[ARCHIVED THREAD] - Question for you LEOs. (Page 1 of 3)
Posted: 1/25/2004 7:50:22 PM EDT
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On a thread I started about not doing business with a bank that had a policy against me legally carrying in their bank, one particular guy blasted the hell out of me with some pretty uncalled for insults. One of my responses to him, and I don't recall how this came up, was that if I am pulled over by a police officer for a traffic stop, I hand them my driver's license, insurance, and my carry license as I inform them that I am carrying and have a license. He proceeded to tell me that his LEO buddies told him that they would have put me on the ground for doing that. Every officer that I have asked locally here in Georgia have said that they would appreciate someone doing that and would certainly not put them on the ground. What are the opinions of the LEOs that are members here? If someone handed you their carry license and informed you that they were carrying, would you put them on the ground? |
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Quoted: ND law requires a CCW holder carrying to notify an officer of the law if they are stopped. They wouldn't get "put down". Georgia law does not require, but I feel it is the prudent thing to do. Saves any surprises and I really think that I may have gotten out of a ticket or 2 as most officers react very positively to the license. |
| I agree with the others that we like to be informed and you would not get mistreated for being up front. In Indiana, if you have a concealed carry permit, it is linked with your vehicle registration. If we pull someone over that has a permit, our dispatch notifies us of that fact. I give the person credit if they have notified me before our dispatch tells me and then I have to ask if they're carrying. I think your buddy is a little paranoid. |
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What are the opinions of the LEOs that are members here? If someone handed you their carry license and informed you that they were carrying, would you put them on the ground? If it is a "routine" traffic stop or contact, I'll have them leave it where it is and they (driver) stay put. The more the weapon is handled, the more of the chance of having an accident, especially with a person who is already nervous about being stopped. |
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What they said. So long as you have a permit, you're golden. The only thing I can think that MIGHT happen would be that an officer ask you to disarm yourself during the encounter with you and place the weapon in place he can watch/see it. Please note that this would come from an officer who is OVERLY/Extremely cautious and he meant no disrespect towards you (I know a few like this. They aren't anti CCW, just very cautious, almost to the point of paranoid. It even drives his parteners nuts.) He just doesn't know you and is looking out for his own safety. |
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That was an ignorant thing for him to say. I am always appreciative when a CHL holder lets me know ahead of time that a weapon is in the vehicle. I'm certainly not putting them on the ground for it. I'm assuming the guy that told you this was not an officer himself...at least I hope not. |
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Quoted: [u]He[/u] proceeded to tell me that [u]his[/u] LEO buddies told him that they would have put me on the ground for doing that. Larry, this guy is probably an idiot. You can only wonder how he phrased the scenario to his "buddies" to get that type of response. The guy was probably NOTACK or THE_CHEAT anyway and [i]NOT[/i] worth any further keystrokes.[/blue] |
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Quoted: That was an ignorant thing for him to say. I am always appreciative when a CHL holder lets me know ahead of time that a weapon is in the vehicle. I'm certainly not putting them on the ground for it. I'm assuming the guy that told you this was not an officer himself...at least I hope not. He also informed that he was also much better trained than I, even though he has no idea how much training I have. Oh well, it takes all kinds I suppose. |
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Quoted: ND law requires a CCW holder carrying to notify an officer of the law if they are stopped. They wouldn't get "put down". Double tap for Texas, however, I un-arm them until I am done with the stop, then I present it back to them in their glove box. It is not personal, it is safety! Plain and simple... |
| Most CCW holders I deal with tell me up front and ask me what I want them to do. I thank them for telling me, ask them where the gun is and to please keep their hands where I can see them until we're done. That kind of polite behavior from a CCW holder can tip the balance of the 'ticket or warning' scale in their favor if it's not something major. I would NEVER put someone on the ground for just telling me they had a CCW, and anyone in my department who made that a regular practice would get days off without pay. IME, CCW-holding citizens are the good guys. |
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Hey Larry G, Sounds to me like your doin the right thing. That's what I would want a driver or anyone else I came in contact with to do. Some L.E.O's might react differantly such as have you leave it where it is etc....however the cop who would put someone on the ground for that is a FUCKIN RETARD! Oh yeah to "Eric" not to bust on ya brotha, but a .22 will kill ya just as dead as any other caliber...just a thought! |
