Posted: 1/9/2005 8:13:44 AM EDT
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First off I am in AZ. It is legal to have a loaded pistol in my car. If I am driving down the road, speeding. Lets say I am going 10 miles over the speed limit. I get pulled over. I tell the officer that I have my pistol. He takes it from me while writing my ticket, not uncommon here. Can he run the serial numbers on my pistol? If he can, what is the probable cause for this. I have never owned a stolen gun, and have nothing to worry about, but still dont like the idea of it. Is it common practice to run numbers on guns you come accross in the above scenario? Thanks Milhouse |
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Yes he can run the serial number on the gun. You have given him justification (in any court) to take possession of the firearm during the stop. He isn't manipulating (taking apart) the firearm to look at the serial number, and would be completely within his rights to run the serial number on the gun. Like it or not, that's the correct answer. |
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'Fraid KravMaga's right. Here in OH, we just got CCW this summer. In a class given by the Pros Office for local PDs about legalities and such, we were told that it's up to the individual Officer whether or not he takes a gun off a CCW holder during a stop. Also, according to the Pros, if we take a weapon, it's again up to us whether or not we run the ser# but there's nothing illegal about running it. In fact, it was suggested that we do run it to "check it out", since "you never know". Then again, most of the elected and Govt officials were DEATHLY against CCW so that might be affecting their thinking and reasoning. Bottom line, however, is that you should count on it happening. Bub |
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Myself, and most LEO's I work with, will most likely NOT touch your weapon and will direct you to NOT touch your weapon. For a traffic stop where there is no warrants, where your paperwork is in order, where you show your CCW, where there are no other indicators of criminal activity...it is not worth the risk to anyone to have you pull your weapon out. We MAY ask you to step out and away from the car to put time/space between you and the weapon IF it is not on your person. If it is on your person, you will most likely be instructed to keep your hands VERY visable (up on top of the steering wheel, on the door/window...something. Anything other than polite obedience will earn some scrutiny. I have not come across a CCW holder yet that did not act responsibly. It is almost a relief when someone hands their CCW permit to you with their license because it increases the likelihood of lawful compliance. |
I still dont think it is right. Also what is the justification for running the numbers. I mean if a LEO is called to someones house for say disturbing the peace, they dont run the numbers on the stove to see if it is stolen.
Nobody ever said it was right, my man. In my Dept, the trouble is quite a few anti-gun Officers, Chief and Sgt. included. Myself, as long as a person was complying and not giving me any trouble, I'm leaving their weapon holstered with them. It's not worth the increased chance of an ND to have them remove the weapon, clear it, give it to me, give it back to them, have them load it or not, then reholster, all while the person is, quite possibly, very nervous. Our anti Chief and Sgt., however, have strongly advised us to remove the person's weapon "for our safety" and to run the numbers. As for running the numbers, I'm convinced that the only real reason is to harass CCW holders. After all, what CCW holder in his right mind is knowingly carrying a stolen gun? Myself, if we were allowed to carry off-duty, I don't even think I'd carry a non-papered, person-to-person purchased gun simply to cover my butt and have a legitimate paper trail, just in case. All the non-papered guns stay at home!  Bub |
Burglers don't sell your stolen stove to violent parolees either. Not to be a smartass, but I don't think you know how many stolen guns are floating around. Just ask some board members. I would like to see a gun back in the hands of it's lawful owner rather than their appliances, hence the extra attention. Just my .02. Ocorvo summed it up pretty well. NorCal |
If I have a refrigerator in the back of my truck can he run the numbers on that? And if I cover the serial number in tape (non permanent alteration) can they pull the tape off and look at the serial number? Someone said they can't disassemble the weapon--well, pulling an accessory off  is dissassembling the weapon.Why don't I want cops to see my serial number? Cause they don't need to and its a waste of both of our time.
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Because those are required when one excercises the priviledge to drive on public roads. Remember, just because the law gives you the lattitude to do something, doesn't mean you're doing the right thing. I am all for scumbags with stolen guns getting picked up off the street, but I don't like the idea of cops having special permission to examine weapons without a good reason. |
The pistol has nothing to do with the reason he pulled me over. Why not check the radio, it might be stolen.
