Posted: 6/19/2016 8:49:13 PM EDT
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What would you guys do in my situation? Long story short, when I was at the auto show earlier today (Thread here) the Marketing and Advertising managers for the fuel company hosting the show approached me. They would like copies of my photos. Naturally I don't want to do it for free, especially since I'm hard up for cash like crazy.
So how should I approach this? Given the photos do you think licensing them is even worth it? This is all kind of a first for me. A happy first, but I'm unsure none the less. |
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I have no idea what the going rates are, but here's a few links with some thoughts on the mechanics of licensing:
http://www.lynda.com/articles/how-to-license-photos-easy/ http://asmp.org/tutorials/licensing-guide.html http://photography.about.com/od/copyrightinformation/a/photorights.htm http://www.diyphotography.net/photo-licensing-look-basics/ The only licensing I've done is for photos of client projects, and that "license" (such as it was) gave them non-exclusive full rights to do whatever they wanted with them. Of course, the time it took to take those photos was billable time, and the photos were ancillary to the work I was doing (i.e. random photos taken as I was performing my regular work, no request was made for me to photo anything). |
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I have no idea what the going rates are, but here's a few links with some thoughts on the mechanics of licensing: http://www.lynda.com/articles/how-to-license-photos-easy/ http://asmp.org/tutorials/licensing-guide.html http://photography.about.com/od/copyrightinformation/a/photorights.htm http://www.diyphotography.net/photo-licensing-look-basics/ The only licensing I've done is for photos of client projects, and that "license" (such as it was) gave them non-exclusive full rights to do whatever they wanted with them. Of course, the time it took to take those photos was billable time, and the photos were ancillary to the work I was doing (i.e. random photos taken as I was performing my regular work, no request was made for me to photo anything). I'll give those a read. Considering it is one of the largest companies in AK asking for photos, I want to be very careful about this. If I screw myself, there isn't much I can do about it 
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Try and get Durka in here, or some of the other working pros.
You're getting into tricky territory. I can't even begin to wrap my head around all that stuff, but I can say that the fee should be based on what rights they want and what their intended use is. Pics they wanna post on facebook? ehh...not sure how much I'd charge but it wouldn't be nearly as much as if I was going to be the new source of their advertising campaign. If they intend to use the pictures to make money, YOU need to use the pictures to make money. 
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Try and get Durka in here, or some of the other working pros. You're getting into tricky territory. I can't even begin to wrap my head around all that stuff, but I can say that the fee should be based on what rights they want and what their intended use is. Pics they wanna post on facebook? ehh...not sure how much I'd charge but it wouldn't be nearly as much as if I was going to be the new source of their advertising campaign. If they intend to use the pictures to make money, YOU need to use the pictures to make money. That's kinda my thought. It'll probably just get used as facebook and newsletter fodder but I don't want to back myself into a corner either. |
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I've given up trying to charge the way some places online suggest you do. Never made a cent off of complicated contracts based on usage or views or charging $10k for an image. For general marketing purposes (social media, website, newsletters, brochures, newspaper/magazine articles) I typically charge $100 per image. If there's more than 10 that they want I will drop them down to $95 or $90 depending on the client and the quality of the work. The work I do though is time-consuming (I charge for my time on top of this btw), very detailed, set up shots. It's not journalism or street shooting.
Advertising work, covers for magazines, are a different thing and it gets complicated. I rarely ever do this though because 99% of my clients are businesses and I'd rather scoop shit than deal with those people every single day. What were the circumstances when they approached you? Did they do it via email, or in person? What did they say? Usually when people say "we would like copies of the photos" and nothing else, they are expecting you to give them the images for free and will typically balk at any reasonable price you quote them. If they asked you for copies and said they were willing to pay, they are saying they are uneducated with buying licensed photography, but are good-natured about it and will typically work with you. If they asked you if they could purchase some of your photos or license them for use, you're golden. Build an online gallery of say....30 images. Shoot them an email with the link to the gallery. Ask them to take a look and let you know if there were any they wanted. Ask them if they had a budget in mind. They'll either say "we don't have a budget in mind" to which you'll give them an estimate per image and a price for the entire set, or they'll say "we were looking for a budget in the range of "....." to which you'll tell them you can get them X number of images for that price range. Be realistic about your pricing. These were impromptu street photos and they'll be using them for mostly social media. I'll be pleasantly surprised if they offer you more than $200 for 30 photos. |
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Guy just walked up and gave me his card before saying he'd like copies of the photos emailed. That was pretty much the extent of the conversation. I'm not really worried about the pay, more losing any control over the images if I do send them.
