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This is in regards to an earlier post I'd made (http://www.ar15.com/archive/topic.html?b=1&f=135&t=1145287&page=2).

Basically, I still wrestle with the topic of the Trinity, I have no doubts in God the Father, Jesus His Son, or the Holy Spirit. I love and believe on all of them.

My question is this though, what denominations (if any) practice a non-Trinitarian belief aside from Jehovah's Witness and Mormons? While I might share the basics of this belief with them, I disagree on quite a few more issues.

I've read that the Unitarians believe similar things that I do, but in my area, there's no Unitarian church, there's a Unitarian-Universalist church...but I think I'd rather hang with the JH's or Mormon's, or for that matter just stay at home if those are my options.


Any thoughts/ideas/etc?

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The Unitarian Universalist Church is a great fit for most people because it allows anyone to believe in practically anything they want.

As far as Christian Churches, no, one of the basic unifying tenants of Christianity is the Doctrine of The Trinity.
If you happen to find a “Christian Church” that teaches anything other than One God in Three Persons it would be recognized as proponents of Heresy by Protestant, Evangelical, Pentecostal and Catholic alike
It would be akin to finding a “Christian Church” that did not believe in the Resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead.

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The Unitarian Universalist Church is a great fit for most people because it allows anyone to believe in practically anything they want.

As far as Christian Churches, no, one of the basic unifying tenants of Christianity is the Doctrine of The Trinity.
If you happen to find a “Christian Church” that teaches anything other than One God in Three Persons it would be recognized as proponents of Heresy by Protestant, Evangelical, Pentecostal and Catholic alike
It would be akin to finding a “Christian Church” that did not believe in the Resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead.

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If you happen to find a “Christian Church” that teaches anything other than One God in Three Persons it would be recognized as proponents of Heresy by Protestant, Evangelical, Pentecostal and Catholic alike
It would be akin to finding a “Christian Church” that did not believe in the Resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead.

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That does kind of look like a really bad analogy...

There are many different "Christian" Churches... And some of those do not rely on the Nicene Creed, and the other early creeds, for the foundation of their beliefs...

I would say that the definition of "Christian" is not who accepts or does not accept that the political power-players who wrote the Nicene Creed were right or wrong in their political ambitions...

I would say that the definition of who is "Christian" is who accepts Christ as their Lord and their Redeemer...

It is a little ~ to make attempts to move the defninition of who is "Christian" from who accepts Christ as their Lord and Redeemer to who accepts the early creeds...

Me, I accept Christ. I worship Christ.

But I do not accept that the Nicene Creed is from God. I believe that it contradicts pretty plain scripture. Acts 7:55 But he, being full of the Holy Ghost, looked up stedfastly into heaven, and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing on the right hand of God, 56And said, Behold, I see the heavens opened, and the Son of man standing on the right hand of God.

My beliefs in Christ, the Son of God, being *separate* and on the *right* hand of God might not line-up with the early creeds... But it lines up *perfectly* with sacred scripture...

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I should remind folks that simply using the name of Jesus Christ doesn’t validate the actions of any “churches  or individuals ” including the ones I mentioned.

Jesus Himself said that there will be many on the day of Judgment who say “Lord Lord” I know you…but he will say depart from, me for I never knew you…that in addition to many warnings of false christs and false gospels.

The are many Catholic Priests and Protestant Preachers who dilute the Gospel and reduce the Cross to the point where they’re teaching in error and no longer convicting hearts to repentance and pointing to Gods Grace.

In the same way my Mormon friends and I believe in two very different Jesus Christs ….one claims to be One with the Father second in the Trinity and offers Grace completely sufficient for the sinners salvation……..the other claims to be the firstborn of many sons of God and totally separate from the Father and combines his grace with mankind’s merit for their salvation.

Clearly they have nothing but name in common… just as clearly one must be complete deception and offers false salvation to sinners. To paraphrase CS Lewis , they may both be liars….but they cannot both be the truth.

Many men fill the “Christian” pulpits across America modifying Jesus to fit their own and their congregations passions, pleasures and personal gods.

