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Link Posted: 12/11/2022 11:16:19 AM EDT
[#1]
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Quoted:

Except most of the tramp stamps are on girls who continue making bad decisions so you get a distorted butterfly on a 250lb muffin top single mom with4 kids from different baby daddies one of which is still living with her. They can keep that shit covered up
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But are they really though?

Consider this...
Chick goes in for a low back tattoo...
Discovers mom jeans hide it.
Shit cans mom jeans. Anything that destroys mom jeans on fit/toned/in shape women? Is a benefit.

Back to low riders, and maintaining physique. Or else ridiculed for being a muffin top.

I find slobopotamuses to be nasty.
If tramp stamps causes fatties and mom jeans to disappear or strictly be worn by fatties and moms?

That's a win.

Except most of the tramp stamps are on girls who continue making bad decisions so you get a distorted butterfly on a 250lb muffin top single mom with4 kids from different baby daddies one of which is still living with her. They can keep that shit covered up

Funny, back in the day it was mostly the "cool chicks" getting them.  One that I know owns her own business, makes an obscene amount of money, fit body, and has a nice family.  Another one, a homemaker with a nice family.

Yeah there was a few crazy chicks in there too

I will grant that the sheer number of tattoos does tend to correlate with bad decision making (and personal trauma, imo).
Link Posted: 12/11/2022 11:25:12 AM EDT
[#2]
Tattoos on woman are disgusting and a hard stop, no go for me
Link Posted: 12/11/2022 11:36:03 AM EDT
[#3]
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Quoted:
Thots gonna thot. I love seeing them when older women bend over.
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Was at a Cracker Barrel last Sunday after the church crowd let out. Family of five seated near me. All in church clothes. All clean cut. Mom bent over for purse and just enough of her back is exposed to see some old tramp stamp showing over the nice skirt.

Two eldest are teenagers...an older boy and younger girl.  Looked like really nice kids. I imagine the kids have seen the stylized red horns over Mom's booty.  Must be weird for a 17 year old boy to know his mom had been a little freak about his age.

I've always found ink on women to be a turn off. The "stamp" was the biggest turn off. Nothing says "I've had several trains run on me" like that one.

Link Posted: 12/11/2022 11:37:45 AM EDT
[#4]
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Quoted:


Was at a Cracker Barrel last Sunday after the church crowd let out. Family of five seated near me. All in church clothes. All clean cut. Mom bent over for purse and just enough of her back is exposed to see some old tramp stamp showing over the nice skirt.

Two eldest are teenagers...an older boy and younger girl.  Looked like really nice kids. I imagine the kids have seen the stylized red horns over Mom's booty.  Must be weird for a 17 year old boy to know his mom had been a little freak about his age.

I've always found ink on women to be a turn off. The "stamp" was the biggest turn off. Nothing says "I've had several trains run on me" like that one.

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Thots gonna thot. I love seeing them when older women bend over.


Was at a Cracker Barrel last Sunday after the church crowd let out. Family of five seated near me. All in church clothes. All clean cut. Mom bent over for purse and just enough of her back is exposed to see some old tramp stamp showing over the nice skirt.

Two eldest are teenagers...an older boy and younger girl.  Looked like really nice kids. I imagine the kids have seen the stylized red horns over Mom's booty.  Must be weird for a 17 year old boy to know his mom had been a little freak about his age.

I've always found ink on women to be a turn off. The "stamp" was the biggest turn off. Nothing says "I've had several trains run on me" like that one.



sooo hot....
Link Posted: 12/11/2022 11:42:08 AM EDT
[#5]
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Quoted:

Am I the first to request pics?

Citing Arfcom rules of posting procedure 3.2(c), wherein it is stated that mentions of a poster's own tramp stamp must be accompanied by pic of said tramp stamp

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I have been in so many of these threads over the years and have also seen this picture posted in nearly all of them.  Mine has my husband's name in the design and right now is the first time it occurred to me that that's what he gets to see when I'm face down, booty up.  

He was with me when I got it though so he should have thought of that if it was going to be a problem.  

Am I the first to request pics?

