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Posted: 8/13/2023 10:38:20 AM EDT
[#1]
Are those the Phillips screwdriver bullets?
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Posted: 8/13/2023 10:40:15 AM EDT
[#2]
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Posted: 8/13/2023 10:42:12 AM EDT
[#3]
Quote HistoryQuote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Are those the Phillips screwdriver bullets? Yes.https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/559457/opplanet-lehigh-defense-xtreme-defense-4-2918135.JPG Thanks. I haven't really looked into them much so I'm interested to see the conversation. |
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Posted: 8/13/2023 10:43:28 AM EDT
[#4]
I got to play with some of the polycase swirly ones before they released. I loaded some in 9mm and shot a few blocks of clear ballistics. I'll see if I can find the video and pictures.
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Posted: 8/13/2023 10:46:21 AM EDT
[#5]
As far as I can tell the only reason they haven't caught on is the cost vs conventional JHPs - which are "good enough".
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Posted: 8/13/2023 10:48:50 AM EDT
[#6]
Quote HistoryThey'll screw up somebody's day. |
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Posted: 8/13/2023 10:48:58 AM EDT
[#7]
they're a scam designed to make a big temp cavity in clear gel to look good on youtube/instragram. a temp cavity cannot add wounding at the velocity of most pistol bullets. at pistol velocities, only a permanent cavity affects wounding
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Posted: 8/13/2023 10:50:55 AM EDT
[#8]
Don't forget that gel "cavities" don't actually mean same performance in live tissue.
Gel was developed as a standardized medium to compare bullets to each other not equate performance in living things. |
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Posted: 8/13/2023 10:54:13 AM EDT
[#9]
Quote HistoryQuoted: they're a scam designed to make a big temp cavity in clear gel to look good on youtube/instragram. a temp cavity cannot add wounding at the velocity of most pistol bullets  Lehigh Defense 45ACP 120 gr Xtreme Defense 10% Ballistic Gel Test  Underwood Extreme Defender 9mm 68gr +P & 90gr Standard Pressure Ballistic Gel Test See, this is why I brought the subject up. I thought it would be a good discussion on whether FTM bullets actually bring anything to the table. So, the gel tests show phenomenal performance, but I haven't seen anything regarding real-world use that shows that these results are worth anything. |
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Posted: 8/13/2023 10:55:45 AM EDT
[#10]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Don't forget that gel "cavities" don't actually mean same performance in live tissue. Gel was developed as a standardized medium to compare bullets to each other not equate performance in living things. The point of the thread is that I want to see if there are any resources that show FTM bullets are actually better than JHP bullets. I'm a bit skeptical of the concept. ETA that yeah, temporary cavities and permanent cavities are different, that's part of where my skepticism comes from. People present these gel tests and say "look how much better these are than hollow-point bullets, these are amazing," and I can't help but wonder if there's chicanery afoot. |
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Posted: 8/13/2023 11:01:35 AM EDT
[#11]
How is the accuracy of these rounds. It doesn't look like it would be very stable in flight. And harder to perfectly balance vs a hollowpoint.
At the speed it's spinning you would think those flats would act like a prop and drift it to the right slightly. |
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Posted: 8/13/2023 11:02:30 AM EDT
[#12]
Great thread. Subscribed.
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Posted: 8/13/2023 11:02:35 AM EDT
[#13]
Fmj that may penetrate easier than swc/wc designs... no department i've ever heard of has adopted so
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Posted: 8/13/2023 11:06:03 AM EDT
[#14]
Quote HistoryQuoted:  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZucsRIgULCY https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=76TNHmoW1eMSee, this is why I brought the subject up. I thought it would be a good discussion on whether FTM bullets actually bring anything to the table. So, the gel tests show phenomenal performance, but I haven't seen anything regarding real-world use that shows that these results are worth anything. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: they're a scam designed to make a big temp cavity in clear gel to look good on youtube/instragram. a temp cavity cannot add wounding at the velocity of most pistol bullets https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZucsRIgULCY https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=76TNHmoW1eMSee, this is why I brought the subject up. I thought it would be a good discussion on whether FTM bullets actually bring anything to the table. So, the gel tests show phenomenal performance, but I haven't seen anything regarding real-world use that shows that these results are worth anything. Look at the bullet speed, that is where any additional wounding effect is coming from, not the actual bullet design. Load the same bullet design at 850 FPS and shoot it. |
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Posted: 8/13/2023 11:08:07 AM EDT
[#15]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Look at the bullet speed, that is where any additional wounding effect is coming from, not the actual bullet design. Load the same bullet design at 850 FPS and shoot it. I'm not sure what the powder charges are, but it seems to me that bullet design affects speed when we're talking about spun copper bullets. 
