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Link Posted: 9/24/2022 3:05:31 PM EDT
[Last Edit: CharlieR] [#1]
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Originally Posted By stone-age:


I also find it strange that Ukraine seems to be clawing forward while taking losses. They have proven to fight smart, there must be a bigger reason than just taking ground. Maybe they need this ground to put the himars in range of something very important.
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Originally Posted By stone-age:


I also find it strange that Ukraine seems to be clawing forward while taking losses. They have proven to fight smart, there must be a bigger reason than just taking ground. Maybe they need this ground to put the himars in range of something very important.


Depends when this article was written. Was it a few weeks ago?

Its a fixing attack.  Its like poker. Its a bluff.  

You cant just sit there and send a few patrols.  If you want a bluff, you gotta put down some chips.

They are sacrificing infantry to artillery to show the Russians they are serious, or really, draw attention to the bluff. In military terms, its a feint.

There was an ethics class about this I took a gazillion years ago.  In the name of OPSEC, you dont tell the attackers its a feint. They have no right to know.  They have to sell it.

The price of a decisive outcome in the East is someone has to take the hit and do the frontal assaults to draw fire, attention, and iron in the West.


Here is a classic, but simple description by one of the great military geniuses of the 20th century.

Certainly, we agree, but the situation in war will resemble that of two men fighting under similar conditions, such as in the dark, wherein a man can only locate and reconnoitre his enemy by actually touching and feeling him. Thus the man-in-the-dark resembles the commander in modern war. Let us examine the correct principles of action which a man seeking to attack an enemy in the dark would naturally adopt.

"The Man Fighting in the Dark."
1.     In the first place he must seek his enemy. Therefore, the man stretches out one arm to grope for his enemy, keeping it supple and ready to guard himself from surprise.

This may be termed the principle of "protective formation."

2.     When his outstretched arm touches his enemy, he would rapidly feel his way to a highly vulnerable spot, such as the latter's throat.

This is the principle of "reconnaissance."

3.     The man will then seize his adversary firmly by the throat, holding him at arm's length so that the latter can neither strike back effectively, nor wriggle away to avoid or parry the decisive blow.

This is the principle of "fixing."

4.     Then while his enemy's whole attention is absorbed by the menacing hand at his throat, with his other fist the man strikes his opponent from an unexpected direction in an unguarded spot, delivering out of the dark a decisive knock-out blow.

This is the principle of "decisive manoeuvre."

5.     Before his enemy can recover the man instantly follows up his advantage by taking steps to render him finally powerless.

This is the principle of full and immediate "exploitation" of success.

To follow these principles is the only sure path to victory. We can only neglect the fixing phase, if our enemy commits some mistake, such as the neglect of his own security, by which he fixes himself without our intervention and so exposes himself to our decisive blow.

Now the whole action of our man-in-the-dark can be simplified into two categories:—

Guarding and Hitting.

The man guards against two dangers. Firstly, that of personal injury from the enemy's blows; secondly, that the enemy may avoid his knock-out blow, and thus cause him to overbalance.

The man guards against these two dangers by extending one arm in front of him ready to parry and take the sting out of any blow aimed at his body; by using this arm to grope for and feel the enemy; and, finally, when he has located the enemy, by seizing the enemy so firmly at a spot (the throat) so vital that he will be forced to concentrate all his energy on its defence.

All these actions have a common object, and therefore may be grouped under one principle, termed "security."

When the man has fixed his enemy, he delivers a decisive knockout blow. It will be obvious that the harder this blow the more likely it is to be decisive. Hence the man must put his maximum possible force into it, while he only uses the necessary minimum of strength to carry out the preparatory operations. This is the principle of "Economy of Force." But the man can increase the effect of his available strength by surprising the enemy; by his speed; by the momentum or "follow through" behind his blows; by striking his opponent's most vulnerable spots; by full exploitation of every opening or advantage; by husbanding his energy; and by moving his limbs and muscles in harmony like the parts of a well-oiled machine. All these are means to promote economy of force, and therefore can be grouped under that principle.