To be honest, I might just scratch the idea as a whole. Seems like a lot of effort with minimal odds of reward. |
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Guy just walked up and gave me his card before saying he'd like copies of the photos emailed. That was pretty much the extent of the conversation. I'm not really worried about the pay, more losing any control over the images if I do send them. To be honest, I might just scratch the idea as a whole. Seems like a lot of effort with minimal odds of reward. That sounds like he's expecting freebies. |
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Guy just walked up and gave me his card before saying he'd like copies of the photos emailed. That was pretty much the extent of the conversation. I'm not really worried about the pay, more losing any control over the images if I do send them. To be honest, I might just scratch the idea as a whole. Seems like a lot of effort with minimal odds of reward. LoL "Just go ahead and email me copies of the photos once you've spent the necessary time working on them" 
Sorry, not laughing at you, just the situation that gets repeated over and over again from the people with the money. It's why I'm trying to get out of the business as a whole. If you feel like pursuing this, send me a PM and I can get you some documents you can use as a template. |
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LoL "Just go ahead and email me copies of the photos once you've spent the necessary time working on them"
Sorry, not laughing at you, just the situation that gets repeated over and over again from the people with the money. It's why I'm trying to get out of the business as a whole. If you feel like pursuing this, send me a PM and I can get you some documents you can use as a template. Quoted:
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Guy just walked up and gave me his card before saying he'd like copies of the photos emailed. That was pretty much the extent of the conversation. I'm not really worried about the pay, more losing any control over the images if I do send them. To be honest, I might just scratch the idea as a whole. Seems like a lot of effort with minimal odds of reward. LoL "Just go ahead and email me copies of the photos once you've spent the necessary time working on them"
Sorry, not laughing at you, just the situation that gets repeated over and over again from the people with the money. It's why I'm trying to get out of the business as a whole. If you feel like pursuing this, send me a PM and I can get you some documents you can use as a template. Yeah, I was so happy about that until I hopped in my truck and went...wait a second. Damnit! 
I'm just going to let this slide, I really doubt they plan on paying anything, let alone be worth my time. The best will go into my portfolio for now.I guess. Can't blame me for getting excited though. |
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I'm just going to let this slide, I really doubt they plan on paying anything, let alone be worth my time. The best will go into my portfolio for now.I guess. Can't blame me for getting excited though. Not at all. And my post was not meant to discourage. I just know that, in my experience, trying to deal with people companies that want your images and work for free is more discouraging simply by the insulting nature of it all. Have that happen enough times and one can get pretty jaded. |
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Not at all. And my post was not meant to discourage. I just know that, in my experience, trying to deal with people companies that want your images and work for free is more discouraging simply by the insulting nature of it all. Have that happen enough times and one can get pretty jaded. Quoted:
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I'm just going to let this slide, I really doubt they plan on paying anything, let alone be worth my time. The best will go into my portfolio for now.I guess. Can't blame me for getting excited though. Not at all. And my post was not meant to discourage. I just know that, in my experience, trying to deal with people companies that want your images and work for free is more discouraging simply by the insulting nature of it all. Have that happen enough times and one can get pretty jaded. Seems like it's a sad situation all around for professional photography. The local news channels around here, are always begging everyone to "send in your pictures, send in your pictures"........free, of course. And lots of people do. So now, crappy cell phone pictures (and videos) are a standard part of a "professional" news broadcast. I wish they would at least tell people to hold the cell phone in the landscape orientation, instead of the portrait orientation. 
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Not at all. And my post was not meant to discourage. I just know that, in my experience, trying to deal with people companies that want your images and work for free is more discouraging simply by the insulting nature of it all. Have that happen enough times and one can get pretty jaded. Quoted:
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I'm just going to let this slide, I really doubt they plan on paying anything, let alone be worth my time. The best will go into my portfolio for now.I guess. Can't blame me for getting excited though. Not at all. And my post was not meant to discourage. I just know that, in my experience, trying to deal with people companies that want your images and work for free is more discouraging simply by the insulting nature of it all. Have that happen enough times and one can get pretty jaded. Mostly it seems like cost and effort would outstrip pay if any. Especially since the company is known for being aggressive with people. I'd just rather not deal with it since I'm stuck in bed more often than not. I just hadn't put a lot of thought into the 'what ifs' when I made the post. |
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My suggestion considering all that has posted here, is to pretend you never heard that request.
