Posted: 9/6/2011 10:03:10 AM EDT
If the legal requirements are the same to own an AR as an MG (no felonies, DV convictions, etc.), why can we walk in to a gun shop and be out 10 minutes later with our purchase, but to SBR a rifle takes months and months worth of background checks? Am I missing something ?
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Because there's only a few NFA examiners for the whole country.
http://www.nfatca.org/pubs/FIEM_PDFs/ATF_FESD_Albro.pdf |
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Because there's only a few NFA examiners for the whole country. http://i52.tinypic.com/jav334.jpg http://www.nfatca.org/pubs/FIEM_PDFs/ATF_FESD_Albro.pdf Still doesn't explain why some people are waiting 5, 6, maybe 7 months for paperwork. |
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Because there's only a few NFA examiners for the whole country. http://i52.tinypic.com/jav334.jpg http://www.nfatca.org/pubs/FIEM_PDFs/ATF_FESD_Albro.pdf Still doesn't explain why some people are waiting 5, 6, maybe 7 months for paperwork. It sure does. |
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If the legal requirements are the same to own an AR as an MG (no felonies, DV convictions, etc.), why can we walk in to a gun shop and be out 10 minutes later with our purchase, but to SBR a rifle takes months and months worth of background checks? Am I missing something ?they aren't the same... they haven't been the same since the passing of the NFA in 1934... |
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SBRing a rifle doesn't take months and months of background checks. It takes months and months of waiting while a few examiners process all of the Form 1s for the entire country. Do they use different databases than those used by the NICS? I've been approved by the NICS in a little over a minute before. Is the background check more in depth? What is it that causes the 50 bajillion percent increase in time to complete the check over a regular rifle with a shoulder thing that goes up? |
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Because there's only a few NFA examiners for the whole country. http://i52.tinypic.com/jav334.jpg http://www.nfatca.org/pubs/FIEM_PDFs/ATF_FESD_Albro.pdf Still doesn't explain why some people are waiting 5, 6, maybe 7 months for paperwork. Because one human being can only do so much paper work a day. How fast do you want a dozen people to process 800,000 applications? |
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If the legal requirements are the same to own an AR as an MG (no felonies, DV convictions, etc.), why can we walk in to a gun shop and be out 10 minutes later with our purchase, but to SBR a rifle takes months and months worth of background checks? Am I missing something ?they aren't the same... they haven't been the same since the passing of the NFA in 1934... What are the differences? Everything I've seen makes it seem that as long as you're not DQ'd from firearm ownership, you're good to for NFA as well. I'm not an expert though, and that's why I ask. |
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SBRing a rifle doesn't take months and months of background checks. It takes months and months of waiting while a few examiners process all of the Form 1s for the entire country. Do they use different databases than those used by the NICS? I've been approved by the NICS in a little over a minute before. Is the background check more in depth? What is it that causes the 50 bajillion percent increase in time to complete the check over a regular rifle with a shoulder thing that goes up? Do you give fingerprints to the NICS? 
Obviously it some time for them to send (or scan) the fingerprints to FBI. I don't know if they contact the CLEO to verify that they signed the Form or not, but that could also take some times. |
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Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Because there's only a few NFA examiners for the whole country. http://i52.tinypic.com/jav334.jpg http://www.nfatca.org/pubs/FIEM_PDFs/ATF_FESD_Albro.pdf Still doesn't explain why some people are waiting 5, 6, maybe 7 months for paperwork. Because one human being can only do so much paper work a day. How fast do you want a dozen people to process 800,000 applications? We've modernized the NICS system but we never updated the NFA system. The NFA system should just use NICS. |
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Because there's only a few NFA examiners for the whole country. http://i52.tinypic.com/jav334.jpg http://www.nfatca.org/pubs/FIEM_PDFs/ATF_FESD_Albro.pdf Still doesn't explain why some people are waiting 5, 6, maybe 7 months for paperwork. It does. The queue for your form to get to the front of the line is that long. NFA forms are processed in about 20 minutes, but because of the massive number of applications and the small number of examiners, it takes a long time to get through the line. Quoted:
What are the differences? Everything I've seen makes it seem that as long as you're not DQ'd from firearm ownership, you're good to for NFA as well. I'm not an expert though, and that's why I ask. The qualifications for ownership are the same, but the classification of NFA firearms is different, and requires different paperwork. The long wait is not related to the ownership qualifications. It's not a good system, but it is what it is. |
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Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: SBRing a rifle doesn't take months and months of background checks. It takes months and months of waiting while a few examiners process all of the Form 1s for the entire country. Do they use different databases than those used by the NICS? I've been approved by the NICS in a little over a minute before. Is the background check more in depth? What is it that causes the 50 bajillion percent increase in time to complete the check over a regular rifle with a shoulder thing that goes up? Do you give fingerprints to the NICS? Obviously it some time for them to send (or scan) the fingerprints to FBI. I don't know if they contact the CLEO to verify that they signed the Form or not, but that could also take some times. Trust and corporate transfers seem to take the same amount of time. |
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SBRing a rifle doesn't take months and months of background checks. It takes months and months of waiting while a few examiners process all of the Form 1s for the entire country. Do they use different databases than those used by the NICS? I've been approved by the NICS in a little over a minute before. Is the background check more in depth? What is it that causes the 50 bajillion percent increase in time to complete the check over a regular rifle with a shoulder thing that goes up? Do you give fingerprints to the NICS?
