User Panel
User Panel
User Panel
|
Posted: 7/3/2023 1:52:59 PM EDT
[#1]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By daemon734: I'm providing the same level of information sharing and discussion as anyone else in this thread. The only difference is its objective, which means it will be immediately challenged as a pro Russia stance. As it already is. I'm just curious as to how many times you guys can be proven wrong before you even attempt to take an objective look. So, should we be giving Ukraine more missiles? Missiles with longer range? Both? |
|
|
|
|
Posted: 7/3/2023 1:53:03 PM EDT
[#2]
|
|
|
|
USA
|
Posted: 7/3/2023 1:54:28 PM EDT
[#3]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By daemon734: Is there Ukrainian A2AD on the FLOT? Why not? How's that working out for them? Russia also doesn't have that. As a result this has become an artillery war, rather than a maneuver war. Russia seems to be losing that. |
|
|
|
Posted: 7/3/2023 1:54:34 PM EDT
[#4]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By ITCHY-FINGER: I think you have summed it up well. My theory is that Xiden wants this war to go slow and steady without any quick UA victory and keeps Zelensky on the hook and dependent on HIM so he doesnt complain or bring up Biden Hunter and DNC shenanigans in Ukraine. Zelensky ran on an anti-corruption platform and Biden was even named as a suspect in a corruption probe. Had Trump been re-elected, I think a LOT of dirt would have come out. All of that disappeared and the Bidens need to keep a lid on it. "Z...dont bite the hand that feeds you, even a little aid is better than none" Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By ITCHY-FINGER: Originally Posted By Shadyman: If the US and NATO would give the Ukrainian military what it’s been asking for to hit way behind the Russian lines, this war will be over quite soon. But for some reason the Biden administration is scared. I think you have summed it up well. My theory is that Xiden wants this war to go slow and steady without any quick UA victory and keeps Zelensky on the hook and dependent on HIM so he doesnt complain or bring up Biden Hunter and DNC shenanigans in Ukraine. Zelensky ran on an anti-corruption platform and Biden was even named as a suspect in a corruption probe. Had Trump been re-elected, I think a LOT of dirt would have come out. All of that disappeared and the Bidens need to keep a lid on it. "Z...dont bite the hand that feeds you, even a little aid is better than none" That makes a LOT of sense. Biden doesn’t give out any “favors” unless he profits personally. With the upswell in efforts to fully investigate and prosecute in the House, I hope that Zelensky encourages relevant private parties to back channel share the real dirt from the oligarch or Prosecutors side. Because Austin and Blinken seem ready to push ahead on long range weapons, but Biden with his bitch Milley seem determined to withhold. “Thinking about it” is a euphemism for “grease my palm” or as you point out “don’t spill the beans”. |
|
|
|
|
Posted: 7/3/2023 1:56:13 PM EDT
[#5]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Easterner: I would think the site would like to avoid such things as well. I guess it's cool to bash US servicemen that believe in standing up for those that need help. Classless fucks Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Easterner: Originally Posted By jungatheart: Originally Posted By ludder093: Pretty disgusting thread in gd about a marine that died in Ukraine. I suggest you avoid it. thanks I would think the site would like to avoid such things as well. I guess it's cool to bash US servicemen that believe in standing up for those that need help. Classless fucks Not a good look for a firearms site with a ton of vets and active duty. Near Independence Day no less. |
|
|
|
|
Posted: 7/3/2023 1:56:50 PM EDT
[Last Edit: daemon734]
[#6]
Disengaging
|
|
|
|
|
Posted: 7/3/2023 1:58:33 PM EDT
[Last Edit: daemon734]
[#7]
Disengaging
|
|
|
|
|
Posted: 7/3/2023 2:00:45 PM EDT
[#8]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Prime: I don't think your closing statement is all that controversial, although I'd say we know even less about Russian industrial capacity than we do about what Ukraine is being given. You do tend to present things as "Patriot vs Shahed or nothing" which isn't entirely true, but you're highlighting a very real problem. We'll have to just wait and see.
