Posted: 6/22/2005 8:32:19 AM EDT
|
Section III. M9 Pistol and 9mm Ammunition General discussion: The assessment team was fortunate enough to be able to interview a military police unit to gain insight on their experience with the M9 pistol. No engagements were reported with the M9, but many MPs as well as other soldiers had definite opinions of the performance they expect from a pistol. The M9’s magazine capacity was considered to be a strong point. Soldiers liked the ease of maintenance and overall durability of the weapon. The fixed sights were described as a positive feature in that any soldier who picks up an M9 can be confident that the sights are zeroed for that weapon. However, ammunition magazine feed problems were identified as a major deficiency. Unless resolved this defect has effectively deadline an entire weapon system in the AOR leaving many soldiers unarmed. Most soldiers described the desired effect from a pistol as stopping a person at close range from continuing to advance. Exsanguinations (bleed out) were not considered to be an acceptable method of defeating a close-in target. Physically knocking the target down was the expected result. While difficult to quantify, soldiers have noticed that a pistol elicits a quicker response from the local populace than an assault weapon when conducting Peace Enforcement Operations. The feeling is that locals trust that a US soldier won’t shoot them with a rifle but may very well shoot them with a pistol. Ammunition used for the M9 Pistol is the M882 Ball cartridge. Muzzle velocity of the projectile is approximately 375 meters/sec. It delivers 569.5 Newton meters of muzzle energy. Maximum range of the cartridge is 1,800 meters. Maximum effective range is 50 meters. Issues raised by soldiers are detailed below: Section III. a. M9 Pistol Issue #1: Magazines Discussion: Every M9 equipped soldier reported problems with the magazine spring. This problem requires urgent attention. When fully loaded with 15 rounds of 9mm ammunition for more than a short while, the spring fails to exert sufficient force to feed the rounds. A loaded magazine can be inverted and the rounds will fall out when shaken. Of note was the fact that minimal issues were cited on magazines produced by Beretta. After return to CONUS discussions with weapons expertise revealed that this issue is unique to this theatre with its extremely fine dust and grit. The fine particles get into the magazine and create a binding situation for the stacked 9mm ammunition. Stretching the springs actually makes the problem worse. The AOR has been notified of the problem and a recommendation for frequent cleaning of the magazine without lubrication and only loading 8 rounds of ammunition was provided. An investigation into new springs/magazines is already underway. Recommendations: Issue Beretta produced magazines as part of RFI. Complete the investigation of root cause of failures and expedite implementation of a fix to the field. Issue #2: Basis of Issue Discussion: Soldiers in many different unit types and MOS’s stated a desire to be equipped with a side arm as a secondary weapon. Infantry units were virtually unanimous on this issue. The merits of the M9 Pistol were subject to debate, but all soldiers agreed that a sidearm was an important capability that they lacked. They believe a pistol is a better weapon than a high-powered assault weapon for room clearing. Soldiers stated a pistol would facilitate personnel searches, a task frequently conducted during OIF by all types of soldiers. Soldiers desire a pistol to clear confined spaces such as attics, crawl spaces, sewers, and tunnels. Drivers would like to return fire with a pistol while continuing to operate the vehicle to exit the hostile area. Soldiers would rather use a pistol as immediate back up to a malfunction of their primary weapon rather than attempting to reduce a stoppage in the heat of the fight. Recommendations: Increase the basis of issue for pistols to include all soldiers. Issue #3: Tactical Holster Discussion: Most soldiers purchased commercial holsters rather than use the issue holster. The most common trait of these commercial holsters is a thigh mounted position. Multiple magazine storage was also a common feature. Recommendations: Accelerate fielding of the type classified M9 holster extender and/or authorize a variety of commercial holsters as Class IX Additional Authorization List items as part of RFI. Figure 43. Black Hawk tactical holster is the preferred holster. Figure 44. Modified M9 holster with magazine pouch attached. Figure 46. Black Hawk tactical vest procured by soldiers (MPs). Issue #4: Illuminated Sights Discussion: Soldiers would like to be able to align the M9’s sights in low light level conditions such as darkened interiors. There are a wide variety of commercial solutions on the market and soldiers would like the Army to provide them with equipment as good as what’s available to any terrorist with a credit card. Recommendations: Retrofit the M9 Pistol with illuminated sights. Issue #5: Integrated Laser Aim Lights Discussion: Some soldiers have fitted commercial laser aim lights to their M9 Pistols. Their experience is that when a belligerent local civilian sees a red dot on his chest, he tends to become much more compliant. While not employed against personnel during OIF, soldiers are confident that a laser aiming light would speed engagement time and improve shot placement for better effects. Recommendations: Retrofit the M9 Pistol with an integrated laser aim light. Issue #6: Blanks for Training Discussion: Though not required for OIF, soldiers that expressed the desire to carry a pistol as a secondary weapon recognized that its value is only as good as the training received. They felt that blank rounds or other engagement simulators were vital to exploiting the increased capability offered by a sidearm. Recommendations: The training and simulation community should include the M9 Pistol in any future development of force-on-force simulation. Section III. b. M9 Pistol 9-MM Ammunition Issue: Lethality Discussion: The units interviewed expressed concern about the lethality and apparent stopping power of the 9mm round. Overwhelmingly the units expressed the desire to have a round with the stopping capability of the .40 S&W or .45 caliber round; however, they like the high capacity magazine used with the M9. The majority of the comments for increased lethality were not based on unsuccessful engagements where they used the 9mm round but were primarily based on their perception and/or the experience of a few soldiers. Recommendations: Review the original lethality data from the development program and validate the performance of the current manufactured round. Conduct industry survey to determine if alternative designs exist that provide user expected performance within regulatory guidance. |
|
a recommendation for frequent cleaning of the magazine without lubrication and only loading 8 rounds of ammunition was provided in this case ALL of the benifits of going to the 9mm have just been shitcanned. they'd have been better off retaining the 1911 or another 45 varient. |
Perhaps Glock 17s would be better...