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Posted: 8/13/2023 11:08:25 AM EDT
[#16]
Its what i put in my wifes carry pistol. Lighter rounds less recoil.
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Posted: 8/13/2023 11:11:18 AM EDT
[#17]
Quote HistoryQuoted: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZucsRIgULCY https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=76TNHmoW1eMSee, this is why I brought the subject up. I thought it would be a good discussion on whether FTM bullets actually bring anything to the table. So, the gel tests show phenomenal performance, but I haven't seen anything regarding real-world use that shows that these results are worth anything. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: they're a scam designed to make a big temp cavity in clear gel to look good on youtube/instragram. a temp cavity cannot add wounding at the velocity of most pistol bullets https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZucsRIgULCY https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=76TNHmoW1eMSee, this is why I brought the subject up. I thought it would be a good discussion on whether FTM bullets actually bring anything to the table. So, the gel tests show phenomenal performance, but I haven't seen anything regarding real-world use that shows that these results are worth anything.  . The permanent cavity runs through the center of the wound channel and is created by what the bullet physically contacts  |
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Posted: 8/13/2023 11:15:55 AM EDT
[#18]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Those videos show exactly what I said. JHP sized temporary cavities and FMJ penetration. Along with idiot youtubers that don't know the difference between a temp and permanent wound cavity. They keep calling the temp cavity the permanent cavity . The permanent cavity runs through the center of the wound channel and is created by what the bullet physically contacts https://www.everydaymarksman.co/wp-content/uploads/2019/05/fackler_note5.jpg Now this is the criticism I was wanting to see. I've never actually seen anything to support whether FTM bullets are better than JHP bullets, hence the skepticism I mentioned. FTM bullets look really good in ballistic gel tests, but where's the meat and potatoes, so to speak? The more I think about it, the more it sounds like FTM bullets are all tofu and processed paste. |
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Posted: 8/13/2023 11:16:06 AM EDT
[#19]
Quote HistoryQuote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Are those the Phillips screwdriver bullets? Yes.https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/559457/opplanet-lehigh-defense-xtreme-defense-4-2918135.JPG That’s what I have in my P-32. In testing, it seemed to penetrate like an FMJ and have a cavity more like a JHP. |
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Posted: 8/13/2023 11:16:18 AM EDT
[#20]
I know of guides and hunters in Alaska that use Underwood loads of these, +P, on their hunts/guides - penetration is why. I wouldn't use them for self defense against any 2 legged or smaller 4 legged critter Deer-sized or smaller, but for bears, moose, anything with thick skin, thick skulls, or lots of distance between the outer dermis and inner CNS...their penetration should get you there with less effort than a heavy hardcast would need to get there too. Not to mention less wear and tear on you...a good bit less thump than a heavy hardcast to get the same penetration.
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Posted: 8/13/2023 11:19:42 AM EDT
[#21]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I know of guides and hunters in Alaska that use Underwood loads of these, +P, on their hunts/guides - penetration is why. I wouldn't use them for self defense against any 2 legged or smaller 4 legged critter Deer-sized or smaller, but for bears, moose, anything with thick skin, thick skulls, or lots of distance between the outer dermis and inner CNS...their penetration should get you there with less effort than a heavy hardcast would need to get there too. Not to mention less wear and tear on you...a good bit less thump than a heavy hardcast to get the same penetration. Some copper monolithic bullets seem like they might actually make a good choice for hunting use against large animals like moose and grizzly bears, but I'm talking about FTM bullets as used for personal defense against two-legged critters. |
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Posted: 8/13/2023 11:19:43 AM EDT
[#22]
Quote HistoryQuoted: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZucsRIgULCY https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=76TNHmoW1eMSee, this is why I brought the subject up. I thought it would be a good discussion on whether FTM bullets actually bring anything to the table. So, the gel tests show phenomenal performance, but I haven't seen anything regarding real-world use that shows that these results are worth anything. I do know a member here shot an aggressive pitbull with a .32ACP with these bullets, and it was put down very effectively. That’s what got my attention to look into them. |
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Posted: 8/13/2023 11:24:05 AM EDT
[#23]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I do know a member here shot an aggressive pitbull with a .32ACP with these bullets, and it was put down very effectively. That’s what got my attention to look into them. That sounds like great performance, but I'm on the hunt for things like what @mcantu posted earlier, as cross-sections of wound cavities tell me a lot. |
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Posted: 8/13/2023 11:30:40 AM EDT
[#24]
FTM ...