Truth demands that there can only be One Way , One Truth and One Life…no man can see God without It.

edit:Sorry, This may have turned into a slight thread hijack. Ill refrain further comments for better suited threads.

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False analogy is false, as the LDS have always believed in the resurrection of Jesus Christ.


It is absolutely true that the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints isn't a derivative of the Catholic Church or its creeds.  In this we are different than Protestants, Evangelicals, Pentecostals, and Catholics.

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That is your view but most would say that had it not been for the protestant American churches Joseph Smith and the LDS would not exist. He did not create Mormonism in a vacuum.

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Denial of the Trinity is nothing new. The early church was not immune from false teachings and that is why we have the creeds that clarify Christian beliefs. They aren't "political" they are a defense and confession of faith.

The Athanasian Creed was probably written around 500 A.D. in Southern Gaul (France). The German tribes that had invaded this part of the world were Arians. The Arian heresy had been condemned by the Council of Nicea in 325 A.D. and by the Council of Constantinople in 381 (from which we get our Nicene Creed).

The Arians denied that Jesus could be God in the same sense that God the Father is God. They believed that the Son of God was created by God and was less than God. They, therefore, rejected God as he has revealed himself in the Holy Scriptures. They were worshiping a god of their own making.

The Athanasian Creed, in the strongest of terms, rejects these various errors concerning the person of Christ and the Trinity.

Our Savior himself says, "Moreover, the Father judges no one, but has entrusted all judgment to the Son, so that all may honor the Son just as they honor the Father. He who does not honor the Son does not honor that Father who sent him" (John 5:22-23). According to these words, those who withhold from the Son the honor that they give to the Father (e.g., that he is true God from all eternity) also deny the Father. They are not true believers.

The creed, however, is not condemning simple Christians whose knowledge and understanding is incomplete. We do not have to be able to explain complex scriptural doctrine in order to be saved. The Athanasian Creed, nevertheless, is condemning those who deny and reject these vital scriptural truths. Those who reject the doctrine of the Trinity and the true deity of Christ are not Christian.

The Latter Day Saints deny the scriptural doctrine of the Trinity. They teach that there are many gods and human beings can become gods themselves through a kind of spiritual evolution. Mormons are taught "As man now is, God once was; as God now is, man may become." Mormonism denies the scriptural teaching of justification by grace alone through faith in Jesus and teaches a system of salvation by works. They teach that people are born inherently good and have the freedom to make the right decisions. They believe that people progress by making wise use of this freedom.

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The Latter Day Saints deny the scriptural doctrine of the Trinity.

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They teach that there are many gods and human beings can become gods themselves through a kind of spiritual evolution. Mormons are taught "As man now is, God once was; as God now is, man may become."

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Mormonism denies the scriptural teaching of justification by grace alone through faith in Jesus and teaches a system of salvation by works. They teach that people are born inherently good and have the freedom to make the right decisions. They believe that people progress by making wise use of this freedom.

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The creeds are only political if you don't agree with them.

As much as I hate analogies, consider this: in Major League Baseball there is the American League and the National League. They are not the same; one difference is the AL has the designated hitter rule while the NL does not. But they do agree that three strikes and you're out, three outs retire the side, the base path is 90 feet long and a game is nine innings long. There are some minor differences in the rules, but they share the same definitions. You can't come in and change the rules to allow a larger ball, shorten the base path, etc. and call yourself baseball; that's soft ball. Although they share the same words, but the definitions are different.

Christianity and Mormonism share the same words, but they don't have the same definitions. You can't join the club, live outside the rules by changing the definitions and then call yourself the same. We're not. It's not my intent to make you sound disingenuous because I don't believe you are. I believe your argument would make more sense to me if your argument was not "We're Christian too", but rather "We are and you aren't". I can also see how that wouldn't make points with anybody but divide even more. But what is more important, unity or the truth?

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What about the LDS "Heavenly Father"

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and a different planet Kolob

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and the gold plates that were interpreted and then ended up being a hoax.  