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Prime: Originally Posted By daemon734: I don't have an agenda, this just supports facts that I have been trying to convey in this thread multiple times. Facts that are consistently denied but always end up becoming proven. Context doesn't change a finite resource. Patriot is the most finite resource they have. If deep strike OWAs are threatening the launchers, they need to make corrections to either displace more often or defend them better. They do not have the assets to waste. This war will be won or lost in the deep fires game, and Ukraine is currently losing that. The band aid holding it together is Patriot. That band aid will be ripped off a lot sooner than most think. I don't think your closing statement is all that controversial, although I'd say we know even less about Russian industrial capacity than we do about what Ukraine is being given. You do tend to present things as "Patriot vs Shahed or nothing" which isn't entirely true, but you're highlighting a very real problem. We'll have to just wait and see.
Germany is recieving the updated MSE interceptors for their Patriot systems, so I'm guessing they handed off the older PAC-3 CRI to Ukraine. https://news.lockheedmartin.com/2023-05-11-lockheed-martins-pac-3-mse-interceptor-launched-from-german-patriot-launcher MBDA Deutschland partnered with Lockheed Martin to perform the necessary modifications of the launcher to enable the integration of the PAC-3 MSE missile. The test was a critical final step before Lockheed Martin delivers the first shipment of PAC-3 MSEs to Germany. “Delivering PAC-3 MSE to Germany will enhance German air defense capabilities and increase lethality against evolving threats,” said Dennis Goege, Lockheed Martin Vice President of Central and East Europe. “The recent flight test proves that PAC-3 MSE is ready for deployment in Germany.” The U.S. and German governments reached an agreement in 2019 for the procurement of PAC-3 MSE. Germany already employed the PAC-3 Cost Reduction Initiative (CRI) interceptor in their air defense arsenal. |
|
|
|
|
Posted: 7/3/2023 2:01:07 PM EDT
[#9]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By ITCHY-FINGER: True. I dont see Ukraine taking Crimea head on. Too costly. Both the Germans then the Soviets had a hard time taking Crimea in WWII. I can see a sustained bombing campaign though making life miserable for the occupiers and civilians would flee effectively making Crimea worthless to Russia. In the end I think Crimea will be decided through negotiations. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By ITCHY-FINGER: Originally Posted By fadedsun: All of those withdrawn troops manning a much shortened line in Crimea would make it very, very hard to penetrate. It would be a stalemate but a Ukrainian victory. True. I dont see Ukraine taking Crimea head on. Too costly. Both the Germans then the Soviets had a hard time taking Crimea in WWII. I can see a sustained bombing campaign though making life miserable for the occupiers and civilians would flee effectively making Crimea worthless to Russia. In the end I think Crimea will be decided through negotiations. If Ukraine can take Mariupol or any coastal portion on Azov Sea they can starve out troops on Crimea. Not literally starve, but make them isolated so they cannot contribute to war effort and gradual become combat ineffective. More importantly, if UA can reach the Azov coast, they can stop shipping to and from Rostov! The only warm water port in Russia. |
|
|
|
|
Posted: 7/3/2023 2:02:42 PM EDT
[Last Edit: daemon734]
[#10]
Disengaging
|
|
|
|
|
Posted: 7/3/2023 2:03:27 PM EDT
[#11]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By daemon734: Lol, so you believe you know all about the full operational picture about everything else via social media, but won't accept what they have to say about ADA on the FLOT. You were also one of the people that have been consistently convinced they aren't dumb enough to burn Patriots on low value targets. You may want to sit this one out before you are thwarted by a couple 5 minute searches. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By daemon734: Originally Posted By AROKIE: Your issue is that you think you are right, and yet you have proved nothing. You stated your opinion. And others stated there's. No one here knows as they are not there. Really no point in hammering away trying to force opinions down someone's throat just because others don't see it like you do Lol, so you believe you know all about the full operational picture about everything else via social media, but won't accept what they have to say about ADA on the FLOT. You were also one of the people that have been consistently convinced they aren't dumb enough to burn Patriots on low value targets. You may want to sit this one out before you are thwarted by a couple 5 minute searches. I stated just the oposite..I said Noone knows..not even you.. also stated uts pointless be triggered by someone with opossing views. You just keep hammering away with your opinion thinking others should adopt your way of thinking and move on. Lots of people have differing opinions on things in this thread. |