I can just about promise you if you send in a licensing form that spells out rights and fee schedules you'll either 1. Never hear back 2. Get some passive-aggressive response about how dare you ask for money for your work. |
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My suggestion considering all that has posted here, is to pretend you never heard that request. I can just about promise you if you send in a licensing form that spells out rights and fee schedules you'll either 1. Never hear back 2. Get some passive-aggressive response about how dare you ask for money for your work. This, although number 1 is done 99.5% of the time. Which makes it a bit less stinging. I know it's just me, but I would be perfectly happy with photography as something that's done for my own enjoyment, with a little recognition on the side from forum posts. As it is now, it's easier for me to stay in a while than get out, since I've spent years building up the paperwork and network. That mini-shoot I did a few weeks ago of the milky way was just pure fun for me, and made me miss those outings. |
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This, although number 1 is done 99.5% of the time. Which makes it a bit less stinging. I know it's just me, but I would be perfectly happy with photography as something that's done for my own enjoyment, with a little recognition on the side from forum posts. As it is now, it's easier for me to stay in a while than get out, since I've spent years building up the paperwork and network. That mini-shoot I did a few weeks ago of the milky way was just pure fun for me, and made me miss those outings. Quoted:
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My suggestion considering all that has posted here, is to pretend you never heard that request. I can just about promise you if you send in a licensing form that spells out rights and fee schedules you'll either 1. Never hear back 2. Get some passive-aggressive response about how dare you ask for money for your work. This, although number 1 is done 99.5% of the time. Which makes it a bit less stinging. I know it's just me, but I would be perfectly happy with photography as something that's done for my own enjoyment, with a little recognition on the side from forum posts. As it is now, it's easier for me to stay in a while than get out, since I've spent years building up the paperwork and network. That mini-shoot I did a few weeks ago of the milky way was just pure fun for me, and made me miss those outings. This right here is the main reason I have zero interest in doing paid work. The one exception would be that grail traveling photographer job for NG or something along those lines. That, I'd do. Else, NO! |
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If you're really interested in selling them I'd opt for officially registering them with the US Copyright Office/Library of Congress. It's been a long time since I did it (probably 10 years) but I want to say it cost $30 for as many images as I could cram onto a CD. While you're protected the moment you hit the shutter to create the image, having them registered increases any monetary compensation you might be awarded if you find that your images have been used w/o proper licensing down the road. I've had mine purloined more than once and I think I referenced the USCO certificate number in the cease and desist orders.
I had someone from the local hockey team try to convince me to shoot all of their home games for free. The awesome deal was that they'd own the copyright to all of my images for use in marketing or whatever the hell they wanted. I'd get a parking pass and admission to the game. We didn't come to an agreement.
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Yeah, I was so happy about that until I hopped in my truck and went...wait a second. Damnit!
I'm just going to let this slide, I really doubt they plan on paying anything, let alone be worth my time. The best will go into my portfolio for now.I guess. Can't blame me for getting excited though. Quoted:
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Guy just walked up and gave me his card before saying he'd like copies of the photos emailed. That was pretty much the extent of the conversation. I'm not really worried about the pay, more losing any control over the images if I do send them. To be honest, I might just scratch the idea as a whole. Seems like a lot of effort with minimal odds of reward. LoL "Just go ahead and email me copies of the photos once you've spent the necessary time working on them"
Sorry, not laughing at you, just the situation that gets repeated over and over again from the people with the money. It's why I'm trying to get out of the business as a whole. If you feel like pursuing this, send me a PM and I can get you some documents you can use as a template. Yeah, I was so happy about that until I hopped in my truck and went...wait a second. Damnit!
I'm just going to let this slide, I really doubt they plan on paying anything, let alone be worth my time. The best will go into my portfolio for now.I guess. Can't blame me for getting excited though. Consider the likelihood of that guy probably gave his card out to multiple amateurs looking for freebies. The other problem you have is no way to enforce copyrights or license agreements. The big players like Getty Images has lawyers and are constantly scouring looking for violations that are followed up by demand letters or takedown notices. |
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Let's be a bit more honest. He can take action...it's just a lot harder for him as an individual.
I've found copies of my images hosted elsewhere a few times over the years, sent in a DMCA takedown notice, and the images were removed. Were they not, I'd sure have the option to press the issue in court. Unfortunately, I don't have pockets that deep. 
