[ARCHIVED THREAD] - Problems at Front Site? (Page 1 of 2)
Posted: 5/18/2009 12:40:24 PM EDT
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Anytime this place comes up in discussion on most "gun boards" people come out of the woodwork to defend them. Me, I've always been pretty skeptical of them-too many ventilated students for my liking. Lots of long time, respected trainers have told me to "stay the fuck away from those people".....Guess they were right.
http://www.pahrumpvalleytimes.com/2009/May-15-Fri-2009/news/28773367.html Even James Rawles has severed ties with Piazza at this point. |
| From my understanding, rico was one of the allegations of the plaintiffs. the plaintiffs had used the site over 200 times respectively, hired a dirt bag attorney and brought a class action lawsuit, due soley to marketing. The suit was dismissed after an amount was agreed to be paid out. Payment was made, but FS attorneys felt between the extensive use of the facilities, and the fees currently paid out that enough was enough. I imagine FS is going to appeal the amount the plaintiffs claim they still owe. It's basically a bunch of scumbags trying to use frivolous lawsuit against the organization. It's much ado about nothing. |
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Piazza's gorilla marketing technique of sending frequent e-mails with special price offers to prospective members...
I find monkey marketing more effective. November 2005 when Stacy James, Bill Haag and Michael Schriber filed a class action suit against Piazza on behalf of themselves and other qualified Front Sight members.
The suit mentions "violations of RICO, unfair advertising and competition, Nevada Sale of Subdivided Land Act, fraudulent conveyances, Consumer Legal Remedies Act, Interstate Land Sales Full Disclosure Act, breach of contract and fraud," all based on Piazza's sale of lifetime memberships.... I thought this was a real estate thing? IIRC, Piazza was trying to build a gun-lover's sub division, financing fell through and some participants felt they had been taken, then sued. On October 15, 2007, a settlement was reached and Ware dismissed the suit with the stipulation Front Sight live up to the negotiated terms. A settlement fund of $8,050,000 secured by a lien on Front Sight's assets would let the class foreclose if the fund was not fully funded by October 15, 2008.... The settlement also said Piazza had to allow members who were part of the suit to use their Front Sight memberships until the settlement fund was fully paid. Further, he was ordered by the court not to retaliate or make derogatory remarks against James, Haag and Schriber.
According to C. Keith Greer, attorney for the class, Piazza violated all the agreed upon terms. At the end of the prescribed year, the fund was short by more than $5.4 million. The day after the fund came up short, Piazza send a letter to everyone involved in the suit, saying Front Sight was no longer obligated to make additional monthly payments because the class action had forced the first mortgage holder on the property to foreclose. "This is a lie as no one foreclosed on the property on that day or any day since," said Greer....According to Greer, "Defendant Piazza also boasts that, in violation of the court order against encumbering the property, he created Front Sight Management II and signed a 99-year lease with the old Front Sight entity, leasing the land, water rights, entitlements, equipment, weapons, licenses, trademarks, copyrights, intellectual property, Internet sites, accounts, etc. Every asset the old Front Sight had is now leased by the new Front Sight entity."... Ware granted the request, setting the hearing date for date for March 23. Piazza did not appear, nor did he send any representative to appear on Front Sight's behalf. He did, however, fire his attorney at the last minute, which the judge called an "eleventh-hour dismissal" when he issued an order for Piazza to show cause why he should not be held in contempt of court and subject to sanctions for failing to appear. That hearing to show cause was held Monday, resulting in Ware's decision that Front Sight had defaulted on its agreement with the class. All assets belonging to Front Sight and Piazza were seized by the court. Wow, Piazza sounds like his own worst enemy. I don't know jack about the law, but leasing everything from yourself and pretending that you're an entirely new organization in what I assume was an attempt to kill the lawsuit settlement sounds tailor made to piss off a judge. You'd think the booming training business would keep him in the green, but maybe some real estate/market losses on top of the settlement crushed him. Granted, we're only hearing one side here, but the lease thing and not showing up for the hearing... |
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Don't believe everything you read in the newspaper, or on the internet.
I don't but when I have guys that have been in "the business" for 20-30 years tell me that "those people are dangerous, stay the fuck away from them" - exact words from a guy that was one of Col. Cooper's good friends and trainers....That tells me what I want to know, especially combined with all the other interesting tidbits you can find if you only look. |
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Quoted:
Piazza's gorilla marketing technique of sending frequent e-mails with special price offers to prospective members...
I find monkey marketing more effective. November 2005 when Stacy James, Bill Haag and Michael Schriber filed a class action suit against Piazza on behalf of themselves and other qualified Front Sight members.
The suit mentions "violations of RICO, unfair advertising and competition, Nevada Sale of Subdivided Land Act, fraudulent conveyances, Consumer Legal Remedies Act, Interstate Land Sales Full Disclosure Act, breach of contract and fraud," all based on Piazza's sale of lifetime memberships.... I thought this was a real estate thing? IIRC, Piazza was trying to build a gun-lover's sub division, financing fell through and some participants felt they had been taken, then sued. On October 15, 2007, a settlement was reached and Ware dismissed the suit with the stipulation Front Sight live up to the negotiated terms. A settlement fund of $8,050,000 secured by a lien on Front Sight's assets would let the class foreclose if the fund was not fully funded by October 15, 2008.... The settlement also said Piazza had to allow members who were part of the suit to use their Front Sight memberships until the settlement fund was fully paid. Further, he was ordered by the court not to retaliate or make derogatory remarks against James, Haag and Schriber.