Citing Arfcom rules of posting procedure 3.2(c), wherein it is stated that mentions of a poster's own tramp stamp must be accompanied by pic of said tramp stamp




Doubtful.  It's been 21 years so it probably just looks like a blurry splotch at this point anyway.
Link Posted: 12/11/2022 11:42:25 AM EDT
[#6]
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AKA the Alabama license plate
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I usually counter when a Tennessean hilariously tries to go all high-hat and put on airs, but i gotta give you that one.
Link Posted: 12/11/2022 11:52:16 AM EDT
[#7]
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Link Posted: 12/11/2022 12:12:46 PM EDT
[#8]
I would guess that 90% of the ladies here have some tattoos.
Some have beautiful full back tattoos down to and on their butts.

Link Posted: 12/11/2022 12:21:46 PM EDT
[#9]
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Quoted:

ok, I raffed
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My wife Kelly didn't.
Link Posted: 12/11/2022 12:22:47 PM EDT
[#10]
This is very common to see here.

Link Posted: 12/11/2022 12:25:35 PM EDT
[#11]
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Quoted:

Nothing sexy about a tattoo. Maybe you just find the lower back sexy. Nothing about it is improved by having felons draw on it in a permanently disfiguring manner.

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I've always hated ink on women, but the business side intrigues me. Met one of my neighbors several years ago. Inked up dude. We were discussing the rat rod truck he was building. Found out he was a high demand tattoo guy. In our converastion he said he only does ink work about half of the year. The balance of his time is spent helping his wife homeschooling their daughter, travelling and basically doing wharever the hell he wants. That month he was working on that truck for a show out of state.   Said his ink work is by advanced appointment only.   I've never heard of him getting busted for drugs, so i take him at his word that is how he supports his family.

If i had the same talent and did not mind being wallpapered in that ugly myself, sounds like a decent gig. Those folks can apparently make good money on a good reputation.
Link Posted: 12/11/2022 12:37:04 PM EDT
[#12]
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Certainly a lot of women haters here.

Then there is the "women do not deserve the right to vote" mob too ??

I get the feeling they are unable to get a girl and blame it on females in general. And it develops into hating them all.
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Y'all always go to "I bet you have a tiny dick" or "I bet you're a virgin" as to reasons why we don't think women should vote. Except I'm happily married with a 5 year old son, whose wife knows how I feel about the 19th amendment. And only a fucking idiot can argue that the world in general and this country in particular is better off since women got the right to vote.
Link Posted: 12/11/2022 12:56:48 PM EDT
[#13]
As long as Kelly/Kelly was disease free, I'd propose.
Link Posted: 12/11/2022 1:58:23 PM EDT
[#14]
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Quoted:


Over the net it's hard to tell.

In real life it's easy.

And it's not an emotional thought process, it's based on experiences with inked persons.

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Damn, only page four.  

Inked people are worthless scum. Period.



/media/mediaFiles/sharedAlbum/LOL-UMAD-BRO1gqf_zps44023202_JPG-109.jpg


Not at all, I just hate inkies.

LOL. Never too late to get some help, bro.


You are inked too?

Lol.

Labels inkies as “worthless scum”. Can’t identify them unless he’s told or sees the ink.

And GD says women are the ones who too emotional in their thought processes.


Over the net it's hard to tell.

In real life it's easy.

And it's not an emotional thought process, it's based on experiences with inked persons.


Forgive me if, given your reactions to humanity in general, I believe you have either no frame of reference or have only kept company with scumbags.
Link Posted: 12/11/2022 2:07:42 PM EDT
[#15]
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Y'all always go to "I bet you have a tiny dick" or "I bet you're a virgin" as to reasons why we don't think women should vote. Except I'm happily married with a 5 year old son, whose wife knows how I feel about the 19th amendment. And only a fucking idiot can argue that the world in general and this country in particular is better off since women got the right to vote.
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Indeed, technology, high standards of living, medical miracles, ability to travel around the globe in hours, all pookiedooks. It was way better when the average lifespan was 40 and infant/maternal mortality was sky high and feudal warfare was SOP.
Link Posted: 12/11/2022 2:19:02 PM EDT
[#16]
Man OPs opening post led me to believe that he was stating a pic thread lol


Edit
Well it’s sorta a pic thread but not a good one
Link Posted: 12/11/2022 2:20:21 PM EDT
[#17]
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Man OPs opening post led me to believe that he was stating a pic thread lol
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Ewww....gross! Then we'd be forced to look at the disgusting things!
Link Posted: 12/11/2022 2:22:22 PM EDT
[#18]
SALT LIFE!
or
Astrology
Link Posted: 12/11/2022 2:24:25 PM EDT
[#19]
Women will have to lose those mom jeans/dude pants/high waisted shit to show them off.
Link Posted: 12/11/2022 2:28:01 PM EDT
[#20]
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Quoted:

Forgive me if, given your reactions to humanity in general, I believe you have either no frame of reference or have only kept company with scumbags.
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Damn, only page four.  