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If this goes much further, I'll tum my 19 year old daughter loose on this thread it will be "the end"  

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Members of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints are not the only ones who use The Lords Payer, Matthew 6:9-13" Our Father in Heaven, hallowed be thy name..."



From: http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,317272,00.html (official church responses to questions from Fox News)

Q: Does the Church believe that God is a physical being?

A: Mormons believe Jesus Christ is literally the Son of God, the Savior and Redeemer, who died for the sins of humankind and rose from the dead on the third day with an immortal body. God, the Father, also has an immortal body.

Q: If so, does the Church believe that God lives on a planet named Kolob?

A: 'Kolob' is a term found in ancient records translated by Joseph Smith. Joseph Smith did not provide a full description or explanation of Kolob nor did he assign the idea particular significance in relation to the Church’s core doctrines.



We believe the Book of Mormon, which Joseph Smith translated from gold plates, to be scripture. We believe the Bible to be the Word of God, and we also believe the Book of Mormon to be the Word of God.

Antagonists to the church claim that the entire thing is a hoax. Joseph Smith went to the grave proclaiming the truthfulness of what he brought forth. Members of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints consider Joseph Smith to be a Prophet, just as there were prophets anciently. More that Joseph Smith saw the gold plates. All who saw them swore to the gave that they saw them and that they were real...

Atheists claim that the Bible is a hoax, and antagonists to The Church of Jesus Christ can claim that what we believe is a hoax. Who cares. Seriously.

I have faith that it is true... Take it or leave it...



In the Religion Forum we work to have positive two-way discussions. We also try to answer questions with dignity and respect towards each others beliefs here...

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OK, I'll leave you alone, in the mean time I'll try and decipher the Kinderhook plates so I'm more informed.

By the way, I've got some very nice LDS friends.  But at the first meeting of our families, I laid out the rules," we have differing beliefs and we are OK with that.  We won't try and convert you and you won't try and convert us"  

They have been good folks and we have a great time when we get together.

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WindKnot1-1,

Do you believe that all Christians will be absorbed together into one person?

Edited for a more concise question.

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No.

Do I believe that all who believe that Christ who IS 100% God and 100% man suffered and died on the cross for the forgiveness of ALL our sin so that we may be in his presence forever will be in his presence? Yes. I didn't earn it nor will any of my works be credited for it or to it. My works are only caused by the Holy Spirit within me BECAUSE of what he has done for me.

Question for you my (sincere) friend, Is Jesus God? Did his death on the cross and his ressurrection ensure your place in Heaven? Or did he just prepare a pathway for you to achieve forgiveness and heaven?

Ah, the old, "different Jesus Christ" argument. Reminds me of how the Pharisees and Sadducees must have viewed Jesus, rejecting him as the Messiah because he didn't fit into their notions of how the Messiah was supposed to be. The parallel is even more striking considering the Pharisees and Sadducees insisted on only referring to previous writings and didn't recognize living prophets/apostles in their own time, much like some today.

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Actually they were always at each others throats, sort like Reform and friends are with Orthodox.  For one thing the Pharisees believed in reincarnation, the Sadducees believed you disappeared from existance.  Jesus had many friends in the Pharisees.  As for the Messiah, the Jewish perspective is a two fold, first a King from the House of David, second a High Priest, that would be Jesus and John. Why do you have to keep taking our words and history and twisting it?  

As for the Aryans not believing in the trinity....so what, I like their beliefs better and there were many early followers of Jesus that believed that way, just because Paul's believes won, doesn;t mean they are the only or the right one.

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This answer, which I highlighted in red,  manifests how the creedal Trinitarian doctrine of God the Father, the Son Jesus Christ, and the Holy Ghost is inconsistent and contradictory.  Especially in light of John 17:11

"11And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we are."

Jesus himself declares for his disciples to be one and adds for clarification that it is to be in the same context as He is one with The Father.  That is scripture.

So if a person doesn't believe that disciples will be absorbed into one single being, then the creedal interpretation of The Father, The Son, and The Holy Ghost as the same being is contradictory.