Good question. I would bet he cant. Im really just wondering why probable cause doesnt apply. again not trying to be a smart ass. |
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In Missouri, as long as the traffic stop is legal, we can run #'s on anything, as long as we have a reasonable suspicion that the person(s) may be involved in criminal activity. Probable cause is only required when we make a custodial arrest. What is reasonable suspicion? If your transporting a refridgerator at 1:00 in the morning....thats enough. I don't think an Officer out there is going to run numbers on anything unless he is suspicious of something, I know I don't. If I stop you on a traffic stop, and you have two car stereos, and three amplifiers, and some subs lying in the back seat of your car, you can be sure I am going to run the numbers on them. Why? because a reasonable police officer would be suspicious that something criminal is going on. And remember, it is a reasonable police officer, not a reasonable citizen, that justifies reasonable suspicion. A average citizen may not think something is suspicious, but an average police officer may see something totally different. For example I stop you for speeding, 13mph over. Everything is normal until I make contact with you and your visibly shaking and nervous.......I start asking questions like, "Where you headed?", "Where you coming from?" etc. and you start repeating my questions to me, avoiding eye contact etc. I am going to continue to dig until I find something. And as long as I write in my report, that you were visibly shaking, avoiding eye contact, extremely nervous, and evasive with routine non-guilt seeking questions, my bases are covered. Same scenario except you have a fridge in the back of your pick-up. I start asking you questions about the fridge, like who owns it, where are you going, where did you pick it up, how long ago etc., and you don't answer the questions right....then I am going to run the numbers. Chances are it won't come back stolen as of yet because you just stole it 5 minutes ago, but what I will do is get your name, vehicle info, etc. and log it into the computer along with the fridge's serial number, that way if it gets reported stolen tomorrow, then we know where to go to get you and the fridge. |
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The officer can run any serial number he can see without moving it our something else to get to it. That is under the plainview doctrine which is applicable in all states. The officer has a legal right to be there on the traffic stop anything he observes cn be run. So the gun is a deffinate yes he can run that. The refrigerator yes if he can see the serial number,, no if he can not see. The gun with tape moves it to a higher level.That would produce probable cause that there is criminal activity as that is an altered or abliterated serial number. I would probably settle this down at the station in cuffs. Your vehicle being towed and INVENTORIED. In my state ticket are still a courtesy more of less. |
So what if the pistol is in a holster? That would require him to move something else for him to read the serial number. |
 Tape has no permanent effect on the pistol. The serial number remains unaltered and unobliterated. I suspect that if you ever arrest anyone for that, it will fly only if they can't afford a lawyer with any sense. If a pistol is in a case, box or the trunk you are SOL, no? And someone posted that it can be run if there is a suspicion of a crime (other than the original traffic offense, I take it). What part of this allows an officer to run the numbers on a firearm as a matter of routine? |
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Related question...... Seat Belt/ DUI checkpoint. Person has mutiple cased rifles in cargo area of a Ford Explorer. All his stuff is in order, he is told to pull over to the side and get out, and his weapons are emoved from the case and the numbers are run. One came back initiall as stolen, but the hit was on a .25 and this was a G3 clone, but it did happen to a friend down near Charlotte. Is it legit to remove weapons from cases just because you observe the cases? |
think about that... you have it. the law says he can take it while he is contacting you. if he is holding it, he can see the serial number. if he can see the ser. no. right there in his hand, then it is in plain sight. No need for PC. Personally, I don't know too many guys who run a lot of gun serial numbers. But I guess if we started recovering a ton of stolen guns that practice could change. |
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If a firearm belonging to you were to be stolen would you want the cops to run the serial numbers on weapons that they find or not? Would you rather the cop not run the serial and let the guy who has your stolen gun(maybe without him knowing that it's stolen) keep the gun and then you are SOL? Quit bitching about it. If you don't want the serial number run then don't carry it. If you don't have anything to hide then you have nothing to worry about. We don't register your guns....we just check them against a database of stolen weapons and then give it back to you. So quit worrying about it. Personally I don't care about people's serial numbers on their weapons because I doubt that an honest person carrying a weapon would have a stolen firearm and I don't want to risk NDs to look at their firearms. But if I get suspicious then I guarantee that I'll start running numbers on anything that has numbers. And yes, I have recovered stolen property on traffic stops by running serial numbers. And there are a few people who are happy that I ran the serial numbers and recovered their stolen property instead of being lazy and just sending the person down the road. |