Inked people are worthless scum. Period.



/media/mediaFiles/sharedAlbum/LOL-UMAD-BRO1gqf_zps44023202_JPG-109.jpg


Not at all, I just hate inkies.

LOL. Never too late to get some help, bro.


You are inked too?

Lol.

Labels inkies as “worthless scum”. Can’t identify them unless he’s told or sees the ink.

And GD says women are the ones who too emotional in their thought processes.


Over the net it's hard to tell.

In real life it's easy.

And it's not an emotional thought process, it's based on experiences with inked persons.


Forgive me if, given your reactions to humanity in general, I believe you have either no frame of reference or have only kept company with scumbags.


It's getting better since I started evading inked people.


Link Posted: 12/11/2022 2:29:30 PM EDT
[#21]
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I've always hated ink on women, but the business side intrigues me. Met one of my neighbors several years ago. Inked up dude. We were discussing the rat rod truck he was building. Found out he was a high demand tattoo guy. In our converastion he said he only does ink work about half of the year. The balance of his time is spent helping his wife homeschooling their daughter, travelling and basically doing wharever the hell he wants. That month he was working on that truck for a show out of state.   Said his ink work is by advanced appointment only.   I've never heard of him getting busted for drugs, so i take him at his word that is how he supports his family.

If i had the same talent and did not mind being wallpapered in that ugly myself, sounds like a decent gig. Those folks can apparently make good money on a good reputation.
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It can certainly be a lucrative career and there are some extremely talented artists doing it. There are also people doing it who shouldn't be given access to crayons.
Link Posted: 12/11/2022 2:51:14 PM EDT
[#22]
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Women will have to lose those mom jeans/dude pants/high waisted shit to show them off.
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Link Posted: 12/11/2022 2:54:47 PM EDT
[#23]
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The wife wanted one back in the day. She decided against it...I thought it would have been hot, but it only works on a few chicks, the rest just look shitty.
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Sorry but it doesn’t work on ANY chicks.

Attachment Attached File
Link Posted: 12/11/2022 3:01:21 PM EDT
[#24]
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The world does kinda need dumb sluts
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Kinda?

Bitch please, they are a necessity
Link Posted: 12/11/2022 4:05:54 PM EDT
[#25]
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It's getting better since I started evading inked people.


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Damn, only page four.  

Inked people are worthless scum. Period.



/media/mediaFiles/sharedAlbum/LOL-UMAD-BRO1gqf_zps44023202_JPG-109.jpg


Not at all, I just hate inkies.

LOL. Never too late to get some help, bro.


You are inked too?

Lol.

Labels inkies as “worthless scum”. Can’t identify them unless he’s told or sees the ink.

And GD says women are the ones who too emotional in their thought processes.


Over the net it's hard to tell.

In real life it's easy.

And it's not an emotional thought process, it's based on experiences with inked persons.


Forgive me if, given your reactions to humanity in general, I believe you have either no frame of reference or have only kept company with scumbags.


It's getting better since I started evading inked people.



I hope you're really serious about that. When you see ink on the firefighter who wants to cut you out of a motor vehicle accident or the e.r. nurse who wants to save your life, be sure to tell them to get the fuck away from you.
Link Posted: 12/11/2022 4:08:11 PM EDT
[#26]
I've joked for a decade about getting a pair of narwhals with crossed tusks on my lower back.  Someone once offered me $200 to do it... yeah, thats a bit low to give up my dignity.
Link Posted: 12/11/2022 4:36:36 PM EDT
[#27]
I like some tasteful tats on a lady.

I know, there I go tilting against the ArfTaliban again.

Link Posted: 12/11/2022 5:37:34 PM EDT
[#28]
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Quoted:

Indeed, technology, high standards of living, medical miracles, ability to travel around the globe in hours, all pookiedooks. It was way better when the average lifespan was 40 and infant/maternal mortality was sky high and feudal warfare was SOP.
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Y'all always go to "I bet you have a tiny dick" or "I bet you're a virgin" as to reasons why we don't think women should vote. Except I'm happily married with a 5 year old son, whose wife knows how I feel about the 19th amendment. And only a fucking idiot can argue that the world in general and this country in particular is better off since women got the right to vote.

