Posted: 1/7/2004 12:49:55 AM EDT
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I'm just starting the process of looking at some Less Lethal weapons for our Department. I need some input from any of you who have used them, or our currently issued them at your Department. I'm at looking at: *Pepper ball guns, *Tasers and *Bean bag rounds, I'm intersted in knowing: *How much time training you've spent on them. *What your Department policy is on the deployment of the device(s). *The effectiveness of the weapon used. Any input would be greatly appreciated. |
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I've fired beanbags under stress and am assigned Less Lethal as one of my duties for our SST. If you go with beanbags, make sure you do the ones that have the tails on that act like a kite tail. They improve accuracy greatly and range only slightly. We haven't used pepperball, but a concern I would have with them is how the gun and balls perform in cold weather. The CO2 as a liquid is difficult to use in cold weather with paintball users, and the regular paintballs themselves hurt like an SOB when they get cold since they tend not to break as well. That would pretty much negate the use of it. I fired two beanbag shots at a guy diving for a shotgun at one of our incidents. He felt it but only flinched and continued to grab for the gun. He was shot by a 308 as my second round hit him. I feel they have a purpose, and I would really have to evaluate if I would consider it again if a firearm is involved. Things happen much too quickly. Distance is a factor, and you have to be CLOSE! The Taser and Pepperball require you to be much closer, and I woulnd't consider Less Lethal in most situations unless lethal cover is available to the Less Lethal Officer. Training is coming out and options with the TASER are making it feasible to use while solo, but to me it still allows suspects to close the gap to you too much. Training? Yeah right. Unfortunately for us, the incident many times is considered to be wonderful training by the admin. Not good, and we fight it every chance we get. Policy on deployment right now is pretty felxible and is usually tied in with a SST (SWAT) deployment and authorized by the SGT/Asst Team Commander, Team Commander/Corporal or the Chief Deputy. Under exigent circumstances the deputies that are trained in the use of whatever Less Lethal is going to be used is thought to have enough training and ability to shoot a lethal weapon without authorization and is trusted to make the same decision with Less Lethal if need be. |
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We are starting to field the Air Taser in great numbers, bright yellow carried in a thigh holster. They are working very well, and officers are beginning to call for equipped officers to meet them at EDP scenes. Training is one day for officers and additional for supervisors. LTL are dedicated and modified shotguns. Not seeing as much street use with these, though they play a major part in our riot control plan. We've been using a variety of ammo, from the tailed bean bag rounds to the little plastic beer keg type. (Those seem to hit harder) In my opinion, not that reliable a stopper as the taser, great for targeting folks throwing rocks etc. You can really mess someone up if you are not careful. I have not seen a situation where they were a successful use in domestic or EDP calls yet. (mainly because I suspect the taser is preferred) Training with LTL is incorporated into weapons qual yearly. Policy is pretty much the same for both, violent subjects with or without weapons. LTL uses requires a visit to the ER before booking. Under the Riot control plan, pretty much any violent resistance to officers merits LTL use. We go thru a lot of pepper spray as well. dept's not really sure of the pepperballs yet. Saw some use during the peace protests, but not really on the street at this point. The academy guys are still playing with the concept. My general feeling is to give the LTL guys pepper rounds instead of fooling with yet another system. |
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I think most agencies are using the Taser as the "primary" LL device, followed by the bean bag shotgun. Locally, we issued tasers to everyone on the street with weak side holsters. (Bad idea). The holsters are extremly uncomfortable, if you can afford the new, smaller X26 Taser, its worth every penny, as it will be worn. We still have the bean bags- but I havent heard of one being pulled out in years. Still, I can think of many scenarios where one might be needed, so dont ignore the need for one. Someday taser will invent the taser rifle, for distance shots.[:D] Our policy is pretty simple, and basically we are to use the taser if we know a hands on approach wont work without a fight. Ive seen instances where they have stopped foot pursuits with the taser, actually hitting the perp on the run. (Stop, drop and roll) The taser (jeez, I'm sounding like a salesman here) has been very effective, practically becoming the go to weapon for LL. Why? Because it's there. Despite being uncomfortable, many of our officer do actually carry the taser on the belt. The only non-effective hits were instances where the probes missed or heavy clothing prevents them from making the "connection". I'd suggest starting with the taser, but emphasize that other means of LL must be available as well, including bean bags and pepperball. |
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i agree with azk9, we have tasers with us on the street and are currently at the same level as aerosol chemical restraints; it's our choice which to deploy. i have used the taser on a number of occasions and with the exception of one cartridge failure, it works great. i will add, however, that when used in contact mode, its use is limited on persons that are highly intoxicated on ETOH (better than .25bac, which is what i deal with mostly). however, let's not forget the original less lethal tool, the K9. usually just the presence of my partner brings a situation to a close in a hurry. |
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Thanks for the input. My brother is working for a neighboring P.D. and they just went with the X26 taser. My only concern with those is the distance factor. The Pepperball seems like a good idea, with the "shock" of being shot, combined with the effect of the irritant. The bean bags are out. As natez stated, Trying to train officers not to shoot center mass with bean bags would be opening a pandora's box. One of our guys was recently certified with the X26 taser and is carrying it on patrol, I guess we'll wait and see how he and the other local Depts. fair with them before we consider the Pepperball guns. Thanks again guys. |
| Our Department issues one M26 Advanced taser per shift, and two supervisors have X26's. We have a peperball gun but its been worthless. The gun works well but thier decision to go with a proprietary caliber means you have to purchase thier marking balls, and a can of peperballs (150 I think) is more than a two pack of 21ft Taser cartridges. |
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We don't have the Tazers yet although they are coming. If you want a lot of good info on them contact these 2 police officers. Staff Sgt. Peter Sherstan @[email][email protected][/email] and Cpl. Tim Anctil ([i]Court recognized expert for TASER brand technology[/i]) @ [email][email protected][/email] From the Air Tazer web site. 2. Royal Canadian Mounted Police Canada Staff Sgt. Peter Sherstan 780-412-5230 [email protected] Royal Canadian Mounted Police Canada Cpl. Tim Anctil (Court recognized expert for TASER brand technology) 604-807-4161 [email protected] and [email protected] Conducted the most thorough testing of TASER technology. Underwent a massive T&E and research on ADVANCED TASERs and both are extremely knowledgeable experts. [url]http://www.taser.com/pages/pr/references.html[/url] [blue]edited to add..when we do get tazers they will be lower on our use of force scale then chemical agents due to not having to de-contaminate after.[/blue] |
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While my agency does not use these less than lethals, during the FTAA protests in Miami, we had some individuals from the Federal Protective Service attached to us. They were using a compressed air rifle made by FN. (FN350 I think). Shot both pepper ball and marker rounds made of thin plastic with some sort of shot for weight. In addition, the rounds were fin stabilized. Rifles themselves used drum type magazines and were semi auto. All in all more effective than bean bags for standoff shots. Their SOP is a day of training. PM me an I can give you a point of contact. |