Posted: 10/30/2002 6:15:25 AM EDT
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This thread: [url]http://www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=1&f=5&t=151849&page=1[/url] has brought up (mostly my fault) issues of worker safety, so I thought I'd start the discussion over here so as to not further cloud the waters of the smoking thread. What do you think of OSHA? Do you work in an industry that is actively affected (in other words, if you're an accountant, let us know that before you weigh in with you opinion)? Do you thin OSHA is still necessary today? |
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Well, to address a point you made... I don't see why we need a huge government agency to protect a bunch of workers that shouldn't be here anyway. Why do you think illegals come here? Most of them come for the jobs many natives won't do. If they want government protection, they should at least immigrate legally. If I were in charge, and as illegal got hurt on the jobsite, here's what I would do: Visit the hospital, give the illegal a "Get well soon" balloon, and give him "Get the hell out" INS papers, and have the man sent to their native country's hospital. Visit the worksite, demand that the company hire only naturalized or native citizens, and make sure the employees realize that they have the right to ensure their own safety. If the conditions are poor, they should quit. Visit the construction company, and do a presentation on how it will cost them if they don't ensure basic safety on the job. |
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Torf said: -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Quoted: Are you kidding? When was the last time you were on a construction site? -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Actually, Friday. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- I am in charge of safety (among other things) on a $35 million project, and I have to battle with the foreman and subcontractor owners daily to get them to provide the proper tools, materials, and equipment for their employees to be able to work safely. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Good for you, I am building a $10 million dollar building, and have been on the job site for at least 4 out of the last 6 months. Why do you have to deal with such crappy attitudes? I don't know. None of those problems exist on our site. As a business owner, I know that it costs as much as $10,000 to replace even a forklift driver! Why would anyone in my position risk a $10,000 investment on a few dollars worth of safety precautions. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Is the OSHA arm of the govt. run well? Hell no. Do we still need the regulations? Hell yes. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- OSHA sucks. Plain and simple. Why do you need some 4th branch of government agency to tell you to treat your people right? Most of us don't. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- I would actually like to see the smoking issue become a part of the OSHA standard, then there would be much less question, but most violators would get away with it more often. That way, if an employee didn't have a problem working around smoke, he could do so, but if he did have a problem, he could report it. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- This despite the fact that smoking is a non-workplace occurrence. Should farting be regulated under OSHA? That is offensive, smelly and toxic to people. Sure, make a bureaucracy so restrictive that even the complaint of smoke can trigger governmental action. Despite the fact that most businesses are "smoke-free", you want tougher regulations. Nice. Think about this the next time you want a smoker to respect your RKBA. It may be locational. I notice you're in IL, where things may be different. Around this area (South Florida) I see nothing but unsafe working conditions, both on my site, and around town. I see much worse violations on sites other than mine, and in plain view from the road, begging for an OSHA visit. Things like scaffolds erected 3 stories high with no guardrails and insufficient planking. Now tell me, is this the result of workers who don't care if they fall, or of a corporate attitude of "get the job done yesterday"? It sounds like you are the exception, at least you would be around here. I had a visit by OSHA already once on this job and probably will again. He was a moron, quoted the standard improperly, issued citations for things that are not actually prohibited in the standard, and overlooked much worse violations than the ones he wrote up. He also didn't follow proper procedure while he was here, inspecting the site before doing the opening interview. With all of that said, at least one of the things he cited is an ongoing problem with one of my subs, and I hope they get fined a tremendous amount of money. For me, as a GC, if I didn't have OSHA to chase people around with, I'd likely have already had at least one death on my jobsite, and some immigrant family suing my company and getting me fired in the process. |
