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Wow, Federal prisons have www access now? Our tax dollars are work. |
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Moderation is for monks. RAH
HEY YOU WASHINGTONIANS! Come to YOUR hometown forum http://ar15.com/forums/forum.html?b=8&f=15 |
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Isaiah 16:11 "Wherefore my bowels shall sound like an harp..."
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It's a joke NAM, get over it.
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Moderation is for monks. RAH
HEY YOU WASHINGTONIANS! Come to YOUR hometown forum http://ar15.com/forums/forum.html?b=8&f=15 |
Our tax dollars "are" work? I hope you're not referring to government schools, 'cause we evidently did not get our money's worth when it came to your education. BTW, don't think I'm a candidate for jail due solely to my debate of an otherwise clear law. I know, it was just a joke. |
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"So remember kids, playing Hitler in school, isn't cool"
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Are we still ?
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<font size=3> No apology is necessary among friends</font id=purple>
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So typos are equivalent to a lack of education now huh? OK, I can play.
You may want to correct this one then.
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Moderation is for monks. RAH
HEY YOU WASHINGTONIANS! Come to YOUR hometown forum http://ar15.com/forums/forum.html?b=8&f=15 |
Now you're catching on. Sounds kinda stupid, huh? I was hoping you would see my point. That sounds rather ingorant. Sorta like intimating that someone could go to jail for debating the meaning of a statute; especially when he advises ppl to "be on the safe side" regardless of their position on the meaning of plain words. |
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"So remember kids, playing Hitler in school, isn't cool"
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Actually, the horsey ain't dead yet. |
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"So remember kids, playing Hitler in school, isn't cool"
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Steve,
I never said putting an M16 carrier in an AR ws illegal. I do it all the time, I prefer M16 carriers. My original post (prison) was intended to make fun of those that trumpeted the"use M16 parts go to jail" line early on. I think we got off on a tangent and somehow on opposite sides of a line that I know doesn't exist. I'm on your side pard. |
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Moderation is for monks. RAH
HEY YOU WASHINGTONIANS! Come to YOUR hometown forum http://ar15.com/forums/forum.html?b=8&f=15 |
Shit! Sorry. Nevermind . . . |
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"So remember kids, playing Hitler in school, isn't cool"
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Ha, and they told me those human relations courses would have no relation to real life.
From Chapter 1, "Perception Checking." |
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Moderation is for monks. RAH
HEY YOU WASHINGTONIANS! Come to YOUR hometown forum http://ar15.com/forums/forum.html?b=8&f=15 |
Steve... If I read your posts correclty the Bolt is a go.....Which I hole heartedly agree with......I had no idea there were so many ATF poster children cowering in this thread with the M-16 bolt. Holy crap.
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LOL. I think it's more that there is an incredible amount of misinformation about what the law actually is and it spreads like a disease. Without those defective conditions mentioned by Cheif Nixon, there is no violation of the law. You have to remember however that I am arguing legal points. My practical advice is simply not to do it, just to be on the safe side of things. |
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"So remember kids, playing Hitler in school, isn't cool"
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Ah, sounds like a post I made last night about how bad information is military manuals gets disseminated. Later when the info is challenged the manual itself is used as proof of the info's validity. As you pointed out, this cycle is apparent in Bushmaster's policy on selling M16 parts to non licensees. To clarify, we were talking about the M16 carrier right? |
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Moderation is for monks. RAH
HEY YOU WASHINGTONIANS! Come to YOUR hometown forum http://ar15.com/forums/forum.html?b=8&f=15 |
Yes. |
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"So remember kids, playing Hitler in school, isn't cool"
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I wouldn't want to be on the 3-4 year test list. I would not add any parts that were questionable. But then I don't speed in school zones, I know, I know, I'm a pus.
WOW I've got a four letter dictionary too, can I can I be a staff member? Monkey see Monkey do. Mike see Mike do PEAX [edited:for anti-troll compliance] |
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Thanks for screwing me armalite.
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I'm glad you have a dictionary, but you need to work on proof reading- and there's no need to capitalize the second "Monkey". Also, try and get past page 2 next time, m-kay? BTW, don't troll in this thread or anywhere else for that matter. Consider this a warning. |
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"So remember kids, playing Hitler in school, isn't cool"
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[Reanimator] This thread will never die! [/Reanimator]
This topic will allways be of interest, and allways a point on which there will be differing opinions. I would almost recommend a FAQ for this - but people would not agree with the content unless it came directly from ATF, and even then not everyone would be happy. |
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anything less than 800rnds wasn't worth getting the gun dirty.