According to C. Keith Greer, attorney for the class, Piazza violated all the agreed upon terms. At the end of the prescribed year, the fund was short by more than $5.4 million. The day after the fund came up short, Piazza send a letter to everyone involved in the suit, saying Front Sight was no longer obligated to make additional monthly payments because the class action had forced the first mortgage holder on the property to foreclose. "This is a lie as no one foreclosed on the property on that day or any day since," said Greer....According to Greer, "Defendant Piazza also boasts that, in violation of the court order against encumbering the property, he created Front Sight Management II and signed a 99-year lease with the old Front Sight entity, leasing the land, water rights, entitlements, equipment, weapons, licenses, trademarks, copyrights, intellectual property, Internet sites, accounts, etc. Every asset the old Front Sight had is now leased by the new Front Sight entity."... Ware granted the request, setting the hearing date for date for March 23. Piazza did not appear, nor did he send any representative to appear on Front Sight's behalf. He did, however, fire his attorney at the last minute, which the judge called an "eleventh-hour dismissal" when he issued an order for Piazza to show cause why he should not be held in contempt of court and subject to sanctions for failing to appear. That hearing to show cause was held Monday, resulting in Ware's decision that Front Sight had defaulted on its agreement with the class. All assets belonging to Front Sight and Piazza were seized by the court. Wow, Piazza sounds like his own worst enemy. I don't know jack about the law, but leasing everything from yourself and pretending that you're an entirely new organization in what I assume was an attempt to kill the lawsuit settlement sounds tailor made to piss off a judge. You'd think the booming training business would keep him in the green, but maybe some real estate/market losses on top of the settlement crushed him. Granted, we're only hearing one side here, but the lease thing and not showing up for the hearing... being a business man myself, the leasing thing is a perfectly legal maneuver, and is done by corporations all over the country. This all boils down to a dispute on what was owed on the original suit(which only commifornia would have allowed) in the end a final determination will eventually be made on what if anything more is owed. |
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Their advertising blitz around the first of the year for a Free Gun and Training (for only $1200) didn't pass the smell test in my mind.
It doesn't surprise me that there have been some people unhappy with other deals. |
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While I'm not one to criticize people's personal choice of religion, I'll say that a certain scientologist crazy had it comin'...
Xenu is having his revenge! http://home.snafu.de/tilman/clearwater1998/xenu981205072.gif |
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Quoted:
Their advertising blitz around the first of the year for a Free Gun and Training (for only $1200) didn't pass the smell test in my mind. It doesn't surprise me that there have been some people unhappy with other deals. I took them up on this offer in March, and came back a much better shooter. I also got a free XD in 45 to boot. When it transferred into my dealer, it came with a letter stating that this was a gift, and not subject to any sales tax. Nice. |
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Does anyone know the history of Ignatius Piazza? I know he was a Chiropractor in California. Did he ever work for / train at Gunsite? Just reading the internet, I cannot find out who certified him a Four Weapons Combat Master. A man by the name of Chuck Taylor. |
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For those willing to fall on a sword for this schill:
You really might want to check into him and his operation before doing so. There's a reason he shunned by pretty much every other reputable firearms instructor. There's a reason he owes people millions. There's a reason his students and instructors are banned at many hotels. |
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Does anyone know the history of Ignatius Piazza? I know he was a Chiropractor in California. Did he ever work for / train at Gunsite? Just reading the internet, I cannot find out who certified him a Four Weapons Combat Master. A man by the name of Chuck Taylor. This Chuck Taylor? 
"The "Tactical" XD-9 has a 5-inch barrel, while the barrel of the "standard" model measures 4 inches. However, the barrel of the "sub-compact" version is only 3 inches, thus reducing muzzle velocity by a full 40 percent."
"Let's say that a given 9mm load produces 1400 fps from the 5-inch "Tactical" model, which is more than enough to expect significant JHP expansion. From the 4-inch barrel "standard" model, we can expect a substantial reduction to about 1120 fps...However, with this same load, the 3-inch sub-compact only generates about 840 fps." -Chuck Taylor June, 2008 issue of Combat Handguns |
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Does anyone know the history of Ignatius Piazza? I know he was a Chiropractor in California. Did he ever work for / train at Gunsite? Just reading the internet, I cannot find out who certified him a Four Weapons Combat Master. A man by the name of Chuck Taylor. This Chuck Taylor?
"The "Tactical" XD-9 has a 5-inch barrel, while the barrel of the "standard" model measures 4 inches. However, the barrel of the "sub-compact" version is only 3 inches, thus reducing muzzle velocity by a full 40 percent."
