[ARCHIVED THREAD] - Problem employee at work (Page 1 of 2)
Posted: 3/30/2010 8:43:44 PM EDT
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I run a team of 11 in an office environment for a small corporation of about 600 people. My employees are professionals, making between 40k and 51k per year, at least 5 years experience in the field, up to 40 years in some cases. I have this employee who has a ton of experience, has managed at all levels, and has fallen back into a line level position due to the economy and shrinking of our market. Our job is production based, and results driven. This guy gets caught up in strategy and big picture business that is none of his concern, and he ends up missing details of his own responsibility and position. He just cost the company 20k for f'ing up an insurance claim by losing some important original documents that couldn't be replaced. This incident caused my director to place him on final written warning, which is basically a lit fuse for termination. I have had talks with the guy about his performance, suggested ways he can handle situations better, and how he can contribute to the team. I told him during his warning discussion that he needs to focus on details, and leave the strategy to management. He was not expecting such a harsh punishment, he felt he should only receive a verbal warning.
So what he does he do? He goes to HR and files a complaint that management doesn't respond to his requests in a timely fashion. One example was him saying that I took too long to approve vacation time for him, and he had to cancel his flight with a penalty. This is after he has requested and canceled time on 3 different occasions because he couldn't book certain dates with frequent flier miles. He made his final request on Saturday, and I approved it on Monday, and he says that's too late. He is sending rude and disrespectful emails to me and copying our VP or HR. I've been told to ignore the emails and treat him like any other employee. Apparently his complaint has made it to our CEO and it's being reviewed by his office. The HR VP sent him an email today saying thanks for the input, but quit copying me and deal with your site HR director. He is trying to find holes in every little process we have going on. I can't tell if he wants to get fired, or is trying to get a rise out of me, or what?? His management experience has shown him what to do to push the right buttons of HR and our leadership, but he has no ground to stand on. It will all wash out to him being incompetent and not right for the job. The challenge lies in having to work with this prick for however long it takes for us to kick him to the curb. Putting up with his fake personality while he is sending these shitty emails and answering his stupid questions, all while trying not to pick on him and single him out for the sake of hot railing him out of there. He would love to make a complaint he's being treated unfairly. I feel that I am a good manger. I hate writing people up, or firing them. I work with them as much as I can and give many chances before they are in trouble. It is my goal that I treat everyone fairly and with respect, I was doing what they are doing not too long ago. I receive good feedback from my good employees, because they know how to do their jobs and they recognize I am there to support them. This guy is a total whack job and I'm stuck in corporate hell trying to get rid of them. To all of you who own your own business, or work in a place without the HR clutter, consider yourself lucky you don't have to put up with this shit. |
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That's a tough position he's putting you in. Hopefully upper management sees things from your side and is able to discern the difference between petty bullshit and valid complaints. This is the point where I'd have my "come to Jesus" talk with the guy. No ambiguous language, no chance for misunderstanding. This is what is expected of you. This is your short term goal, this is your long term goal, stray from this structured path and you'll be replaced. No ifs, ands, or buts. I would have this conversation with another member of management in the room, and I would document everything that happens between you from here on out. Confrontational conversations, emails, everything. |
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My employees are professionals, making between 40k and 51k per year, at least 5 years experience in the field, up to 40 years in some cases. This sentence does not compute. No shit, 51K for 40 years experience? I feel sorry for that poor bastard. |
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My employees are professionals, making between 40k and 51k per year, at least 5 years experience in the field, up to 40 years in some cases. This sentence does not compute. I don't understand. I say professional with the sense that this is a specialized position, and a career profession. It is far from entry level, 5 years is for my youngest employee, most average 10, with the random 60 year old that has been in his whole career. Does my sentence structure not compute? |
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My employees are professionals, making between 40k and 51k per year, at least 5 years experience in the field, up to 40 years in some cases. This sentence does not compute. Let me guess, the problem employee has been there 40 years and makes 51k? |
