Posted: 9/28/2009 9:04:23 AM EDT
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My first aviation YouTube video. I've got between 150 and 200 hours total time. I don't like flying over open water. And this is the worst turbulence I've encountered as of yet. I assume this would be considered "moderate" turbulence. I was able to maintain control of the airplane, but it took a lot of work and it felt like I was constantly making significant corrections. At one point, around 0:29 in the video, you can see the altitude shoot up 100 ft while the plane is in a slight nose-down attitude.
When I got out of the cloud, my heading was westbound instead of south-southeast and I had to completely reset my DG. It had deviated more than 100 degrees during the turbulence. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mBwzaBmwC0U ETA: To the experienced pilots: Would you consider this properly described as "Moderate" turbulence? I've never felt so much in a commercial flight, but although it felt like I'd lost control of the plane a couple times, the attitude indicator seemed to stay within 45 degrees of bank and 20 degrees of pitch. According to the FAR/AIM, it would be "severe" based on if the plane were big enough for people to walk in, that it would be impossible, but from what pilots have said, and what I've read, I would reserve the term "severe" to describe turbulence that results in constant unusual attitude recovery, et cetera. |
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When I got out of the cloud, my heading was westbound instead of south-southeast and I had to completely reset my DG. It had deviated more than 100 degrees during the turbulence.
Your heading was off by 100 degrees, or your DG had precessed by 100 degrees? If the second, I'd mark the plane as VFR only until it was fixed - IFR in turbulence on magnetic only doesn't strike me as safe or enjoyable. I've started my instrument training, but most of the planes I can rent (C172s) are of "questionable" condition in terms of quality-of-instruments. Which is to say, the instructors wouldn't take them into actual conditions. The gyros precess badly (they'll be off by 15-20 degrees after a few minutes of standard rate turns), half the planes only have one working radio stack, etc. There's only one I'd even consider taking into hard IFR, and I wouldn't want to be in actual conditions for terribly long with it, just due to how the rest of the fleet is maintained. |
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My first aviation YouTube video. I've got between 150 and 200 hours total time. I don't like flying over open water. And this is the worst turbulence I've encountered as of yet. I assume this would be considered "moderate" turbulence. I was able to maintain control of the airplane, but it took a lot of work and it felt like I was constantly making significant corrections. At one point, around 0:29 in the video, you can see the altitude shoot up 100 ft while the plane is in a slight nose-down attitude. When I got out of the cloud, my heading was westbound instead of south-southeast and I had to completely reset my DG. It had deviated more than 100 degrees during the turbulence. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n-_dlyumELE Damn, did ATC say anything to you? |
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My first aviation YouTube video. I've got between 150 and 200 hours total time. I don't like flying over open water. And this is the worst turbulence I've encountered as of yet. I assume this would be considered "moderate" turbulence. I was able to maintain control of the airplane, but it took a lot of work and it felt like I was constantly making significant corrections. At one point, around 0:29 in the video, you can see the altitude shoot up 100 ft while the plane is in a slight nose-down attitude. When I got out of the cloud, my heading was westbound instead of south-southeast and I had to completely reset my DG. It had deviated more than 100 degrees during the turbulence. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n-_dlyumELE Damn, did ATC say anything to you? I got a standard weather briefing before taking off. The briefer stated isolated showers and thunderstorms. I went inside, checked the weather and asked a jet pilot his opinion given my circumstances. He said it looked fine. I took off through a layer of clouds at 900 ft and broke through it without issue. Actually, that was one of the most beautiful things I've ever experienced as a pilot, skimming across the snow white layer of smooth clouds as I climbed. About 30 minutes into the flight, ATC notified me of moderate to severe precipitation over the next forty miles. I stated to ATC that I was an inexperienced IFR pilot and would prefer to maintain VFR if possible, being over the Gulf and all. They said they'd do their best to vector me through and allowed me to deviate to the east when I requested (hence why I wasn't directly on the filed heading). I told ATC that I had plenty of fuel and had no issues being vectored over land (hint, hint –– if it looks like things are gonna get bad, I'd like to be where I can land this thing). Just before entering the cloud, ATC hurriedly notified me that I could expect moderate to severe precipitation over the next six miles. "Oh shit!" (I thought it, didn't say it) I hit some precipitation; it was fine. I was worried about heavy rain and downdrafts that I wouldn't be able to maintain altitude through. At a rate of climb of only 500 or so ft/min and a plane that couldn't spare a lot of airspeed, I couldn't handle a 1000 ft/min downdraft for too long. Also, I have zero experience in dealing w/ potential icing scenarios. The cloud I went through was the least menacing looking one and I was through it in what looks like about 45 - 60 seconds and felt like about 10 minutes. Quoted:
When I got out of the cloud, my heading was westbound instead of south-southeast and I had to completely reset my DG. It had deviated more than 100 degrees during the turbulence.