"Let's say that a given 9mm load produces 1400 fps from the 5-inch "Tactical" model, which is more than enough to expect significant JHP expansion. From the 4-inch barrel "standard" model, we can expect a substantial reduction to about 1120 fps...However, with this same load, the 3-inch sub-compact only generates about 840 fps." -Chuck Taylor June, 2008 issue of Combat Handguns This is the one I was refering to: The author of over 5000 magazine articles, three magazine columns ("Combat Corner" - COMBAT HANDGUNS; "Sharpshooter" - GUNS & WEAPONS FOR LAW ENFORCEMENT and "Handguns In Combat" - HANDGUNS) and four successful books (THE COMPLETE BOOK OF COMBAT HANDGUNNING, THE FIGHTING RIFLE, THE COMBAT SHOTGUN & SUBMACHINE GUN and his latest work, the 4th edition of THE GUN DIGEST BOOK OF COMBAT HANDGUNNERY) on weapons & tactics, Chuck Taylor is an Adjunct Professor Of Police Science, Court-Recognized Expert Witness and the first 4-Weapon COMBAT MASTER. A qualified parachutist and decorated Vietnam Veteran who served two combat tours in that conflict, he is both AIRBORNE and RANGER qualified, with additional expertise in SWAT and Counter-Terrorist Operations. An NRA-certified Rifle & Pistol Instructor, former World-Class IPSC competitor & U.S. Team member, he also held NRA Expert Ratings with Light Rifle, High-Power Carbine and High-Power Rifle. While on active military duty, he earned Expert ratings with the M1911 .45 pistol, M-1, M-14 & M-16 rifles, M-14A1 squad automatic rifle, M-60 machine gun and M-79 40mm grenade launcher and has successfully qualified 7 times as a Handgun Combat Master with as many different handguns. As the founder/director of The American Small Arms Academy, he has been involved in the training of tactical and security personnel of a number of both well-known and covert military & police special-operations units. For the last ten years, Chuck has been rated by virtually all of the gun magazines as one of the so-called "Big Four," the four best trainers in the world and, in January, 1996, was honored when the Swiss Army (and, in January, 1997, the Swiss Air Force) formally adopted his rifle, submachine gun & handgun techniques. Since then, more than 300,000 personnel have been trained in Taylor's methods, earning him even more international recognition. In January, 2003, the Belgian Army followed suit and in the coming years, apporximately 100,000 additional Belgian personnel will receive training in Chuck's weapon-handling and shooting methods, making him the only professional trainer in the world to have his techniques adopted by several major military powers. Chuck's contributions to the field of combat handgunning are numerous, far-reaching and widely copied. Among his accomplishments in this area are the creation of the Tactical Reload, proven-superior methods of Malfunction Clearing, Multiple Target Engagement and Responses to the left and rear, shooting while moving and the adaptation of the Speed Rock and Stepback into highly effective close-range emergency response procedures. As a result, feature articles on his techniques and instructional programs have appeared in internationally-known publications, such as AIM and FIRE! (Belgium), DEUTCHES WAFFEN JOURNAL (Germany), ACTION GUNS & LeCIBLE (France), SWISS ARMY JOURNAL, ARMAS Y MUNITIONS (Spain), INTERNATIONAL DEFENSE REVIEW & INTERSEC (Britain), Guns & Ammo HANDGUNS, COMBAT HANDGUNS, SPECIAL WEAPONS, SWAT, SHOOTIST, GLOCKSTER and a multitude of newspapers. In addition, he has received multiple commendations from the U.S. Department Of Justice, Drug Enforcement Administration (DEA) & Federal Bureau Of Investigation (FBI), International Association Of Law Enforcement Firearms Instructors (IALEFI), U.S. Special Operations Command (USSOCOM), U.S. Army Special Forces, U.S. Navy Special Warfare and dozens of SWAT units and law-enforcement agencies worldwide. A sometimes controversial innovator with an unflinching commitment to results, Chuck's techniques are credited with saving the lives of hundreds of law-enforcement officers, military personnel and civilians alike. In fact, as students, many of his professional colleagues learned much of what they know from Taylor. As the Director of The American Small Arms Academy, he can be found either in the field training or conducting research in pursuit of his lifelong goal –– saving lives by advancing the state-of-the-art of combat weaponcraft. |
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Their advertising blitz around the first of the year for a Free Gun and Training (for only $1200) didn't pass the smell test in my mind. It doesn't surprise me that there have been some people unhappy with other deals. I took them up on this offer in March, and came back a much better shooter. I also got a free XD in 45 to boot. When it transferred into my dealer, it came with a letter stating that this was a gift, and not subject to any sales tax. Nice. I took them up on the offer and have received neither the firearm nor the training yet... Lawyer up? Having said that, I had told them that I intended to accomplish the training and receive the firearm when I move back to Vegas this fall... |
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For those willing to fall on a sword for this schill: You really might want to check into him and his operation before doing so. There's a reason he shunned by pretty much every other reputable firearms instructor. There's a reason he owes people millions. There's a reason his students and instructors are banned at many hotels. I was a Rangemaster and instructor there (in Bakersfield, CA and later in Pahrump) in the late 1990's. Good training acumen back then, although markedly similar to Clint's and Col. Cooper's schools (at the time). No surprises there. I left for several reasons in 1999, none of which I care to discuss here, as past litigations involving FS have targeted former employees/students etc. for slander and libel. None of the crew I worked with back then (save management) are associated with FS now. The Modern Pistol Technique, along with all other firearms training doctrines, aren't the sole property of any school, despite claims otherwise. lawsuits are common enough, but usually businesses avoid them due to bad press. My own experience dictates that long-term flurries of litigation are similar to flies congregating about horseshit - something must be attracting them. |
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This Chuck Taylor?