Obviously it some time for them to send (or scan) the fingerprints to FBI. I don't know if they contact the CLEO to verify that they signed the Form or not, but that could also take some times. Trust and corporate transfers seem to take the same amount of time. Fuck. You're right. 
ETA: What irritates me is that ALL of these systems aren't integrated with one another. If I already have a NFA tax stamp, a FFL (Type 03) and a CCW - why the hell do I need to jump through all of these hoops for my NEXT gun? I really, REALLY want the NFA tax stamps to be associated with the person (or trust/corp.), not the firearm/can. That way, once you get the stamp, it is your "permit" to own as many of that type of firearm as you want. |
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SBRing a rifle doesn't take months and months of background checks. It takes months and months of waiting while a few examiners process all of the Form 1s for the entire country. Do they use different databases than those used by the NICS? I've been approved by the NICS in a little over a minute before. Is the background check more in depth? What is it that causes the 50 bajillion percent increase in time to complete the check over a regular rifle with a shoulder thing that goes up? The NFA process is NOT simply a background check. |
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SBRing a rifle doesn't take months and months of background checks. It takes months and months of waiting while a few examiners process all of the Form 1s for the entire country. Do they use different databases than those used by the NICS? I've been approved by the NICS in a little over a minute before. Is the background check more in depth? What is it that causes the 50 bajillion percent increase in time to complete the check over a regular rifle with a shoulder thing that goes up? The NFA process is NOT simply a background check. That doesn't really tell me a whole lot. Can you explain, please? |
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Let me try to explain more in-depth.
Here's a basic rundown of the process: You fill out your Form 1 to SBR your weapon. If you're doing this as an individual instead of as a trust or corporation or LLC, you also send in fingerprints, CLEO sign off, and passport photos. You put your two copies of your Form 1 (complete with CLEO signature and passport photos), your $200 check, your Certification of Compliance, and your two fingerprint cards in an envelope and mail it to the NFA Branch. They verify that what you're making is legal before cashing your check. That's why you send a F1 to a different address than a F4. If you're trying to F1 an MG your form gets kicked back. Otherwise it gets sent on, check is cashed, and then it finds its way to your examiner's desk. Your form then hits the bottom of a big pile that the examiner works through. If filing as an individual, this should also be where your fingerprint cards get sent off to the FBI for processing - I'm not 100% sure on that, though. Depending on the FBI's fingerprint workload, your fingerprint processing (and that of those above you in the pile) may take quite some time. While all of this is going on you are slowly moving up the pile. Trusts are generally looked at by ATF legal - this takes time for forms above yours as well. But wait! Someone above you had an error on their application. This slows everyone down. They have to rectify this error which could take days or weeks. The examiner likely moves on to a different pile as your pile is now held up. I could have left some details out but that's generally the process. 800,000 forms, 10 or 11 examiners. Not a lot of people to do a lot of work. |
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ETA: What irritates me is that ALL of these systems aren't integrated with one another. If I already have a NFA tax stamp, a FFL (Type 03) and a CCW - why the hell do I need to jump through all of these hoops for my NEXT gun? I really, REALLY want the NFA tax stamps to be associated with the person (or trust/corp.), not the firearm/can. That way, once you get the stamp, it is your "permit" to own as many of that type of firearm as you want. Tax stamps are not meant to be permission slips to purchase an NFA item. You do not need a license or permission to purchase an NFA item. Tax stamps are simply a confirmation that the federal tax was paid when the item was transferred. Therefore, they will always be tied to a specific item, as the tax needs to be paid for each transfer. To go to a permit system would require the NFA laws to be repealed completely by congress and a new system devised and voted on. If this were to happen, there's a good chance the new system would be worse than the current laws. |