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Quoted: It may be locational. I notice you're in IL, where things may be different. Around this area (South Florida) I see nothing but unsafe working conditions, both on my site, and around town. I see much worse violations on sites other than mine, and in plain view from the road, begging for an OSHA visit. Things like scaffolds erected 3 stories high with no guardrails and insufficient planking. Now tell me, is this the result of workers who don't care if they fall, or of a corporate attitude of "get the job done yesterday"? It sounds like you are the exception, at least you would be around here. I had a visit by OSHA already once on this job and probably will again. He was a moron, quoted the standard improperly, issued citations for things that are not actually prohibited in the standard, and overlooked much worse violations than the ones he wrote up. He also didn't follow proper procedure while he was here, inspecting the site before doing the opening interview. With all of that said, at least one of the things he cited is an ongoing problem with one of my subs, and I hope they get fined a tremendous amount of money. For me, as a GC, if I didn't have OSHA to chase people around with, I'd likely have already had at least one death on my jobsite, and some immigrant family suing my company and getting me fired in the process. It very well might be locational. I just don't think that illegal immigrants deserve to be on the job anyway, but perhaps that is beside the point. I'm not a smoker by the way, I just don't like seeing major restrictions placed on the activity. I do a lot of work for our company, and yes, most of the work "Has to be done yesterday", so I understand the pressure that subs and gens are under. Corporate America has been coming to realize over the last few years that safety is cheap, but injuries are very expensive. We have a guy on staff who refused to pick up cases of product correctly, and injured his back. We as a company offer: Belts to those who desire them, education about safe procedures, incentives to workers who achieve safety goals, corrective action to employees who are unsafe, and a program for employees to identify safety hazards. This guy refused to change his lifting technique, and now he has costed us over $350,000 dollars, and that figure will rise to close to $500,000 before our obligation to him ends. It was his own damn fault notwithstanding. As I look across the nation, I see insurance costs rising. Our company used to pay all of our health insurance premium until a year ago. The costs have risen about 100 percent in the last 3 years. Now I have to contribute a small premium for health insurance. Pressure is being brought to bear on companies to reduce these costs. Safety is cheap, Injuries are expensive. I see more and more companies realizing this, and likewise increasing their own safety awareness above that which the standard employee would ever regard as prudent. Many of our employees resent having to wear safety glasses, they hate the orange vests, and they dislike the Forklift certification procedures that OSHA forces every year. I am not a regular employee, so I tend to do the things that would be a "no no" for other employees. All of this stuff is perfectly safe (to someone who has any balance whatsoever and a good head for heights), but OSHA would destroy us if they were to find standard employees doing this kind of work. I stand by my "smoking should not be regulated under OSHA" statements. OSHA already regulates it in the workplace to some extent, and most workplaces are going "smoke-free" anyhow. Indoor smoking bans are like gun storage laws in my book. |
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I completely agree that illegals shouldn't be working, shouldn't be protected by ANY of our laws (if we could legally kill them, would they still show up as often?). The problem is that they are a fact of life in Florida, and many other states as well. They are also a financial necessity. Does anyone really want to pay the price for grapes that they would cost if picked by regular Americans? The problem down here is that, illegal or not, the immigrants have influenced the job market. Even legal immigrants work for less than your average American high school dropout, so they are on the jobsite in droves. Their attitudes,and the easily replaceable nature of construction workers in this are have influenced the job market. If you're an American, and don't like the working conditions, then I'll just fire you, and hire an immigrant. Also, you're living in the land of Lincoln (where I come from considered a derogatory statement, lol) which I'm betting is largely union. Down here there is virtually no union activity, and as such the requirements to call someone an "electrician" or "fork lift operator" is basically you give them the tools of the trade (dikes, screwdrivers, forklift, whatever) and call them what you want. Guys that are drywallers today may be electricians tomorrow. There really is very little money invested in a worker, since there is no real training. Therefore, it is perceived as being more expensive to provide a safe environment than it is to have someone get hurt. When I was in college (master's in constuction management, bachelors in architecture) I did alot of research on jobsite safety, including alot of phone interviews with large companies. Time and time again, it took a major accident, most often a fatality, to get a company to change their corporate culture. Unfortunately (or fortunately, depending on your point of view) in my company this hasn't happened yet, and as such our corporate safety culture is horrible. The ONLY reason we strive to operate safely is to appease the safety inspectors and the OSHA inspectors. The only reason we have the safety inspectors is to appease owners, get a break on insurance, have someone to tell us how to not have to pay the OSHA fines, and to generally put on a facade for the public. |