|
|
|
|
Posted: 7/3/2023 2:06:19 PM EDT
[#12]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By daemon734: Russia isn't on the offense right now and their defense is completely managed within Ukrainian space. If you need me to break down why that matters just ask. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By daemon734: Originally Posted By PolarBear416: Russia also doesn't have that. As a result this has become an artillery war, rather than a maneuver war. Russia seems to be losing that. Russia isn't on the offense right now and their defense is completely managed within Ukrainian space. If you need me to break down why that matters just ask. For the most part, Russia's offensive capacity seems to be shot. It remains to be seen how much more of their territory the Ukrainians can liberate, especially given how long the Russians have had to dig in and how difficult conducting combined arms breaches is for even Western militaries. However, I doubt the Russians are going much further. Their winter offensive accomplished nothing almost across the board, other than slowly grinding away to a victory in Bakhmut. I certainly think that advances like those the Russians carried out during the Donbas salient campaign last summer are far, far beyond their reach. I honestly think that taking the entirety of the Donbas may be slowly slipping away for them at this point. |
|
|
|
|
Posted: 7/3/2023 2:06:37 PM EDT
[Last Edit: daemon734]
[#13]
Disengaging
|
|
|
|
|
Posted: 7/3/2023 2:07:49 PM EDT
[#14]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By daemon734: I'm not saying to get worked up over it at all. I'm saying we have undeniable proof that it is occurring, which was flatly denied previously. With that said, magazine depth is magazine depth regardless of whether you approve of the ratio. We've had this discussion previous to the Patriot employment where the general consensus was that targeting drones with missiles was a good thing yet now that the Ukrainians have had zero ADA supporting their offensive you guys don't seem to be able to make any correlations. But here's a spoiler alert, it's happening again, just with more expensive and harder to replace missiles. They should save them and let the apartment buildings get bombed. The shouldn't use them to protect lives. I get it. Because if they run out, the apartment building will get bombed. |
|
|
|
|
Posted: 7/3/2023 2:10:29 PM EDT
[#15]
|
|
|
|
|
Posted: 7/3/2023 2:10:56 PM EDT
[#16]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By lorazepam: They should save them and let the apartment buildings get bombed. The shouldn't use them to protect lives. I get it. Because if they run out, the apartment building will get bombed. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By lorazepam: Originally Posted By daemon734: I'm not saying to get worked up over it at all. I'm saying we have undeniable proof that it is occurring, which was flatly denied previously. With that said, magazine depth is magazine depth regardless of whether you approve of the ratio. We've had this discussion previous to the Patriot employment where the general consensus was that targeting drones with missiles was a good thing yet now that the Ukrainians have had zero ADA supporting their offensive you guys don't seem to be able to make any correlations. But here's a spoiler alert, it's happening again, just with more expensive and harder to replace missiles. They should save them and let the apartment buildings get bombed. The shouldn't use them to protect lives. I get it. Because if they run out, the apartment building will get bombed. The targeting of civilians and infrastructure in urban population centers could very well be a means to draw Ukrainian air defense assets away from the front. |
|
|
|
|
Posted: 7/3/2023 2:11:14 PM EDT
[Last Edit: DK-Prof]