April 6, 2006 - I can wait. |
I have not went through all seven pages of replies to this topic but from my own experience I can tell you, that back in the mid 90's I asked one of the gun dealers at my local gun shop if it was illegal to install a M16 complete bolt carrier assembly or even a M16 selector in a AR15 rifle.
The gun dealer told me that the local ATF office was located across the street in the Federal building and that ATF agents were always coming in to shoot the breeze and that the next time they came in he would ask them. A few days later he called me and said he asked the ATF agents who came in my questions. They first asked it one part by itself would make the gun fire more than one round with a single pull of the trigger, he told them no! They then asked if both parts were installed in the gun would the gun then fire more than one round with a single pull of the trigger, he told them he did not think so. They then wanted to see what the two M16 parts looks like compared to the AR15 versions, he showed them pictures and they then said if the installation of one or both parts did not make the gun fire more than one round with a single pull of the trigger, then I did not have anything to worry about and I would be wasting my and their time asking further questions about it! Then again I did not get it in writing but just my own experience! |
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I tihnk you've got the gist of it. The law says it must not fire more than one round per operation fo the trigger. Bolt carrier and M16 selector? PRovided those are the only two M16 parts, nope. One shot per pull of trigger. However, all those parts with an M16 disconnector, and you have an unsafe, possibly illegal situation. i would go for the bolt carrier, but stay away from the selector. However legal M16 parts may be, I would avoid them unless you have a legal reason for doing otherwise. Soem people prefer the M16 carrier for several reason. However, i can't think of a practical reason for wanting an M16 selector. |
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Isaiah 16:11 "Wherefore my bowels shall sound like an harp..."
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From my limited experience I have found that any rifle that ATF sends out for testing results in them finding that it fires full auto. They will do whatever it takes to arrange the parts to make it fire more than one shot with a single trigger pull. If it requires removing the disconnector and such then they will do it and report the results. You will then have to go to the extra effort to defend these findings in court or at a minimum lose the firearm by confiscation.
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The religious right is wrong!
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This says it well I think.
Chief, Firearms and Explosives Division "Of course, if the AR-15 rifle no longer functions automatically after removal of the auto-sear, the rifle no longer constitutes an NFA weapon." [Signed] [Jack B. Patterson] From page - 4 - of this link--> [url]www-2.cs.cmu.edu/afs/cs/user/wbardwel/public/nfalist/atf_letter35.txt [/url] Posted - 12/31/2002 : 16:43:46 Dano523 Team AR15.Com Registered: Mar 2001 -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- |
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Many of you are somewhat right it stating that BATF citations are not legally binding. Only an actual decision in a court case can prove the legality or illegality of the M-16 bolt carrier in an AR-15. However, I am not interest in speculation or "counting the number of angels on the head of a pin". To me if the BATF believes it is illegal, I am not going to fight them on something as unimportant as a bolt carrier. It isn't worth the possible hastle. Now if the BATF claims my ARs are illegal then that is worth fighting. Philip [url]http://www.atf.gov/pub/fire-explo_pub/complete.htm[/url] It is a long document. Use your browsers "FIND" or "SEARCH" feature for the following phrase: AR-15 TYPE RIFLES You will find this ruling. " ATF has encountered various AR-15 type assault rifles such as those manufactured by Colt, E.A. Company, SGW, Sendra and others, which have been assembled with fire control components designed for use in M16 machineguns. The vast majority of these rifles which have been assembled with an M16 bolt carrier, hammer, trigger, disconnector and selector will fire automatically merely by manipulation of the selector or removal of the disconnector. Many of these rifles using less than the five M16 parts listed above also will shoot automatically by manipulation of the selector or removal of the disconnector. Any weapon which shoots automatically, more than one shot, without manual reloading, by a single function of the trigger, is a machinegun as defined in 26 U.S.C. 5845(b), the National Firearms Act (NFA). In addition, the definition of a machinegun also includes any combination of parts from which a machinegun may be assembled, if such parts are in possession or under the control of a person. An AR-15 type assault rifle which fires more than one shot by a single function of the trigger is a machinegun under the NFA. Any machinegun is subject to the NFA and the possession of an unregistered machinegun could subject the possessor to criminal prosecution. Additionally, these rifles could pose a safety hazard in that they may fire automatically without the user being aware that the weapon will fire more than one shot with a single pull of the trigger. In order to avoid violations of the NFA, M16 hammers, triggers, disconnectors, selectors and bolt carriers must not be used in assembly of AR-15 type semiautomatic rifles, unless the M16 parts have been modified to AR-15 Model SP1 configuration. Any AR-15 type rifles which have been assembled with M16 internal components should have those parts removed and replaced with AR-15 Model SP1 type parts which are available commercially. The M16 components also may be modified to AR-15 Model SP1 configuration. It is important to note that any modification of the M16 parts should be attempted by fully qualified personnel only. Should you have any questions concerning AR-15 type rifles with M16 parts, please contact your nearest ATF Criminal Enforcement Office. Our telephone numbers are listed in the "United States Government" section of your telephone directory under the "United States Treasury Department."" |