Your heading was off by 100 degrees, or your DG had precessed by 100 degrees? If the second, I'd mark the plane as VFR only until it was fixed - IFR in turbulence on magnetic only doesn't strike me as safe or enjoyable. I've started my instrument training, but most of the planes I can rent (C172s) are of "questionable" condition in terms of quality-of-instruments. Which is to say, the instructors wouldn't take them into actual conditions. The gyros precess badly (they'll be off by 15-20 degrees after a few minutes of standard rate turns), half the planes only have one working radio stack, etc. There's only one I'd even consider taking into hard IFR, and I wouldn't want to be in actual conditions for terribly long with it, just due to how the rest of the fleet is maintained. The DG precessed very little throughout the flight. I'm guessing it became "uncaged" or "caged" in the turbulence. My heading was off as was my DG. I was focused on keeping the plane straight and level in the most severe parts of the turbulence (the parts where I didn't have the camera looking at anything worthwhile). My first indication that the DG was off was the screen on the GNS-430. |
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Based on what you said I would call that moderate to severe turbulence.
Moderate: Similar to light but of greater intensity, changes in altitude and or attitude occur but the a/c remains in positive control at all times. It usually caused variations in indicated airspeed. Severe: Large abrupt changes i altitude and or attitude. Large variations in indicated airspeed. A/C may be momentarily out of control. Based on the video I would call that moderate. Remember the whole purpose of the different definitions is so that you can file a PIREP. Just think about if you were flying along and ATC told you that another 172 had reported that kind of turbulence. I would try to get radar vectors around that cell just like you requested. Now atc has a heads up to help other folks. |
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I'd say "severe" if control was difficult. "Moderate" to me is just a very uncomfortable ride. "Extreme" would be no control.
But by the looks of that cloud I could tell you were going to get a workout. At 9000' I would not worry about it too much. That same picture at FL200 and above = turn. |
| That was pretty mild, when they are real dark almost black you just ask real kindly to Mr. ATC..." Any chance to deviate around some build ups?" ....if you ask real nice ATC will answer "Deviations approved" and then just get back to your heading when you are clear. When you get really tossed around don't fight the plane, just keep the wings level and try to keep some kind of heading, when you get out and clear go back to your assigned heading and altitude, if you get lifted or lowered 500 feet or more and pushed into a VFR altitude notify ATC, its happened to me a couple of times, as a plus they can notify other pilots that the ride thru your route is choppy. |
| The severity depends a lot on what type A/C you are flying. Remember "wing loading"? Big fat slow wings are affected much more than a nice dinky MU-2 with a wing loading closer to a Learjet. Something you have to remember is what's bad for them is killer for you. Don't do thunderstorms and remember ATC radars are focused on A/C, not weather. Worst time I ever had was a antique 210 with 300lbs of convict records in the back at night without a radar or A/P and ATC saying "it don't look too bad." Pick your IMC well. WJ |
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Severe is when you can't make out your instruments because your eyes are shaking too bad.
LIGHT TURBULENCE: Turbulence that momentarily causes slight, erratic changes in altitude and/or attitude. REACTION INSIDE AIRCRAFT: Occupants may feel a slight strain against seat belts or shoulder straps. Unsecured objects may be displaced slighty. Food service may be conducted and little or no difficulty is encountered in walking. MODERATE TURBULENCE: Turbulence that causes changes in altitude and/or attitude, but with the aircraft remaining in positive control at all times. It usually causes variations in indicated airspeed. or MODERATE CHOP: Turbulence that causes rapid bumps or jolts without appreciable changes in aircraft altitude or attitude. REACTION INSIDE AIRCRAFT: Occupants feel definite strains against seat belts or shoulder straps. Unsecured objects are dislodged. Food service and walking are difficult. SEVERE TURBULENCE: Turbulence that causes large, abrupt changes in altitude and/or attitude. It usually causes large variations in indicated airspeed. Aircraft may be momentarily out of control. REACTION INSIDE AIRCRAFT: Occupants are forced violently against seat belts or shoulder straps. Unsecured objects are tossed about. Food service and walking are impossible. EXTREME TURBULENCE: Turbulence in which the aircraft is violently tossed about and is practically impossible to control. It may cause structural damage. |
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Yeah, generally the higher they are the stronger they are. FL180-200 is where I begin to say "let's go around that one".