[#17]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By daemon734: ... Context doesn't change a finite resource. Patriot is the most finite resource they have. If deep strike OWAs are threatening the launchers, they need to make corrections to either displace more often or defend them better. They do not have the assets to waste. This war will be won or lost in the deep fires game, and Ukraine is currently losing that. The band aid holding it together is Patriot. That band aid will be ripped off a lot sooner than most think. I definitely feel like there might be a bit of a "Whatever, let's just use the Patriots for everything." attitude among the Ukraine leadership. If it works, that's great - but if they run out because they are burning them up on cheap Iranian drones, then it's going to bite them on the ass eventually. On the other hand, if they don't have other solutions (like Gepards protecting all their sites), then it's easy to see how they end up with that mindset. So while I can see that it's potentially a huge problem on the horizon, I am not sure how much I blame them. I also wonder how centralized their decision making is. Do they have very clear policies on what to use an expensive Patriot for, and what not to use it for - or is it just up to the local unit, and they launch at EVERYTHING that comes inside their range? I think these are important and legitimate questions, and it's valuable to hear them voiced. |
|
|
|
USA
|
Posted: 7/3/2023 2:11:49 PM EDT
[#18]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By daemon734: Russia isn't on the offense right now and their defense is completely managed within Ukrainian space. If you need me to break down why that matters just ask. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By daemon734: Originally Posted By PolarBear416: Russia also doesn't have that. As a result this has become an artillery war, rather than a maneuver war. Russia seems to be losing that. Russia isn't on the offense right now and their defense is completely managed within Ukrainian space. If you need me to break down why that matters just ask. Which is why it's an artillery war. You are mistakenly thinking of offense in maneuver war terms, which is US doctrine but assumes air superiority. Russian air is also incapable of effectively attacking Ukrainian assault forces so long as they stay within that contested air space, and to the extent they try they have to stay low resulting in inaccurate fire. So the Ukrainians are relatively free to push back the Russians, free of Russian airstrikes, and they are. Your point just means this war isn't going to be fought according to US maneuver war doctrine, which assumes air superiority. We are not going to see an armored column break through and drive to the Azov sea: it would be picked off by Russian attack helicopters. Instead once a breakthrough occurs Ukraine will advance by 1-2 kilometers at most and then consolidate by moving artillery and air up accordingly, pushing the Russian air defense and artillery back while moving the Ukrainian assets forward bit by bit. This is going to be grinding trench warfare, not rapidly moving armored columns. |
|
|
|
Posted: 7/3/2023 2:12:47 PM EDT
[#19]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By daemon734: I don't have an agenda, this just supports facts that I have been trying to convey in this thread multiple times. Facts that are consistently denied but always end up becoming proven. Context doesn't change a finite resource. Patriot is the most finite resource they have. If deep strike OWAs are threatening the launchers, they need to make corrections to either displace more often or defend them better. They do not have the assets to waste. This war will be won or lost in the deep fires game, and Ukraine is currently losing that. The band aid holding it together is Patriot. That band aid will be ripped off a lot sooner than most think. Gee, if only they had long range fires to reduce the missile threat. "We are considering it" has been the mantra from the US. At least the euros are stepping up with what they have. |
|
|
|
|
Posted: 7/3/2023 2:13:18 PM EDT
[Last Edit: daemon734]
[#20]
Disengaging
|
|
|
|
|
Posted: 7/3/2023 2:13:29 PM EDT
[#21]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By daemon734: I'm providing the same level of information sharing and discussion as anyone else in this thread. The only difference is its objective, which means it will be immediately challenged as a pro Russia stance. As it already is. I'm just curious as to how many times you guys can be proven wrong before you even attempt to take an objective look. So, should we be giving Ukraine more missiles? Missiles with longer range? Both? |
|
|
|
|
Posted: 7/3/2023 2:13:47 PM EDT
[#22]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By daemon734: I don't have an agenda, this just supports facts that I have been trying to convey in this thread multiple times. Facts that are consistently denied but always end up becoming proven. Context doesn't change a finite resource. Patriot is the most finite resource they have. If deep strike OWAs are threatening the launchers, they need to make corrections to either displace more often or defend them better. They do not have the assets to waste. This war will be won or lost in the deep fires game, and Ukraine is currently losing that. The band aid holding it together is Patriot. That band aid will be ripped off a lot sooner than most think. 