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Seems to me that the answer would be to increase the number of legal immigrants that are coming into this country, and to crack down on companies that employ illegals. There have been times recently where companies couldn't find a qualified legal worker anywhere. It happened to me. I was hiring in the Chicago area, (lots of Hispanics, both legal and not) and couldn't find a good legal employee. Our company is very strict about hiring legal workers. The very best we could find were basically crap. It was frustrating. Now it seems that we are becoming able to replace bad workers. Here is the big picture: Whitey** won't do hard physical work. Whitey just wants to have a cushy job and dream about being a Marine Biologist. Unfortunately for Whitey there is a lot of work out there that needs to be done, and with an absence of immigrant workers, companies are willing to pay a little more Whitey to stay on the job. This obviously raises prices, thus causing people to try to consume less which may put Whitey back on his couch watching "The Price is Right". In general, Companies today must either lower their costs or else become more efficient. The easiest way to control costs is to hire inexpensive labor. If there were an adequate supply of legal immigrants, the market wage would not support the risks of hiring illegals. Companies would also be motivated to get a good return for their investment in their employee. This means; Less Absenteeism Safer working conditions Motivational goals Just rewards. If the area you are in is truely saturated with illegals, then you of course are right. Workers are a dime a dozen. It still behooves the company to make sure they don't get fines and punitive damages. One of our operations got fined by OSHA $10,000 for finding a worker who was not wearing safety glasses. OSHA in this case is beyond reasonable in enforcing their "made up" rules. That is a lot of money for any small business to be fined based on some knuckleheaded worker who refused to follow directions. Most of our operations, including the ones in Chicago aren't union. We have done our best to keep our employees happy with us as a company. They don't feel like they need a Union to watch their backs. What we realize is that even for a non-Union forklift driver, it takes 6 months worth of training before they can become a productive member of the workforce. You can't slap someone in the seat and expect the company to make money. We have to move XX number of units in an hour. A newbie might move 2 units an hour his first day, and gain a little more productivity over the next week or two. I am not exaggerating when I say '6 months', that is actually the amount of time it takes for a worker to become flexible, efficient, and valuable. I suspect that many building contractors are the same way. How much experience does a guy need before he is contributing enough work during the hour to pay for his own costs? Unskilled labor can cost $25 per hour (total cost, not wage). This is the inescapable fact that companies are just beginning to realize. This is why I feel OSHA is ceasing to be relevant in the safety process, and becoming a revenue agency much like the local, small-town, billboard cop. We DO need to get rid of illegal labor. We DO need to make sure the job market is not squeezed. We must cut costs in order to stay competitive. Anyhow, I feel like this has been a productive discussion. **My use of the word Whitey is not intended in a racist way. I am White, and am often embarrassed that some White people think that a lot of work is 'beneath' them. |
| As a former safety director for two separate companies in two very hazardous industries, (coal mining and meat packing), I can say unequivacably that yes, OSHA and its brother, MSHA are still very necessary. While following the letter of the law can sometimes be very time and money consuming, I've seen too many contractors practicing unsafe work practices and had too many managers want to cut corners with safety being the first cut, to believe otherwise. |
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OSHA may be goofy sometimes but I sure wouldn't trust employers to take appropriate precautions without government intervention, here are a couple of disasters (or ones waiting to happen) that I've seen. Work Place Horror Stories #1 I hope I can describe this clearly-it was an plastic injection die mold machine. Basically hot plastic is squirted into a mold which then seperates into two parts. Half the mold has the plastic mold still attached-four outer teeth hold the plastic part and pull it toward the mold while a steel tube was supposed to push out through the mold towards the plastic part. The part would then be pulled along the outer edges by the gripping teeth while the steel tube pushed in the opposite direction in the center of the plastic piece. This would cause the part to pop free of the plastic gripping teeth and fall onto a plastic slide and slide out into a basket. At that point the worker was to trim the plastic flash off the piece w/ a knife. Unfortunately the steel tube was not working so someone disabled the safety switch that would shut down the machine if you opened the access door to the machine. The worker would then have to reach in behind the plastic piece and pull if free with his hands. The problem was that if you got your finger caught between the plastic piece and the mold your fingers would be squished between the plastic and the mold until the plastic popped free-ow. Horror Story # 2 A plant had a machine-probably about 10 yards or longer from end to end. The needed to add another roller to the machine. The original three rollers were powerd by sprockets and chains, similar to a motorcycle, which were inside a steel case, the rollers then extended out through the wall of the case. The plant needed another roller added to use the machine in a different way. Instead of putting another chain and sprocket inside the steel case they added a sprocket to one of the original shafts but on the OUTSIDE of the case and put another sprocket with a chain on the new shaft. Of course a worker eventually got his hand caught in the chain and sprocket system and lost four of his five fingers and lot of the muscle on his hand. There was no reason the new sprocket and chain system could not have fit in the original case, it was just easier to build the chain and sprocket system exposed. |