Your mileage may vary... 
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What would be the concern at FL200? Extensive vertical development? I dodged a bunch of clouds that went up at least that high. This was my best choice. |
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The severity depends a lot on what type A/C you are flying. Remember "wing loading"? Big fat slow wings are affected much more than a nice dinky MU-2 with a wing loading closer to a Learjet. Something you have to remember is what's bad for them is killer for you. Don't do thunderstorms and remember ATC radars are focused on A/C, not weather. Worst time I ever had was a antique 210 with 300lbs of convict records in the back at night without a radar or A/P and ATC saying "it don't look too bad." Pick your IMC well. WJ Can't say that enough. In light singles, you simply don't have the options, or usually the equipment, to get around weather. Remember that the controller is a traffic coordinator. He's not a weatherman, and doesn't usually have the equipment to make good calls regarding weather. The best he can usually do is telling how people got through the area and what kind of rides they reported. Also, asking for deviations around weather isn't a sign of weakness. Getting that .1 of actual IMC is cool, but, in FL especially, there is a great deal to recommend deviating 15-30 degrees left or right to get around build ups and thus stay in clear air. Also, sometimes you can get "wrong way" altitudes for a few miles to top buildups. Generally, just ask "Can I have 5 or 10 left and right of course for weather?" If you're flying a lot, the NexRad download to the new GPS is the cats meow, from many light plane freight pilots with which I spoke. We had it installed in some of the CJs at former employer, and the CJ bubbas said they preferred it to wx radar. |
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The severity depends a lot on what type A/C you are flying. Remember "wing loading"? Big fat slow wings are affected much more than a nice dinky MU-2 with a wing loading closer to a Learjet. Something you have to remember is what's bad for them is killer for you. Don't do thunderstorms and remember ATC radars are focused on A/C, not weather. Worst time I ever had was a antique 210 with 300lbs of convict records in the back at night without a radar or A/P and ATC saying "it don't look too bad." Pick your IMC well. WJ Can't say that enough. In light singles, you simply don't have the options, or usually the equipment, to get around weather. Remember that the controller is a traffic coordinator. He's not a weatherman, and doesn't usually have the equipment to make good calls regarding weather. The best he can usually do is telling how people got through the area and what kind of rides they reported. Also, asking for deviations around weather isn't a sign of weakness. Getting that .1 of actual IMC is cool, but, in FL especially, there is a great deal to recommend deviating 15-30 degrees left or right to get around build ups and thus stay in clear air. Also, sometimes you can get "wrong way" altitudes for a few miles to top buildups. Generally, just ask "Can I have 5 or 10 left and right of course for weather?" If you're flying a lot, the NexRad download to the new GPS is the cats meow, from many light plane freight pilots with which I spoke. We had it installed in some of the CJs at former employer, and the CJ bubbas said they preferred it to wx radar. Gee, all this fancy new stuff. I remember when they just handed us a flashlight or a Hostess Cupcake and said go to AMA right now. 
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About 30 minutes into the flight, ATC notified me of moderate to severe precipitation over the next forty miles.
That is not a weather observation, that is a warning telling you that without weather radar you're crasy to continue. Moderate to extreme precip only comes from 2 things. Hurricanes and thunderstorms. I didn't see any hurricanes in the Gulf today. Just because the tops are about 20,000 doesn't mean that they aren't at 40,000 15 minutes later. The deviations you describe would be severe. What I saw on the video would be heavy moderate for your type aircraft. What were you flying again? Flying in IMC, and no weather radar, with convective activity around is asking for it. It doesn't matter what FL you are at. Severe to extreme turb, severe precip, icing , lightning strikes, hail and structural damage all occur inside convective activity. If you can't stay VMC and visually avoid the towering cumulus, then you are playing russian roulette. Just my 2 cents from flying for the last 28 years ( F-15, MD-80, B-737-800) |
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About 30 minutes into the flight, ATC notified me of moderate to severe precipitation over the next forty miles.
