whom he sent her to die for our sins so that we all could live, and the Holy Spirit that should fill us all if we truly believe. I'll admit I am not the best Christian around. I curse, snort, don't go to church, generally try to keep my beliefs to myself. BUT I do believe in God above and I believe that he is good. I have proof if you would like to see it. My six month old baby girl. If I had any questions about the fact that there was a God they were all washed away the day she was born. She is my little miracle. Why God chose to bless a fool like me with a such a beatiful little angel I cannot tell you. But I am VERY grateful. Sometimes you just have to put science and logic aside and take things on faith. Just my .02. Six months? I have never been in your shoes, but I've been witness enough to know that you have your hands full right now. Congrats, my man, and thanks for your thoughts. Thanks sir. You may see me on here again asking for prayers for patince and understanding............... LOL 
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From the resident denier of the Trinitarian heresy.
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Is Jesus Christ God? YHWH, No. God in the sense that Moses was, Yes (John 10:34-39) More specifically, is it accurate to say that Jesus Christ is God presented in human form? Yes. Is it that God and Jesus are not two separate entities, rather the same thing in different forms? No Not ever being educated regarding this, I always thought of it as Father and Son, two separate and distinct entities. Scripture does the same thing over and over and over again. A little reading I have been doing (not the Bible .... it's presented as a 'biography' of Jesus), I don't think this is right. Good. But read/study the bible to make sure what they are saying is in agreement with it as Paul praised the Bereans for doing. |
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[ Thanks sir. You may see me on here again asking for prayers for patince and understanding............... LOL As someone who was in your shoes 9 years and six months ago with my son, I do comprehend what you mean. :) Our son got us back to the Son, someone that my wife never knew before and someone that I had wandered away from myself. As a Lutheran (somewhere between the tenants of the ELCA and LCMS doctrines) I do fully believe in the triune God. The way I see it is this (note: none of this is scripturally based AFAIK) our brains can't comprehend someone as 'big' as God so seeing three distinct aspects helps us have somewhat of an understanding of how God exists based upon our perceptions. |
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Others have made very good representations of Christian doctrine from different perspectives. So, not being able to add much, I'll just say this (for what it's worth): In my view, the truly ineffable attributes of God are such that, from our perspective, sometimes they seem like contradictions; yet I, and most disciples of Christ, I would hope, have no difficulty accepting the awe-inspiring truths that the Lord is both Just and yet Merciful; Loving and yet wrathful; Powerful enough to bend the whole of Creation to His will, and yet also loving enough to allow His creations to knowingly reject Him. Superficially it is difficult to assimilate, but only in the fullness of time and blessing do we come to faith. I believe that Christ the Son is God, but not God the Father, nor God the Holy Ghost. Since that is clear as mud, I would say simply that I believe that there is one God and yet that He is also three separate personalities. Paradox? Perhaps only to our human sensibilities. |
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Quoted: Those who hold to Trinitarian creedal views believe that God The Father, God The Son, and God The Holy Ghost are three manifestations of the same person. This is not a correct description of the Trinity at all! What you have just described is modalism, also called Sabellianism. For those of us who believe in the Trinity, it is this: 3 divine Persons in 1 God. All 3 Persons share the same divine nature (are of one being), but they are distinct, co-eternal, co-equal persons who coexist in perfect unity.  |
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Those who hold to Trinitarian creedal views believe that God The Father, God The Son, and God The Holy Ghost are three manifestations of the same person. This is not a correct description of the Trinity at all! What you have just described is modalism, also called Sabellianism. For those of us who believe in the Trinity, it is this: 3 divine Persons in 1 God. All 3 Persons share the same divine nature (are of one being), but they are distinct, co-eternal, co-equal persons who coexist in perfect unity. http://i864.photobucket.com/albums/ab201/roosclan/Misc/trinity01.jpg Are each of them God? If so, and if they are distinct, does that mean you believe in three Gods? Do you believe that God the Father and God The Son are seperate/distinct persons then? |
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I find myself feeling more and more the truthfullness of 3 beings of one accord over the years. If this were not the case, would not The Christ keep silent instead of crying out to the Father by name? You are allowed to disagree with me but I am not going to argue the point. These are legitimate questions by the op and we should let go with what we think and just point to the sources.
Op, I suggest you use your bible concordance and find all the scriptures refering to "trinity" "God the Father", etc. Then pray over the subject and decide for yourself. I suspect you already have an idea about this |
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These are legitimate questions by the op and we should let go with what we think and just point to the sources. While a little confusing, I admit, I do see the value of the different opinions and philosophies being presented here. I know full well the subject matter brings out some very strong feelings, but as far as I can see these are being presented respectfully and with an open mind (and maybe with a little empathy for someone in my shoes that is struggling with the ultimate question). Quoted:
I suspect you already have an idea about this Only very vaguely, my friend! Thanks to all that have contributed to my thread. These ideas have helped me to ponder this weighty issue, and I appreciate all of your thoughts. Certainly feel free to add to the thread at any time. Cheers. |