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While there are some stinkers out there, the vast majority of environmental health and safety laws have been enacted after workplace disasters have occurred. Or would you call the approximately 150 workers who died in the Triangle Shirt Waist Factory Fire (March 25, 1911) or the 25 workers burned to death in the 1992 chicken-processing factory fire in Hamlet, North Carolina merely "stupid"? |
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OSHA is not only an unconstitutional agency, it does nothing to improve health and safety of workers. The free market, along with the courts, will take care of problems. For example, one could NOT work at a job that is unsafe. Or one could sue for negligence or endangerment. OSHA, like almost every federal agency, does more harm than good(like for example, raise prices because companies are trying to comply with inane regulations), and is not needed. See this excellent article: [url=http://www.cato.org/pubs/regulation/reg18v4e.html]Abolishing OSHA[/url] |
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Quoted: OSHA is not only an unconstitutional agency, it does nothing to improve health and safety of workers. The free market, along with the courts, will take care of problems. For example, one could NOT work at a job that is unsafe. Or one could sue for negligence or endangerment. OSHA, like almost every federal agency, does more harm than good(like for example, raise prices because companies are trying to comply with inane regulations), and is not needed. See this excellent article: [url=http://www.cato.org/pubs/regulation/reg18v4e.html]Abolishing OSHA[/url] I'm sorry Liberty, but this is just plain ignorant. First, it is well within the constitution, as OSHA was created by federal law passed by congress (the Occupational Safety and Health Act of 1971). Secondly, for the few stinkers OSHA has put out there, there are many more regulations that protect workers everyday without them even thinking about it. A few of these include: - Emergency Lighting - Fire protection - Powered industrial trucks - Personal Protective Equipment - Confined Spaces - Hazard Communication The arguement that the market will control workplace safety is old and has been disproven many times. While a "pure" market where the worker sells his "product" (labor) to the employer may make this true, there are several factors, including mobility, captive markets, and competition pressures that make this untrue. Adam Smith's invisible hand is dead or never existed and worker safety is best left to federal regulation. |
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Quoted: I'm sorry Liberty, but this is just plain ignorant. Sorry, but its you who is ignorant. First, it is well within the constitution, as OSHA was created by federal law passed by congress (the Occupational Safety and Health Act of 1971). Under this logic, a federal law passed by congress banning guns would not be unconstitutional. In fact it would, not only because it violates the 2nd, but because Congress was delegate no power to ban them. The same goes with OSHA. Congress was not delegate the power to regulate safety and health. Secondly, for the few stinkers OSHA has put out there, there are many more regulations that protect workers everyday without them even thinking about it. A few of these include: - Emergency Lighting - Fire protection - Powered industrial trucks - Personal Protective Equipment - Confined Spaces - Hazard Communication All of these could and would have been implemented by businesses voluntarily. The arguement that the market will control workplace safety is old and has been disproven many times. By people like Mark and Lenin, and those who follow them. And we all know how those ideas worked out.(Hint: They failed miserably) While a "pure" market where the worker sells his "product" (labor) to the employer may make this true, there are several factors, including mobility, captive markets, and competition pressures that make this untrue. Those factors you list are part OF the market, and they don't stop it from functioning, by actually are part and parcel of it. And even with those factors, they still would protect workers from dangers in the work place. Any company that would needlessly endanger would be out of business, not only from the loss of workers, through quitting, but through lawsuits by such workers. Adam Smith's invisible hand is dead or never existed and worker safety is best left to federal regulation. The invisible hand is still hard at work, despite numerous attempts to chop it off. The last place I would trust worker safety is federal regulation, mostly because it fails miserably. I'd be more(though not very much more) comfortable with state and local regulation. |
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libertyof76, [rolleyes]. Hey, tell that to all the miners who have died in mining disasters for the past 200 years. Sometimes you have to take what's available. When you have hungry mouths to feed you sure as hell can't afford to say no. Damn man, you just don't get it. |