As for Christ's atonement, of course I believe in it.  
As for what is expected of us as disciples, I can refer to my Church's articles of faith:
––––––––––––––––––––-
3. We believe that through the Atonement of Christ, all mankind may be saved, by obedience to the laws and ordinances of the Gospel.

4. We believe that the first principles and ordinances of the Gospel are: first, Faith in the Lord Jesus Christ; second, Repentance; third, Baptism by immersion for the remission of sins; fourth, Laying on of hands for the gift of the Holy Ghost.
––––––––––––––––––
We absolutely acknowledge that it is faith in Christ that saves, but we recognize that faith is a principle of action, which is a large part of what differentiates it from mere belief.  After all, even devils believe that Jesus exists.  Understanding faith to be a principle of both belief and action brings into harmony the teachings of both James and Paul.  Thus, faith leads us to repentance and obedience in receiving ordinances such as baptism.

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But is Jesus God?

We're back to differences in definitions. Your scriptures are not limited to what we believe are scriptures. Your "Law of the Gospel" is unique to your faith. You believe that faith is a work, we don't. Faith is a giftand a work of the Holy Spirit, not us.

Yes, Jesus is absolutely God. More specifically, God the Son.

If faith is not of you, then where is your agency? If your faith is without works, what did the apostle James say about that?

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Agency? I am able to deny God on my own; it is my nature. But I cannot believe in God without the Holy Spirit. I cannot choose God, he chose me.

James did indeed say that faith without works is dead. However he did not say that works were necessary for salvation. Good works are the result of my faith; the Holy Spirit causes me to do them in THANKSGIVING of my salvation, not for it.

Speaking of the HS, is he God?

(edited because I have fat fingers)

By the way, you say that you cannot believe in God without the Holy Spirit.  Well, "the devils also believe, and tremble."  I doubt those devils are full of the Holy Spirit.

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'Belief' in the case of the devils simply meaning that they're cognizant of God's existence.

They don't have faith in Him as a means of salvation because they've given themselves over to self-love.

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Left out Orthodox from your list.

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So please explain how you separate faith from being "cognizant", if faith isn't a principle of action?

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The world is full of people who are cognizant of the facts regarding nutrition and exercise and yet continue destroying their physical health with poor diet and slothful habits.

It's the same manner in spiritual life where Satan and other evil spirits are cognizant of the reality of God yet prefer to rebel against His dominion in favor of their own vain ambitions.

Grace is like a rope thrown to a drowning man - the initiative in the process belongs to the one who throws the rope, but the drowning man still has to make the conscious decision to take hold.  Similiarly, people have the power to resist the working of the Holy Spirit in their lives.

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Sounds like a principle of action...

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Yes, I get that Mormons are trying to bait Catholics into endorsing their particular view of theology.  

However, Augustine covered the whole relation between Grace and Free Will and the role the Holy Spirit plays in the process.  If you are playing word games with some contrived 'principle of action' which sets Free Will in opposition with the Holy Spirit, as if the existence of one negates the existence of the other, it's flat out WRONG.  There's no contradiction or opposition and you're simply being obtuse.

It figures you would do that though, Mormonism being extremely Pelegian in its outlook...

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Of course the Holy Spirit is God.

Your answer is confusing.  On the one hand you acknowledge that faith without works is dead, then suggest that works are not necessary for salvation.  This is confusing because I'm sure you acknowledge that faith is necessary for salvation.  So, if faith without works is dead, then works are an inherent part of faith necessary for salvation.  Not only are they not mutually exclusive, but they are unavoidably linked.  

Just yesterday I was reviewing Matthew 25:31-46 (for a Sunday school lesson).  In it Jesus talks about the judgement that will take place when he returns in his glory.  How does Jesus describe the division between the "sheep" and the "goats"?  The division Jesus describes is based on actions, specifically on service to others.  Now, again, if one understands faith to be a principle of action this makes sense.  However, if one keeps arguing against the part of actions in relation to salvation then that person is arguing contrary to what Jesus himself taught.

By the way, you say that you cannot believe in God without the Holy Spirit.  Well, "the devils also believe, and tremble."  I doubt those devils are full of the Holy Spirit.