"The "Tactical" XD-9 has a 5-inch barrel, while the barrel of the "standard" model measures 4 inches. However, the barrel of the "sub-compact" version is only 3 inches, thus reducing muzzle velocity by a full 40 percent."
"Let's say that a given 9mm load produces 1400 fps from the 5-inch "Tactical" model, which is more than enough to expect significant JHP expansion. From the 4-inch barrel "standard" model, we can expect a substantial reduction to about 1120 fps...However, with this same load, the 3-inch sub-compact only generates about 840 fps." -Chuck Taylor June, 2008 issue of Combat Handguns This is the one I was refering to: ... Yeah, I see you copied and pasted that directly from his website. I never claimed that Chuck wasn't a shameless self-promoter. Not knowing anything about a subject doesn't stop him from claiming to be an expert on it. |
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Does anyone know the history of Ignatius Piazza? I know he was a Chiropractor in California. Did he ever work for / train at Gunsite? Just reading the internet, I cannot find out who certified him a Four Weapons Combat Master. A man by the name of Chuck Taylor. Piazza did train at Gunsite. He also got whatever their distinguished graduate award is called from every class they had. However, according to one of the Gunsite instructors I talked to, Piazza took each class over and over until he did what he did. Which I honestly can't find fault with (unlike the instructor that told me this). I mean, he went there to get better. He took the classes until he achieved what he set out to do: he was obviously learning and improving. I thought that was the goal of the whole program. The Gunsite instructor that told me this seemed to think that taking the class over and over somehow diminished the accomplishment, but as I said, I don't agree. I don't know if he ever worked there, but the operations manager of Front Sight was a range master at Gunsite. The "Combat Master" test is something dreamed up by Chuck Taylor. And, the tests are given based on his criteria by people he certifies (or whatever) to give the test. It is a standardized course of fire and is quite challenging (I took the pistol part of the test in a certified class FWIW). The four weapon combat master is quite an achievement: do an internet search and see what it is all about. One of the biggest challenges of the four weapon part of it is that you have to take all four tests consecutively and if you fail any one of them you have to start all over again. The test really doesn't have anything to do with combat, it is just a course of fire with extreamly tight time constraints. You can find the course of fire on several different websites. You basically just practice this course of fire over and over until you can do it with a score and time that meet his requirements. And you have to do this on demand during a test given by someone who Taylor certifes to give the test. I took a class that spend several days shooting this course of fire over and over. Fine tuning each portion of it and trying to get your time and accuracy to within the limits. At the end, you take the whole test. No one at the class I took passed it. Some of the people had taken the class a dozen times or more. There are people who have taken it far more than a dozen times and have never passed it. I am NOT saying that this test has anything to do with defensive pistol shooting, combat, or anything else. But it is a challenge and fun way to spend a weekend. FWIW: there are only like 20 people who ever passed just the pistol part of the test on a legitimate test. I am not saying that a lot more than that couldn't pass it, they probably never tried, but among those who have tried during one of his certified tests, there are only like 20 people who have ever passed the pistol test. Obviously far fewer have passed the four weapon "combat master" since you have to pass the pistol test first to even qualify to take the four weapon test and then pass the pistol test again along with the other three weapons (shotgun, SMG, and rifle). FWIW: I have taken 17 classes at Front Sight as well as four classes at Gunsite (223, 556, 260, 250). I have also taken several of those Front Sight classes with one of the guys who filed that class action lawsuit. As far as the guy who said, don't believe everything you read, keep one thing in mind as you read this thread: There are people who have been to Front Sight and there are people who will speak with the voice of authoirty who have never been there and don't know shit about it. The latter will be the majority of replies you get to this thread. |
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This Chuck Taylor?
"The "Tactical" XD-9 has a 5-inch barrel, while the barrel of the "standard" model measures 4 inches. However, the barrel of the "sub-compact" version is only 3 inches, thus reducing muzzle velocity by a full 40 percent."