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Let me try to explain more in-depth. Here's a basic rundown of the process: You fill out your Form 1 to SBR your weapon. If you're doing this as an individual instead of as a trust or corporation or LLC, you also send in fingerprints, CLEO sign off, and passport photos. You put your two copies of your Form 1 (complete with CLEO signature and passport photos), your $200 check, your Certification of Compliance, and your two fingerprint cards in an envelope and mail it to the NFA Branch. They verify that what you're making is legal before cashing your check. That's why you send a F1 to a different address than a F4. If you're trying to F1 an MG your form gets kicked back. Otherwise it gets sent on, check is cashed, and then it finds its way to your examiner's desk. Your form then hits the bottom of a big pile that the examiner works through. If filing as an individual, this should also be where your fingerprint cards get sent off to the FBI for processing - I'm not 100% sure on that, though. Depending on the FBI's fingerprint workload, your fingerprint processing (and that of those above you in the pile) may take quite some time. While all of this is going on you are slowly moving up the pile. Trusts are generally looked at by ATF legal - this takes time for forms above yours as well. But wait! Someone above you had an error on their application. This slows everyone down. They have to rectify this error which could take days or weeks. The examiner likely moves on to a different pile as your pile is now held up. I could have left some details out but that's generally the process. 800,000 forms, 10 or 11 examiners. Not a lot of people to do a lot of work. So...basically, it's just a senseless pain in the ass designed to prevent people from owning SBRs, MGs, suppressors, and AOWs? Got it. |
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SBRing a rifle doesn't take months and months of background checks. It takes months and months of waiting while a few examiners process all of the Form 1s for the entire country. Do they use different databases than those used by the NICS? I've been approved by the NICS in a little over a minute before. Is the background check more in depth? What is it that causes the 50 bajillion percent increase in time to complete the check over a regular rifle with a shoulder thing that goes up? The NFA process is NOT simply a background check. That doesn't really tell me a whole lot. Can you explain, please? It requires that paperwork be mailed in, and that paperwork has to be filled out in a very specific(and sometimes slightly confusing) way. Each individual application has to be individually reviewed by an examiner to ensure that they are correct. A background check is completed at the same time if the form is filed by an individual or, if it is a trust/corporation, the documentation is examined to ensure it is correct. If everything checks out, a tax stamp is issued. Every step in the process takes time, and applications are handled in the order that they are recieved by a staff of less than 20 people who aren't in any big hurry to get it done. |
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Let me try to explain more in-depth. Here's a basic rundown of the process: You fill out your Form 1 to SBR your weapon. If you're doing this as an individual instead of as a trust or corporation or LLC, you also send in fingerprints, CLEO sign off, and passport photos. You put your two copies of your Form 1 (complete with CLEO signature and passport photos), your $200 check, your Certification of Compliance, and your two fingerprint cards in an envelope and mail it to the NFA Branch. They verify that what you're making is legal before cashing your check. That's why you send a F1 to a different address than a F4. If you're trying to F1 an MG your form gets kicked back. Otherwise it gets sent on, check is cashed, and then it finds its way to your examiner's desk. Your form then hits the bottom of a big pile that the examiner works through. If filing as an individual, this should also be where your fingerprint cards get sent off to the FBI for processing - I'm not 100% sure on that, though. Depending on the FBI's fingerprint workload, your fingerprint processing (and that of those above you in the pile) may take quite some time. While all of this is going on you are slowly moving up the pile. Trusts are generally looked at by ATF legal - this takes time for forms above yours as well. But wait! Someone above you had an error on their application. This slows everyone down. They have to rectify this error which could take days or weeks. The examiner likely moves on to a different pile as your pile is now held up. I could have left some details out but that's generally the process. 800,000 forms, 10 or 11 examiners. Not a lot of people to do a lot of work. So...basically, it's just a senseless pain in the ass designed to prevent people from owning SBRs, MGs, suppressors, and AOWs? Got it. Yep, that sounds about right. |
