Posted: 12/16/2004 12:33:02 PM EDT
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This is in continuation of what I IM'ed you about... So, I asked you if you were a Christian and you said, "yes, but not like most." So I'm curious as to how you consider yourself different from most other Christians. I'm also interested in what your thoughts are on Revelation and "The End Times" Anyone else can feel free to join in, but I'd ask that you try and keep this civil and not turn it into a flame war. Also, I have no problem with discussing other viewpoints on the meaning of Revelation and "The End Times", but if that viewpoint is merely an attack on Christianity or to try and prove to me that The Bible/Christianity is false, don't bother...I won't change my mind 
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Unfortunately, Reveations has become a dsitraction (our fault, NOT God's) for specualtion by Christians - ALL of whom have NOT mastered the clear, unambiguous direct and unmistakeable commands in Scripture. |
I'm not sure I'm clear on what you're saying here. Are you saying we shouldn't speculate as to what Revelation means? I certainly agree that we haven't mastered the commands in scripture. Nobody, especially including myself, is without sin. |
It is, of course, Revelation, not Revelations.  What is it the Revelation of? |
The Apostle John :D I agree with garandman that an inordinate amount of some Christian's study time is spent on eschatology,that could be better spent in other study. However, since I am guilty of wasting my time in a multitude of ways, I remain generally silent on the subject. |
 Try again, old buddy. Hint: Read the first verse.
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"Of" "To" I get so mixed up with these prepositions. Good point,and I stand corrected! My comments on eschatology still stand (as opinions which thankfully are subjective!) Edit: My comments on eschatology refer mainly to the isogetical interpretations of it, not to the actual reading of the Revelation of Jesus Christ (as told to John )
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Go to the end of the book. Its says "If any man adds to this book, I'll add the plagues listed in this book to him. if any man takes away from the book, I'll take his name out of the book of life." Rev. 22:18-19 When we authoritatively, or specualtively, assign meanings to Revelation, we risk the damnations specified above. The MOST that alot of people know about Revelation is what some televangelist has told them. its NOT some place I want to go. Why would we go there, when there are clear, unambiguous commands readily available for us?? |
Well, until my old buddy Liberty shows up, I'll add a little. When we understand what Revelation is, we can better understand what it is for. It is the "Revelation of Jesus Christ". This shows us that it is not (as most people believe) primarily a book of eschatology (the study of future events), but a Book to Reveal Jesus Christ. And how does it "reveal" Him? Many non-Christians say something like, "Well, if God would just prove Himself, I would believe. He needs to do something to prove that He is really God". That is what God does with this Book. He tells us what will take place in the future. It is a thing which only He can do. No other religious book tries to predict what will happen in the future. And good thing, as they don't know.  But God does. He had His authors predict hundreds of events, and every one has come to pass, just as He said it would. We therefore have confidence that the future events in Revelation will come to pass, just as He said that they will. And thereby, He "reveals" Who He is....He is the One and Only God. The only One that knows all events, even future ones before they happen. |
So what would the point of Revelation be then? Edit: Nevermind, I see Old_Painless's post above |
Best guess? So that we'll know what we are seeing WHEN we see it. Its the Christians assurance, while the WHOLE WORLD (including the big blue orb) is quite literall "going to hell" , that God is still in control. |
Thank you. Makes sense. I'd still like to know Liberty86's thoughts. |
"Most" Christians go to church once a week, and forget it. Others go five times a week. When I want to be educated in scripture, I do it by myself. (Notice I didn't say "alone"), or maybe sometimes with one or two others. For me, the supernatural is real. I have met demons in the flesh, and met "men", who knowingly further Satans goals. I have seen with my own eyes, (Much like Thomas), supernatural miracles, and events. I have personally experienced the POWER of the Holy Spirit. I ain't talking pie in the sky here, it's real, and it's now. For too many Christians, the supernatural is just lip service, they REALLY don't believe it. THAT is why they will be tested in the tribulation soon to come. Many will/are falling away.
For those of us not of THIS world, the "End Times", will be a beginning!!!!  My old friend painless has nailed it, as usual. It is the Revelation of the Christ, but also MUCH more.... It shows us, that Jesus ain't gonna be Mr. cutsy-puffy on His return. As OP said, the scriptures prove themselves by fulfilled prophecy. The last book tells us what will happen at the close of the Church age. It tells of the Hebrews wandering and a chosen number of them saved.... It tells the Saints what to look for. (Ya, the saints will be here until it's over. Their faith must be tested.....) 1 ¶ And there appeared a great wonder in heaven; a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars: 2 And she being with child cried, travailing in birth, and pained to be delivered. 3 And there appeared another wonder in heaven; and behold a great red dragon, having seven heads and ten horns, and seven crowns upon his heads. 4 And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth: and the dragon stood before the woman which was ready to be delivered, for to devour her child as soon as it was born. 5 And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne. 6 And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and threescore days. 7 And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels, 8 And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven. 9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him. 10 And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night. 11 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death. 12 ¶ Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time. 13 And when the dragon saw that he was cast unto the earth, he persecuted the woman which brought forth the man child. 14 And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent. 15 And the serpent cast out of his mouth water as a flood after the woman, that he might cause her to be carried away of the flood. 16 And the earth helped the woman, and the earth opened her mouth, and swallowed up the flood which the dragon cast out of his mouth. 17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ. I enjoyed our exchange by IM, but as I said, I prefer posts. I ain't the fastest typer, ((two fingers), so if I gotta type, I'd rather it be seen...... Yer a good man..... Seek, and ye shall find....  |
Ask, and it shall be given, seek, and ye shall find, knock, and it shall be opened unto you... Hang in there, old buddy. We may not agree 100% on all doctrine, but I plan on walking the streets of gold with you. Maybe sooner than many think.
