Posted: 4/22/2025 9:10:38 PM EDT
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Who still uses them? I’m looking for training, lesson plans, ppt etc. It’s still authorized for use but we just don’t train new officers on it so it’s almost extinct. I want to prevent that. |
| None of the agencies around here use them. When I got my instructor license (2 decades ago) it was direct from Monadnock. Best of luck. |
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I'm not fan of them. I'm not a fan of batons at all. They only work on passively resisting subjects or you have to violate policy with target areas. If you are fighting someone that's drunk, drugged or really angry. You can strike them in 'green' zones until you are literally too tired to swing the baton and you can't get them under control. We have countless vids on the internet of officers looking like clowns hitting guys with a baton and it doesn't do anything. Batons should have been phased out when saps/blackjacks, leather gloves with lead lined knuckles and brass knuckles were phased out. They didn't have decent non-lethal options so they evolved a baton curriculum into something that was legal and socially acceptable, but it doesn't work. The baton curriculum and all of the different 'defensive tactics' in law enforcement is worthless. Literally everything taught to police officers in defensive tactics is only for a false sense of confidence/security. Which is why we have so many clown show videos on the internet with LEO's who can't deal with someone that's resisting. I know some people think they are worth using for prying/poking techniques. But sometimes pain compliance doesn't work. Sometimes the leverage of a prying technique works. But unless you have like 2-3 officers on someone so you can start effectively prying while they are immobilized... Not so great. IMO the time spent training with them and the bulk/weight to carry them isn't worth the benefits they might provide. I have seen them used VERY effectively with strikes to the face/side of the head. Or 'hammer fist' blows into the mouth/nose area... (Typically non LEO involved drunken brawls). But we can't strike people in the face/head with them as a common technique. So they lose their effectiveness. Any time you see an officer effectively handling someone with their hands that's resisting... They typically train from one of four martial arts. Officers should primarily be training in Boxing and Brazilian Jui Jitsu. They can also learn a few techniques from Muay Thai and Judo. But as a base, Boxing and BJJ. They also need to actively be sparring and mixing it up with people. The rest of whats taught as far as DT/Batons should be phased out IMO. |
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Originally Posted By ICEAGE: I'm not fan of them. I'm not a fan of batons at all. They only work on passively resisting subjects or you have to violate policy with target areas. If you are fighting someone that's drunk, drugged or really angry. You can strike them in 'green' zones until you are literally too tired to swing the baton and you can't get them under control. We have countless vids on the internet of officers looking like clowns hitting guys with a baton and it doesn't do anything. Batons should have been phased out when saps/blackjacks, leather gloves with lead lined knuckles and brass knuckles were phased out. They didn't have decent non-lethal options so they evolved a baton curriculum into something that was legal and socially acceptable, but it doesn't work. The baton curriculum and all of the different 'defensive tactics' in law enforcement is worthless. Literally everything taught to police officers in defensive tactics is only for a false sense of confidence/security. Which is why we have so many clown show videos on the internet with LEO's who can't deal with someone that's resisting. I know some people think they are worth using for prying/poking techniques. But sometimes pain compliance doesn't work. Sometimes the leverage of a prying technique works. But unless you have like 2-3 officers on someone so you can start effectively prying while they are immobilized... Not so great. IMO the time spent training with them and the bulk/weight to carry them isn't worth the benefits they might provide. I have seen them used VERY effectively with strikes to the face/side of the head. Or 'hammer fist' blows into the mouth/nose area... (Typically non LEO involved drunken brawls). But we can't strike people in the face/head with them as a common technique. So they lose their effectiveness. Any time you see an officer effectively handling someone with their hands that's resisting... They typically train from one of four martial arts. Officers should primarily be training in Boxing and Brazilian Jui Jitsu. They can also learn a few techniques from Muay Thai and Judo. But as a base, Boxing and BJJ. They also need to actively be sparring and mixing it up with people. The rest of whats taught as far as DT/Batons should be phased out IMO. I agree... why have a tool that you can't use to it's max capability? However, should a violent person take it from you they can... I remember my first class in the early 90's for the ASP... target area was an X pattern strike across the collar bone areas. |
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They were the thing when I started in the early 90s. I remember a sadistic instructor at the academy that took pleasure in hurting his trainees. Anyone remember the Georgia State Takedown? They faded away over the years. We started doing annual training with the PR24 and straight stick. The officer could choose to carry either. When I retired I still had a PR24 but never carried it. Most of the guys I worked with, and I, had an expandable baton on us. ETA: Somewhere around here I still have a 24" Hickory Stick that I carried as a Reserve back in the late 70s. Still have my SAP too. It's sitting in my desk drawer. |