What is going on in the West was an economy of force, a fixing operation with deception to make it look like the decisive maneuver.  But the decisive maneuver was East.  And being the fixing force sucks.
Link Posted: 9/24/2022 3:08:22 PM EDT
[#2]
Russian KA-52 shot down in Kharkiv.

This is looking to be a very bad day for Russian aviation...
Link Posted: 9/24/2022 3:14:58 PM EDT
[#3]
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Originally Posted By TheAvatar9265ft:

It's like the Molotov Ribbentrop Pact version 2.0

Take that fucker and Gerhard Schroeder and drop them into the north sea.
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And to prove you are not misogynistic, cuff Merkel to their ankles.

Link Posted: 9/24/2022 3:15:52 PM EDT
[#4]
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Originally Posted By MelGibsonEnthusiast:
Russian KA-52 shot down in Kharkiv.

This is looking to be a very bad day for Russian aviation...
View Quote

Nice kill! That smoke plume seems kind of large for a MANPAD though (?)
Link Posted: 9/24/2022 3:20:08 PM EDT
[#5]

Link Posted: 9/24/2022 3:21:10 PM EDT
[#6]
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Originally Posted By HIPPO:
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I saw this earlier and they said it was an SU-34 (Location (49.2255325, 37.7497808)) and at 8 seconds you see it fly over a smoke plume from a downed SU 24.
Link Posted: 9/24/2022 3:23:34 PM EDT
[Last Edit: BerettaGuy] [#7]
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Originally Posted By Brok3n:

Just for reference:

https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/65378/agdhdh_PNG-2537553.png
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Originally Posted By Brok3n:
Originally Posted By Schmigs:

Just for reference:

https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/65378/agdhdh_PNG-2537553.png


Russia will claim they were attacked by Finland or Estonia now...
Link Posted: 9/24/2022 3:27:30 PM EDT
[#8]
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Originally Posted By HIPPO:

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Putin is paying off the enforcers of his continuing and increasing tyranny on the Russian people.
Link Posted: 9/24/2022 3:29:04 PM EDT
[#9]
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Originally Posted By Brok3n:

Nice kill! That smoke plume seems kind of large for a MANPAD though (?)
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Originally Posted By Brok3n:
Originally Posted By MelGibsonEnthusiast:
Russian KA-52 shot down in Kharkiv.

This is looking to be a very bad day for Russian aviation...

Nice kill! That smoke plume seems kind of large for a MANPAD though (?)


It seems the Kamov was full of fuel and ammo.  



Link Posted: 9/24/2022 3:30:36 PM EDT
[#10]
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Originally Posted By BerettaGuy:



Putin is paying off the enforcers of his continuing and increasing tyranny on the Russian people.
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Originally Posted By BerettaGuy:
Originally Posted By HIPPO:




Putin is paying off the enforcers of his continuing and increasing tyranny on the Russian people.

Who would have guessed?
Link Posted: 9/24/2022 3:37:33 PM EDT
[#11]
Link Posted: 9/24/2022 3:37:50 PM EDT
[Last Edit: Mal_means_bad] [#12]
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Originally Posted By CharlieR:


Depends when this article was written. Was it a few weeks ago?

Its a fixing attack.  Its like poker. Its a bluff.  

You cant just sit there and send a few patrols.  If you want a bluff, you gotta put down some chips.

They are sacrificing infantry to artillery to show the Russians they are serious, or really, draw attention to the bluff. In military terms, its a feint.

There was an ethics class about this I took a gazillion years ago.  In the name of OPSEC, you dont tell the attackers its a feint. They have no right to know.  They have to sell it.

The price of a decisive outcome in the East is someone has to take the hit and do the frontal assaults to draw fire, attention, and iron in the West.


Here is a classic, but simple description by one of teh great geniuses of teh 20th century.