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My employees are professionals, making between 40k and 51k per year, at least 5 years experience in the field, up to 40 years in some cases. This sentence does not compute. No shit, 51K for 40 years experience? I feel sorry for that poor bastard. Times are tough. The guy is semi retired. He's done a lot in the industry and wants to keep working, doesn't want to deal with the BS of managing anymore. Would rather have fun with his grandkids and make a decent income. |
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Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: My employees are professionals, making between 40k and 51k per year, at least 5 years experience in the field, up to 40 years in some cases. This sentence does not compute. I don't understand. I say professional with the sense that this is a specialized position, and a career profession. It is far from entry level, 5 years is for my youngest employee, most average 10, with the random 60 year old that has been in his whole career. Does my sentence structure not compute? $41-50K is "entry-level" for almost any degreed professional. If I had 40 years experience as a degreed professional and was making $50K, you'd find me swinging from a rope in the garage. Real estate? |
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My employees are professionals, making between 40k and 51k per year, at least 5 years experience in the field, up to 40 years in some cases. This sentence does not compute. Let me guess, the problem employee has been there 40 years and makes 51k? My problem guy has been in the industry for close to 40 years, he has made big money in the past, held high positions, ridden the wave of the market and is now working a position that pays him around 50k plus bonuses of maybe another 15k if he's good. All of his past companies are defunct, and he hasn't been one of the stars to move on to bigger and better things. Notice what that says about him, he has managed his career to the point of working for me, with all of that experience. I'm 28 and have been in this line of work for 9 years. |
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Quoted: There are limits to what every job is worth. Are you guys union or something? figure you turn a bolt for thirty years you deserve six figures?Quoted: Quoted: My employees are professionals, making between 40k and 51k per year, at least 5 years experience in the field, up to 40 years in some cases. This sentence does not compute. No shit, 51K for 40 years experience? I feel sorry for that poor bastard. |
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There are limits to what every job is worth. Are you guys union or something? figure you turn a bolt for thirty years you deserve six figures?
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My employees are professionals, making between 40k and 51k per year, at least 5 years experience in the field, up to 40 years in some cases. This sentence does not compute. No shit, 51K for 40 years experience? I feel sorry for that poor bastard. Maybe you are not professional enough? Bang! |
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My employees are professionals, making between 40k and 51k per year, at least 5 years experience in the field, up to 40 years in some cases. This sentence does not compute. No shit, 51K for 40 years experience? I feel sorry for that poor bastard. Times are tough. The guy is semi retired. He's done a lot in the industry and wants to keep working, doesn't want to deal with the BS of managing anymore. Would rather have fun with his grandkids and make a decent income. An 11K spread for 35 years of experience is pretty terrible. |
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Quoted: There are limits to what every job is worth. Are you guys union or something? figure you turn a bolt for thirty years you deserve six figures? The whole idea of becoming a professional is to develop specialized expertise in a narrow set of skills that are desirable to your client base, thereby making yourself invaluable. To do a job that anyone can do makes one essentially valueless. |
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Quoted: what is this job that nobody else can do that gets you a raise every year even if you don't increase profit for the company as an employee? Seriously. I can understand being part of a specific company long enough that you begin to take on new responsibilities and EARN more money but simply being in a business 40 years doesn't always make you worth more than someone who has done it five years if the job responsibilities are limited.Quoted: There are limits to what every job is worth. Are you guys union or something? figure you turn a bolt for thirty years you deserve six figures? The whole idea of becoming a professional is to develop specialized expertise in a narrow set of skills that are desirable to your client base, thereby making yourself invaluable. To do a job that anyone can do makes one essentially valueless. |
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Real estate? Sort of, banking, mortgage servicing. That explains it. Having had past managerial experience I can say that people who have managed before in the same field make terrible employees. They have a mentality of "I know your job better than you" that makes dealing with them unbearable at times. Sounds like the case here to me. |