Lol |
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Posted: 8/13/2023 11:30:40 AM EDT
[#25]
HST, Gold Dots, or Ranger those are the options
That being said I carry Federal Punch .38 special in my S&W 442 no lock. |
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Posted: 8/13/2023 11:34:37 AM EDT
[#26]
Quote HistoryQuoted: HST, Gold Dots, or Ranger those are the options That being said I carry Federal Punch .38 special in my S&W 442 no lock. I'm currently running 147gr HSTs. I find it hard to believe that FTMs (Xtreme Defenders as shown in the two videos) are better. The FTMs look good at first, but then things start looking a little... Fishy. ETA that when talking about these gel tests, someone else brought up the point that permanent cavities in ballistic gel aren't actually permanent cavities, they're temporary cavities when it comes to living tissue. That's where I get skeptical of FTM effectiveness. |
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Posted: 8/13/2023 11:46:47 AM EDT
[#27]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I'm currently running 147gr HSTs. I find it hard to believe that FTMs (Xtreme Defenders as shown in the two videos) are better. The FTMs look good at first, but then things start looking a little... Fishy. ETA that when talking about these gel tests, someone else brought up the point that permanent cavities in ballistic gel aren't actually permanent cavities, they're temporary cavities when it comes to living tissue. That's where I get skeptical of FTM effectiveness. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: HST, Gold Dots, or Ranger those are the options That being said I carry Federal Punch .38 special in my S&W 442 no lock. I'm currently running 147gr HSTs. I find it hard to believe that FTMs (Xtreme Defenders as shown in the two videos) are better. The FTMs look good at first, but then things start looking a little... Fishy. ETA that when talking about these gel tests, someone else brought up the point that permanent cavities in ballistic gel aren't actually permanent cavities, they're temporary cavities when it comes to living tissue. That's where I get skeptical of FTM effectiveness. Ya I’m not a believer in FTM projectiles and think they are a gimmick, I use 124 gr HSTs in my 9mm guns. I wish I could find HSTs in 38 special. I have seen the same gel tests and they usually always over penetrate which I do not like |
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Posted: 8/13/2023 11:49:09 AM EDT
[#28]
They work exactly as designed when they impact at the designed velocity.