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I will see you there, my friend. YOU, are NOT one of those I am speaking of..... BTW, I enjoy being on your mail list, to see your latest shenanigans..... |
Why would the rest of the bible be so hard to understand, if written by the hand of God? More specificly, why do many make the arguement that you have to take the bible at face value. Yet then haven't "mastered" the clear, unambiguous direct and unmistakeable commands found in said scripture? It would be hard to take at face value for many (say the retarded, or those who lack basic comprehension skills), if they couldn't understand it right? |
Ya'll will get invites over to my place. Hopefully, we'll all be on fairly close streets, maybe within walking distance.
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Thanks, Red_Beard. You made me break out my Bible. There have been whole books written about prophesy and its fullfillment. There are hundreds of examples. One of my favorites is from Isaiah. Isaiah 45:1 Thus saith the LORD to his anointed, to Cyrus, whose right hand I have holden, to subdue nations before him; and I will loose the loins of kings, to open before him the two leaved gates; and the gates shall not be shut; God says that his "servant" Cyrus will be used by God to accomplish His purpose. At the time of this book (Isaiah) no one knew who "Cyrus" was. We know, from history, that it was Cyrus the Great that conqured Babylon. God knew his name before he was born. In another verse, God says: 45:4 For Jacob my servant's sake, and Israel mine elect, I have even called thee by thy name: I have surnamed thee, though thou hast not known me. Here God clearly states that Cyrus will "not know" Him, i.e., Cyrus will be an unbeliever. But God still calls him His "servant", because God will use Cyrus to serve His purposes. Even though Isaiah was written many years before Cyrus the Great was born, God knew what he would do. And, it came to pass, just like every other prophesy. God is never surprised by what happens. He is never amazed. He never learns anything. He is Omniscient, all knowing. |
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This thread is a breath of fresh air, its nice to see people discussing something in a civil manner. Old_Painless, Is there any other scriptures you could suggest I read to learn more about prophecies coming true? As I have not opened a Bible in many years and wouldn’t know where to begin. |
I suggest that you look here: www.thebereancall.org/ Dave Hunt has several books about prophesy listed on that site. Look in the right hand column under "Prophesy". It is a great area of study. Good hunting.
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Thanks O_P
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I love studying the prophecies of the Bible, it is a very sobering thing to realize that they support the fact that we have a God not subject to limitations that we are subject to, such as time. I believe the Bible shows that God dwells outside of time, and He has given us instruction and proof through the Bible. One fascinating study to look at is the prophecy of the 70 weeks of Daniel. I can't begin to do it justice, so I post the following links as a potential place to start. www.khouse.org/articles/prophetic/20041101-552.html The audio files are really interesting if you have the time ==> www.khouse.org/6640/prophetic/BP006.html There are many views out there, but I really enjoy listening to this guy. |
I appreciate your input Liberty86. The part I highlighted in red above really hit me between the eyes. That's kind of what I was looking for. I must be honest, I am lucky if I get to church once a week. I'd like to think that a big part of that is that I have been pretty disappointed in the way the church has gone nowdays, but I am sure that a lot of it is because I am just lazy. I'm working on that and trying to become a better at that, but I don't want to fall into the trap that I see a lot of Christians fall into, and that is that they base how "good" of a Christian they are on how many times they go to church. It is interesting that you have seen the supernatural things that you have. I certainly don't think that I just pay lip service to it, but I can also say that there have not been that many times in my life that I have seen anything supernatural. The one instance that stands out in my mind is a dream that I had a couple of years ago, but I'd rather not share that for everyone to read here. Lets just say that the dream left me with no doubt about the power of God, and no doubt about the supernatural... |
What is this mailing list? If I could be included, I might be interested in being a part of it. |
Do not allow yourself to "feel" guilty about your church attendence. That's the enemy trying to separate you from Truth. Church is for many, and there are good ones. But the Body of Christ has NO boundry. The important thing, is washing in the Word, and Prayer. You don't need others for that. The Word is crucial. Our Lord told us, he would send the comforter and teacher to us. He don't lie... It is that same Teacher that will give you your mission(s)..
It is the lifestyle I chose from a young age. My first revelation was at age 12, although I didn't realize it then. I never chased worldly rich's. (well, maybe except firearms...  )
NO doubt, is what it takes!!!! I try not to compare myself to other Christians....... When we compare ourselves to others, we are judging our INSIDES, by their OUTSIDES...............When we do that honestly, we lose, almost every time. Your father, is my former comrade-in-arms, tell him hello for me, and tell him I said he did a good job with his son, and he will be/is blessed, for that!! Christians will be in the furnace, soon. HE will be there with us, as always. Be faithful, be strong, remember you are a warrior. Endure to the end.......... |