That is not a weather observation, that is a warning telling you that without weather radar you're crasy to continue. Moderate to extreme precip only comes from 2 things. Hurricanes and thunderstorms. I didn't see any hurricanes in the Gulf today. Just because the tops are about 20,000 doesn't mean that they aren't at 40,000 15 minutes later. The deviations you describe would be severe. What I saw on the video would be heavy moderate for your type aircraft. What were you flying again? Flying in IMC, and no weather radar, with convective activity around is asking for it. It doesn't matter what FL you are at. Severe to extreme turb, severe precip, icing , lightning strikes, hail and structural damage all occur inside convective activity. If you can't stay VMC and visually avoid the towering cumulus, then you are playing russian roulette. Just my 2 cents from flying for the last 28 years ( F-15, MD-80, B-737-800) I spoke w/ my old instructors about this. I was flying a PA28-181 (Archer II) Lessons learned for next time: I had requested that the controller put me over land. I could see the shore in the distance at the time I made the request. The controller suggested that he thought I'd be alright, that there was VFR traffic ahead of me (if I'm not mistaken though, the a/c in VFR conditions was a gulfstream), and that he'd try to keep me vectored behind him. Next time I feel that way, I should be more assertive to the controller that I would like to deviate over land. At the time I requested the deviation, I would have been comfortable landing and waiting for the weather to clear up if necessary. I'm a very cautious pilot and had elected a "no-go" on my way up there on friday night because I was fatigued, even though my friends were all expecting me. A couple expected a flight up there and I made them drive. When you request a deviation over land, the controller doesn't give it to you, and you're far from shore like I was, what's the best way to assert your request? At the time the controller suggested that I continue on, I mentioned that I was an inexperienced IFR pilot and would feel more comfortable over land. In other words, I was shitting bricks and didn't want to be where I was, which was in the air and wishing I was on the ground, or at least over it. By "weather radar," do you mean XM weather or something like a storm scope? I did my IFR training in a DA40 w/ XM Weather, but have never seen a storm scope in action. I've just started looking at some of the NexRad things online. I think it's a worthwhile investment. Apparently the Flight Cheetah supports it as well as the G696. I'd rather not spend that much money, but if it helps keep me safe... |
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About 30 minutes into the flight, ATC notified me of moderate to severe precipitation over the next forty miles.
That is not a weather observation, that is a warning telling you that without weather radar you're crasy to continue. Moderate to extreme precip only comes from 2 things. Hurricanes and thunderstorms. I didn't see any hurricanes in the Gulf today. Just because the tops are about 20,000 doesn't mean that they aren't at 40,000 15 minutes later. The deviations you describe would be severe. What I saw on the video would be heavy moderate for your type aircraft. What were you flying again? Flying in IMC, and no weather radar, with convective activity around is asking for it. It doesn't matter what FL you are at. Severe to extreme turb, severe precip, icing , lightning strikes, hail and structural damage all occur inside convective activity. If you can't stay VMC and visually avoid the towering cumulus, then you are playing russian roulette. Just my 2 cents from flying for the last 28 years ( F-15, MD-80, B-737-800) I spoke w/ my old instructors about this. I was flying a PA28-181 (Archer II) Lessons learned for next time: I had requested that the controller put me over land. I could see the shore in the distance at the time I made the request. The controller suggested that he thought I'd be alright, that there was VFR traffic ahead of me (if I'm not mistaken though, the a/c in VFR conditions was a gulfstream), and that he'd try to keep me vectored behind him. Next time I feel that way, I should be more assertive to the controller that I would like to deviate over land. At the time I requested the deviation, I would have been comfortable landing and waiting for the weather to clear up if necessary. I'm a very cautious pilot and had elected a "no-go" on my way up there on friday night because I was fatigued, even though my friends were all expecting me. A couple expected a flight up there and I made them drive. When you request a deviation over land, the controller doesn't give it to you, and you're far from shore like I was, what's the best way to assert your request? At the time the controller suggested that I continue on, I mentioned that I was an inexperienced IFR pilot and would feel more comfortable over land. In other words, I was shitting bricks and didn't want to be where I was, which was in the air and wishing I was on the ground, or at least over it. By "weather radar," do you mean XM weather or something like a storm scope? I did my IFR training in a DA40 w/ XM Weather, but have never seen a storm scope in action. I've just started looking at some of the NexRad things online. I think it's a worthwhile investment. Apparently the Flight Cheetah supports it as well as the G696. I'd rather not spend that much money, but if it helps keep me safe... To answer your questions best I can: If on an IFR flight plan and weather is a factor, like you need to go around it or change direction for convective activety or turbulance, ask for something specific. Asking to be vectored over land is too vague. " Need deviation for wx request heading 360" If you don't get what you need then tell him " need to come left 360 immediately" If you still get no satidfaction then just do it and tell him you are turning left to 360. If you want to change your route, just request direct a certain fix The wx radar I'm referring to is