The displacement caused by the flutes is not, was not intended to make a large single permanent wound cavity. The flutes cause a very fine hi velocity fluid jet to act like a blade on a broad head arrow. 3 or 4 liquid blades slicing through whatever soft tissue, arteries, etc. it encounters. It does that very well until the velocity drops and in many cases the diameter of that swath of "cuts" is quite a bit larger than that of traditional hollow points. They sting the shit out of hogs from a S&W shield at 20-35 yards. Usually causes them to stumble if not fall down with the first round. Only reason I stopped using them is I had several malfunctions caused by the sharp edge of the flutes hanging up on the chamber/ramp. A stiffer recoil spring would probably fix it..? It’s slight but happens often enough to cause concern for a carry gun. Actually..one shield runs them fine and one does not. It’s odd. Old single stack runs them. New 12rd does not. I carry the 12 rd shield now. |
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Posted: 8/13/2023 11:54:52 AM EDT
[#29]
Quote HistoryQuoted: How is the accuracy of these rounds. It doesn't look like it would be very stable in flight. And harder to perfectly balance vs a hollowpoint. At the speed it's spinning you would think those flats would act like a prop and drift it to the right slightly. If that were the case ... one would compensate for with drifting the sight. But I don't see these being used for 250-yard target shooting much. More like inside 20-yards for 99% of the shots. |
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Posted: 8/13/2023 11:59:58 AM EDT
[#30]
Quote HistoryQuoted: They work exactly as designed when they impact at the designed velocity. The displacement caused by the flutes is not, was not intended to make a large single permanent wound cavity. The flutes cause a very fine hi velocity fluid jet to act like a blade on a broad head arrow. 3 or 4 liquid blades slicing through whatever soft tissue, arteries, etc. it encounters. It does that very well until the velocity drops and in many cases the diameter of that swath of "cuts" is quite a bit larger than that of traditional hollow points. They sting the shit out of hogs from a S&W shield at 20-35 yards. Usually causes them to stumble if not fall down with the first round. Only reason I stopped using them is I had several malfunctions caused by the sharp edge of the flutes hanging up on the chamber/ramp. A stiffer recoil spring would probably fix it..? It's slight but happens often enough to cause concern for a carry gun. Actually..one shield runs them fine and one does not. It's odd. Old single stack runs them. New 12rd does not. I carry the 12 rd shield now. the energy that creates a pistol bullet temporary cavity, even when called in marketing speak 'a very fine hi velocity fluid jet that acts like the blade on a broad head arrow'  is not capable of stretching elastic soft tissue enough to damage it. It takes rifle velocities for that |
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Posted: 8/13/2023 12:16:32 PM EDT
[#31]
The Lehigh extreme defense 65 grain was the only one I was able to penetrate 3A body armor with using a glock 19, so there is that going for it (124+p gold dot, 80 grain fort scott TUI and 50 grain civil defense would not penetrate in my testing, even being shot from a ruger charger).
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Posted: 8/13/2023 12:27:25 PM EDT
[#32]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Don't forget that gel "cavities" don't actually mean same performance in live tissue. Gel was developed as a standardized medium to compare bullets to each other not equate performance in living things. This. Want real, live data? Go hunt some hogs with them, see what they actually do. I’d say those designs are great if they’re loaded to 2K+ FPS velocity. Under that, hard “meh,” save for being effectively a FMJ with good penetration and mildly better soft tissue damage. |
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Posted: 8/13/2023 12:32:04 PM EDT
[#33]
I remember a Wilson Combat video on these bullets from a while back. Seems like snake oil to me, but I'm interested in real, unbiased data.
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Posted: 8/13/2023 12:32:23 PM EDT
[#34]
Quote HistoryQuoted: The Lehigh extreme defense 65 grain was the only one I was able to penetrate 3A body armor with using a glock 19, so there is that going for it (124+p gold dot, 80 grain fort scott TUI and 50 grain civil defense would not penetrate in my testing, even being shot from a ruger charger). Speed defeats armor. Take a typical FMJ or HP design and crank up the speed to 2000 FPS and it'll zing right through also. The faster you go, the better you can defeat armor. |
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Posted: 8/13/2023 12:37:44 PM EDT
[#35]
With no evidence to back up this statement, I think these bullets were designed to beat gel tests. Were gel tests designed to approximate real world shooting or to compare penetration and expansion of conventional bullets against each other? Have there been any actual real life shootings where these were used? Maybe they need to pass them out in Chicacongo and wait for real world results.