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Quoted: Eric....I hear ya and agree if we were talking about that, however look at how many L.E.O.s are killed with a .22 Not trying to start an argument here. Check out the Trooper Mark Coats video: I think it was a 25 that hit him once in the vest, did not penatrate, and another entered his elbow, traveled up his arm and right into his chest. Bled out QUICK! Just agreeing that the 22 / 25 cal suck just like anyother person with a gun. As stated before, I treat them with respect, but always disarm them. If they do not tell me about the gun, that changes the game! c edit for spelling [BD] |
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My concern about getting the weapon from the driver is HOW??? Have them hand it to you....ahhh no. Even worse..... climb in the car and get it yourself? Then you run into search and seizure problems. The solution is seperate the person from the weapon right? Please wait outside of your vehicle until I'm finished, Thanks a bunch. David |
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Quoted: Quoted: Eric....I hear ya and agree if we were talking about that, however look at how many L.E.O.s are killed with a .22 Not trying to start an argument here. Check out the TRooper Mark Coats video: I think it was a 25 that hit him once in the vest, did not enatrate, and another entered his elbow, traveled up his arm and right into his chest. Bled out QUICK! Trooper Coats was shot with a .22 magnum from a North American Arms mini-revolver. The shit bag shot at him once (missing, I believe). When Trooper Coats reached up to key his shoulder mike and call for help, the second shot entered under his armpit, traveling across his chest cavity and severing the aorta. He bled out almost instantly, and was most likely dead by the time his backup arrived. That being said, if you are carrying legally, by all means, tell me up front. I am not going to fault you for it. Dave |
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He said it was out on Martin Way near Carpenter Road IIRC, that's LPD isn't it? Something about being a witness to a car accident or something. That was a LONG time ago man. I can't recall the chick's name but she used to be DARE officer and my GF's ex husband used to bang her while he was still married. The GF will remember her name. She's a big gal, Kozlowsky, Kucinich, something like that. I always wound up paired with her in kick boxing class. I asked her about the ND one day (in passing) in class and man she got pissed. |
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We're not required to declare we are armed here in Oregon and I don't unless I am asked to get out of the car or get off the motorcycle. I have yet to be stopped for anything where declaring my weapon would make any difference in the outcome of the event. It is not a "get out of jail free" card. Somebody explain to me where the officer is more safe in unarming me during a traffic stop simply because I chose to tell him/her about the weapon rather than leave it concealed. Hoppy |
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Quoted: Somebody explain to me where the officer is more safe in unarming me during a traffic stop simply because I chose to tell him/her about the weapon rather than leave it concealed. Hoppy I don't want to know that you are carrying so that I can unarm you during the stop. In fact, if you tell me up front you have your permit and are carrying, I will most likely ask you to just leave the weapon where it is (although I may ask what you are carrying, just in case it is something I want to "fondle"[;)] ). The reason I want to know that you are carrying is just in case, while reaching for your wallet or getting the registration out of the glove compartment, your shirt or jacket rides up and I see the butt of a gun. If I know your are carrying legally, this won't come as a shock to me. If I don't know you are carrying, you are suddenly going to be looking down the barrel of MY gun. By telling me up front, it could save both of us uneeded adrenaline dumps (and soiled underwear). Dave |
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Quoted: Somebody explain to me where the officer is more safe in unarming me during a traffic stop simply because I chose to tell him/her about the weapon rather than leave it concealed. Because the belief amongst LEO's is that the weapon is then in the control of the officer for the duration of the stop, and cannot be used against them. |
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Quoted: Quoted: I think I heard the Trooper Coates story. Everything you want to know about it. [url]www.lineofduty.com/library/volume_1_program_4.pdf[/url] I wish all the "a cop was rude to me/treated like a SUBJECT/should not treat everyone like they were a criminal" crowd could watch the WHOLE video. This Line of Duty video was part of my academy training (along with a number of other deadly force videos). Videos like these really drove home the fact that no matter how cooperative and normal a person seems, you CANNOT let your guard down. Everytime I stop and approach a vehicle I wonder, did they just rob someplace? Did they just kill their family? Are they wanted? Are they frigging nuts? I sure don't want to find out the hard way........... |