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ETA: What irritates me is that ALL of these systems aren't integrated with one another. If I already have a NFA tax stamp, a FFL (Type 03) and a CCW - why the hell do I need to jump through all of these hoops for my NEXT gun? I really, REALLY want the NFA tax stamps to be associated with the person (or trust/corp.), not the firearm/can. That way, once you get the stamp, it is your "permit" to own as many of that type of firearm as you want. Tax stamps are not meant to be permission slips to purchase an NFA item. You do not need a license or permission to purchase an NFA item. Tax stamps are simply a confirmation that the federal tax was paid when the item was transferred. Therefore, they will always be tied to a specific item, as the tax needs to be paid for each transfer. To go to a permit system would require the NFA laws to be repealed completely by congress and a new system devised and voted on. If this were to happen, there's a good chance the new system would be worse than the current laws. I think that you should be able to by a roll or book or whatever of NFA stamps and then apply it to whatever items you want to get. You know, like postal stamps. If I pass the background check why cant I get approval for 4 or 5 or 20 things at once as long as I pay the tax? |
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The NFA was designed to prevent ownership of a certain class of 'firearms'.
In 1934 they understood that Constitutionally they could not ban a type of firearm (oh, how times have changed) so they instituted a $200 tax. At the time, the tax was often two or three times the cost of the actual firearm. It is amazing that the tax was never increased. |
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SBRing a rifle doesn't take months and months of background checks. It takes months and months of waiting while a few examiners process all of the Form 1s for the entire country. Yep, iirc actual review time is something like 10 minutes. Volume of work vs manpower. |
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Quoted: Quoted: ... It is amazing that the tax was never increased. Yeah, no kidding. If the $200 tax from 1934 was adjusted for inflation it would be around $3300  - I'm quite pleased the assholes who passed the 1934 law didn't think of that.There is no way they would attempt to raise the prices. If they did, there would be a full fledged campaign to repeal/invalidate the NFA which they don't want. |
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The NFA was originally designed as a progressive plan to eliminate all but hunting rifles/shotguns. Apart from any Constitutional issues, it seems weird now because: - Handguns were withdrawn from the NFA before it passed, they were originally a part of it. This makes SBS & SBR regs seems pointless, but they remained anyhoo... - Semi auto rifles did exist, but were not common, all but a few exotics were not that powerful, nor were they 'scary'. Ergo, they were not top of mind as a class. If they were, you can be sure they'd have been a part of it. |
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Quoted: The NFA was designed to prevent ownership of a certain class of 'firearms'. In 1934 they understood that Constitutionally they could not ban a type of firearm (oh, how times have changed) so they instituted a $200 tax. At the time, the tax was often two or three times the cost of the actual firearm. It is amazing that the tax was never increased. That was before they discovered they could just abuse the commerce clause and pass whatever laws they want... |
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But they cash your check as soon as they get it............. at a different address ... in an office set up solely to open your package, take the check out, then forward the rest of it on to the abyss in West Virginia. It's like the kid who rips open all his birthday cards without reading them or even seeing who they're from, just to pull the money out. He'll get around to looking at them and sending out "thank you" notes in a few weeks. |
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If only there was a forum here that addressed such questions... http://www.ar15.com/forums/f_6/17_General_Class_3.html |
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If only there was a forum here that addressed such questions... http://www.ar15.com/forums/f_6/17_General_Class_3.html Get more answers here. More folks in GD. |
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The NFA was designed to prevent ownership of a certain class of 'firearms'. In 1934 they understood that Constitutionally they could not ban a type of firearm (oh, how times have changed) so they instituted a $200 tax. At the time, the tax was often two or three times the cost of the actual firearm. It is amazing that the tax was never increased. Not even close, try orders of magnitude more expensive. The average annual houshold income in 1934 was around $1,500. The tax was built to be so prohibitively expensive as to be a de facto ban since congress knew they didn't have the Constitutional authority to ban ownership of anything. Interestingly, they did the same thing with marijuana sales. They created a law stating you couldn't posess or sell mj without a federal stamp and then simply never issued any. |
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Quoted: Quoted: ... It is amazing that the tax was never increased. Yeah, no kidding. If the $200 tax from 1934 was adjusted for inflation it would be around $3300 - I'm quite pleased the assholes who passed the 1934 law didn't think of that.I would be fine with the $3300 tax IF the registry was reopened. You would see new $4300 full auto toys! It obviously be better if the registry was opened and the tax found unconstitutional. |