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Let's be a bit more honest. He can take action...it's just a lot harder for him as an individual. I've found copies of my images hosted elsewhere a few times over the years, sent in a DMCA takedown notice, and the images were removed. Were they not, I'd sure have the option to press the issue in court. Unfortunately, I don't have pockets that deep. They've made it easier for the little guy to get compensation over the past few years by opening things like this up to small claims. I don't know all the ins/outs of it, but I remember when it came about it was a positive step. |
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This right here is the main reason I have zero interest in doing paid work. The one exception would be that grail traveling photographer job for NG or something along those lines. That, I'd do. Else, NO! NG is as bad or worse. I Having talked with two or three National Geographic photographers, They always start out with "back in the day when NG would pay a photographer to go some where for months or a year" and how it was not like that anymore. NG has one of the biggest rights grabs going these days. The monthly photo contests gives someone a chance to win a subscription, and NG gets the rights to all the entered photos for all purposes for all time. Some Dr. with a good camera on Safari gets a good shot and he gets NG for a year. NG uses his photo for the mag, the kids mag, the advertising, and the fall outs in the magazine. Maybe a flash ad on the TV channel too. Saves NG a lot of money. |
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For good and valuable consideration, the receipt and legal sufficiency of which is hereby acknowledged, each entrant hereby irrevocably and unconditionally grants to Sponsor, its successors and assigns the right (but not the obligation) to use entrant’s Submission in whole or in part, to reproduce, distribute, display and create derivative works of the entrant’s Submission (along with a name credit) in connection with the Contest and the marketing, advertising and promotion of the Contest, in any media now or hereafter known, for no additional compensation, as well as in and in connection with a display at a potential exhibition of winners; publication of a book featuring select Submissions in the Contest; publication in National Geographic Traveler Magazine or online highlighting Contest Submissions or winners of the Contest; and offering as downloadable wallpaper to users of the Contest website in any and all languages, by any and all means, media, devices, processes and technology now known or hereafter devised, in perpetuity throughout the universe at no charge to Sponsor. From the rules, way at the bottom. That is not all of it. but you give NG the rights to your photo forever. |
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From the rules, way at the bottom. That is not all of it. but you give NG the rights to your photo forever. Quoted:
For good and valuable consideration, the receipt and legal sufficiency of which is hereby acknowledged, each entrant hereby irrevocably and unconditionally grants to Sponsor, its successors and assigns the right (but not the obligation) to use entrant’s Submission in whole or in part, to reproduce, distribute, display and create derivative works of the entrant’s Submission (along with a name credit) in connection with the Contest and the marketing, advertising and promotion of the Contest, in any media now or hereafter known, for no additional compensation, as well as in and in connection with a display at a potential exhibition of winners; publication of a book featuring select Submissions in the Contest; publication in National Geographic Traveler Magazine or online highlighting Contest Submissions or winners of the Contest; and offering as downloadable wallpaper to users of the Contest website in any and all languages, by any and all means, media, devices, processes and technology now known or hereafter devised, in perpetuity throughout the universe at no charge to Sponsor. From the rules, way at the bottom. That is not all of it. but you give NG the rights to your photo forever. Not a copyright grab, just a rights grab. The "in perpetuity throughout the universe" is a nice touch. The "right (but not the obligation)" is just adding insult where there shouldn't be one. Sounds like a very immature lawyer wrote that up. 
BTW, most online or print photo contests that aren't local are like this. |
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For those of you in the field I don't have to tell you, but this is the state of photography. The value assigned to professional photographer by, I was going to say by the publishing industry, but really by everyone, is almost nothing. Everyone is a photographer these days, just let them see you with a camera and they will tell you.
NG is still perceived as a Photographic Journal. It was for decades. But it realized that it could get "good enough" photos for free. NG was the Moneyball moment for photography publications. They were asking themselves" If NG can still put out a photography mag with mostly free photos why are we paying pros?" Sports Illustrated dropped all its staff photographers and now uses freelance or contributed photos. Newspapers use reporters with cell phones with straight to social media uplinks. No editing, no composition, no thought. Long way to say that the fees anyone can expect for photos are not what they were and in a lot of cases not enough for a photographer to live on as a single income. NorthPolar your work has value. Your time has value. All the years you spent learning to get that photo has value. your equipment was not free, your gas was not free. While you wont recoup that on a single photo, or shoot remember all those costs and don't give your work away. |