See above comment. |
a recommendation for frequent cleaning of the magazine without lubrication and only loading 8 rounds of ammunition was provided they are recommending only 8 rnds of 9mm per mag. that destroys the hicap issue |
no external safety no da action. glock will never be a contender for the us military. |
Perhaps this is a stupid question, but are our troops trained on the Mozambique Drill/Failure to stop drill? |
Yeah, you are probably right about that. Sigs are probably a good alternative... |
I think these guys are watching too many Hollywood movies, 44Rem Mag a la Clint Eastwood as Harry "Dirty Harry" Callahan. The problems with the Beretta 92/M9 magazine is already documented here on this board, as many people donated post-ban 10 round, & 15 round magazines, and money to procure the proper magazine for the USA troops. But I would wonder if the the mags were cleaned and relubed with some dry lube such as Miltec would that have helped, to bring the magazine to its full-capacity of 15 rounds. |
I don't understand something here.
This seems to suggest that a highly compressed mag spring doesn't have enough force to hold the rounds in place.
Wouldn't loading only 8 rounds, thus compressing the spring even less and reducing it's "spring power", be a worse situation? If a fully compressed spring can't feed or hold 15 rounds, why would a half-compressed spring be stronger? I'm not debating the article as it's been known that the contracted M9 mags (ala CheckMate) suck compared to factory. I just don't understand the reduced load working better thing. LL |
Wonder why that is? |
|
Checkmate is making new mags for the M9, it's a known problem (that should not have happened). EVERYONE will fine something to bitch about. The mags not working is a legitimate complaint. I doubt, however, that even if they were equiped with 1911's or Glock's complaints would stop. Av. |
It's unrealistic to expect something to literally knock someone off their feet, but 9mm ball ammo is a horrible round. If we would issue some good JHPs it might get some better opinions. Since we won't do that IMO we need to issue something in .40 or .45 |
Why are Glocks better? There is nothing wrong with the firearm itself. Mags are bad, it's a known problem, and the manufacturer is fixing it.  Av. |
Are they? Checkmate mags have been bad for a long time... On this site there have been drives for Beretta mags at least going back one year- possibly two. If they can't field a better quality replacement mag in a year - with all the real-world R&D going on in the sandboxes - they need to stop what they're doing. |
The problem with the Checkmate mags is caused from the parkerizing done to the inside of the mags. The inside walls of those mags are extremely rough and don't allow the rounds to slide up to the feedlips. I've heard springs have also been a problem, but that could be remedied easily too. I've sanded the inside of my Checkmate mags and have had no problems. I really hope they've fixed this issue by now.
|
The problem involves the magazine springs taking a set, and therefor losing their power. This problem is exacerbated when the springs are over stretched and replaced in the magazine. The reccomendation allows the spring to have far less constant pressure on it and therefore last longer before taking a set. |
WTF? Ben |
So, basically, were nowhere. The 45 legend lives on (based not so much on reality, but perception) and its the old horse race between mag capacity and bullet diameter. |
I actually thought this made some sense. The people see the soldiers with rifles all the time, yet they arent always shooting the people who the rifles are pointed at. When the pistol is used it stands out to them because it is a different weapon than that commonly used. I think that if everyone was issued the pistol and it was used more commonly this effect would probably disappear. |
rn45, M882 round is the US designation for 124gr. NATO. The mags in question are not Beretta USA or Beretta Italy Mags, but made under contract for DOD by Checkmate Industries out of Wyandoch(?), NY. This problem is well know and improvements have been made. Whether those improved mags are reaching the troops yet, I don't now. Mag problem aside, the biggest issue IMO is lack of handgun training. The report itself is at least 2, if not 3 years old. |
If the spring is being pushed to around its elastic limit and held there, it can begin to lose its recoverable energy (or the effective pressure and free standing height of the spring). Depending on its design, the side loads also increase as the spring is depressed within the magazine, and that can reduce the effective spring force by friction binding in one or more locations, as well as sidel loading the follower. Jim |
That's still not a Beretta problem - that's a DOD problem. If the DoD hasn't figured out how to improve the mags after all this time or has not mandated the changes to the magazine design, they need to get their collective heads out of eachothers asses and get it done. I still fail to see how Glock is better in this situation. Av. |
|
I actually like the M-9. Does the job I ask of it, it's the magazines I have issue with. Otherwise, it shoots when I want it to, and the bullet goes where I want it to. After a full year in country, my magazine (which I had to spend a lot of time on maintaining, I should admit), still fired flawlessly all 15 rounds when emptying out the rounds at the end of the tour. (Easier than turning the stuff in) NTM |
That's because the military bought crappy M9 magazines. Factory magazines clear that issue right up. I have personally sent (then)pre-bans overseas to some soldiers who reported no further complaints with the M9 after they got the mags. At least not reliability complaints. (Some people just hate the 9mm round) |
yes i know that. i've sent more than a few myself. the problem is it is going to take a long time to get good mags into the system for the end soldier. the end result is they have a neutered gun with low capacity and the problem will not be solved in the next 12 months. |
1: I gotcha now... Things work differently with the DoD. 2: Glock? Well aside from Paul Howe advocating Glock in his training, I am not a Glock fan. Give those boys SIGs. Or well built, NORMAL tolerance 1911s. |