What is going on in the West was an economy of force, a fixing operation with deception to make it look like the decisive maneuver.  But the decisive maneuver was East.  And being teh fixing force sucks. This job aint for everyone.
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The Red Army was producing enough new units to save the teetering defense of Stalingrad by dribbling them in, which would have relieved the city quickest but by feeding the new men into the meat grinder to do it, and it would have pushed the Germans back gradually so they could organize a retreat.  Stalin favored this option, but Vasilevsky and Zhukov argued that they had an opportunity to keep the Germans and Romanians fixed in place while a powerful new army was assembled to attack the flanks and surround them.  The story goes that Stalin, disappointed with the performance of Stavka thus far in the war, obliquely threatened to have them shot but they held their ground and impressed him with their conviction, so he finally started handing decision making back to the Army.

Chuikov, commander of the city defenses, wasn't told.  Only a handful of replacements were sent and he was told that his men were the last, he must hold with what he had or the Soviet Union would fall.  He had to go on a summary executions spree among his officers to prevent them from fleeing and stiffen the spines of the men.  He and his men fought with a ferocious desperation that convinced the Germans that the Soviets were on their last legs.  Only after one of the few replacement officers told him that he passed through vast numbers of hidden artillery massing on the other side of the river did Chuikov realize that Kruschev and the other head honchos also weren't coming by his HQ to harangue him as much, as if they were busy elsewhere, and he realized that he had been tricked in order to trick Germany's Paulus.  He kept his mouth shut and not long after Paulus got caught completely off guard and 6th Army was annihilated.
Link Posted: 9/24/2022 3:40:22 PM EDT
[#13]

Link Posted: 9/24/2022 3:41:04 PM EDT
[#14]
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Originally Posted By HIPPO:

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Loyalty bribes.
Link Posted: 9/24/2022 3:55:37 PM EDT
[Last Edit: Jack67] [#15]
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Originally Posted By kncook:


Loyalty bribes.
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Originally Posted By kncook:
Originally Posted By HIPPO:



Loyalty bribes.


I swear, half of EVERYTHING Putin does is straight out of “The Rise and Fall of the Third Reich.” Did he read the ending, though?

(Fantistic read, btw)
Link Posted: 9/24/2022 4:00:00 PM EDT
[#16]
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Originally Posted By Ryan_Scott:

They have more than 10,000 Russians stuck in one place with limited supply lines. They want to kill or capture them.
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Then where is the UAF artillery?
Link Posted: 9/24/2022 4:02:09 PM EDT
[#17]
NYT article published today
Link Posted: 9/24/2022 4:02:53 PM EDT
[#18]
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Originally Posted By Charging_Handle:


Even if they do, trying to support forces armed with both the AK-12/74 in 5.45x39 and the AKM in 7.62x39 would have to complicate logistics even more for them.

I don't understand why they would even need to be issuing conscripts old AKM rifles. They should have enough AK-74's left over from the 1980s to easily arm a million troops with. Yet apparently they don't. Where the hell did all of them go?
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Originally Posted By Charging_Handle:
Originally Posted By ITCHY-FINGER:

I have read several times that the 7.62X39 is still used in Russia. At least by their Interior (police type) forces who sometimes prefer the X39 over the 5.45. Do they have enough in the supply chain to arm hundreds of thousands of troops? I dont know and I have doubts.


Even if they do, trying to support forces armed with both the AK-12/74 in 5.45x39 and the AKM in 7.62x39 would have to complicate logistics even more for them.

I don't understand why they would even need to be issuing conscripts old AKM rifles. They should have enough AK-74's left over from the 1980s to easily arm a million troops with. Yet apparently they don't. Where the hell did all of them go?