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"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants. It is its natural manure." --Tom Jefferson
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In reading this thread, Steve-in-VA is right as usual... He only makes a mistake every know and then!!! ;-)
I have a letter from BATF coming to me in regards to FA bolt carrier assembly in semi-auto rifle. Verbally I was told it is fine from Stirling Nixon of BATF tech branch. We also talked about full-auto parts in semi-auto lower. Stirling also mentione dthat having FA parts are FINE , as long as it will NOT fire FA. He said this has been the BATF contention for as long he has ben around (16 years). Example he gave was, If all FA parts except selector were installed in semi-auto lower and the selector was a SA selector, that would be legal, as it would not fire FA. That example matches the letter referenced in a very early mesasge. I asked him to update their FAQ on the BATF website and he said that he would have his computer person look into doing this. Let's hope it happens. |
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That is a little misleading. The auto sear (wether a RLL, RDIAS, or actual burst or auto sear) is the machinegun with regards to the internal parts. The selector only limits the movement of the sear. If you put a M-16 selector in a gun with all the M-16 parts WITHOUT an auto sear of some type, the gun will only fire semi if the selector is in any position other than safe (this is, of coures taking into account that all the parts are in spec). |
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NRA Certified Instructor
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I got a "response", but it was basically off-topic. Did not address my specifics and just repeated the first letter, assuming, I guess, that all ARs have defective parts. I give up; I think they're sick of my inquiries. I'm waiting to see if someone else gets one who has not worn out his/her welcome. |
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"So remember kids, playing Hitler in school, isn't cool"
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Not quite, if you have all M16 parts in the lower minus the auto sear and you rotate the selector to the AUTO position the hammer will follow the bolt carrier closed after the first shot. In some case you can get doubles, triples etc. Usually you just wind up with the hammer down on a loaded chamber after the first shot. The selector doesn't limit the movement of the disconnector (not sear) in FA mode it pushes the disconnector out of engagement with the hammer. In normal operation the auto sear acts as a delay on the hammer giving the carrier assy enough time to close and lock. In FA operation firing ceases with trigger release. The sear face of the trigger, not the disco, catches the hammer on trigger release. The disco only operates in SA fire. It's only got to double once to be an MG. In the case of auto sears (the real ones used in M16s) they are not MGs, the lowers are. I can buy auto sears by the bushel in OR over the counter. Don't dare drill that hole in the lower tho. LL and DIAS are "MG"s as you stated. ATF's newest stand on FA FCG parts is very interesting if true. I have an article from a late 80's edition of American Rifleman that quotes an "open letter" from former BATF director Steven Higgins stating that FA parts "must not be used" to "avoid possible violations of the NFA." We've heard that line before tho. It goes on to state that any AR-15s assembled with M16 components should have those parts removed and replaced with AR-15 parts either obtained commercially or modified from the M16 parts. I think this ties back into the tired old note from them regarding bolt carriers. |
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Moderation is for monks. RAH
HEY YOU WASHINGTONIANS! Come to YOUR hometown forum http://ar15.com/forums/forum.html?b=8&f=15 |
This is going to be the longest lasting thread on these forums and people still want to argue over it
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www.Quarterbore.com
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There's that word "possible" again. Well, I guess it's "possible" that the Full Auto Ferry will magically turn any AR-15 lower into a FA MG if an M16 B/C is intalled. Their admonitions in this regard are based on caution that the law could be broken, not that the law is broken per se. "If you have a worn selector or some other defect AND you have a FA B/C, you could have a double-fire in your AR, so don't do it" . . . that's the line of thinking. Notice I'm actually giving them credit for for the ability to read and understand a very clear federal code section. They just don't want to admit the obvious so they hide behind caveats of what "could" happen in a defective part ridden AR. I don't play that shit. I will call a spade a spade. However, in the end, I make the same cautionary admonition and advise not to do it. Accordingly, this whole discussion, for me anyway, is academic. |
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"So remember kids, playing Hitler in school, isn't cool"
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And if you have a worn hammer and trigger with an "civilian" bolt carrier, it can double, and you STILL have an MG by their standards. So it doesn't really matter what you have in it. More political and legal double speak. |
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NRA Certified Instructor
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I've read this whole thread. I reviewed all and read the links. I could have done without all of m60308nato's nonsense, as that was an unnecessary diversion and waste of time for him and for those that were forced to patronize him out of the genuine pursuit of truth.