Indeed, technology, high standards of living, medical miracles, ability to travel around the globe in hours, all pookiedooks. It was way better when the average lifespan was 40 and infant/maternal mortality was sky high and feudal warfare was SOP.



If women would stop voting their emotions, we wouldn't be where we are, would we?
Link Posted: 12/11/2022 5:39:37 PM EDT
[#29]
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If women would stop voting their emotions, we wouldn't be where we are, would we?
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Y'all always go to "I bet you have a tiny dick" or "I bet you're a virgin" as to reasons why we don't think women should vote. Except I'm happily married with a 5 year old son, whose wife knows how I feel about the 19th amendment. And only a fucking idiot can argue that the world in general and this country in particular is better off since women got the right to vote.

Indeed, technology, high standards of living, medical miracles, ability to travel around the globe in hours, all pookiedooks. It was way better when the average lifespan was 40 and infant/maternal mortality was sky high and feudal warfare was SOP.



If women would stop voting their emotions, we wouldn't be where we are, would we?

We probably would be. After all, men voting with their emotions led us here.
Link Posted: 12/11/2022 6:31:32 PM EDT
[#30]
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If women do it, ARFHoles hate it.  Honest to God, there are “men” here who don’t like blowjobs.  I didn’t know such creatures existed until I washed upin GD back in ‘08.
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Suck,  Margaret, SUCK.
Blow is just a figure-of-speech.

Yeeech.

Link Posted: 12/11/2022 6:58:26 PM EDT
[#31]
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Doubtful.  It's been 21 years so it probably just looks like a blurry splotch at this point anyway.
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I have been in so many of these threads over the years and have also seen this picture posted in nearly all of them.  Mine has my husband's name in the design and right now is the first time it occurred to me that that's what he gets to see when I'm face down, booty up.  

He was with me when I got it though so he should have thought of that if it was going to be a problem.  

Am I the first to request pics?

Citing Arfcom rules of posting procedure 3.2(c), wherein it is stated that mentions of a poster's own tramp stamp must be accompanied by pic of said tramp stamp




Doubtful.  It's been 21 years so it probably just looks like a blurry splotch at this point anyway.




I've seen a few on my old friends, some are holding up shockingly well
Link Posted: 12/11/2022 7:05:51 PM EDT
[#32]
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If women do it, ARFHoles hate it.  Honest to God, there are “men” here who don’t like blowjobs.  I didn’t know such creatures existed until I washed upin GD back in ‘08.
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The entire thing is based on enthusiasm imo.
And most women seem not enthused about it, even as they're wanting to please.
No enthusiasm, I am the sad
Link Posted: 12/11/2022 7:10:39 PM EDT
[#33]
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The entire thing is based on enthusiasm imo.
And most women seem not enthused about it, even as they're wanting to please.
No enthusiasm, I am the sad
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If women do it, ARFHoles hate it.  Honest to God, there are “men” here who don’t like blowjobs.  I didn’t know such creatures existed until I washed upin GD back in ‘08.

The entire thing is based on enthusiasm imo.
And most women seem not enthused about it, even as they're wanting to please.
No enthusiasm, I am the sad

I have to admit I had to tell my wife to quit trying.  It's a turn off when it seems forced.
Link Posted: 12/11/2022 7:15:30 PM EDT
[#34]
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Quoted:

Indeed, technology, high standards of living, medical miracles, ability to travel around the globe in hours, all pookiedooks. It was way better when the average lifespan was 40 and infant/maternal mortality was sky high and feudal warfare was SOP.
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Y'all always go to "I bet you have a tiny dick" or "I bet you're a virgin" as to reasons why we don't think women should vote. Except I'm happily married with a 5 year old son, whose wife knows how I feel about the 19th amendment. And only a fucking idiot can argue that the world in general and this country in particular is better off since women got the right to vote.

Indeed, technology, high standards of living, medical miracles, ability to travel around the globe in hours, all pookiedooks. It was way better when the average lifespan was 40 and infant/maternal mortality was sky high and feudal warfare was SOP.