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If only there was a forum here that addressed such questions... http://www.ar15.com/forums/f_6/17_General_Class_3.html Get more answers here. More folks in GD. You'll get *better* answers in the NFA forums. That's his point. GD always has amusing takes on NFA, I'll give it that. |
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... It is amazing that the tax was never increased. Yeah, no kidding. If the $200 tax from 1934 was adjusted for inflation it would be around $3300 - I'm quite pleased the assholes who passed the 1934 law didn't think of that.I would be fine with the $3300 tax IF the registry was reopened. You would see new $4300 full auto toys! It obviously be better if the registry was opened and the tax found unconstitutional. As long as we're just wishing, how about a repeal of the NFA altogether. The two things (full repeal or reopening the registry even with an adjusted tax price) have about the same chance of happening. Face it, we're never going to hear a politician say "what this country needs, right now, more than anything else, is more civilian ownership of machine guns" much less a majority of them saying it in both the House and the Senate. |
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Because there's only a few NFA examiners for the whole country. http://i52.tinypic.com/jav334.jpg http://www.nfatca.org/pubs/FIEM_PDFs/ATF_FESD_Albro.pdf Still doesn't explain why some people are waiting 5, 6, maybe 7 months for paperwork. You do realize that NFA is processing about 30,000 NFA transactions a month right? That includes form 1, 2, 3, 4 and all the others. But still, that's a shit load of work. |
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Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: ... It is amazing that the tax was never increased. Yeah, no kidding. If the $200 tax from 1934 was adjusted for inflation it would be around $3300 - I'm quite pleased the assholes who passed the 1934 law didn't think of that.I would be fine with the $3300 tax IF the registry was reopened. You would see new $4300 full auto toys! It obviously be better if the registry was opened and the tax found unconstitutional. Yeah, and $5,000 silencers. Fuck that. |
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What I never understood is how you could place a "tax" on something that was a fundamental right? I mean, to me, that's like saying you can have all the bibles you want,
however you have to pay the gov't $200 in taxes before you can own one, or print one for yourself. |
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SBRing a rifle doesn't take months and months of background checks. It takes months and months of waiting while a few examiners process all of the Form 1s for the entire country. Do they use different databases than those used by the NICS? I've been approved by the NICS in a little over a minute before. Is the background check more in depth? What is it that causes the 50 bajillion percent increase in time to complete the check over a regular rifle with a shoulder thing that goes up? Do you give fingerprints to the NICS?
Obviously it some time for them to send (or scan) the fingerprints to FBI. I don't know if they contact the CLEO to verify that they signed the Form or not, but that could also take some times. none of this is required for corporate ownership. when my suppressor was transferred to my LLC I also had to fill out a 4473 |
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... It is amazing that the tax was never increased. Yeah, no kidding. If the $200 tax from 1934 was adjusted for inflation it would be around $3300 - I'm quite pleased the assholes who passed the 1934 law didn't think of that.I would be fine with the $3300 tax IF the registry was reopened. You would see new $4300 full auto toys! It obviously be better if the registry was opened and the tax found unconstitutional. As long as we're just wishing, how about a repeal of the NFA altogether. The two things (full repeal or reopening the registry even with an adjusted tax price) have about the same chance of happening. Face it, we're never going to hear a politician say "what this country needs, right now, more than anything else, is more civilian ownership of machine guns" much less a majority of them saying it in both the House and the Senate. Forget Congress. They've proven themselves corrupt and useless. You want MG's? Here's how you do it. Based on the McDonald v. Chicago case, the 2nd Amendment is now Incorporated under the 14th as a Fundamental/Civil Right. Now, on more than one occasion, SCOTUS has found that you may not apply a tax to the exercise of an Incorporated Civil Right. (See poll taxes). Based on this, the NFA, being as said earlier in the thread, is wholly a tax law. It is Unconstitutional. Now, if you challenge the NFA on the tax issue, here's what SCOTUS must take into account. If they find in your favor, the mechanism for the