Link Posted: 9/24/2022 4:03:13 PM EDT
[#19]
I keep seeing all the posts suggesting that Israel puts itself on the line and I don't understand where they got the notion.
Israel doesn't owe Ukraine and its people a thing. Out of two millions of ex-USSR Israelis, about half are from Ukraine and they don't have any fond memories of the place. The fact that Ukraine elected a president with some Jewish roots was actually the result of 2014 war fatigue and the votes mostly came from the pro-russian and indifferent parts of the population. The nationalists despised him and being Jewish didn't help. Ukraine as a country never wasted a chance to vote against Israel in the UN and to sell aerospace and military technology to its enemies like Iran. Not even going to start on how gladly the local collaborationists helped the Nazis during WW2.
That orcs are now using Iranian drones on UA is some poetic justice. Let the antisemites slaughter each other as far as IL is concerned.
Link Posted: 9/24/2022 4:04:42 PM EDT
[Last Edit: Birddog15] [#20]
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Originally Posted By MelGibsonEnthusiast:
Russian KA-52 shot down in Kharkiv.

This is looking to be a very bad day for Russian aviation...
View Quote



Holy hell did that thing did a face plant.

Delicious!


ETA to fix spelling
Link Posted: 9/24/2022 4:05:23 PM EDT
[#21]
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Originally Posted By voyager3:
I keep seeing all the posts suggesting that Israel puts itself on the line and I don't understand where they got the notion.
Israel doesn't owe Ukraine and its people a thing. Out of two millions of ex-USSR Israelis, about half are from Ukraine and they don't have any fond memories of the place. The fact that Ukraine elected a president with some Jewish roots was actually the result of 2014 war fatigue and the votes mostly came from the pro-russian and indifferent parts of the population. The nationalists despised him and being Jewish didn't help. Ukraine as a country never wasted a chance to vote against Israel in the UN and to sell aerospace and military technology to its enemies like Iran. Not even going to start on how gladly the local collaborationists helped the Nazis during WW2.
That orcs are now using Iranian drones on UA is some poetic justice. Let the antisemites slaughter each other as far as IL is concerned.
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“Ukraine are Nazis” in post #3

Vying for a speed record Ivan?

Your taught to slow roll it in propaganda school I thought.
Link Posted: 9/24/2022 4:06:24 PM EDT
[#22]
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Originally Posted By Mal_means_bad:

This is like the 20th time we'll be having the exact same discussion, it shouldn't be a surprise anymore.  Where are the infinite tanks?  Where are the infinite artillery shells?  Where are the infinite rockets?  Where is the Air Force?  Where are the trucks?  Where are the radios?  Where are the satellites?  How could they be running out of rations? How could there be plywood in their plate carriers?  How could they be running out of tires?  How could they be running out of boots?  How could their reactive armor boxes be empty?  How could they be running out of.....
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Originally Posted By Mal_means_bad:
Originally Posted By Charging_Handle:
Originally Posted By ITCHY-FINGER:

I have read several times that the 7.62X39 is still used in Russia. At least by their Interior (police type) forces who sometimes prefer the X39 over the 5.45. Do they have enough in the supply chain to arm hundreds of thousands of troops? I dont know and I have doubts.


Even if they do, trying to support forces armed with both the AK-12/74 in 5.45x39 and the AKM in 7.62x39 would have to complicate logistics even more for them.

I don't understand why they would even need to be issuing conscripts old AKM rifles. They should have enough AK-74's left over from the 1980s to easily arm a million troops with. Yet apparently they don't. Where the hell did all of them go?

This is like the 20th time we'll be having the exact same discussion, it shouldn't be a surprise anymore.  Where are the infinite tanks?  Where are the infinite artillery shells?  Where are the infinite rockets?  Where is the Air Force?  Where are the trucks?  Where are the radios?  Where are the satellites?  How could they be running out of rations? How could there be plywood in their plate carriers?  How could they be running out of tires?  How could they be running out of boots?  How could their reactive armor boxes be empty?  How could they be running out of.....



You missed pallets and forklifts....







Link Posted: 9/24/2022 4:07:25 PM EDT
[#23]
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Originally Posted By rgkeller:
Then where is the UAF artillery?
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It’s there, but I’m sure many officers wish they had higher priority for its direction than they do.
Link Posted: 9/24/2022 4:16:02 PM EDT
[#24]
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Originally Posted By HIPPO:

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Damn, they're broken.  
Link Posted: 9/24/2022 4:16:13 PM EDT
[#25]
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Originally Posted By BerettaGuy:


Really? Ukraine took back more than 1,100 square miles in like three days about a week and half ago.
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Originally Posted By BerettaGuy:
Originally Posted By anonimovaca:


Why is Ukraine advancing at all though? Do they really need to take territory before the October rains? Ukraine isn’t taking back that much territory, why should hundreds of men die and dozens of vehicles be destroyed for not much land gained?