Men built that, like they have everything since the dawn of time.

Imagine looking at this clown world on the verge of nuclear war with record high inflation, child predators grooming grade school students, incredibly high suicide/self harm rates especially among younger people, and almost everyone on some type mind altering prescription drug and acting like the human race is in a good place.

Fucking clownshoes.
Link Posted: 12/11/2022 8:05:30 PM EDT
[#35]
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Quoted:
Damn, only page four.  

Inked people are worthless scum. Period.
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Says the guy too cheap to pony up for a membership.

Know what your opinion means to me?

Jack

Shit




Link Posted: 12/11/2022 8:11:01 PM EDT
[#36]
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Quoted:

Indeed, technology, high standards of living, medical miracles, ability to travel around the globe in hours, all pookiedooks. It was way better when the average lifespan was 40 and infant/maternal mortality was sky high and feudal warfare was SOP.
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Y'all always go to "I bet you have a tiny dick" or "I bet you're a virgin" as to reasons why we don't think women should vote. Except I'm happily married with a 5 year old son, whose wife knows how I feel about the 19th amendment. And only a fucking idiot can argue that the world in general and this country in particular is better off since women got the right to vote.

Indeed, technology, high standards of living, medical miracles, ability to travel around the globe in hours, all pookiedooks. It was way better when the average lifespan was 40 and infant/maternal mortality was sky high and feudal warfare was SOP.


I think some folks are mistaking correlation and causation.  I think the actual cause was the transitioning of the Senators to direct election via the 17th Amendment.  The Senate was supposed to be farther removed from the whims of the electorate in order to intentionally make it harder to pass unConstitutional laws.
Link Posted: 12/11/2022 8:15:08 PM EDT
[#37]
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I've always hated ink on women, but the business side intrigues me. Met one of my neighbors several years ago. Inked up dude. We were discussing the rat rod truck he was building. Found out he was a high demand tattoo guy. In our converastion he said he only does ink work about half of the year. The balance of his time is spent helping his wife homeschooling their daughter, travelling and basically doing wharever the hell he wants. That month he was working on that truck for a show out of state.   Said his ink work is by advanced appointment only.   I've never heard of him getting busted for drugs, so i take him at his word that is how he supports his family.

If i had the same talent and did not mind being wallpapered in that ugly myself, sounds like a decent gig. Those folks can apparently make good money on a good reputation.
View Quote


My son is in his 2nd year as a tattoo artist. He will make considerably over $100K this year.
Link Posted: 12/11/2022 8:17:04 PM EDT
[#38]
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Quoted:

Indeed, technology, high standards of living, medical miracles, ability to travel around the globe in hours, all pookiedooks. It was way better when the average lifespan was 40 and infant/maternal mortality was sky high and feudal warfare was SOP.
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Y'all always go to "I bet you have a tiny dick" or "I bet you're a virgin" as to reasons why we don't think women should vote. Except I'm happily married with a 5 year old son, whose wife knows how I feel about the 19th amendment. And only a fucking idiot can argue that the world in general and this country in particular is better off since women got the right to vote.

Indeed, technology, high standards of living, medical miracles, ability to travel around the globe in hours, all pookiedooks. It was way better when the average lifespan was 40 and infant/maternal mortality was sky high and feudal warfare was SOP.


Do you credit the 19th amendment for that?
Link Posted: 12/11/2022 10:06:35 PM EDT
[#39]
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We probably would be. After all, men voting with their emotions led us here.
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Y'all always go to "I bet you have a tiny dick" or "I bet you're a virgin" as to reasons why we don't think women should vote. Except I'm happily married with a 5 year old son, whose wife knows how I feel about the 19th amendment. And only a fucking idiot can argue that the world in general and this country in particular is better off since women got the right to vote.

Indeed, technology, high standards of living, medical miracles, ability to travel around the globe in hours, all pookiedooks. It was way better when the average lifespan was 40 and infant/maternal mortality was sky high and feudal warfare was SOP.



If women would stop voting their emotions, we wouldn't be where we are, would we?

We probably would be. After all, men voting with their emotions led us here.



By voting to give women the right to vote.






Link Posted: 12/11/2022 10:29:23 PM EDT
[#40]
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Men built that, like they have everything since the dawn of time.