"Let's say that a given 9mm load produces 1400 fps from the 5-inch "Tactical" model, which is more than enough to expect significant JHP expansion. From the 4-inch barrel "standard" model, we can expect a substantial reduction to about 1120 fps...However, with this same load, the 3-inch sub-compact only generates about 840 fps." -Chuck Taylor June, 2008 issue of Combat Handguns This is the one I was refering to: ... Yeah, I see you copied and pasted that directly from his website. I never claimed that Chuck wasn't a shameless self-promoter. Not knowing anything about a subject doesn't stop him from claiming to be an expert on it. One doesn't write 5,000 articles without making a couple bonehead moves. Chuck has forgotten more about shooting then you'll ever know. You don't have to like him, but you should show some respect for the guy. |
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Does anyone know the history of Ignatius Piazza? I know he was a Chiropractor in California. Did he ever work for / train at Gunsite? Just reading the internet, I cannot find out who certified him a Four Weapons Combat Master. A man by the name of Chuck Taylor. Piazza did train at Gunsite. He also got whatever their distinguished graduate award is called from every class they had. However, according to one of the Gunsite instructors I talked to, Piazza took each class over and over until he did what he did. Which I honestly can't find fault with (unlike the instructor that told me this). I mean, he went there to get better. He took the classes until he achieved what he set out to do: he was obviously learning and improving. I thought that was the goal of the whole program. I don't know if he ever worked there, but the operations manager of Front Sight was a range master at Gunsite. The "Combat Master" test is something dreamed up by Chuck Taylor. And, the tests are given based on his criteria and by people he certifies (or whatever) to give the test. It is a standardized course of fire and is quite challenging (I took the pistol part of the test in a certified class FWIW). The four weapon combat master is quite an achievement: do an internet search and see what it is all about. One of the biggest challenges of the four weapon part of it is that you have to take all four tests consecutively and if you fail any one of them you have to start all over again. The test really doesn't have anything to do with combat, it is just a course of fire with extreamly tight time constraints. FWIW: I have taken 17 classes at Front Sight as well as four classes at Gunsite (223, 556, 260, 250). I have also taken several of those Front Sight classes with one of the guys who filed that class action lawsuit. As far as the guy who said, don't believe everything you read, keep one thing in mind as you read this thread: There are people who have been to Front Sight and there are people who will speak with the voice of authoirty who have never been there and don't know shit about it. The latter will be the majority of replies you get to this thread. Thanks for the answer. I took a class there in 2002. It was interesting. 
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This Chuck Taylor?
"The "Tactical" XD-9 has a 5-inch barrel, while the barrel of the "standard" model measures 4 inches. However, the barrel of the "sub-compact" version is only 3 inches, thus reducing muzzle velocity by a full 40 percent."
"Let's say that a given 9mm load produces 1400 fps from the 5-inch "Tactical" model, which is more than enough to expect significant JHP expansion. From the 4-inch barrel "standard" model, we can expect a substantial reduction to about 1120 fps...However, with this same load, the 3-inch sub-compact only generates about 840 fps." -Chuck Taylor June, 2008 issue of Combat Handguns This is the one I was referring to: ... Yeah, I see you copied and pasted that directly from his website. I never claimed that Chuck wasn't a shameless self-promoter. Not knowing anything about a subject doesn't stop him from claiming to be an expert on it. Well if you read the copy and paste job you would see he isn't the only one claiming expertise. "shameless self-promoter" is usually referred to as advertisement....it's good business practice. You won't have a business without it. |
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Four Weapon Combat Master
Four Weapon Combat Master FWIW: If I passed any of these tests, I would brag about it too. |
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Wait... so a competitor of Front Sight told you to stay away? Wow, that's really unusual. Quoted: Don't believe everything you read in the newspaper, or on the internet. I don't but when I have guys that have been in "the business" for 20-30 years tell me that "those people are dangerous, stay the fuck away from them" - exact words from a guy that was one of Col. Cooper's good friends and trainers....That tells me what I want to know, especially combined with all the other interesting tidbits you can find if you only look. |
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Wait... so a competitor of Front Sight told you to stay away? Wow, that's really unusual.
Quoted:
Don't believe everything you read in the newspaper, or on the internet.
I don't but when I have guys that have been in "the business" for 20-30 years tell me that "those people are dangerous, stay the fuck away from them" - exact words from a guy that was one of Col. Cooper's good friends and trainers....That tells me what I want to know, especially combined with all the other interesting tidbits you can find if you only look. 