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Quoted: what is this job that nobody else can do that gets you a raise every year even if you don't increase profit for the company as an employee? Seriously. I can understand being part of a specific company long enough that you begin to take on new responsibilities and EARN more money but simply being in a business 40 years doesn't always make you worth more than someone who has done it five years if the job responsibilities are limited. Did you not see the "develop specialized expertise" part of my previous post? Most guys with 40 years of experience really only have 1 year of experience, 40 times in a row. In a true skilled profession, you get to be very good at something that no one else (in your own company or your would-be competitors) can do. When you become the sole source for that particular skill or knowledge, you set your own fees, rates, salary or whatever. |
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Quoted: oh, I agree with that.Quoted: what is this job that nobody else can do that gets you a raise every year even if you don't increase profit for the company as an employee? Seriously. I can understand being part of a specific company long enough that you begin to take on new responsibilities and EARN more money but simply being in a business 40 years doesn't always make you worth more than someone who has done it five years if the job responsibilities are limited. Did you not see the "develop specialized expertise" part of my previous post? Most guys with 40 years of experience really only have 1 year of experience, 40 times in a row. In a true skilled profession, you get to be very good at something that no one else (in your own company or your would-be competitors) can do. When you become the sole source for that particular skill or knowledge, you set your own fees, rates, salary or whatever. I was just commenting on the assertions in this thread that the people at this guys job were worth more than 50 k simply because some of them had been in the business for a long time. |
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He might be thinking about un-employment insurance. 18 months baby. A guy I work with now came back from retirement (lost his ass in the market). We were talking the other morning about how we are slowly being micromanaged to death ever since they brought in a new operations manager. Increased workload, more tedious "make work" and cuts in hours to boot. All while the company spends loads of cash on useless new equipment. Either way he jokingly informed me of his cunning plan to get himself terminated now and draw unemployment for the next 18 months until he can draw full SS. |
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Quoted: oh, I agree with that. I was just commenting on the assertions in this thread that the people at this guys job were worth more than 50 k simply because some of them had been in the business for a long time. They're clearly NOT worth more than that. If they had 40 years' of experience in a marketable field, they'd be working somewhere else, or playing tennis with their 28-year-old Lebanese trophy wife. I think what several of us are getting to is that the OP's company is not really a "professional" job, and that the people who work there are in a dead-end job on a dead-end career path. |
| Does not make a difference these days with shit folding left and right but to me who has never made big bucks a grand a week and benefits is fat right now.At his age he ought to have most of his shit in order and could live on lower income.The problem these days for lots of people that a high rate of pay is expected, no matter what work effort is expended by the employee |
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Since when was experience the only determining factor in someones value? If the work produced by a <insert position here> is only worth 50k to the company, do you really think they ought to pay a guy more than 50k to do it? If that guy doesn't like his pay shouldn't he use all of the knowledge he gained from his 40 years of experience to move up the ladder? Maybe he can't, maybe he doesn't want to. None of those are reasons why someone should make more money simply because they have experience. |
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My employees are professionals, making between 40k and 51k per year, at least 5 years experience in the field, up to 40 years in some cases. This sentence does not compute. No shit, 51K for 40 years experience? I feel sorry for that poor bastard. I can tell whose never worked in FL. $51K anywhere other than S FL is decent money unless you are a CEO. People used to move down there cause, wouldnt it be great, it would be like being on vacation all the time. When they found out they were gonna take a 50% pay cut to do the same job, they packed up and moved back up north in 3 months. Happens all the time. You ever hear the phrase, " you get paid in sunshine?" Its the truth. |
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My employees are professionals, making between 40k and 51k per year, at least 5 years experience in the field, up to 40 years in some cases. This sentence does not compute. No shit, 51K for 40 years experience? I feel sorry for that poor bastard. I can tell whose never worked in FL. $51K anywhere other than S FL is decent money unless you are a CEO. People used to move down there cause, wouldnt it be great, it would be like being on vacation all the time. When they found out they were gonna take a 50% pay cut to do the same job, they packed up and moved back up north in 3 months. Happens all the time. You ever hear the phrase, " you get paid in sunshine?" Its the truth. For the first time I can say clearly I'm in the right line of work 