Imagine looking at this clown world on the verge of nuclear war with record high inflation, child predators grooming grade school students, incredibly high suicide/self harm rates especially among younger people, and almost everyone on some type mind altering prescription drug and acting like the human race is in a good place.

Fucking clownshoes.
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Y'all always go to "I bet you have a tiny dick" or "I bet you're a virgin" as to reasons why we don't think women should vote. Except I'm happily married with a 5 year old son, whose wife knows how I feel about the 19th amendment. And only a fucking idiot can argue that the world in general and this country in particular is better off since women got the right to vote.

Indeed, technology, high standards of living, medical miracles, ability to travel around the globe in hours, all pookiedooks. It was way better when the average lifespan was 40 and infant/maternal mortality was sky high and feudal warfare was SOP.


Men built that, like they have everything since the dawn of time.

Imagine looking at this clown world on the verge of nuclear war with record high inflation, child predators grooming grade school students, incredibly high suicide/self harm rates especially among younger people, and almost everyone on some type mind altering prescription drug and acting like the human race is in a good place.

Fucking clownshoes.

Pardoning the nuclear war thing and mind altering drugs requiring a prescription, every single one of those things has been done many times before in societies run entirely by men. And hey, nuclear war was built by men too. Attributing any of that to the fact that women are now able to participate in government is displaying a profound ignorance of history.

All those technological advances that make life profoundly better were made possible by women entering the workforce in large numbers. You may not like it, and it may totally disturb your bizarre revisionist history fantasy you have constructed in your head, but those bad things you’re upset about aren’t attributable to female participation in governance. They’re just things people do.
Link Posted: 12/11/2022 10:32:25 PM EDT
[#41]
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Do you credit the 19th amendment for that?
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Y'all always go to "I bet you have a tiny dick" or "I bet you're a virgin" as to reasons why we don't think women should vote. Except I'm happily married with a 5 year old son, whose wife knows how I feel about the 19th amendment. And only a fucking idiot can argue that the world in general and this country in particular is better off since women got the right to vote.

Indeed, technology, high standards of living, medical miracles, ability to travel around the globe in hours, all pookiedooks. It was way better when the average lifespan was 40 and infant/maternal mortality was sky high and feudal warfare was SOP.


Do you credit the 19th amendment for that?

No. It was a counterpoint to his assertion that the world was worse off since women got the ability to vote.
Link Posted: 12/11/2022 10:38:06 PM EDT
[#42]
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By voting to give women the right to vote.






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Y'all always go to "I bet you have a tiny dick" or "I bet you're a virgin" as to reasons why we don't think women should vote. Except I'm happily married with a 5 year old son, whose wife knows how I feel about the 19th amendment. And only a fucking idiot can argue that the world in general and this country in particular is better off since women got the right to vote.

Indeed, technology, high standards of living, medical miracles, ability to travel around the globe in hours, all pookiedooks. It was way better when the average lifespan was 40 and infant/maternal mortality was sky high and feudal warfare was SOP.



If women would stop voting their emotions, we wouldn't be where we are, would we?

We probably would be. After all, men voting with their emotions led us here.



By voting to give women the right to vote.







Clearly, y’all are too emotional to be trusted with self-governance.

Best go back to good, old-fashioned monarchy. I mean, that’s been the way of things for the vast majority of history. This whole “trusting men with the vote” thing was clearly a bad idea.
Link Posted: 12/11/2022 10:41:00 PM EDT
[#43]
Dirty inky checking in here....

Got mine years ago...took eight hours to complete, in two four-hour visits...

Out of all the ink I have, that's the one I regret the least....

Link Posted: 12/12/2022 11:27:07 AM EDT
[#44]
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Certainly a lot of women haters here.

Then there is the "women do not deserve the right to vote" mob too ??

I get the feeling they are unable to get a girl and blame it on females in general. And it develops into hating them all.
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If women do it, ARFHoles hate it.  Honest to God, there are “men” here who don’t like blowjobs.  I didn’t know such creatures existed until I washed upin GD back in ‘08.


Certainly a lot of women haters here.

Then there is the "women do not deserve the right to vote" mob too ??

I get the feeling they are unable to get a girl and blame it on females in general. And it develops into hating them all.



No. It just has to do with understanding psychology and the fundamental difference between the genders, as well as how this has played out throughout human history. What we have now is completely unnatural and unsustainable, it will fail. Possibly within my lifetime (millennial), maybe not we'll see.
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