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God the Holy Spirit works through the words recorded for us in the Bible. But it not only "informs", it "performs" as well. It informs because it tells us what he has done for us. But he also performs certain works and actions with it. He uses the word to CREATE FEED and SUSTAIN our faith. The good works we do are a result and not a cause of his Grace. Good works are excluded from any considerastion for our salvation. God's grace alone is the basis for that. But that does not mean that they are excluded from the life of a Christian. Rather, the Christian does good works as a result of being saved. This is not in conflict with your Matthew citing. This story does not teach that people are justified before God on the basis of works. The sheep receive their blessing and inheritance from before the Father before a single word about their good works is even spoken. Scripture teaches that people do good works in God's sight only after they have come to faith and been justified by Christ. Again, good works are the result of salvation and not the cause.

God's grace results in our faith; our faith results in our works. It just doesn't go the other way and God always gets the credit for the whole thing.

Back to the Trinity debate...

So far we agree that...

The Father is God
The Son is God
The Holy Spirit is God.

How many Gods are there? Is he eternal?

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The Bible teaches that there is one God (Is. 44:6). The Bible teaches that there are three persons who are God (Is. 46:9; John 1 :1, 14; Acts 5:1-4). Therefore, the Bible teaches that there is one God that exists in three persons. This is the sound logic that has been applied by the Church to the Bible for centuries, always yielding the doctrine of the Trinity. You are claiming three distinct persons, as do we. But there are not three gods.

Is God eternal? In Revelation Jesus said he is the Alpha and the Omega; for us, A to Z. There is nothing before and there is nothing after. He encompasses all of time. He was there at creation, the beginning of time. (Gen. 1:26, John 1:1)

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We won't be absorbed into God as we are not God. Nor will we ever be. God is God. Not created by anyone. We on the otherhand are not eternal as we had a beginning. We will however be in his presence.

I don't see where you're going with Christ praying in the garden. We've already established the three persons in God. He showed all of his persons at the baptism too. So what's your point, that because he is three persons, he can't be one? I don't understand how you can hold im to nature when he created it. He is infinite; we are not. You are placing limitations on him. I will not. Christianity does not. God has a body of flesh and bones.   Also, contrary to what the Mormon’s teach, God is immaterial, or, not material. Positively put, God is pure Spirit. God is not composed of matter, nor is He corporeal (made of body). God cannot be material because God cannot change (Mal. 3:6) and matter goes through changes; God is not a part of the material universe (Heb. 1:11-12).   God is also the creator and sustainer of the universe, “In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth” (Gen. 1:1) and God also created man from the dust of the ground (Gen 2:7). He also sustains life for “in Him we live and move and have our being” (Acts 17:28). God is omnipotent, that is, has infinite power (1 Pet. 1 :5). He is omniscient, knowing all things, even the end from the beginning (Is. 46:10). And, He is also omnipresent, or, in other words, everywhere at once (Jer. 23:4). The biblical view of the Father is an obvious contrast to what your faith teaches about God.

We do not worship the same god.  We use many of the same words and the same names, yet, as I posted earlier, we have different definitions for those same words. For the sake of discussion in this forum, although we all have our faiths, (and we each know that ours is the one true faith) we agree that each viewpoint has equal standing with all the others. I don't think you can deny that the Mormon view of God does not line up with any other. But as much squabbling as there is between the various denominations, Christians agree on God's nature, who Jesus is, who Satan is, etc. All of those definitions fall outside that of the LDS.

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We won't be absorbed into God as we are not God. Nor will we ever be. God is God. Not created by anyone. We on the otherhand are not eternal as we had a beginning. We will however be in his presence.