Maybe Ukraine was trying to cause another mass Russian retreat before the sham referendums. But everyone already knows they are a sham, except for pro-Russians. Doesn’t seem worth it to me to have men die just to disrupt a referendum that doesn’t matter anyway.


Really? Ukraine took back more than 1,100 square miles in like three days about a week and half ago.


The discussion here is about Kherson. The linked article says Ukraine is suffering high casualties in Kherson. Ukraine has not captured much territory in Kherson. Why continue to advance in Kherson for small gains of territory if Russia is having trouble resupplying Kherson?  
Link Posted: 9/24/2022 4:21:07 PM EDT
[#26]
Link Posted: 9/24/2022 4:21:42 PM EDT
[#27]
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Originally Posted By anonimovaca:


The discussion here is about Kherson. The linked article says Ukraine is suffering high casualties in Kherson. Ukraine has not captured much territory in Kherson. Why continue to advance in Kherson for small gains of territory if Russia is having trouble resupplying Kherson?  
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They are putting the pipe to 10k or 20k Russians who are cut off from supplies except for those brought by helicopter and boat. Now is the time to push, even if it hurts.
Link Posted: 9/24/2022 4:22:58 PM EDT
[Last Edit: Grendelsbane] [#28]
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Originally Posted By anonimovaca:


The discussion here is about Kherson. The linked article says Ukraine is suffering high casualties in Kherson. Ukraine has not captured much territory in Kherson. Why continue to advance in Kherson for small gains of territory if Russia is having trouble resupplying Kherson?  
View Quote


Go back and read the Clausewitz quote.
Link Posted: 9/24/2022 4:26:38 PM EDT
[#29]
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Originally Posted By voyager3:
I keep seeing all the posts suggesting that Israel puts itself on the line and I don't understand where they got the notion.
Israel doesn't owe Ukraine and its people a thing. Out of two millions of ex-USSR Israelis, about half are from Ukraine and they don't have any fond memories of the place. The fact that Ukraine elected a president with some Jewish roots was actually the result of 2014 war fatigue and the votes mostly came from the pro-russian and indifferent parts of the population. The nationalists despised him and being Jewish didn't help. Ukraine as a country never wasted a chance to vote against Israel in the UN and to sell aerospace and military technology to its enemies like Iran. Not even going to start on how gladly the local collaborationists helped the Nazis during WW2.
That orcs are now using Iranian drones on UA is some poetic justice. Let the antisemites slaughter each other as far as IL is concerned.
View Quote

Durrrrrrrrrr
Link Posted: 9/24/2022 4:26:56 PM EDT
[#30]
Link Posted: 9/24/2022 4:28:59 PM EDT
[#31]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By AlmightyTallest:



The key to these bigger systems with much better optics and radar is that yes, you can keep them hundreds of miles behind the front lines, with say an S-300 and other air defense systems underneath it while it detects for the the user all the enemy units from over 30,000 feet up and can zoom in with thermal imaging systems to make positive ID on targets and threats.  It can also stay up for over a day, continuously monitoring the front line.

It can laser designate targets and guide precision weapons, laser and GPS.  It would be very useful.
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@almightyTallest

I'm astonished at your breadth of knowledge on armaments and capabilities.

Your input has made this a very informative and interesting thread; and one very habit forming.

Would you mind giving me a 10 second rundown on how you acquired all this info.

I'm assuming a military contractor with some possible military experience.

Just share what you're comfortable sharing.