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Does anyone know the history of Ignatius Piazza? I know he was a Chiropractor in California. Did he ever work for / train at Gunsite? Just reading the internet, I cannot find out who certified him a Four Weapons Combat Master. A man by the name of Chuck Taylor. Piazza did train at Gunsite. He also got whatever their distinguished graduate award is called from every class they had. However, according to one of the Gunsite instructors I talked to, Piazza took each class over and over until he did what he did. Which I honestly can't find fault with (unlike the instructor that told me this). I mean, he went there to get better. He took the classes until he achieved what he set out to do: he was obviously learning and improving. I thought that was the goal of the whole program. The Gunsite instructor that told me this seemed to think that taking the class over and over somehow diminished the accomplishment, but as I said, I don't agree. I don't know if he ever worked there, but the operations manager of Front Sight was a range master at Gunsite. The "Combat Master" test is something dreamed up by Chuck Taylor. And, the tests are given based on his criteria by people he certifies (or whatever) to give the test. It is a standardized course of fire and is quite challenging (I took the pistol part of the test in a certified class FWIW). The four weapon combat master is quite an achievement: do an internet search and see what it is all about. One of the biggest challenges of the four weapon part of it is that you have to take all four tests consecutively and if you fail any one of them you have to start all over again. The test really doesn't have anything to do with combat, it is just a course of fire with extreamly tight time constraints. You can find the course of fire on several different websites. You basically just practice this course of fire over and over until you can do it with a score and time that meet his requirements. And you have to do this on demand during a test given by someone who Taylor certifes to give the test. I took a class that spend several days shooting this course of fire over and over. Fine tuning each portion of it and trying to get your time and accuracy to within the limits. At the end, you take the whole test. No one at the class I took passed it. Some of the people had taken the class a dozen times or more. There are people who have taken it far more than a dozen times and have never passed it. I am NOT saying that this test has anything to do with defensive pistol shooting, combat, or anything else. But it is a challenge and fun way to spend a weekend. FWIW: there are only like 20 people who ever passed just the pistol part of the test on a legitimate test. I am not saying that a lot more than that couldn't pass it, they probably never tried, but among those who have tried during one of his certified tests, there are only like 20 people who have ever passed the pistol test. Obviously far fewer have passed the four weapon "combat master" since you have to pass the pistol test first to even qualify to take the four weapon test and then pass the pistol test again along with the other three weapons (shotgun, SMG, and rifle). FWIW: I have taken 17 classes at Front Sight as well as four classes at Gunsite (223, 556, 260, 250). I have also taken several of those Front Sight classes with one of the guys who filed that class action lawsuit. As far as the guy who said, don't believe everything you read, keep one thing in mind as you read this thread: There are people who have been to Front Sight and there are people who will speak with the voice of authoirty who have never been there and don't know shit about it. The latter will be the majority of replies you get to this thread. Will do...thanks. 
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Does anyone know the history of Ignatius Piazza? I know he was a Chiropractor in California. Did he ever work for / train at Gunsite? Just reading the internet, I cannot find out who certified him a Four Weapons Combat Master. A man by the name of Chuck Taylor. Piazza did train at Gunsite. He also got whatever their distinguished graduate award is called from every class they had. However, according to one of the Gunsite instructors I talked to, Piazza took each class over and over until he did what he did. Which I honestly can't find fault with (unlike the instructor that told me this). I mean, he went there to get better. He took the classes until he achieved what he set out to do: he was obviously learning and improving. I thought that was the goal of the whole program. The Gunsite instructor that told me this seemed to think that taking the class over and over somehow diminished the accomplishment, but as I said, I don't agree. I don't know if he ever worked there, but the operations manager of Front Sight was a range master at Gunsite. The "Combat Master" test is something dreamed up by Chuck Taylor. And, the tests are given based on his criteria by people he certifies (or whatever) to give the test. It is a standardized course of fire and is quite challenging (I took the pistol part of the test in a certified class FWIW). The four weapon combat master is quite an achievement: do an internet search and see what it is all about. One of the biggest challenges of the four weapon part of it is that you have to take all four tests consecutively and if you fail any one of them you have to start all over again. The test really doesn't have anything to do with combat, it is just a course of fire with extreamly tight time constraints. You can find the course of fire on several different websites. You basically just practice this course of fire over and over until you can do it with a score and time that meet his requirements. And you have to do this on demand during a test given by someone who Taylor certifes to give the test. I took a class that spend several days shooting this course of fire over and over. Fine tuning each portion of it and trying to get your time and accuracy to within the limits. At the end, you take the whole test. No one at the class I took passed it. Some of the people had taken the class a dozen times or more. There are people who have taken it far more than a dozen times and have never passed it. I am NOT saying that this test has anything to do with defensive pistol shooting, combat, or anything else. But it is a challenge and fun way to spend a weekend. FWIW: there are only like 20 people who ever passed just the pistol part of the test on a legitimate test. I am not saying that a lot more than that couldn't pass it, they probably never tried, but among those who have tried during one of his certified tests, there are only like 20 people who have ever passed the pistol test. Obviously far fewer have passed the four weapon "combat master" since you have to pass the pistol test first to even qualify to take the four weapon test and then pass the pistol test again along with the other three weapons (shotgun, SMG, and rifle). FWIW: I have taken 17 classes at Front Sight as well as four classes at Gunsite (223, 556, 260, 250). I have also taken several of those Front Sight classes with one of the guys who filed that class action lawsuit. As far as the guy who said, don't believe everything you read, keep one thing in mind as you read this thread: There are people who have been to Front Sight and there are people who will speak with the voice of authoirty who have never been there and don't know shit about it. The latter will be the majority of replies you get to this thread. Chuck Taylor? The Converse shoe guy? ETA: Charles Taylor? The leader of ARFCOM's favorite Liberian miltia? |
| I've trained there twice and as far as their tactics and techniques I have nothing bad to say. I know nothing of the real "drama" in the background but I do find it odd that they do not allow their instructors to train anywhere else in the surrounding states. What they teach is proprietary to Front Site! |
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Don't believe everything you read in the newspaper, or on the internet.
I don't but when I have guys that have been in "the business" for 20-30 years tell me that "those people are dangerous, stay the fuck away from them" - exact words from a guy that was one of Col. Cooper's good friends and trainers....That tells me what I want to know, especially combined with all the other interesting tidbits you can find if you only look. Yup, the Harbor Freight of firearms training. |
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Competitor? Well, If you are talking about the number of students that the two instructors have had who have shot themselves during one of their classes then no, Front Site is WAAAAY ahead.