I don't see where you're going with Christ praying in the garden. We've already established the three persons in God. He showed all of his persons at the baptism too. So what's your point, that because he is three persons, he can't be one? I don't understand how you can hold im to nature when he created it. He is infinite; we are not. You are placing limitations on him. I will not. Christianity does not. God has a body of flesh and bones.   Also, contrary to what the Mormon’s teach, God is immaterial, or, not material. Positively put, God is pure Spirit. God is not composed of matter, nor is He corporeal (made of body). God cannot be material because God cannot change (Mal. 3:6) and matter goes through changes; God is not a part of the material universe (Heb. 1:11-12).   God is also the creator and sustainer of the universe, “In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth” (Gen. 1:1) and God also created man from the dust of the ground (Gen 2:7). He also sustains life for “in Him we live and move and have our being” (Acts 17:28). God is omnipotent, that is, has infinite power (1 Pet. 1 :5). He is omniscient, knowing all things, even the end from the beginning (Is. 46:10). And, He is also omnipresent, or, in other words, everywhere at once (Jer. 23:4). The biblical view of the Father is an obvious contrast to what your faith teaches about God.

We do not worship the same god.  We use many of the same words and the same names, yet, as I posted earlier, we have different definitions for those same words. For the sake of discussion in this forum, although we all have our faiths, (and we each know that ours is the one true faith) we agree that each viewpoint has equal standing with all the others. I don't think you can deny that the Mormon view of God does not line up with any other. But as much squabbling as there is between the various denominations, Christians agree on God's nature, who Jesus is, who Satan is, etc. All of those definitions fall outside that of the LDS.

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I don't see why you can't see where I'm going.  If the three are the same person then why the ventriliquist act?  Why would God say that He is well pleased with Himself?  Why would Jesus pray to Himself?  Why would Stephen report that Jesus stands on the right hand of the Father if they're the same person?

The Bible doesn't use the terms that we use when talking about the Trinity in exactly the same way that we do. We learn from Scripture, however, that there is a certain respect in which God is absolutely, indivisibly one (Deuteronomy 4:35, Deuteronomy 6:4, 1 Corinthians 8:4, etc.), and that this one God is a self-aware ego who can speak and say "I." We also find that the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit are not the same, that each of them is also a self-aware ego that can refer to himself as "I," and that they relate to one another in certain ways (Isaiah 61:1, Mark 1:9-11, etc.). In this respect, therefore, God is not one, but three.

Over the centuries the Church has settled on "essence" as the best term for the way in which God is one, and on "person" as the best term for the way in which God is three. That's why we speak about three distinct persons—Father, Son, and Holy Spirit—but only one divine essence.

I  should be clear, however, that in choosing one term for God's one-ness and another for God's three-ness, I really haven't explained anything. Scripture's teaching of the Trinity remains an unsolvable logical paradox. God is infinite, we are not. He, through the Bible has revealed himself as he chose to. God's ways are higher than our ways. Though he reveals himself to us in the scriptures, we cannot fully grasp who he is. We know I don't like analogies, but here's another one; This mathmatical illustration might help to understand:

1+1+1=/=1. But 1X1X1=1! Just as multiplication is a higher form of math than addition, God's ways are higher than ours. He doesn't ask us to understand his triune nature, but he does ask us to TRUST it and leave the details to HIM. Sometimes it's best to humble ourselves and just say, "I don't know."


Regarding disciples being absorbed, you still haven't answered the question.  I'll give you the specific scripture to address.
John 17:
11And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we are.
...
22And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one:

In chapter 17, Jesus knows that he is going to the cross and prays for his desciples and asks that they be united by faith in him. Whenever we ignore God's word, we foster division in the Church and diminish our witness to the world. In verse 11  he's talking about spiritual unity in the Church. As far as "as we are", if you back to the Greek kathos it is also translated as "just as", a comparison. While the Father, Son & HS are one in being, (Deuteronomy 6:4, Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God, the LORD is one.) Christians enjoy only a similar unity as the Greek shows. This is one of those passages that has been massaged by some to argue that the Father and Son have a unity of only will and works, not of being; but I don't think you're going there.  This verse is concerned about the unity of the desciples to the faith.

Verse 22 flows much better if you start with verse 20 for understanding. if you do that, kathos shows up again in verse 21. I know your prefered translation is KJV, but  most translations that group the verses in paragraphed format group verse 20 through 26 as one paragraph. To understand a passage, we have to keep it in context.