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Originally Posted By ICEAGE: I'm not fan of them. I'm not a fan of batons at all. They only work on passively resisting subjects or you have to violate policy with target areas. If you are fighting someone that's drunk, drugged or really angry. You can strike them in 'green' zones until you are literally too tired to swing the baton and you can't get them under control. We have countless vids on the internet of officers looking like clowns hitting guys with a baton and it doesn't do anything. The most effective way to use the PR24, while sticking to green zones, is to hold it in the standard guard position (holding the handle with the long part laying against your forearm, and the short length sticking out), and punch the green zones with that tip sticking out. Doesn’t matter if they’re angry, drunk, or drugged up. A punch to any large muscle groups like the quad/thigh will immediately cause a contusion/localized crush injury, and the muscle will stop working.  Swinging it like an ASP, is what’s ineffective. It’s also why ASP batons aren’t particularly effective on those same types of individuals. They don’t have much mass behind them, so the impact doesn’t have much effect on the muscle. An RCB Peacekeeper OTOH, has the mass (with the downside that it’s noticeably heavier on the belt). |
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My PR-24 has been hiding in my closet at home for many years now. A couple of old timers still had SAP's when I started, everybody had straight sticks. I feel like pepper spray and Taser's have phased contact weapons out. |
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Originally Posted By mardoc: I had an aluminum one in the early 1980s - made PING if you hit someone with it. Like a baseball bat. Ahhh..the Magic Wand, the sound it made coming out of a metal baton ring stopped many offender's bad behavior. |
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"The laws that forbid the carrying of arms, disarm only those who are neither inclined nor determined to commit crimes." - Thom
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The way I see it, batons have two issues: 1. Weight. Lightweight batons are easy to carry, but make poor striking impliments due to their weight and the fact that they're weight is primarily in their handle. Peacekeeper batons are exponentially better batons, but weigh much more than ASP. Force = Mass x Acceleration. An Asp baton weighs 13-20 ozs (for the run of the mill steel ones) A Peacekeeper weighs approximately 1oz per inch so 21-29oz If an average human can swing a 13oz baton at roughly 65 miles per hour, that results in 155.6j of energy. If an average human can swing a 21oz baton at rougly 65 miles per hour, that results in 251j of energy. the other major problem with batons as I see it: 2. They never, ever look good on film, and everyone has a camera these days. The Peacekeeper is a better baton, but it's also significantly meatier, which looks even WORSE on film. It wasn't too long ago that the LAPD stopped using Maglites and went to plastic pelican lights because of how their flashlights were being used as impact weapons, and how that looked. I have a 26" Peacekeeper but I don't carry it anymore. Also, oddly the department I work for doesn't issue spray. The only less lethal option are Taser X26ps or Batons. |
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Never had a PR24 but was issued an ASP when I went through the academy in 1997 Took it off my belt immediately following FTO Trained, Judo, Japanese Juijitsu, BJJ, American Boxing, Wrestling and MMA most of my adult like. In my opinion all officers should train a real martial art and be required to spar regularly. I’ve yet to see a resistor that couldn’t be quickly handled by a moderately trained grappler |
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Originally Posted By ICEAGE: I'm not fan of them. I'm not a fan of batons at all. They only work on passively resisting subjects or you have to violate policy with target areas. If you are fighting someone that's drunk, drugged or really angry. You can strike them in 'green' zones until you are literally too tired to swing the baton and you can't get them under control. We have countless vids on the internet of officers looking like clowns hitting guys with a baton and it doesn't do anything. Batons should have been phased out when saps/blackjacks, leather gloves with lead lined knuckles and brass knuckles were phased out. They didn't have decent non-lethal options so they evolved a baton curriculum into something that was legal and socially acceptable, but it doesn't work. The baton curriculum and all of the different 'defensive tactics' in law enforcement is worthless. Literally everything taught to police officers in defensive tactics is only for a false sense of confidence/security. Which is why we have so many clown show videos on the internet with LEO's who can't deal with someone that's resisting. I know some people think they are worth using for prying/poking techniques. But sometimes pain compliance doesn't work. Sometimes the leverage of a prying technique works. But unless you have like 2-3 officers on someone so you can start effectively prying while they are immobilized... Not so great. IMO the time spent training with them and the bulk/weight to carry them isn't worth the benefits they might provide. I have seen them used VERY effectively with strikes to the face/side of the head. Or 'hammer fist' blows into the mouth/nose area... (Typically non LEO involved drunken brawls). But we can't strike people in the face/head with them as a common technique. So they lose their effectiveness. Any time you see an officer effectively handling someone with their hands that's resisting... They typically train from one of four martial