|
|
|
|
|
Posted: 7/3/2023 2:13:57 PM EDT
[#23]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By ITCHY-FINGER: I guess better late than never. I'm VERY disappointed it took so long. Really, Hungary should be bad-mouthing Russia more than anyone from past experience. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By ITCHY-FINGER: Originally Posted By MFP_4073: there is a strong desire to be 'not wrong'; ie on the winning side my assessment is 'they' are realizing how this is going to end and they want to be able in 6 months to say -- 'see we knew this was happening...' I guess better late than never. I'm VERY disappointed it took so long. Really, Hungary should be bad-mouthing Russia more than anyone from past experience. Good to hear. It isn’t like Russia holds all the cards. As Europe found, if you really want to, you can find alternatives and often that works out even better in the long run. And oil pipelines can’t just be shut down indefinitely without huge costs, so Russia has an interest in keeping it flowing too. In the end I think Hungary needs to realize buying from a terrorist state is a very bad choice no matter how cheap. There are alternatives. Yes, buying from non-terrorists will be more expensive. But it is a moral as well as practical decision. Do I buy 1/2 off from the criminal and risk legal problems as well as definite moral complicity? Or do I pay legitimate competitive price and relax in moral and legal confidence. I hope they come around and enjoy the friendship of the V4 especially and I know Ukraine would be a strong friend in return. |
|
|
|
|
Posted: 7/3/2023 2:15:20 PM EDT
[#24]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By AlmightyTallest:
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/F0HZhgIXwAIIKL7?format=jpg&name=small Good. BTW, none of those Chechen commanders are missing meals! |
|
|
|
|
Posted: 7/3/2023 2:16:50 PM EDT
[#25]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By daemon734: Lol, so you believe you know all about the full operational picture about everything else via social media, but won't accept what they have to say about ADA on the FLOT. You were also one of the people that have been consistently convinced they aren't dumb enough to burn Patriots on low value targets. You may want to sit this one out before you are thwarted by a couple 5 minute searches. Bring those 5 minute searches. What insider info do you have that we don't? |
|
|
|
|
Posted: 7/3/2023 2:17:40 PM EDT
[#26]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By daemon734: Is there Ukrainian A2AD on the FLOT? Why not? How's that working out for them? Valid point. Without air superiority, they can't keep back Russian tactical aviation, or do as effective a job of their own (I don't consider lobbing unguided Zunis to be effective). I have seen APKWS being used in recent videos, but that is a poor substitute to FW or RW attack, especially to support and advance. |
|
|
|
|
Posted: 7/3/2023 2:19:34 PM EDT
[#27]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By thehun06: Man ... seeing how the Ukies are equipped vs the Russians ... Russia should be ASHAMED of sending their man ill-equipped as they are ... Having said that ... Ukies weren't equipped well either prior to 2022 ... The problem for Russia is Russia: started well equipped, ending barefoot Ukraine: Started barefoot, ending as best military in Europe and Russia. |
|
|
|
|
Posted: 7/3/2023 2:19:36 PM EDT
[#28]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By lorazepam: Bring those 5 minute searches. What insider info do you have that we don't? Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By lorazepam: Originally Posted By daemon734: Lol, so you believe you know all about the full operational picture about everything else via social media, but won't accept what they have to say about ADA on the FLOT. You were also one of the people that have been consistently convinced they aren't dumb enough to burn Patriots on low value targets. You may want to sit this one out before you are thwarted by a couple 5 minute searches. Bring those 5 minute searches. What insider info do you have that we don't? He can't help himself, first shitting on the dead Marine thread and then bringing his stupid shilling here too. |
|
|
|
|
Posted: 7/3/2023 2:20:40 PM EDT
[#29]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By daemon734: I know they have been using lots of strategic missiles on low value targets and are now facing major issues because of this. You were convinced this was not true. I was correct. There seems to be a trend line here. How many have they used? What constitutes a low value target? If your family was the target of one of these "low value targets" would you let it pass and save the missile that could have shot it down? The russians are not firing at mil targets. |
|
|
|
|
Posted: 7/3/2023 2:21:46 PM EDT
[Last Edit: daemon734]
[#30]
Disengaging
|
|
|
|
|
Posted: 7/3/2023 2:21:55 PM EDT
[#31]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By daemon734: That 64 is most likely kicking the can another 6 weeks or so, and its also missiles Germany did not have available to release, which is the case for any patriot reload from any country at this point. Its absolutely not solely tied to drones, the drones are the (offensively) sustainable problem that put them in the situation they are in now. 🤷♂️ I am not as confidently knowledgeable about every country’s Patriot stocks. They’re also doing pretty well with S-300, and that’s not mentioning NASAMS, IRIS-T, Gepard, and MANPADS.  |
|
|
|
|
Posted: 7/3/2023 2:23:02 PM EDT
[#32]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By AlmightyTallest: Germany is recieving the updated MSE interceptors for their Patriot systems, so I'm guessing they handed off the older PAC-3 CRI to Ukraine. https://news.lockheedmartin.com/2023-05-11-lockheed-martins-pac-3-mse-interceptor-launched-from-german-patriot-launcher Cool. Interesting to me was that it was contingent on a ~$4B Arrow-3 purchase.