Same goes for

@capta
@r0n

Thanks for your contributions.
Link Posted: 9/24/2022 4:29:04 PM EDT
[#32]
Link Posted: 9/24/2022 4:29:38 PM EDT
[#33]
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Originally Posted By HIPPO:
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I'm pretty skeptical of this claim. The Ukrainians are struggling to arm and train the amount of manpower they have now. Without a massive uptick in Western arms and training, I can't see that feasibly happening at all.
Link Posted: 9/24/2022 4:30:37 PM EDT
[#34]



‼️In Melitopol, mobilization orders are being issued to men of draft age and military tickets are being distributed. 📯 Mostly those who managed to vote in the so-called "referendum"
https://t.me/operativnoZSU


Rostov region



https://www.tiktok.com/@aligator3091/video/7146661937231744258?is_copy_url=1&is_from_webapp=v1&item_id=7146661937231744258



Lavrov called the South China Sea the next possible line of defense of NATO
https://ria.ru/20220924/nato-1819240685.html

UN, Sep 24 – RIA Novosti. The next line of NATO's defense may pass through the South China Sea, Russian Foreign Minister Sergei Lavrov said at a press conference.

He noted that NATO was constantly moving eastwards after the disappearance. USSR, according to him, NATO is already "defending itself hundreds and thousands of kilometers from the line that was clear to everyone."

"They just decide: now we will defend ourselves here. They announced that NATO is now responsible for the security of the Indo-Pacific region, that is, the next line of defense of NATO will be the South China Sea, I have no doubt," he said.

Link Posted: 9/24/2022 4:31:22 PM EDT
[#35]
Link Posted: 9/24/2022 4:32:11 PM EDT
[#36]
@CharlieR

It takes a brave man to be a coward in the Red Army

I don't think this could be understated. Thank you for the phrasing.
Link Posted: 9/24/2022 4:34:48 PM EDT
[#37]
Russian mercenaries prepare false-flag operations on Belarusian-Ukrainian border



By KATERYNA TYSHCHENKO for Ukrainian Pravda – SATURDAY, 24 SEPTEMBER 2022, 16:19

Mercenaries from Liga, the Russian private military company (PMC), have arrived in Minsk (Belarus). They might be involved in staging a false-flag operation on the Ukrainian-Belarusian border.

Source: National Resistance Centre created by Special Operations Forces of the Armed Forces of Ukraine

Details: The National Resistance Centre cites the Belarusian resistance movement, which says that 130 Russian Liga PMC mercenaries arrived in Minsk with weapons and ammunition on 20 September.

On 22 September, 300 sets of Ukrainian military uniforms, which were seized from warehouses in Kherson Oblast, were delivered to GardService, a Belarusian security company which is being used as the base for the Russian mercenaries.

Quote: "Possible subversive operations are expected in the vicinity of Pinsk, Ivanovo and Kobrin. Such operations play into the hands of Moscow, which seeks to involve additional forces in the war [in Ukraine], in particular [the Armed Forces of the Republic of] Belarus.

Details: The National Resistance Centre notes that GardService is more than a private security company. It is, in fact, considered to be the first PMC created in Belarus. It was created by a special decree issued by Aleksandr Lukashenko, the self-proclaimed President of Belarus, in 2019. The company is based at the former training centre for Belarusian special forces.

Link Posted: 9/24/2022 4:37:47 PM EDT
[#38]
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Originally Posted By HIPPO:
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Link Posted: 9/24/2022 4:43:39 PM EDT
[#39]
Luhanks Governor Haidai

You don't need a passport, we'll call you, we'll come home with a machine - the results of the first day of the pseudo-referendum in Luhansk region. Alchevsk almost ran out of men. Those who were found were mobilized. Even with armor. One of the best metallurgical enterprises of Ukraine - Alchevsk metallurgical plant - has stopped production. Because there is no one to work for. However, there is someone to vote for. At the front, a resident of Alchevsk, either already captured or killed, will somehow vote. Perhaps telepathically - the voice will be taken into account. In order to increase the turnout, employees of "election commissions" accompanied by armed servicemen of the Russian Federation force residents to vote directly in their places of residence. They stop on the street. The objection that he does not have a passport with him is answered succinctly: "And you don't need one - we already know you." CallingEmployees who refuse to report to the "precinct" are threatened with dismissal. They even find those who left for Russia. They "invite" to vote there as well.
https://t.me/luhanskaVTSA/5963
Link Posted: 9/24/2022 4:45:22 PM EDT
[#40]
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Originally Posted By MelGibsonEnthusiast:

I'm pretty skeptical of this claim. The Ukrainians are struggling to arm and train the amount of manpower they have now. Without a massive uptick in Western arms and training, I can't see that feasibly happening at all.
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Originally Posted By MelGibsonEnthusiast:
Originally Posted By HIPPO:

I'm pretty skeptical of this claim. The Ukrainians are struggling to arm and train the amount of manpower they have now. Without a massive uptick in Western arms and training, I can't see that feasibly happening at all.




I agree.  That looks more like political posturing than something realistic.

I expect Russia is about to find out that it takes way more than just a bunch of people to make an effective army.  The same goes for Ukraine too.

Regardless, whatever Ukraine needs to keep expanding its capabilities, we would be wise to supply.


Link Posted: 9/24/2022 4:46:45 PM EDT
[#41]
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Originally Posted By Prime:

Lavrov called the South China Sea the next possible line of defense of NATO
https://ria.ru/20220924/nato-1819240685.html

UN, Sep 24   RIA Novosti. The next line of NATO's defense may pass through the South China Sea, Russian Foreign Minister Sergei Lavrov said at a press conference.

He noted that NATO was constantly moving eastwards after the disappearance. USSR, according to him, NATO is already "defending itself hundreds and thousands of kilometers from the line that was clear to everyone."

"They just decide: now we will defend ourselves here. They announced that NATO is now responsible for the security of the Indo-Pacific region, that is, the next line of defense of NATO will be the South China Sea, I have no doubt," he said.

View Quote
This is not entirely false, June 2022 NATO planning documents for the first time identified China as hostile and said NATO would start doing something vague about it.  Freedom of navigation was on the list of stuff they'd do something about, and that's a South China Sea issue.  2022 Strategic Concept

It wasn't their highest priority, mind you:

13. The People's Republic of China's (PRC) stated ambitions and coercive policieschallenge our interests, security and values. The PRC employs a broad range of political, economic and military tools to increase its global footprint and project power, while remaining opaque about its strategy, intentions and military build-up. The PRC's malicious hybrid and cyber operations and its confrontational rhetoric and disinformation target Allies and harm Alliance security. The PRC seeks to control key technological and industrial sectors, critical infrastructure, and strategic materials and supply chains. It uses its economic leverage to create strategic dependencies and enhance its influence. It strives to subvert the rules-based international order, including in the space, cyber and maritime domains. The deepening strategic partnership between the People's Republic of China and the Russian Federation and their mutually reinforcing attempts to undercut the rules-based international order run counter to our values and interests.

14. We remain open to constructive engagement with the PRC, including to build reciprocal transparency, with a view to safeguarding the Alliance's security interests. We will work together responsibly, as Allies, to address the systemic challenges posed by the PRC to Euro-Atlantic security and ensure NATO's enduring ability to guarantee the defence and security of Allies. We will boost our shared awareness, enhance our resilience and preparedness, and protect against the PRC's coercive tactics and efforts to divide the Alliance. We will stand up for our shared values and the rules-based international order, including freedom of navigation.

Link Posted: 9/24/2022 4:48:55 PM EDT
[#42]
🔥🇺🇸🇷🇺🇺🇦 LPR. The Ukrainian Armed Forces hit Yenakiyevo with an American AGM-88 HARM missile.


https://t.me/vorposte/27785


Link Posted: 9/24/2022 4:49:02 PM EDT
[#43]
China is out of the traditional scope of NATO.
Link Posted: 9/24/2022 4:51:57 PM EDT
[#44]
Link Posted: 9/24/2022 4:52:12 PM EDT
[#45]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By Grendelsbane:


Go back and read the Clausewitz quote.
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Originally Posted By Grendelsbane:
Originally Posted By anonimovaca:


The discussion here is about Kherson. The linked article says Ukraine is suffering high casualties in Kherson. Ukraine has not captured much territory in Kherson. Why continue to advance in Kherson for small gains of territory if Russia is having trouble resupplying Kherson?  