One of the guys has been in the biz since Gunsite's beginning and has NEVER had a student pop themselves. The other has been around maybe 15 years and never had anyone ventilate themselves on his range. So no, they aren't really Front Site's competition. There is something basically wrong with a school that has had as many admitted shootings as Front Site has. The real numbers may be even higher, I've heard as many as 17 depending on who you talk to. They either are teaching something that is getting people shot or they are not screening their students properly and yes, I've been in classes where people were asked to leave and refunded their course fees. It takes a real instructor with some backbone ('cause they will run to the 'net and start squealing) to do it but I've seen it twice and the class was much better and safer for it. Some things are more important than the almighty dollar...... Competitor? Not exactly. I host both of these trainers every year. Both of them KNOW that I am going to host their classes I have for 7 years with one of the guys and 4 with the other. Both of them tell you that knowledge is not the province of any one "guru" and that you should study under as many instructors as you can. They know and understand that I regularly train at other schools and encourage it. Both of them have given numerous free slots in my courses to local law enforcement officers who could otherwise not attend. They are professionals.....it ain't about the money. If you want to talk about "scumbag lawyers and frivolous suits" it seems that at least one poster here actually worked for Front Site and states quite clearly that THEY apparently are not above using the system to whatever advantage they can. They claim no moral high ground on the issue in any case. |
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I don't have a dog in this fight. I am not a Front Sight member and won't ever be simply because I don't think Mr. Piazza's business model is sustainable and don't like his advertising tactics. However, I do admire what he says he is trying to accomplish. I have gone to several pistol and rifle training classes at several different facilities; that includes Gunsite and Front Sight, among others. Each one teaches something different from the other and I can train the way that suits me best. I do find the vitriol somewhat amusing, however. Some people seem to be so dedicated to one particular facility or trainer that all others are "horrible" or "doing it wrong". Laughable, at best. For better or worse, with regards to volume and number of people trained, I'd say that Front Sight is probably the Wal-Mart of firearms training, and other schools attacking them is akin to Albertson's saying that "Wal-Mart sucks" or Smith's saying that "Wal-Mart is doing it wrong." Are you saying that there has never been a shooting accident at Gunsite, or merely that these two instructors you mentioned have never had an incident? If the latter, I would bet that you could get a dozen or more current Front Sight instructors who could say the same. I would venture to say that the number of students that Front Sight has trained in the last 10 years is far, far higher than the number that Gunsite or Suarez Int'l have trained. Wouldn't you need to compare ratios to be accurate in your assertation about ND's here? What you're saying is kinda like saying that there have been many more GLOCK malfunctions than Bren-Ten malfunctions. As a pure number, sure - of course, but how many more GLOCKs are out there than Bren-Ten's? Front Sight seems to advertise more toward the casual or first-time gunowner who is seeking training for the first time, and many people who have never fired a gun before. I would expect that to result in more accidents by its very nature. Gunsite, et all are almost completely unknown outside of communities like AR15.com, so I would postulate that they get significantly less "newbies" going to them since they advertise far less than Front Sight and seem to cater to a bit different crowd. Quoted: Competitor? Well, If you are talking about the number of students that the two instructors have had who have shot themselves during one of their classes then no, Front Site is WAAAAY ahead. One of the guys has been in the biz since Gunsite's beginning and has NEVER had a student pop themselves. The other has been around maybe 15 years and never had anyone ventilate themselves on his range. So no, they aren't really Front Site's competition. There is something basically wrong with a school that has had as many admitted shootings as Front Site has. The real numbers may be even higher, I've heard as many as 17 depending on who you talk to. They either are teaching something that is getting people shot or they are not screening their students properly and yes, I've been in classes where people were asked to leave and refunded their course fees. It takes a real instructor with some backbone ('cause they will run to the 'net and start squealing) to do it but I've seen it twice and the class was much better and safer for it. Some things are more important than the almighty dollar...... Competitor? Not exactly. I host both of these trainers every year. Both of them KNOW that I am going to host their classes I have for 7 years with one of the guys and 4 with the other. Both of them tell you that knowledge is not the province of any one "guru" and that you should study under as many instructors as you can. They know and understand that I regularly train at other schools and encourage it. Both of them have given numerous free slots in my courses to local law enforcement officers who could otherwise not attend. They are professionals.....it ain't about the money. If you want to talk about "scumbag lawyers and frivolous suits" it seems that at least one poster here actually worked for Front Site and states quite clearly that THEY apparently are not above using the system to whatever advantage they can. They claim no moral high ground on the issue in any case. |
JOKE!
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To clarify I will say that the instructors I'm talking about, who own their own "schools" have never had a student shot on their ranges. Percentages don't interest me. I don't care how many Front Site has trained to the number that have shot themselves. The numbers are too high any way you want to look at it. I'll say it again, if you have a student that is doing something dangerous they need to be taken off the line.