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Posted: 8/13/2023 12:43:25 PM EDT
[#36]
Quote HistoryQuoted: The Lehigh extreme defense 65 grain was the only one I was able to penetrate 3A body armor with using a glock 19, so there is that going for it (124+p gold dot, 80 grain fort scott TUI and 50 grain civil defense would not penetrate in my testing, even being shot from a ruger charger). Here is the correct rationale for these bullets. The flutes are meaningless from a terminal ballistic standpoint. Pistols have rather slow rifling twist rates. Even allowing for reduction in forward velocity, the bullet is going to make maybe two or (at best) three revolutions in the body. Even if the tiny amount of surface area of the side of the flutes actually contacts tissue (doubtful), it's the equivalent of trying to move a sandbag with a spoon. OTOH, velocity is king when it comes to penetrating armor. Here the flutes are useful: they reduce bullet weight while allowing it to retain enough length to be reasonably stable. So, even if they are mediocre from a terminal ballistic standpoint, a mediocre bullet that gets in is better than an excellent bullet that doesn't. Since the average bipedal predator isn't wearing armor, fluted bullets offer no advantage. For those situations where the bad man has armor, they do offer an advantage. How to predict that is the sticking point. |
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Posted: 8/13/2023 12:51:40 PM EDT
[#37]
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Posted: 8/13/2023 12:52:43 PM EDT
[#38]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Here is the correct rationale for these bullets. The flutes are meaningless from a terminal ballistic standpoint. Pistols have rather slow rifling twist rates. Even allowing for reduction in forward velocity, the bullet is going to make maybe two or (at best) three revolutions in the body. Even if the tiny amount of surface area of the side of the flutes actually contacts tissue (doubtful), it's the equivalent of trying to move a sandbag with a spoon. OTOH, velocity is king when it comes to penetrating armor. Here the flutes are useful: they reduce bullet weight while allowing it to retain enough length to be reasonably stable. So, even if they are mediocre from a terminal ballistic standpoint, a mediocre bullet that gets in is better than an excellent bullet that doesn't. Since the average bipedal predator isn't wearing armor, fluted bullets offer no advantage. For those situations where the bad man has armor, they do offer an advantage. How to predict that is the sticking point. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: The Lehigh extreme defense 65 grain was the only one I was able to penetrate 3A body armor with using a glock 19, so there is that going for it (124+p gold dot, 80 grain fort scott TUI and 50 grain civil defense would not penetrate in my testing, even being shot from a ruger charger). Here is the correct rationale for these bullets. The flutes are meaningless from a terminal ballistic standpoint. Pistols have rather slow rifling twist rates. Even allowing for reduction in forward velocity, the bullet is going to make maybe two or (at best) three revolutions in the body. Even if the tiny amount of surface area of the side of the flutes actually contacts tissue (doubtful), it's the equivalent of trying to move a sandbag with a spoon. OTOH, velocity is king when it comes to penetrating armor. Here the flutes are useful: they reduce bullet weight while allowing it to retain enough length to be reasonably stable. So, even if they are mediocre from a terminal ballistic standpoint, a mediocre bullet that gets in is better than an excellent bullet that doesn't. Since the average bipedal predator isn't wearing armor, fluted bullets offer no advantage. For those situations where the bad man has armor, they do offer an advantage. How to predict that is the sticking point. I was testing for fun as I carry 147 HST but was curious if I could find a round to defeat soft armor, to be honest I was sure the TUI and civil defense would and was not sure about the Lehigh but it was the only one that would. |
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Posted: 8/13/2023 12:58:16 PM EDT
[#39]
Isn't the handgun problem the velocity? You have to go 2000 fps plus to make a difference between any handgun caliber with any projectile? Handguns are substitutes for more capable rifles. Feel free to correct me.
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Posted: 8/13/2023 1:07:22 PM EDT
[#40]
Paul Harrell shot his meat targets with the extreme defenders and they did good. 5 min in for the extreme defenders into the meat target.
 Extreme Defender and G2 Research RIP 9mm Ammo |
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Posted: 8/13/2023 2:51:17 PM EDT
[#41]
Concur with Evil_Ed: I might consider them if I wanted FMJ-like penetration against big/dangerous game…then again there are a lot of proven alternatives such as hard cast.
Personal defense: proven HPs. |
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Posted: 8/13/2023 3:04:12 PM EDT
[#42]
Quote HistoryQuoted: With no evidence to back up this statement, I think these bullets were designed to beat gel tests. Were gel tests designed to approximate real world shooting or to compare penetration and expansion of conventional bullets against each other? Have there been any actual real life shootings where these were used? Maybe they need to pass them out in Chicacongo and wait for real world results. They’ve been out long enough now that there should be real world examples of self defense usage. I’m guessing someone better at Google than me could find it. |
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Posted: 8/13/2023 3:50:01 PM EDT
[#43]
I’d rather have hollow points that expand.