|
|
|
|
|
Posted: 7/3/2023 2:23:50 PM EDT
[#33]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By daemon734: We would just run out of those they sane way we have with every other PGM at this point. There's a reason we have been so hesitant, Patriot just proves that concern was valid. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By daemon734: Originally Posted By Logcutter: So, should we be giving Ukraine more missiles? Missiles with longer range? Both? We would just run out of those they sane way we have with every other PGM at this point. There's a reason we have been so hesitant, Patriot just proves that concern was valid. So, you don't think long range precision rockets would be helpful? |
|
|
|
|
Posted: 7/3/2023 2:24:33 PM EDT
[#34]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By DK-Prof: I definitely feel like there might be a bit of a "Whatever, let's just use the Patriots for everything." attitude among the Ukraine leadership. If it works, that's great - but if they run out because they are burning them up on cheap Iranian drones, then it's going to bite them on the ass eventually. On the other hand, if they don't have other solutions (like Gepards protecting all their sites), then it's easy to see how they end up with that mindset. So while I can see that it's potentially a huge problem on the horizon, I am not sure how much I blame them. I also wonder how centralized their decision making is. Do they have very clear policies on what to use an expensive Patriot for, and what not to use it for - or is it just up to the local unit, and they launch at EVERYTHING that comes inside their range? I think these are important and legitimate questions, and it's valuable to hear them voiced. "If we are all thinking alike, then none of us is thinking at all" Keep it civil guys, but keep it coming. This thread has been an education on FA and ADA. |
|
|
|
|
Posted: 7/3/2023 2:25:12 PM EDT
[Last Edit: daemon734]
[#35]
Disengaging
|
|
|
|
|
Posted: 7/3/2023 2:25:45 PM EDT
[#36]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Jaehaerys: The targeting of civilians and infrastructure in urban population centers could very well be a means to draw Ukrainian air defense assets away from the front. They have been doing it from the beginning. It is not a new tactic. The biggest issue I see is after being disarmed by the west since 1991, not just nukes, they are dependent on the west for pretty much everything. |
|
|
|
USA
|
Posted: 7/3/2023 2:27:18 PM EDT
[Last Edit: PolarBear416]
[#37]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By GTLandser: Valid point. Without air superiority, they can't keep back Russian tactical aviation, or do as effective a job of their own (I don't consider lobbing unguided Zunis to be effective). I have seen APKWS being used in recent videos, but that is a poor substitute to FW or RW attack, especially to support and advance. The Russians aren't in any better situation, their air assets were repeatedly shot down when they got too close to the front. Now that stay low and far back which limits their ability to provide support at the front. So what happens is an artillery battle, the goal of which is a slow advance that forces the other side to move their air defense further back, moving the contested air space back. It's more like WW1 than WW2. |
|
|
|
Posted: 7/3/2023 2:27:41 PM EDT
[Last Edit: daemon734]
[#38]
Disengaging
|
|
|
|
|
Posted: 7/3/2023 2:28:05 PM EDT
[Last Edit: Dracster]
[#39]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Prime: I am not as confidently knowledgeable about every country's Patriot stocks. They're also doing pretty well with S-300, and that's not mentioning NASAMS, IRIS-T, Gepard, and MANPADS. https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/203719/IMG_3336-2872349.jpg Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Prime: Originally Posted By daemon734: That 64 is most likely kicking the can another 6 weeks or so, and its also missiles Germany did not have available to release, which is the case for any patriot reload from any country at this point. Its absolutely not solely tied to drones, the drones are the (offensively) sustainable problem that put them in the situation they are in now. I am not as confidently knowledgeable about every country's Patriot stocks. They're also doing pretty well with S-300, and that's not mentioning NASAMS, IRIS-T, Gepard, and MANPADS. https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/203719/IMG_3336-2872349.jpg The S-300s are an even more finite resource than Patriots unless they have someone out in the wild, wild, West making reloads. |