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I just finished reading through the Trooper Coates/in the line of duty page. I'm not an LEO but am trying to become one so when I read stuff like that some of the technical terms are beyond me. What are the 1, 2, 2 1/2, and 3 positions when cuffing a suspect? I assume it is the positional relationship between the officer and the suspect but I can't discern the exact meaning from the names of the positions. Thanks. |
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Quoted: The reason I want to know that you are carrying is just in case, while reaching for your wallet or getting the registration out of the glove compartment, your shirt or jacket rides up and I see the butt of a gun. If I know your are carrying legally, this won't come as a shock to me. If I don't know you are carrying, you are suddenly going to be looking down the barrel of MY gun. By telling me up front, it could save both of us uneeded adrenaline dumps (and soiled underwear). Dave This is very understandable, but if the pistol is in the console between the seats or inside an inner jacket pocket and during the course of our business I don't have any reason to go in either of those places then why does the subject have to come up at all? It serves no purpose at all. Hoppy |
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Quoted: Quoted: Somebody explain to me where the officer is more safe in unarming me during a traffic stop simply because I chose to tell him/her about the weapon rather than leave it concealed. Because the belief amongst LEO's is that the weapon is then in the control of the officer for the duration of the stop, and cannot be used against them. That doesn't answer the question at all. How is the officer safer by me telling him/her about a legally concealed weapon? The truth of the matter is that the officer is in no more danger from me having a legally concealed weapon than if I didn't. Although I have the ability to cause harm, I do not have the intention. Hoppy |
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Hoppy, on the side of the road the officer has no idea of what your "intentions" are. Are you a legally armed citizen? Maybe. Are you a wanted felon who hates cops? Maybe. Declaring your firearm is not only for our safety...it's for yours! Remember, we don't know you! |
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Quoted: He said it was out on Martin Way near Carpenter Road IIRC, that's LPD isn't it? Something about being a witness to a car accident or something. That was a LONG time ago man. I can't recall the chick's name but she used to be DARE officer and my GF's ex husband used to bang her while he was still married. The GF will remember her name. She's a big gal, Kozlowsky, Kucinich, something like that. I always wound up paired with her in kick boxing class. I asked her about the ND one day (in passing) in class and man she got pissed. on martin way.. just east of carpenter is County, until galaxy dr I believe.. and then it's lacey again until about shipwreck cafe. |
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Quoted: Hoppy, on the side of the road the officer has no idea of what your "intentions" are. Are you a legally armed citizen? Maybe. Are you a wanted felon who hates cops? Maybe. We're going to tap dance around this for a while so I'll try once more to make my point. Two scenarios: 1. I have a legally concealed pistol in the console of my car. I get pulled for speeding. I don't say anything about the pistol and have no reason to open the console. You are never aware of its presence. You write my ticket and we go our separate ways. 2. I have a legally concealed pistol in the console of my car. I get pulled for speeding. I hand you my license and declare the pistol in the console. You do whatever you normally do in this situation. You write my ticket and we go our separate ways. My point is that you and I are just as safe in the first instance as in the second. Declaring your firearm is not only for our safety...it's for yours! Remember, we don't know you! Like I say your safety is not in any danger at all from me. Now mine from you... Hoppy |
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Hoppy, I was referring to the "your shirt rides up and I see the but of a gun scenario" Can you see where an LEO may take issue with not being told that you are armed? As for your two scenarios, I pull you over and you don't tell me. I'll find out from dispatch when they give me your DL return. I will then wonder why you did not tell me. I guarantee that it will make our visit on the side of the road even longer. Second, I pull you over and you do tell me. No one would touch the gun. I would ask you to step out of the vehicle and wait by the front of my car, while I wrote the citation, warning, whatever. I understand that you are in Or. In Tx, the driver is required to hand over his/her CCL with the drivers license. It's the law. |
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Quoted: What are the opinions of the LEOs that are members here? If someone handed you their carry license and informed you that they were carrying, would you put them on the ground? If it is a "routine" traffic stop or contact, I'll have them leave it where it is and they (driver) stay put. The more the weapon is handled, the more of the chance of having an accident, especially with a person who is already nervous about being stopped. They are never aloud to handle the weapon in my presence for that reason alone, simply becasue you do not know everyones intentions... If it is on them, then I remove it from the holster, and place it on my hood or seat, then as I mentioned earlier, I put it back in their glovebox, if it is in a secure place, in the car, evryone gets out and the gun stays nice and warm or cool, depending on the season. Then they all go to be reunited in the car when the stop is over... |