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..... I feel that I am a good manger. I hate writing people up, or firing them. I work with them as much as I can and give many chances before they are in trouble. It is my goal that I treat everyone fairly and with respect, I was doing what they are doing not too long ago. I receive good feedback from my good employees, because they know how to do their jobs and they recognize I am there to support them. This guy is a total whack job and I'm stuck in corporate hell trying to get rid of them. To all of you who own your own business, or work in a place without the HR clutter, consider yourself lucky you don't have to put up with this shit. Don't take it personally. At your level you are a score keeper. The company has policies, goals and objectives. When it comes to HR issues you only keep score. When a staff member hits a home run you document it, when they strike out you document, when they drop a turd in the punch bowl you document. You should deflect and not accept his failures as your own. When you communicate with him you should tell him that you really don't like it when he does this because he has given you no choice and now you have to stay late to document his failures. You should be judging on three elements. 1. Technical expertise - is the employee recognized as a technical expert by others in his/her field. 2. Passion to accomplish the task - This means getting things done, not just really working hard. 3. Is the employee recognized by other as a valuable asset to the team. If a member fails on one element, work with them to improve their performance. If they fail on two elements, then the employee has a real problem they must solve. If you stick to these rating factors, you will keep out of HR hell. |
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Quoted: It sounds like he is self destructing. Its sad, but there is nothing you can really do to stop this when he is determined to do this to himself. +1 Sit back and enjoy the show... he is digging his own grave. Complaining to the CEO about vaca request is a fast track to a permanent vacation. |
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That's a tough position he's putting you in. Hopefully upper management sees things from your side and is able to discern the difference between petty bullshit and valid complaints. This is the point where I'd have my "come to Jesus" talk with the guy. No ambiguous language, no chance for misunderstanding. This is what is expected of you. This is your short term goal, this is your long term goal, stray from this structured path and you'll be replaced. No ifs, ands, or buts. I would have this conversation with another member of management in the room, and I would document everything that happens between you from here on out. Confrontational conversations, emails, everything. This is what you need to do for you. You are right on the borderline of being the target for the company to fire...not the "victim". It could easily flip. Trust me. I was responsible for 600+ employees in a RICO; now I work for a decent organization, I only manage a total of 10, but no more digestive problems. This company you work for has a problem; it's become a bureaucracy without having the ability to stay in business by taxing the general public. The long-term solution is for you to find a better company to work for. After this guy is history, the organization will find other ways to make your life miserable, not necessarily deliberately, but just because its a bad company structure. |
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As others have said, he's paving the path to his own termination. I've seen it happen twice recently at company I work for. One guy was given FIVE warnings about working on the side (owned a lawn care/snow plowing biz) while on the clock.  After getting caught RED HANDED ON VIDEO for the fourth time, supv & local HR warned him again saying "this is your last warning". His reaction was to hire a lawyer and make charges to corp HR about "hostile work environment". Last December he was caught for the fifth time plowing snow in his personal vehicle while on company time. Supv suspended him on the spot. HR took it under advisement. The guy was 56yrs old with 33yrs 8 months of service. You need a total of 90 points (age + yrs of service) for full retirement here. It took a month but HR terminated him. It was a sweet deal for him, they "fired" him by giving him 4 months service & told him he's fully retired. This dude has been a problem child for years - I suspect bi-polar - but he was carried for years. He was the bad seed and a disruptive element in the work place. He was the one to stir the pot and toss shit just to stand back watch the turmoil he caused. Last I heard he's been riding around video taping me and my co-workers as we work. He's trying to build a case for wrongful termination. To the OP, keep building a book on the guy. Get your documentation right & he will push the stick over and spin into the ground on his own. |
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It sounds like he is self destructing. Its sad, but there is nothing you can really do to stop this when he is determined to do this to himself. This, I think that all managers have had an employee self destruct for one reason or another. Terminate him and move on. |
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what is this job that nobody else can do that gets you a raise every year even if you don't increase profit for the company as an employee? Seriously. I can understand being part of a specific company long enough that you begin to take on new responsibilities and EARN more money but simply being in a business 40 years doesn't always make you worth more than someone who has done it five years if the job responsibilities are limited.