|
|
|
|
Posted: 7/3/2023 2:28:30 PM EDT
[#40]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By weptek911: They can re supply by sea. Remember the battle for the island of Malta in WWII? Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By weptek911: Originally Posted By 1Andy2: Right but... all the men in the world won't matter if they can't get ammo, food, medicine, etc... Russia can't protect the kerch strait connection. If they lose the land bridge, Crimea loses logistical connection to the rest of Russia, doesn't it? They can re supply by sea. Remember the battle for the island of Malta in WWII? They won’t be able to if UA gets to anywhere on the Azov shore, such as Mariupol. Then they can use anti-ship missiles to prevent ship transit from and to Rostov. If they retake all of Kherson, then they can prevent shipping in/out of Sevastopol. |
|
|
|
|
Posted: 7/3/2023 2:28:46 PM EDT
[Last Edit: daemon734]
[#41]
Disengaging
|
|
|
|
|
Posted: 7/3/2023 2:29:08 PM EDT
[#42]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By RockNwood: The problem for Russia is Russia: started well equipped, ending barefoot Ukraine: Started barefoot, ending as best military in Europe and Russia. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By RockNwood: Originally Posted By thehun06: Man ... seeing how the Ukies are equipped vs the Russians ... Russia should be ASHAMED of sending their man ill-equipped as they are ... Having said that ... Ukies weren't equipped well either prior to 2022 ... The problem for Russia is Russia: started well equipped, ending barefoot Ukraine: Started barefoot, ending as best military in Europe and Russia. Ukraine is definitely getting better as it goes along. |
|
|
|
|
Posted: 7/3/2023 2:30:55 PM EDT
[#43]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By daemon734: We would just run out of those they sane way we have with every other PGM at this point. There's a reason we have been so hesitant, Patriot just proves that concern was valid. So we have idiots running the military who have goals other than our national security in mind? |
|
|
|
|
Posted: 7/3/2023 2:31:00 PM EDT
[#44]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By lorazepam: https://pbs.twimg.com/media/F0HuS6hWIAIyyC4?format=jpg&name=medium  these are great parodies!
|
|
|
|
|
Posted: 7/3/2023 2:31:06 PM EDT
[#45]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By daemon734: Emotion has very little value in strategic warfare. ADA missiles are depleting fast across the west and those low value targets will never stop. The 1000-1500lb missiles arent produced in batches of a thousand at a time and cause exponentially more damage than a 40-60lb OWA can. You seem to be of the mistaken understanding that the flow of PGMs like Patriot will not end. It absolutely will. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By daemon734: Originally Posted By lorazepam: How many have they used? What constitutes a low value target? If your family was the target of one of these "low value targets" would you let it pass and save the missile that could have shot it down? The russians are not firing at mil targets. Emotion has very little value in strategic warfare. ADA missiles are depleting fast across the west and those low value targets will never stop. The 1000-1500lb missiles arent produced in batches of a thousand at a time and cause exponentially more damage than a 40-60lb OWA can. You seem to be of the mistaken understanding that the flow of PGMs like Patriot will not end. It absolutely will. You didn't answer his question. How about you not be so condescending in your tone and answer his very valid question. Regardless of what you might think it's not beneath you. He's not asking Google he's asking YOU. |
|
|
|
|
Posted: 7/3/2023 2:32:24 PM EDT
[#46]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By daemon734: They would be. The question is whether they would make a difference at this point, and whether we can afford to burn through them. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By daemon734: Originally Posted By Logcutter: So, you don't think long range precision rockets would be helpful? They would be. The question is whether they would make a difference at this point, and whether we can afford to burn through them. I think it is fair to say that your long held assessment is we can’t really afford to give them anything. |
|
|
|
|
Posted: 7/3/2023 2:32:49 PM EDT