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Quoted: Sorry, but its you who is ignorant. Oh goodie, an "I'm not ignorant, you are" poster. I have 13 years experience in the field. I've seen first hand contractors who hire illegals and don't bother to provide them with safety equipment or training. I've staunched the blood from a wound sustained by faulty equipment that was not inspected. I've had to personally fight fires using fire extinguishers and evacuate buildings. Your qualifications are...? Under this logic, a federal law passed by congress banning guns would not be unconstitutional. In fact it would, not only because it violates the 2nd, but because Congress was delegate no power to ban them. The same goes with OSHA. Congress was not delegate the power to regulate safety and health. How in the hell does the second follow from the first? Unlike the UN Human Rights Declaration, the Bill of Rights is an example of a negative declaration of rights. In other words, it declares what the State may NOT do, including denying the right of the people to keep and bear arms. Nothing is said about not promulgating worker safety regulations. By YOUR logic there should also be no EPA, no NSF, and no FAA because they are not specified by the founders. All of these could and would have been implemented by businesses voluntarily. Business itself has proven that it will NOT implement safety regulations without government oversite. As proof I cite the Railway Safety Appliance Act of 1893,the Pure Food and Drug Act of 1906, the Walsh-Healy Act of 1936, the Federal Coal Mine Safety Act of 1952, the Federal Metal and Nonmetallic Mine Safety Act of 1966. Industry wanted NONE of these laws, yet would you argue that railroad car couplers shouldn't meet certain standards (RSSA, 1893), that slaughter houses and drug manufacturers not have quality control measures to insure the purity of their products (PFDA 1906), that child labor should not be used (WHA, 1936), that coal mines should not be periodically inspected for safety (FCMSA, 1952) and that this inspection should not also be performed in rock quarries (FMNMSA 1966)? By people like Mark and Lenin, and those who follow them. And we all know how those ideas worked out.(Hint: They failed miserably) I assume you meant Marx. I don't see how communist theory has any bearing on this discussion, but as you will. The actions of the rail barons (Vanderbuilt, Gould) as well as mine owners (the Ludlow Massacre, Herrin Massacre) would seem to bolster my position however. If you need a more recent episode, I could cite the Imperial Food Products chicken processing plant fire in September 3, 1991 where the plant owners had chained the exit doors shut to keep the minimum wage workers from stealing chicken parts. Twenty five workers, mostly women, died. Those factors you list are part OF the market, and they don't stop it from functioning, by actually are part and parcel of it. And even with those factors, they still would protect workers from dangers in the work place. Any company that would needlessly endanger would be out of business, not only from the loss of workers, through quitting, but through lawsuits by such workers. Again, the facts of recent history do not support your hypothesis. Most workers, especially the poorer and undereducated ones will put up with unsafe working conditions, especially when the alternative is no work at all in one or two industry towns. And your arguements do not address whatsoever the issue of health issues connected with work place chemicals. This is amply proven by the dry cleaning industry's fight to continue to use perchlorethylene inspite of overwhelming evidence that it is a cancer causing agent. The use of asbestos is another example. The invisible hand is still hard at work, despite numerous attempts to chop it off. The last place I would trust worker safety is federal regulation, mostly because it fails miserably. I'd be more(though not very much more) comfortable with state and local regulation. Admit it, you haven't a clue what Adam Smith's invisible hand is. But let's assume for arguement that you do. If it did work as proposed then we would need NO regulation in interstate commerce, stocks, banking, or indeed, any industy as each would work for the greater good of society "as if led by an invisible hand". I suppose then you would feel comfortable putting you money in a bank that followed no rules and investing in companies that had no oversite. (Welcome to the savings and loan failures of the 80's and Enron). As to local regulation, there is nothing prohibiting localities from enacting their own safety regulations. CALOSHA is one of the most draconian out there. So in closing Liberty, unless you can present a more persuasive arguement, play with the kiddies and stay out of the deep end of the pool. ---------- Matt, In the first decade of the 20th century, the fatality rate for coal miners hit 2000 per year, or in other words, in from 1900 to 1910, 20,000 coal miners lost their lives. |
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I don't have a horse in the race, but Hoover dam had hard hats in the 30s. The Golden Gate Bridge was the first project ot mandate hard hats. OSHA is just another bureuacracy that may have served a purpose but will never die. Passing a law makes something constitutional bwahahaahahaha |
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Quoted: I don't have a horse in the race, but Hoover dam had hard hats in the 30s. The Golden Gate Bridge was the first project ot mandate hard hats. OSHA is just another bureuacracy that may have served a purpose but will never die. Passing a law makes something constitutional bwahahaahahaha Just to add to the information pool, the Golden Gate Bridge project was also the first construction project to just safety netting, which saved several lives (I forget exactly how many). I note this because it was VOLUNTARY, not MANDATORY. Most construction projects did not have such requirements, and as a result, many men died. On average, one man died per floor completed for each sky scraper built. OH, and several people told the Golden Gate Project manager is was nuts for spending the extra money on netting. |