Go back and read the Clausewitz quote.


“Originally Posted By K0UA:

Ok, well the goal is not a stand up fight in Kherson, the goal is to cut off the supplies and starve them out. It makes no sense to fight their better forces that are dug in. It makes sense to keep cutting their supply lines in the rear. At least that makes sense to me.”

This is what I was replying to.

From this article.

https://archive.ph/Yl6WG
Link Posted: 9/24/2022 4:53:45 PM EDT
[Last Edit: Jack67] [#46]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By anonimovaca:


The discussion here is about Kherson. The linked article says Ukraine is suffering high casualties in Kherson. Ukraine has not captured much territory in Kherson. Why continue to advance in Kherson for small gains of territory if Russia is having trouble resupplying Kherson?  
View Quote


Check a map, you will see why controlling Kherson is desirable.

I have also read that Russia has made significant domestic propaganda point at home wrt occupying Kherson - “watermelons” and all. I do not pretend to understand the cultural significance of the Kherson occupation in psychological terms, but I’m told it is a thing. Taking it back presumably may hold a significant psychological effect about support for the war within Russia. That’s just an added speculation beyond the very obvious strategic reasons.

The UAF is making consistent progress and presumably finds it a strategically beneficial trade-off. We don’t know the casualty figures to enable making a judgment on that.
Link Posted: 9/24/2022 4:54:01 PM EDT
[#47]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By Jack67:


I swear, half of EVERYTHING Putin does is straight out of “The Rise and Fall of the Third Reich.” Did he read the ending, though?

(Fantistic read, btw)
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I read it years ago.
I also noticed that it also resembles The US, Right Now.
Jan 6 equates the Reichstag Fire for starters.
I told the son of a Cousin to look up the book and re-read it.
Link Posted: 9/24/2022 4:57:13 PM EDT
[#48]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By Wreckshooter:


The Grey Eagle can do none of those things from hundreds of miles behind the front lines.
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Originally Posted By Wreckshooter:
Originally Posted By AlmightyTallest:



The key to these bigger systems with much better optics and radar is that yes, you can keep them hundreds of miles behind the front lines, with say an S-300 and other air defense systems underneath it while it detects for the the user all the enemy units from over 30,000 feet up and can zoom in with thermal imaging systems to make positive ID on targets and threats.  It can also stay up for over a day, continuously monitoring the front line.

It can laser designate targets and guide precision weapons, laser and GPS.  It would be very useful.


The Grey Eagle can do none of those things from hundreds of miles behind the front lines.


I'm just catching up, did not have my coffee.  Dozens of miles behind the lines.
Link Posted: 9/24/2022 4:59:05 PM EDT
[#49]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By GiggleSmith:
I read it years ago.
I also noticed that it also resembles The US, Right Now.
Jan 6 equates the Reichstag Fire for starters.
I told the son of a Cousin to look up the book and re-read it.
View Quote


You have a disturbing point, and it’s occurred to me, too.

I probably haven’t read the book in 10 years, but I probably read it carefully about three times in the 10 or 15 years before that. It’s an amazing work of history, and the lessons are valuable.
Link Posted: 9/24/2022 5:09:23 PM EDT
[#50]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By MelGibsonEnthusiast:

I'm pretty skeptical of this claim. The Ukrainians are struggling to arm and train the amount of manpower they have now. Without a massive uptick in Western arms and training, I can't see that feasibly happening at all.
View Quote


That’s a top-line, all-in number and it could be done over extended time in an extreme scenario. He’s not saying they will do it this year, or promising it.  He is  I think just stating the upper Ukr possibility # as a counter to hysteria about Russian numbers in some less informed circles.
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