arts. Officers should primarily be training in Boxing and Brazilian Jui Jitsu. They can also learn a few techniques from Muay Thai and Judo. But as a base, Boxing and BJJ. They also need to actively be sparring and mixing it up with people. The rest of whats taught as far as DT/Batons should be phased out IMO. No need for batons at all for LE? Never worked a riot? Good luck getting everyone to learn martial arts. (Not happening). Some folks are just tools people, and actual fighting prowess takes actual experience. People stand around because they are afraid to engage and because they have not been in many actual fights. Anyhow- We allowed PR24’s, but we didn’t have actual training specific to them. I kept one in the car but carried an ASP. Used the long riot batons a lot more, the ASP got used a lot for breaking things. Large agency near me still hands out PR24’s to everyone, mostly for riot details, which is kind of a crummy deal because a 42” long baton is much better. Used to be the dedicated riot folks had 42” batons, and the regular folks pulled in to help had the PR24’s. Don’t have any training materials, because trying to do any sort of baton training was like pulling teeth. Was an area where I always failed to make any headway on the training realm. Too many decision makers with too little road experience…. I think the PR24 is pretty decent in the hands of someone who knows how to use it well and is willing to use it. I have seen it used to great effect. That is a small group of people though nowadays with those skills. |
a loaded gun won’t set you free, so you say…
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Thanks to camcorders and Rodney King, the acab crowd now see us beating people with a metal pipe. I carry a Monadnock for 20yrs and the only time I used it was during training and for knocking on doors. If it's times to go hands on with someone, we either use the taser or we just bum rush the person and take them to the ground. I agree with getting people to become mini Jackie Chens. Can't even get people to do basic cardo and weight training. Baton use during riots are mostly used to move people along and jab people. It's a little hard to strike someone when you're standing elbows to assholes with your people |
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WTF is this badness I read before my very eyes? Green zones? In combat? Illegal choke holds? Holy shit! The instant the first punch or whatever is thrown it's GAME ON. What bullshit! YOU didn't decide you wanted combat, some Darwin candidate did. Police officers have a 100% human right to protect themselves and get the job done. While I don't expect you to shoot someone for jaywalking, fair is fair. The minute someone wants to fight it's GAME ON. There is NO EXCUSE for a police officer to have to give a sucker an even break. The Marquis of Queensbury is just some fag that hangs out in front of the Target men's room. What they OUGHT to do is have a bunch of retired Gurkhas from the British Army train you with kukris. Someone takes a sock at you? Swish! "Hey Lefty! You got one shot left!" There are a BUNCH of Gurkhas working as cops in Singapore. They are without a doubt the kindest police officers on the planet. They spend their days helping little old ladies across the street and helping lost children find their mothers and giving directions to tourists which is what a street cop is SUPPOSED to do. He's not paid to get into combat. He's paid to PREVENT combat. If course if you decide to go looking for a fight then that's COMPLETELY on you. If Gurkha cheerfully and politely asks you to turn around and put your hands behind your back most health minded people people simply obey. This is no excuse to randomly thump people and throw your weight around and create trouble where there isn't any. It simply means cops have a right to defend themselves and other citizens by any means necessary. Common sense, compassion, and ability to read people and a sense of humor still are at the top of the list of prerequisites of a cop but NOBODY ever loses their right to self-defense. Ever. Green zones? What fucking bullshit! Green zones should be listed as X-rings. |
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Vote "YES" on 'NO'!
For Captain Erick Foster, Wexford, PA KIA 29 Aug, 07.
Rangers lead the way.
Inspected by #26
I was checking out this midget porn website....
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If I wanted to whop somebody with a grist-mill handle, I would use an authentic grist-mill handle. But anything involving a whoopin-stick still looks bad to the public eye. Whereas, spraying idiots and lighting them up with a TASER is largely expected these days when idiots act like idiots. Easy Peasy. The stendo-baton is pretty heavy if its a good one. More TASER accessories and larger spray can. |
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They who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety. - Benjamin Franklin, 1775
They who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety. - Benjamin Franklin, 1775
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Originally Posted By MONGO45: Never had a PR24 but was issued an ASP when I went through the academy in 1997 Took it off my belt immediately following FTO Trained, Judo, Japanese Juijitsu, BJJ, American Boxing, Wrestling and MMA most of my adult like. In my opinion all officers should train a real martial art and be required to spar regularly. I've yet to see a resistor that couldn't be quickly handled by a moderately trained grappler Getting officers to train a martial art? Haha. Not going to happen. You're lucky to get them to even apply for the job these days. Then they instantly want to get some specialized High Speed Low Drag assignment because their mommy and daddy always told them they're special. And their teachers always told them fighting was bad and to never do it. |