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I am a Machinist here in Texas. We make industrial gas meters (The kind you see out in the field, not behind your house.) I work with a bunch of mexicans, some have green cards, one or two are either born or naturalized citizens. Obviously, in Texasthere is a rather large immigrant work force, especially West Texas where most of the real Drilling, pipelining... etc. gets done. Like it or not these immigrants have become a necessary part of the working community. They take the jobs that most people of my race (white) don't want. However, who supervises them? You guessed it whites... Basically, white people go to College, and others start working. If everyone went to college who would do the low paying, crappy, 80 hr a week jobs? And OSHA payed a visit today, My company has been recently classified as a "Hazardous" place to work. So, we are now subject to inspections and such. While i do find their requirments annoying sometimes, i have to admit that they are basically common sense If everyone ALWAYS paid attention to what they were doing where they were doing it, most of their requirements wouldn't be necess ary. But no one can ALWAYS be on their guard, attention wanders and people get hurt. Thus, we have OSHA. |
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25 years in various manufacturing operations, from electronics assembly to welding, machining and molding. Currently Senior Operation Manager at a small electronics manufacturing facility. I am not a big fan of federal regulation, especially when it seems to encroach upon what should be a state issue. That being said, some kind of minimal regulation and enforcement of STANDARDS is necessary because too many scumbag owners would not give a damn otherwise if they could make an extra dime. However, it should be up to the people of each state to decide how much govt. oversight is needed, if any. Here in the PRK, we have our own OSHA and our own laws about safety. We abolished it some years ago through a ballot initiative, but the legislators brought it back not long later. The bottom line is that the people of a given state should decide how much regulation they want, and vote for the representatives that will support that position. Imagine if we had no electrical standards or hundreds of other standards I could think of. What a mess we would be in. Unfortunately, to have an orderly society, some level of agreement and standardization is needed. We could talk for hours about the level, however! Ray |
| I have been an Ironworker since 1969. I worked as a connector until the years began to catch me. OSHA and MSHA are both staffed with people who have never worked, will never work and wouldn't know how to if they had to. It is most unfortunate they have strangled many of our industries, and it would tickle me pink to see these agencys GUTTED. |
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Quoted: I have been an Ironworker since 1969. I worked as a connector until the years began to catch me. OSHA and MSHA are both staffed with people who have never worked, will never work and wouldn't know how to if they had to. It is most unfortunate they have strangled many of our industries, and it would tickle me pink to see these agencys GUTTED. I agree that many of the OSHA employees are nimrods, but just because they are doesn't mean that the idea isn't a good one. Virtually everyone who works for the Broward County School Board is completely inept, does that mean we shouldn't have public schools? Legrue makes a good point about standards. There are several things in OSHA that I guarantee you no employer would do if it weren't for the standard. Things like accident reporting, MSDS, standardized certification of employees in hazardous trades, etc. OSHA also gives you standards for things like scaffold railings, ladder use, crane operation, etc. If I were a stucco-man I'd certainly rather not have my employer deciding how the railings on my scaffold should be errected. Rabon; No offense, but I think you've been brainwashed by your trade's culture. Many workers have been told for so long that OSHA is bad that they start to believe it. If you've been told that since 1969, then I'm betting its pretty well stuck in your brain. And that's your right, you don't have to like it, you just have to comply. The problem arrises that you are not working in a vaccuum, and if you fall because you refuse to wear a harness, then what happens to that poor schmuck below you when you land on him (incidentally, you should have had that area roped off too, but since there's no OSHA, you probably wouldn't have done that either). |
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Quoted: libertyof76, [rolleyes]. Hey, tell that to all the miners who have died in mining disasters for the past 200 years. Sometimes you have to take what's available. When you have hungry mouths to feed you sure as hell can't afford to say no. Damn man, you just don't get it. Damn this is a liberal statement. Mouths to feed so every one else has to babysit you, just because you have children to feed. For fuck's sake who doesn't. |
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LE is mostly OSHA-exempt, but OSHA is starting to creep into some aspects, and what I have seen so far is a good thing. OSHA does mandate proper equipment and training for bloodborne pathogens for LE, for example, and in my experience, many agencies would (or still do) blow off these requirements becuase of cost. I think there are alot of things someone needs to mandate for public sfaety, like requiring agencies to issue body armor and replace it on a regular basis (I still can't believe that there are LE agencies that don't issue armor). I think many employers would not take necessary safety steps without something to keep them honest. |