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Posted: 8/13/2023 4:05:59 PM EDT
[#44]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Don't forget that gel "cavities" don't actually mean same performance in live tissue. Gel was developed as a standardized medium to compare bullets to each other not equate performance in living things. So bigger cavity in gel means better performance? |
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Posted: 8/13/2023 4:22:16 PM EDT
[#45]
Not a lot of “street cred”. I don’t know if it’s just because they’re new(er) and/or adoption rate is slow. I’ve only ever read of one (completely) unverified testimonial of their use in a shooting. I’ll try to to find it and post it.
ETA: I am mistaken. It was a Controlled Fracturing round. https://youtu.be/FWgXc9L9vx0 Top comment from a poster (personal testimonial). Whether true or not, I cannot tell you. |
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Posted: 8/13/2023 5:49:50 PM EDT
[#46]
Quote HistoryQuoted: FTM ... Lol |
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Posted: 8/13/2023 6:03:09 PM EDT
[#47]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Some copper monolithic bullets seem like they might actually make a good choice for hunting use against large animals like moose and grizzly bears, but I'm talking about FTM bullets as used for personal defense against two-legged critters. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: I know of guides and hunters in Alaska that use Underwood loads of these, +P, on their hunts/guides - penetration is why. I wouldn't use them for self defense against any 2 legged or smaller 4 legged critter Deer-sized or smaller, but for bears, moose, anything with thick skin, thick skulls, or lots of distance between the outer dermis and inner CNS...their penetration should get you there with less effort than a heavy hardcast would need to get there too. Not to mention less wear and tear on you...a good bit less thump than a heavy hardcast to get the same penetration. Some copper monolithic bullets seem like they might actually make a good choice for hunting use against large animals like moose and grizzly bears, but I'm talking about FTM bullets as used for personal defense against two-legged critters. Uh, yeah, that's what I'm talking about. It even says in the description that it's just like their "Xtreme Penetration" rounds. It's functionally identical with minor differences in the shape of the nose...and of course it's branding. They're basically interchangeable. If you read the description on Lehigh's web site the descriptions of both bullet types say the same things just with slightly different phrasing. Unless you're one of those who thinks that just because the name changes and they make the nose a little concave instead of flat that it drastically alters how the round functions when they're travelling the same speed... |
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Posted: 8/13/2023 6:08:52 PM EDT
[#48]
High-velocity, light for caliber pistol bullets have been a running scam going back to the 70s.
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Posted: 8/13/2023 6:09:17 PM EDT
[#49]
I carry the XD 90gr +P rounds. Good performance against barriers and comparable to HP in every meat/gel test to date.
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Posted: 8/13/2023 6:11:28 PM EDT
[#50]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Uh, yeah, that's what I'm talking about. It even says in the description that it's just like their "Xtreme Penetration" rounds. It's functionally identical with minor differences in the shape of the nose...and of course it's branding. They're basically interchangeable. If you read the description on Lehigh's web site the descriptions of both bullet types say the same things just with slightly different phrasing. Unless you're one of those who thinks that just because the name changes and they make the nose a little concave instead of flat that it drastically alters how the round functions when they're travelling the same speed... Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Quoted: I know of guides and hunters in Alaska that use Underwood loads of these, +P, on their hunts/guides - penetration is why. I wouldn't use them for self defense against any 2 legged or smaller 4 legged critter Deer-sized or smaller, but for bears, moose, anything with thick skin, thick skulls, or lots of distance between the outer dermis and inner CNS...their penetration should get you there with less effort than a heavy hardcast would need to get there too. Not to mention less wear and tear on you...a good bit less thump than a heavy hardcast to get the same penetration. Some copper monolithic bullets seem like they might actually make a good choice for hunting use against large animals like moose and grizzly bears, but I'm talking about FTM bullets as used for personal defense against two-legged critters. Uh, yeah, that's what I'm talking about. It even says in the description that it's just like their "Xtreme Penetration" rounds. It's functionally identical with minor differences in the shape of the nose...and of course it's branding. They're basically interchangeable. If you read the description on Lehigh's web site the descriptions of both bullet types say the same things just with slightly different phrasing. Unless you're one of those who thinks that just because the name changes and they make the nose a little concave instead of flat that it drastically alters how the round functions when they're travelling the same speed... The XP behaves very differently the the XD bullets in tests so the subtle differences have drastically different results. |
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