onboard real time radar with each sweep of the antenna. If it's inop we can't fly in areas with convective activety unless we can stay VMC. Asking to be vectored behind traffic that says his ride is good or he says he's VMC doesn't guarantee it's going to stay that way. I've seen holes between cells that were 5 miles wide and as we were heading for them they close up befoe you can get there. Remember that when the ATC says he thinks you will be ok, his life isn't dependant on his assumptions. If you don't like your situation, change it. Decide what you want and ask for it specifically. A request is just that a request. If you need it, tell him you need it. And if you must do it now, then tell him as your doing it. Don't ever let ATC talk you into doing something that makes you uncomfortable. If you use the word need he understands you need it that it's not just a request. You may need to declare an emmergency, but you can always do what you need to do. Several times I have turned the airplane 90 left to avoid a storm and as I was trying to tell ATC. TCAS helps in that you can see if any traffic is over there. The bottom line is you make your decision and then tell him what you want. Don't let him make decisions for you. You can ask for information he has, wx, rides, aircraft in front of you, but then use that info to make the decision. The more experience you get, the more comfortable you will be knowing you are making the right decision to turn around / divert / deviate. etc. It's always better to be more conservative than you have to be as compared to getting your ass in a crack. Fly Safe. |
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Why are you handling a video camera while you are on the controls in IMC? I've punched into clouds a few times. They've always been pretty smooth or, as far as I'd experienced, "cloud-like," (some gentle, easily controllable, acceleration of the a/c). I wanted to record the experience of flying into the opaque cloud. I got a rude surprise that time. My intention was to stop filming as soon as I entered the cloud. In this case, my focus shifted to maintaining control. The camera was a small digital still camera w/ video capability, not exactly a camcorder. It's pretty obvious that I wasn't looking at it. |
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To answer your questions best I can: If on an IFR flight plan and weather is a factor, like you need to go around it or change direction for convective activety or turbulance, ask for something specific. Asking to be vectored over land is too vague. " Need deviation for wx request heading 360" If you don't get what you need then tell him " need to come left 360 immediately" If you still get no satidfaction then just do it and tell him you are turning left to 360. If you want to change your route, just request direct a certain fix The wx radar I'm referring to is onboard real time radar with each sweep of the antenna. If it's inop we can't fly in areas with convective activety unless we can stay VMC. Asking to be vectored behind traffic that says his ride is good or he says he's VMC doesn't guarantee it's going to stay that way. I've seen holes between cells that were 5 miles wide and as we were heading for them they close up befoe you can get there. Remember that when the ATC says he thinks you will be ok, his life isn't dependant on his assumptions. If you don't like your situation, change it. Decide what you want and ask for it specifically. A request is just that a request. If you need it, tell him you need it. And if you must do it now, then tell him as your doing it. Don't ever let ATC talk you into doing something that makes you uncomfortable. If you use the word need he understands you need it that it's not just a request. You may need to declare an emmergency, but you can always do what you need to do. Several times I have turned the airplane 90 left to avoid a storm and as I was trying to tell ATC. TCAS helps in that you can see if any traffic is over there. The bottom line is you make your decision and then tell him what you want. Don't let him make decisions for you. You can ask for information he has, wx, rides, aircraft in front of you, but then use that info to make the decision. The more experience you get, the more comfortable you will be knowing you are making the right decision to turn around / divert / deviate. etc. It's always better to be more conservative than you have to be as compared to getting your ass in a crack. Fly Safe. This is the type of advice I was hoping to get and I really, really appreciate it. I've seen some pilots on other forums discussing picking their way through weather using storm scopes as an alternative to radar. Not that I'm wanting to push things, but if they're valuable in that capacity, it would be good to know if I could rely on them. It looks as if the weakness that I need to fix is a lack of confidence in my own judgement. The experience has certainly forced me to learn more about weather. I texted the link to my old instructor; his response was, "what doesn't kill you will make you a better pilot" |
| Remember if the controller vectors you into hail or microbursts then he is going to feel pretty bad. Hell he might even get fired. You however will be swimming in the Caribbean; if you are lucky. If you are VMC and center is not giving you what you want, you always have the option of canceling IFR and proceeding VFR. Cautious is good. Just remember, only you can make the call when you are in the air. Never let anyone who isn’t at the controls push your safety limits. You can deviate from any flight rule for safety of flight if you have to (just be able to explain it really well). And you always have the Emergency card. It’s better to be talking to the FAA than St Peter. |