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There are limits to what every job is worth. Are you guys union or something? figure you turn a bolt for thirty years you deserve six figures? The whole idea of becoming a professional is to develop specialized expertise in a narrow set of skills that are desirable to your client base, thereby making yourself invaluable. To do a job that anyone can do makes one essentially valueless. I'm guessing you don't work for a big company. Even though they don't deserve a raise, 'years on the job' drove many worthless people's salaries around here through the roof. and continues to do so. Always feels good to be answering basic questions for someone in your same position that makes 2x what you do. sigh. 
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| People can be crazy. You never know, since he is sending all these emails and complaining, maybe he thinks he can build a case for something against the company and come out of it with a little bit of "just go away" money instead of a court case. I've seen crazier things happen... |
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Tell your chicken sh*t HR people to get this sorry SOB the hell off your team and preferably out the door ASAP. This bad apple will spoil the rest and cause untold chaos unless action is taken...immediately.
He's turned himself into a suicide bomber and will take as many with him as he can. |
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dude, do you work in my office??? we have an employee EXACTLY like that. and i can't for the life of me figure out why they haven't fired him. cept he reads the employee handbook forwards and backwards, and i guess HR is scared of a lawsuit. they just moved him to another department with lower pay and stricter deadlines, i hope he fucks up enough they finally let him go, MULTIPLE GOOD employee's have decided to leave rather then work with him, which is complete bullshit. Quoted: I run a team of 11 in an office environment for a small corporation of about 600 people. My employees are professionals, making between 40k and 51k per year, at least 5 years experience in the field, up to 40 years in some cases. I have this employee who has a ton of experience, has managed at all levels, and has fallen back into a line level position due to the economy and shrinking of our market. Our job is production based, and results driven. This guy gets caught up in strategy and big picture business that is none of his concern, and he ends up missing details of his own responsibility and position. He just cost the company 20k for f'ing up an insurance claim by losing some important original documents that couldn't be replaced. This incident caused my director to place him on final written warning, which is basically a lit fuse for termination. I have had talks with the guy about his performance, suggested ways he can handle situations better, and how he can contribute to the team. I told him during his warning discussion that he needs to focus on details, and leave the strategy to management. He was not expecting such a harsh punishment, he felt he should only receive a verbal warning. So what he does he do? He goes to HR and files a complaint that management doesn't respond to his requests in a timely fashion. One example was him saying that I took too long to approve vacation time for him, and he had to cancel his flight with a penalty. This is after he has requested and canceled time on 3 different occasions because he couldn't book certain dates with frequent flier miles. He made his final request on Saturday, and I approved it on Monday, and he says that's too late. He is sending rude and disrespectful emails to me and copying our VP or HR. I've been told to ignore the emails and treat him like any other employee. Apparently his complaint has made it to our CEO and it's being reviewed by his office. The HR VP sent him an email today saying thanks for the input, but quit copying me and deal with your site HR director. He is trying to find holes in every little process we have going on. I can't tell if he wants to get fired, or is trying to get a rise out of me, or what?? His management experience has shown him what to do to push the right buttons of HR and our leadership, but he has no ground to stand on. It will all wash out to him being incompetent and not right for the job. The challenge lies in having to work with this prick for however long it takes for us to kick him to the curb. Putting up with his fake personality while he is sending these shitty emails and answering his stupid questions, all while trying not to pick on him and single him out for the sake of hot railing him out of there. He would love to make a complaint he's being treated unfairly. I feel that I am a good manger. I hate writing people up, or firing them. I work with them as much as I can and give many chances before they are in trouble. It is my goal that I treat everyone fairly and with respect, I was doing what they are doing not too long ago. I receive good feedback from my good employees, because they know how to do their jobs and they recognize I am there to support them. This guy is a total whack job and I'm stuck in corporate hell trying to get rid of them. To all of you who own your own business, or work in a place without the HR clutter, consider yourself lucky you don't have to put up with this shit. |