[#47]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By daemon734: They would be. The question is whether they would make a difference at this point, and whether we can afford to burn through them. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By daemon734: Originally Posted By Logcutter: So, you don't think long range precision rockets would be helpful? They would be. The question is whether they would make a difference at this point, and whether we can afford to burn through them. I know you're against Ukraine aid for the most part, but would you have issues with providing cluster munitions in serious quantities? We've been destroying our stockpiles, and we can't or won't use them under most circumstances due to political concerns. |
|
|
|
|
Posted: 7/3/2023 2:33:06 PM EDT
[Last Edit: daemon734]
[#48]
Disengaging
|
|
|
|
|
Posted: 7/3/2023 2:33:30 PM EDT
[#49]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By fike: I think it is fair to say that your long held assessment is we can’t really afford to give them anything. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By fike: Originally Posted By daemon734: Originally Posted By Logcutter: So, you don't think long range precision rockets would be helpful? They would be. The question is whether they would make a difference at this point, and whether we can afford to burn through them. I think it is fair to say that your long held assessment is we can’t really afford to give them anything.  Attached File |
|
|
|
|
Posted: 7/3/2023 2:33:31 PM EDT
[#50]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Capta: If they have to shoot Patriot to defend the Patriot battery itself obviously they will. Clearly you have an agenda to push. I suggest you consider possible explanations before jumping to conclusions that you personally want to see. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Capta: Originally Posted By daemon734: Originally Posted By AlmightyTallest: I never said they wouldn't unless they needed to, but the multiple aircraft helo and Iksander kills make up for the Shahed kills. There's 8 at least on this launcher alone, not mentioning how many are on the other dozen launchers. I've been flat out told multiple times by prolific posters in this thread that this absolutely does not occur. If you are counting ROI, Iskander is about a 3:1 ratio to a Patriot, a Shahed is a 50:1. That matters less than the fact that they have an extremely finite magazine, each Patriot used on a drone is one more Iskander that gets through once they run dry. If you want the ROI on that, the Shahed 136's warhead is about 60lbs, an Iskander's is around 1500lbs NEW. The real story to this just shows the overall target selection and attrition problem that got Ukraine in the mess they are in with air defense in the first place. Patriot is not something they can not afford to squander regardless of ROI. They WILL stop being resupplied, there is no question about that. If they have to shoot Patriot to defend the Patriot battery itself obviously they will. Clearly you have an agenda to push. I suggest you consider possible explanations before jumping to conclusions that you personally want to see. Exactly. There are detain high value targets (the Patriot battery itself) where trading a Patriot for a POS Shaheed is worth it. Not because of the value of the Shaheed itself but because of the value of the Shaheed’s target, So far in this conflict the Ukrainian military leadership has generally been pretty savvy with what they’re doing. I’m going to assume they understand the value of a Patriot missile, snd are weighing this in for target dejection decisions. |
|
|
|
Win a FREE Membership!
Sign up for the ARFCOM weekly newsletter and be entered to win a free ARFCOM membership. One new winner* is announced every week!
You will receive an email every Friday morning featuring the latest chatter from the hottest topics, breaking news surrounding legislation, as well as exclusive deals only available to ARFCOM email subscribers.
AR15.COM is the world's largest firearm community and is a gathering place for firearm enthusiasts of all types.
From hunters and military members, to competition shooters and general firearm enthusiasts, we welcome anyone who values and respects the way of the firearm.
Subscribe to our monthly Newsletter to receive firearm news, product discounts from your favorite Industry Partners, and more.
Copyright © 1996-2024 AR15.COM LLC. All Rights Reserved.
Any use of this content without express written consent is prohibited.
AR15.Com reserves the right to overwrite or replace any affiliate, commercial, or monetizable links, posted by users, with our own.