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Why are you handling a video camera while you are on the controls in IMC? I've punched into clouds a few times. They've always been pretty smooth or, as far as I'd experienced, "cloud-like," (some gentle, easily controllable, acceleration of the a/c). I wanted to record the experience of flying into the opaque cloud. I got a rude surprise that time. My intention was to stop filming as soon as I entered the cloud. In this case, my focus shifted to maintaining control. The camera was a small digital still camera w/ video capability, not exactly a camcorder. It's pretty obvious that I wasn't looking at it. Now this is kind of a real problem. If you are flying IFR you should not be thinking about filming. You should be thinking about flying and nothing else. Keep your mind on the job or you will die. Learn because this is a dumb rookie mistake. Get in the A/C and focus only on flying. Every time. If you could see the shore you could have Cx the flight plan and stay VFR. Number one rule. Fly the airplane. Our old saying is you can get killed in your chair, the controller cannot if he falls out of his. You are PIC. Do what you need to do. Pick your weather carefully and remember flying is a perishable product. Keep up your skill level. Don't try to cheat a little. Follow the book. Rules were made because somebody died. It is really good that you got a jolt. You are thinking. That's good. WJ |
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Why are you handling a video camera while you are on the controls in IMC? I've punched into clouds a few times. They've always been pretty smooth or, as far as I'd experienced, "cloud-like," (some gentle, easily controllable, acceleration of the a/c). I wanted to record the experience of flying into the opaque cloud. I got a rude surprise that time. My intention was to stop filming as soon as I entered the cloud. In this case, my focus shifted to maintaining control. The camera was a small digital still camera w/ video capability, not exactly a camcorder. It's pretty obvious that I wasn't looking at it. Now this is kind of a real problem. If you are flying IFR you should not be thinking about filming. You should be thinking about flying and nothing else. Keep your mind on the job or you will die. Learn because this is a dumb rookie mistake. Get in the A/C and focus only on flying. Every time. If you could see the shore you could have Cx the flight plan and stay VFR. Number one rule. Fly the airplane. Our old saying is you can get killed in your chair, the controller cannot if he falls out of his. You are PIC. Do what you need to do. Pick your weather carefully and remember flying is a perishable product. Keep up your skill level. Don't try to cheat a little. Follow the book. Rules were made because somebody died. It is really good that you got a jolt. You are thinking. That's good. WJ Good points. Also, I would de-identify that video if I were the OP. It's a stretch, but the federales would be all over him for taking a video while hand flying an airplane on an ifr clearance in IMC while dealing with a possible altitude deviation. |
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I'd call that "cumulo-moderate".
If you plan to continue shooting video in the cockpit, invest in some mounts for your camera to keep your hands free. See my rig here. That comes in handy for shots like these: Clouds - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PaRH8AFT8hw Interesting incident @ KBUF - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-LAtO2zmuNc Approach to the Outer Banks of NC - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yG5WJmEA6yQ And of course this one - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k_8Zi2g8sIg |
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First off, I scared myself a bunch with a couple hundred hours. It's not a bad thing but you'll eventually realize that you don't do stuff like that on a regular basis. You went busting through S. FL cumulus clouds. Those will knock a 757 around––they knock the crap out of a light plane. They won't kill you but it's, ahem, uncomfortable.
Second, just because a plane is IFR "equipped", doesn't mean you SHOULD go flying in wx regularly. You lose a power source or go partial panel (unless you're VERY current and competent) and you're F'ed. (As far as I'm concerned, DC-9's are Day VFR Only. Get it?  )
Also, when ATC says "moderate to extreme precip" you should assume the worst––and I mean THE WORST. Now, if you've got radar on board (not a XM repeater––a good, useful unit for big picture stuff but not for picking your way through stuff) you'll realize the the 'moderate to extreme' is often grossly overrated––but it COULD be anything from a supercell to honest-to -god moderate showers. You just don't know. They are looking at the NEXRAD and warning you so they don't get in trouble with you pull the wings off in a level 5 TRW. I'd say you learned a valuable lesson. And, if you can't articulate that lesson at this point, STAY THE FUCK OUT OF THE CLOUDS! 
TC |
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First off, I scared myself a bunch with a couple hundred hours. It's not a bad thing but you'll eventually realize that you don't do stuff like that on a regular basis. You went busting through S. FL cumulus clouds. Those will knock a 757 around––they knock the crap out of a light plane. They won't kill you but it's, ahem, uncomfortable. Second, just because a plane is IFR "equipped", doesn't mean you SHOULD go flying in wx regularly. You lose a power source or go partial panel (unless you're VERY current and competent) and you're F'ed. (As far as I'm concerned, DC-9's are Day VFR Only. Get it? )
Also, when ATC says "moderate to extreme precip" you should assume the worst––and I mean THE WORST. Now, if you've got radar on board (not a XM repeater––a good, useful unit for big picture stuff but not for picking your way through stuff) you'll realize the the 'moderate to extreme' is often grossly overrated––but it COULD be anything from a supercell to honest-to -god moderate showers. You just don't know. They are looking at the NEXRAD and warning you so they don't get in trouble with you pull the wings off in a level 5 TRW. I'd say you learned a valuable lesson. And, if you can't articulate that lesson at this point, STAY THE FUCK OUT OF THE CLOUDS!