As a lawyer AND a Risk Manager for a major corporation (one of the biggest in the US) it's clear Steve-in-VA is right, correct, on all counts. Period. There are plenty that still believe the world is flat and that man has never been to the moon. Suffer the fools. |
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I'm still convinced that you will go to Hell if you do it.
But, I have M-16 carriers in my ARs anyways. |
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You're going to jail Tweak! |
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Well then, smart guy, if the world isn't flat, what is it then? Wait, we've been to the moon? Who? When? |
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I'll see you there. |
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Well *has* anyone gone to jail for havine an M16 BC in their AR15 rifle?
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If the "hooded" firing pin is the issue, then what of RRA's "new" enhanced BC that does indeed shroud the firing pin? Are these illegel? If not the difference between these and true M16 bolts is simply the added weight at the end of the BC. /S2 |
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"Son we live in a world that has walls, and those walls have to be guarded by men with guns..."
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Been there, wasn't impressed. Steve, I agree completely, that's why I included their language (the "possible" and "must not") in the post. I feel they vaguely word their notices intentionally. "Must not" does not equal "do not". SULACO, The area around the firing pin has nothing to do with FA capability. FA is related solely to the rear of the carrier and the length of the ledge there. |
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Moderation is for monks. RAH
HEY YOU WASHINGTONIANS! Come to YOUR hometown forum http://ar15.com/forums/forum.html?b=8&f=15 |
Understood. My question was not so much about the ability for a user to intentionally make/convert an AR to FA, as it was, making the point, that if ATF is going to point out that an AR w/ a shrouded FP "may" go double etc. when the Disconnectors broken, fouled etc. Then, following that same logic, they would classify the RRA E Carrier as borderline also. Because though, it does not have the longer "shelf" at its rear, it does have the shrouded FP featue. /S2 |
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"Son we live in a world that has walls, and those walls have to be guarded by men with guns..."
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the piece will double as often (MRBF) with a shrouded carrier as a slotted one if the disco fails. Many companies have sold shrouded carriers before RRA tried their marketing magic, all were careful to mill away the rear ledge rendering the carrier semi only.
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Moderation is for monks. RAH
HEY YOU WASHINGTONIANS! Come to YOUR hometown forum http://ar15.com/forums/forum.html?b=8&f=15 |
WOW, just got doen reading all 8 pages and my eyes are sore, this thread has been going for 21 months, this has to be a new record havent
Thats my two cents. Good luck to everyone, I will see if I can get a hard copy of a clear response to our question. How many military people are here, seems like quite a few...... |
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Regardless of a very clear federal code section, I would not even put one M16 part in your AR. If you do, make sure it will not enable your rifle to double-fire or fire FA. And I have doubts about your "doubt"> |
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"So remember kids, playing Hitler in school, isn't cool"
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Who sells the RRA shrouded carrier? |
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"You mean they had canoes back then?" - Miss Magnum, Bulletfest 2004, speaking of the 18th century Indians
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I've got a buddy who retired after 22 years in SF. He thought the same thing. His rifle now belongs to the local SWAT team. ETA, QS, RRA has them. RRA |
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Moderation is for monks. RAH
HEY YOU WASHINGTONIANS! Come to YOUR hometown forum http://ar15.com/forums/forum.html?b=8&f=15 |
The auto-sear is NOT the machine gun according to Sterling. The lower with the drilled auto-sear is the machine gun. Example: 5 stripped lowers with the hole drilled is the machine gun. 10 auto-sears are just parts... |
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He said he would get me a letter out. I have a valid business reason to get a letter. Nothing in hand yet, so still waiting. |
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Legalities aside, I've been often pondering this question. What is the benefit to function/safety/reliability/whatever by putting an M-16 bolt into an AR-15? Is it just that rebellious feeling of actually having an M-16 bolt in an AR or is there a sound reason as to function? I'm really interested in knowing this. I'm hoping for an indepth reply as to functional benefit.
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"We can't be so fixated on our desire to preserve the rights of ordinary Americans ..." -Bill Clinton, Assclown. |
budam. please post the letter when you get it!
I'm sure someone who knows better than me can tell you in a more in-depth manner, but I've heard that competitive shooters like the heaviness of the F/A bolt. Otherwise I know of no other benifit. |
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"So remember kids, playing Hitler in school, isn't cool"
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Prevents the hammer from snagging the firing pin on the battery stroke. Often seen on rifles with "trigger jobs" that allow the hammer to sit too high. Can also be a matter of pin locations and height of the carrier raceway.
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Moderation is for monks. RAH
HEY YOU WASHINGTONIANS! Come to YOUR hometown forum http://ar15.com/forums/forum.html?b=8&f=15 |
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