Either they are not screening students effectively or they are not watching them while they are on the line. I am willing to bet that the folks who shot themselves were not doing what got them shot only the first time when they got shot. They probably had gotten into a bad habit and it finally bit them in the ass...that's something that lies directly at the feet of their instructor(s). I have trained with a wide variety of instructors and I have nothing but good to say about them- Farnham, Awerbuck, Suarez, Gunsite, Thunder Ranch, McKee, Rifles Only, BadLands, Rogers, Stock etc.....I can go on, I am not a "disciple" of any particular guru or methodology. I only know what two different guys whom I consider knowledgeable have told me about Front Site and of course what I have read about their shady business practices. That's enough for me. |
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So you're basing your personal conclusions and blanket assumptions on second-hand information? If you've spent the time and money to train at all these schools and have such a strong [second-hand-given] opinion on Front Sight, might I suggest that you at least take a 2 or 4 day class there so that you can have first-hand info about how poor the classes/training/instruction/safety is? Quoted: To clarify I will say that the instructors I'm talking about, who own their own "schools" have never had a student shot on their ranges. Percentages don't interest me. I don't care how many Front Site has trained to the number that have shot themselves. The numbers are too high any way you want to look at it. I'll say it again, if you have a student that is doing something dangerous they need to be taken off the line. Either they are not screening students effectively or they are not watching them while they are on the line. I am willing to bet that the folks who shot themselves were not doing what got them shot only the first time when they got shot. They probably had gotten into a bad habit and it finally bit them in the ass...that's something that lies directly at the feet of their instructor(s). I have trained with a wide variety of instructors and I have nothing but good to say about them- Farnham, Awerbuck, Suarez, Gunsite, Thunder Ranch, McKee, Rifles Only, BadLands, Rogers, Stock etc.....I can go on, I am not a "disciple" of any particular guru or methodology. I only know what two different guys whom I consider knowledgeable have told me about Front Site and of course what I have read about their shady business practices. That's enough for me. |
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I'm at the stage in life where I don't need to touch the stove to believe someone- who is believable because of who they have proven to be, over many years, that it's hot. Yep, heard that!! The word that I got, from a similar source, was that there were many fine instructors at Front sight but the owner was a shyster. From my own experience I received his list of secret untaught techniques that would come via email every couple to 3 days, non of the techniques were wrong however none were new, let alone secret. |
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To clarify I will say that the instructors I'm talking about, who own their own "schools" have never had a student shot on their ranges. Percentages don't interest me. I don't care how many Front Site has trained to the number that have shot themselves. The numbers are too high any way you want to look at it. I'll say it again, if you have a student that is doing something dangerous they need to be taken off the line. Either they are not screening students effectively or they are not watching them while they are on the line. I am willing to bet that the folks who shot themselves were not doing what got them shot only the first time when they got shot. They probably had gotten into a bad habit and it finally bit them in the ass...that's something that lies directly at the feet of their instructor(s). I have trained with a wide variety of instructors and I have nothing but good to say about them- Farnham, Awerbuck, Suarez, Gunsite, Thunder Ranch, McKee, Rifles Only, BadLands, Rogers, Stock etc.....I can go on, I am not a "disciple" of any particular guru or methodology. I only know what two different guys whom I consider knowledgeable have told me about Front Site and of course what I have read about their shady business practices. That's enough for me. Just out of curiosity, where are these numbers coming from? Where did these people find statistics on accidental discharges and shootings at Front Sight, or is this all hearsay and speculation? When I attended the four day course in March, the one thing that was drilled into our heads day after day was safety. We went through the proper procedures for loading, unloading, chamber checks, and mag checks every day, and put that practice to the test on the range. For as many times as I got yelled at for putting my finger on the front of the trigger guard, I can tell you their instructors are very observant individuals. One of my fellow students was really struggling with the course, including important things like trigger and muzzle discipline. If the instructors kept a watchful eye on the rest of us, they watched him like a hawk. A supervisor was behind him every time he went to the line to coach im, and keep him shooting safely. In the end, he was put at one end of the range and away from the rest of us to not only keep the rest of us as safe as possible, but to make sure he got as much from the class as possible. And for the record, the man in question shot in the lane next to me, and I never felt I was at risk once. After reading the article in the Pahrump Times, and seeing Rawles' comments on Survivalblog, it sounds like Mr. Piazza has been up to some financial shenanigans. That doesn't, however, detract from the quality of the trainings offered. I'd go back and take it again in a heartbeat. |
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Just out of curiosity, where are these numbers coming from? Where did these people find statistics on accidental discharges and shootings at Front Sight, or is this all hearsay and speculation?
Here for starters-http://www.frontsight.com/SafetyReports.asp?Action=ShowSingle&ID=5 They will cop to 7 shootings- right off their website. The guys I spoke to indicated the actual number was higher. |
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Don't believe everything you read in the newspaper, or on the internet.
I don't but when I have guys that have been in "the business" for 20-30 years tell me that "those people are dangerous, stay the fuck away from them" - exact words from a guy that was one of Col. Cooper's good friends and trainers....That tells me what I want to know, especially combined with all the other interesting tidbits you can find if you only look. Yup, the Harbor Freight of firearms training. Hey, I like Harbor Freight. You can buy Chinese made tools that will grenade in your face real cheap. 
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