TC The freightdog gods are laughing and shitting pellets for you to step in on your next walk around! My old boss once did a hotshot in a TriPacer I kid you not 0100 and claiming " good VFR" with 1200 and 3 miles. WJ
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Second, just because a plane is IFR "equipped", doesn't mean you SHOULD go flying in wx regularly. You lose a power source or go partial panel (unless you're VERY current and competent) and you're F'ed. (As far as I'm concerned, DC-9's are Day VFR Only. Get it? )
I'd say you learned a valuable lesson. And, if you can't articulate that lesson at this point, STAY THE FUCK OUT OF THE CLOUDS!
TC The freightdog gods are laughing and shitting pellets for you to step in on your next walk around! My old boss once did a hotshot in a TriPacer I kid you not 0100 and claiming " good VFR" with 1200 and 3 miles. WJ
Hey, the worst stuff I've ever flown in was during my time in the -9 but I'm older and wiser...well, I'm older. 
TC |
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I want to say "what did you expect?"
That looked fairly mild in the video, but it was probably much worse in person. Not sure if I am right on this one but moderate turbulence is considered 1.4G's. From what I could tell, you were in moderate. Light: No more than five MPH variation in airspeed induced by the bumps. No more than 20 degrees bank induced flying straight. No more than 300 foot per minute variation up or down induced by the bumps. Mod: 6 to 12 MPH variation in airspeed induced by turbulence. 20 to 40 degrees bank induced flying straight. 300 to 1000 foot per minute variation up or down in vertical speed from normal. Many years ago, I had an airline flight from hell. It was a 727 out of Phoenix. We did 2 aborted takeoffs (hot day, poor performance) and finally got into the air. We then lost a hydraulic system. We then flew right into thunderstorms. It was a very rough ride, likely the worst I'll ever see. We ended up rolling to the left 90 degrees in the storm and then rolling out. We were out of control for a good bit. I am not sure how much altitude we lost but I am sure it was significant. Stuff was everywhere. The food cart was on top of the seats in the back (no pax there). It sucked. I spoke with the captain afterwards and he mentioned that the poor take off performance was due to "raisebeck (sp) stage III hush kits, they reduce engine output and change flap settings. Resulting in the aircraft accelerating poorly. He mentioned that during rotation, the aircraft actually stopped accelerating and we were stuck in that condition until he throttled up some more. |
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I'd call that "cumulo-moderate". If you plan to continue shooting video in the cockpit, invest in some mounts for your camera to keep your hands free. See my rig here. That comes in handy for shots like these: Clouds - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PaRH8AFT8hw Interesting incident @ KBUF - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-LAtO2zmuNc Approach to the Outer Banks of NC - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yG5WJmEA6yQ And of course this one - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k_8Zi2g8sIg Nice! |
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Shortly after I got my ticket I encountered some severe turbulence in eastern Wyoming on the way back from Rapid City South Dakota.
A friend was flying that leg (we were VFR) and we could not control altitude at all. We climbed 4000 feet and back down again several times. I tried to call ATC but I could not touch the radio knobs at all. At one point my hand hit the ceiling. A clipboard in the back kept hitting the ceiling. I remember the altimeter looked like the clock winding in the cartoons. It was insane. The up and down drafts were so severe that I thought we were going to have a structural failure. We were going to emergency land at Torrington Wy but the wind was over 35 knots and almost 90 degrees to the runway. All we did was try to keep the airspeed below Va and maintain attitude. Altitude and heading were irrelevant at that point. We made it Greeley with some severe ass puckering. Reported the turbulence to the A&P, who did the 100 hour on the plane then. |
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From an ATC perspective, we (controllers) are constantly reminded to be as accomodating to pilots when it comes to wx.