The NCIC system will hit on the serial number and serial numbers that are close. If you get a close hit then you will have to investigate further. I don't know of a single incident where someone's weapon was taken permanently due to a close "hit". I have had to look a little closer in cases where I got a hit. The same thing will happen if someone has a similar SSN or name and DOB to yours and that other person has a warrant. These things happen all the time. As far as the legality of checking the weapons....I don't think you have given enough information to really say if it was the correct thing to do. |
What more information would help? I can get any details you need from that incident. It was aprox 9:45 pm on a friday night just outside Charlotte (may have been inside the city limits I am not sure), 1 g3 clone and 4 Garands in cases in the backseat, they were leaving a restaunt headed to a hotel for the night, and the fun show in the morning. Rolled into a DUI check, all paperwork on the vehicles was legit, nobody had been drinking. officer shined his light on teh cases, they were instructed to pull over to the side, all were made to exit the vehicle, and the weapons were removed from cases and the numbers run. When the initial hit on the G3 happened, they then began agressive questioning of who they were, why they had the guns, etc..... when they finally found out it was on a .25 not a G3 clone they relented and let them go. My buddy was most pissed because a 4 digit SN Garand (along with the rest) was manhandled, the stock was dinged, and it was laid out on the vehicle in a misting drizzle, so he had to spend the next 2 hours oiling them down, so he finally got to bed around 1:30. He was pissed but figured it was legal, but I have always had my doubts that mere posession of a something in a gun case was enough to detain someone and open these cases. |
A few years ago while working the night shift I came across a white female that was legally parked in an apartment complex. As I walked past her I could see she was crying. I stopped and talked to her, she had just had a fight with her boyfriend and was sitting in his truck. I the back seat I could see several rifles, mostly AR’s and M1A’s. I had her exited the truck and I ran every gun. All 7 AR’s and the 4 M1A’s were reported stolen. The suspect turned out to be the boyfriend. So you can bitch all you want, but if I believe something is not right, I will investigate further. I know the vet that got his weapons back sure was happy I checked the guns.
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| Combat-Jack I don't doubt that you are a law-abiding citizen but that isn't the point. It may also be a waste of our time for the serial numbers on your weapon to be checked by a LEO, again not the point. You and I have never met and my psychic powers suck. If there isn't a problem with your weapon and the serial number is plainly visible without disassembly then checking doesn't harm either one of us. The number isn't recorded anywhere when it is run and no one is making a secret file. Look at the situation from another standpoint, if you have some weapons stolen and the only chance that you have to get them back is by some LEO checking the serial number on a traffic stop would you want them to? Not everyone who buys a pistol at a gunshow runs the serial number on it (they're stupid for it). I have recovered stolen weapons from people who purchased them from pawn shops and checked the serial numbers at the time of purchase, only to have the burglary or serial numbers reported/turned in later. You can't have it both ways, if your gun gets stolen then you can't complain that the police aren't doing anything about it if you don't want us checking serial numbers as we come across them. |
I dunno, do you need a license to carry a refrigerator or a radio? Do you have to register your refrigerator or radios serial? Are stolen refrigerators and radios often used in the commission of crimes? Do refrigerators and radios pose an immediate threat to me as an officer? Next you'll tell me not to shine my light in your backseat
Yes and we as patrol officers run traffic just to issue NOI's 
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Yea, there's nothing thought provoking at all about a bunch of guys with rifles in their backseat. How bout securing your weapons in say.... the trunk? Where it doesn't look like you're about to pull a bank robbery? It's called being proactive rather than reactive |
Uhm, if you raead my first post it was a Ford Explorer, if you can show me a trunk more power to ya. How "proactive" are you willing to be? Run the numbers on every weapon you ever encounter as an officer? See a guy at the range and run his numbers? Yeah, vintage collectable Garands in hard cases, along with some vintage WWII uniforms on hangers and one on a manniquen (sp?) just screams ""bank robber" 
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