Hughes Amendment is gone. The MG ban is defunct and dies with the NFA. If they side with the Government, they trump prior SCOTUS decisions on taxing of Rights. The ink on the decision wouldn't even be dry before a challenge based on such a decision would come forth over reinstating poll taxes. The Dems do NOT want this. The Republicans do NOT want this. I suspect that when they realize that such a challenge is in the works and what the factors of the case would end up being, they might take the lesser of evils and repeal the Hughes Amendment or have who ever is POTUS at the time issue an Executive Order mandating Government authorization to collect the tax and approve new manufacture of MG's for public consumption. That way, they lessen the chance of someone actually willing ot challenge the NFA on the tax, they avoid resurrecting the poll tax zombie, and they maintain the NFA database. But, these are politicians we're talking about. They aren't exactly the sharpest knives in the scrap pile by any stretch. I suspect a challenge to the NFA will go all the way to SCOTUS. They'll try to 'settle' before SCOTUS hears it but if it's taken to that point, it's going to be too late for the politico's. I've actually discussed this scenario with several elected officials and they are scared shitless of someone actually doing it. There are other ramifications as well that they wouldn't like but that is for another time and discussion. |
| Plus, aren't NICS records supposed to be temporary? Just a check by the government, the dealer keeps the paperwork. When the dealer dies or goes out of business the dealer's log book is turned in but the records are... destroyed? NFA records on the other hand are maintained somewhere by the government. 30,000 new packages to file away every month. |
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Quoted: The problem is that it would never make it to SCOTUS it would be found in your favor early on. I believe there was a case out of IL of all places that only made it to the district court system and he won. You can not take a case you won to the SCOTUS and the state dropped it I believe because it was not willing to take the risk of the SCOTUS overturning the law.Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: ... It is amazing that the tax was never increased. Yeah, no kidding. If the $200 tax from 1934 was adjusted for inflation it would be around $3300 - I'm quite pleased the assholes who passed the 1934 law didn't think of that.I would be fine with the $3300 tax IF the registry was reopened. You would see new $4300 full auto toys! It obviously be better if the registry was opened and the tax found unconstitutional. As long as we're just wishing, how about a repeal of the NFA altogether. The two things (full repeal or reopening the registry even with an adjusted tax price) have about the same chance of happening. Face it, we're never going to hear a politician say "what this country needs, right now, more than anything else, is more civilian ownership of machine guns" much less a majority of them saying it in both the House and the Senate. Forget Congress. They've proven themselves corrupt and useless. You want MG's? Here's how you do it. Based on the McDonald v. Chicago case, the 2nd Amendment is now Incorporated under the 14th as a Fundamental/Civil Right. Now, on more than one occasion, SCOTUS has found that you may not apply a tax to the exercise of an Incorporated Civil Right. (See poll taxes). Based on this, the NFA, being as said earlier in the thread, is wholly a tax law. It is Unconstitutional. Now, if you challenge the NFA on the tax issue, here's what SCOTUS must take into account. If they find in your favor, the mechanism for the Hughes Amendment is gone. The MG ban is defunct and dies with the NFA. If they side with the Government, they trump prior SCOTUS decisions on taxing of Rights. The ink on the decision wouldn't even be dry before a challenge based on such a decision would come forth over reinstating poll taxes. The Dems do NOT want this. The Republicans do NOT want this. I suspect that when they realize that such a challenge is in the works and what the factors of the case would end up being, they might take the lesser of evils and repeal the Hughes Amendment or have who ever is POTUS at the time issue an Executive Order mandating Government authorization to collect the tax and approve new manufacture of MG's for public consumption. That way, they lessen the chance of someone actually willing ot challenge the NFA on the tax, they avoid resurrecting the poll tax zombie, and they maintain the NFA database. But, these are politicians we're talking about. They aren't exactly the sharpest knives in the scrap pile by any stretch. I suspect a challenge to the NFA will go all the way to SCOTUS. They'll try to 'settle' before SCOTUS hears it but if it's taken to that point, it's going to be too late for the politico's. I've actually discussed this scenario with several elected officials and they are scared shitless of someone actually doing it. There are other ramifications as well that they wouldn't like but that is for another time and discussion. |