However.... ...Our first priority is separation of aircraft; thus, we cannot, and will not, give you a clearance, vector, altitude, etc, that will lead to a loss of separation. So, what is a pilot to do? As stated by previous posters, be CLEAR about what you need: "I need to turn to the east...at least to 060 or better" "I need to climb to one zero thousand" "I need vectors to VMC conditions, preferrably to the NW" "I am IMC, unrated/unequipped for IFR, and I have 25 min of fuel remaining..." I need to re-emphasize the need for pilots to be clear about what they need. Controllers are not mind readers. In the course of dealing with your situation, we are also working other traffic and may not 'get the hint' that you are in trouble, and you are hesitant/unsure to declare an emergency, or to ask for assistance. If you need somethng to avoid a hazardous situation, and ATC cannot grant your request due to traffic/airspace issues/whatever, delclare an emergency and inform the controller as to what you are going to do: you: "Approach, Bonanza 23E....I need 30 degrees right to avoid some wx...." me: "23E, unable due to traffic...traffic, 3 o'clock, 4 miles same direction, a Cheyenne...I can give you a left turn now, or 30 degrees right in about 15 miles..." you: "Approach, unable a left turn, the left is even worse...I need right of course, right now... me: "Bonanza 23E, say intentions..." you: "N23E is declaring an emergency...turning 30 deg right. I'll resume on course as soon as feasable..." me: "N23E roger, traffic alert, traffic 2 to 3 oclock, 3 miles, north bound, a cheyenne at 7000, do you have the Cheyenne in sight? me: "Cheyenne 68W, traffic alert, traffic, 9 oclock, 3 miles, NNE bound, a Bonanza, also at 7000, declared an emergency ...turn right heading 050, vector for traffic, expect back on course shortly" you: "23E has the Cheyenne in sight and will maintain visual..." me: "23E, roger... ...N68W, traffic has you in sight and will maintain visual separation, turn 20 degrees left. When able, proceed direct Jones, resume own navigation..." When you tell us what you are going to do, we'll do our best to keep you informed as to what is around you. On a side note, a lot of what you can get (or not get) from ATC is also dependent on where you are. For example, here in the NE corridor (DC to Boston), everything is very tighly packed together. The routes between destinations are very specific and very altitude sensitive. When folks start deviating around wx, the route gets shut down because once a crew sez "I need 30 deg left for 40 miles..." that generally puts them into/across/through another airway/jet route/ATC sector. Farther west, wx deviations have a lesser impact on adjacent traffic, so ATC granting your requests is much easier. Again, controllers are not callous to pilots requests, but, we are constrained as to how much leeway we have in granting those requests. Now, as also previously touched upon, our radar is designed for separation not meteorology, so wx representation is not that great (I am a Terminal puke, so the Center weenies will have to chime in as to their radar display capabilities). My radar displays six levels of precip, classified in four intensities, as follows: Light (lvl 1), moderate (lvl 2), heavy (lvl 3&4), and extreme (lvl 5&6) I do not know what this corresponds to with onboard radar sstems, however, I do know that the extreme precip on my display is really nasty shit about 85% of the time. This is the stuff that generates the Micro Burst Alerts on our terminal doppler windshear alert system. |
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I was just reading a piece by Yodice about a pilot who busted an altitude by 600 or so feet during turbulence and was suspended for 160 days.
I thought to myself, holy shit, there is no way my little Cessna 177RG can maintain altitude during some of the turbulence we get in South Florida. It happens so quickly. On a recent cross country while blocking an altitude, I went from 8500 to 10,000 in a matter of seconds. All the while heading down at VNE +- a few Kts. The lift was that strong. And the clouds were visibly growing at an incredible rate. The facts remain, I could not have predicted the lift, I could not see it as it was clear where I was flying. Nor did I have time to deal with radio calls. I was not about to pick up the microphone or make a call when flying the airplane was far more important, AND exceeding difficult and rough. So, my choice is to declare an emergency as soon as I enter turbulence that's moderate to severe, if I don't block an altitude or cannot maintain Altitude/Heading? That little fact should have been primary training. The answer, has of course, come to many pilots. Don't file a flight plan and don't talk to ATC. Stay out of various airspace and enjoy the ride. I prefer, at the very least to use flight following. Now I know better. I'll get nicked for flying a light aircraft that's highly susceptible to turbulence related altitude excursions. Too bad I can't afford a jet. Edited for clarity. |
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As a controller at Boston Center
Honestly we can't see windshear or microbursts. .. Our radar at the center depicts "precipitation" in 4 varying degrees, but it also only updates anywhere from every 6-12 minutes. So, I fully expect the pilot's eyes will do a better job in determining his course of action based on skill level and aircraft. When a pilot says " I need 15 right for a buildup" you can rest assured the controller will cap or turn traffic to accomadate your needs, but make sure you are clear and concise about what it you want, and if you are uncomfortable with a clearence or have questions about rides or weather, then speak up and ask. That is what we are there for. I hear too many newer pilots that either intimidated or aren't quite sure what our role is as controllers or what we are capable of doing..... We will do everything for you but lay hands on the controls. Use us. Fly safe LT; ZBW |