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Quoted: [As stated before, I treat them with respect, but always disarm them. If they do not tell me about the gun, that changes the game![BD] If disarming a Texas CHL holder who has been through the requisite state a federal background checks required to obtain their permit is your idea of treating someone with respect, I'd hate to see you treat someone with a lack of respect! |
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Quoted: Quoted: [As stated before, I treat them with respect, but always disarm them. If they do not tell me about the gun, that changes the game![BD] If disarming a Texas CHL holder who has been through the requisite state a federal background checks required to obtain their permit is your idea of treating someone with respect, I'd hate to see you treat someone with a lack of respect! It is all about safety. The policy of the department is what I follow and we hold constitutional rights very high where I am at! As far as your opinion of the meaning of respect, how do I know you? Although you may have been a CHL holder for a year, no tickets for three, and this a.m. you had a family disturbance you cannot handle, you are now pissed and driving 60 in a 35, erratically changing lanes, and some fuckin cop (me) is pulling you over. Although this may sound extreme, it is very comun. I treat all the same. With RESPECT! Fair and firm too. After the regular stop or the calming the dude down stop, the situation dictates itself... So, if you think my safety should be jepordized because he / you is a Texas CHL holder, well, thanks, but I would rather be considered rude! c |
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Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: [As stated before, I treat them with respect, but always disarm them. If they do not tell me about the gun, that changes the game![BD] If disarming a Texas CHL holder who has been through the requisite state a federal background checks required to obtain their permit is your idea of treating someone with respect, I'd hate to see you treat someone with a lack of respect! It is all about safety. The policy of the department is what I follow and we hold constitutional rights very high where I am at! As far as your opinion of the meaning of respect, how do I know you? Although you may have been a CHL holder for a year, no tickets for three, and this a.m. you had a family disturbance you cannot handle, you are now pissed and driving 60 in a 35, erratically changing lanes, and some fuckin cop (me) is pulling you over. Although this may sound extreme, it is very comun. I treat all the same. With RESPECT! Fair and firm too. After the regular stop or the calming the dude down stop, the situation dictates itself... So, if you think my safety should be jepordized because he / you is a Texas CHL holder, well, thanks, but I would rather be considered rude! c Incidentally, what exactly gives you the authority to open my glove box and place my weapon in there. The only reason you should be opening my glove box is if I give you the consent to search or you have probable cause. Sounds to me like you're doing a little unauthorized fishing expedition. Last time I checked I did not give up any of my 4th Amendent rights upon acceptance of my CHL. |
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What is so hard to understand about a police officer not wanting to have a roadside encounter (whether good or bad) with an armed individual that the officer does not know? It's not personal, it's a matter of safety. Granted, every law abiding citizen I've encountered that has a CCL, has been very cooperative, however I choose not to tempt fate. It only takes one time! Is it a violation of Constitutional right because you are not permitted to lawfully carry a concealed weapon in to a bank, post office, bar, etc...? You can't carry it there, you can't carry it when talking to me either. |
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Quoted: What is so hard to understand about a police officer not wanting to have a roadside encounter (whether good or bad) with an armed individual that the officer does not know? It's not personal, it's a matter of safety. Granted, every law abiding citizen I've encountered that has a CCL, has been very cooperative, however I choose not to tempt fate. It only takes one time! Is it a violation of Constitutional right because you are not permitted to lawfully carry a concealed weapon in to a bank, post office, bar, etc...? You can't carry it there, you can't carry it when talking to me either. Let me get this straight, as a CHL holder in Texas, I must identify myself to you as such and allow you do disarm me for your safety. However, if someone is not a CHL holder and chooses to carry but chooses not to notify you of their armed status can remain so? How do you plan on adressing that safety matter when you can't search their vehicle without consent or probable cause. BTW, I can legally carry my concealed weapon into my bank. Unless at some point in the future they decide to post a 30.06 sign. |