Ha!

and the agents should be behind bars

Lets be fair.  Trump could throw his body in front of bullets intended for an LGBTQ activist and liberal idiots would still hate his guts.

Still, I wonder wtf they were thinking.  Defense council "so, can you give us the unclassified summary for TS/SCI document exhibit A?"   "Errrrrrrr"

Things get a lot easier to understand about this problem when you understand that the media’s function is NOT to inform and educate you.

Look at it from a different perspective-yours: You spend billions of dollars of your own money to pipe information into people’s homes, cars, cell phones. Is it going to be for Their benefit or Yours?

It is entertaining to see the talking points.  

The FBI and DOJ does pre-trial publicity that could get a fella disbarred in my state.  Disgusting.

The reasons to do this were to pollute the information space, derail the campaign and taint the jury pool.  

There is no legitimate prosecutorial or investigative reason for these actions.

Obviously I have no idea if you're telling the truth, but I'll accept that for sake of discussion.  Here are my responses:


How else would you like them to document the contents of each box?  Are they supposed to just take a picture of the stuff in the box without showing what it is? Or would you rather they expose themselves to accusations they planted stuff in the boxes after seizing them?


I'm not sure where you got that information, but I went back and looked at the search warrant--here's what it says:

Attached File



I can't speak for the media, or anybody else who was talking about that image when it first came out, but the origin of this photo is not anything related to the current case.  It's not even in the original indictment.

The photo was included in a court filing from the government in response to Trump's demand for a special master, which was a separate case that happened before the indictment.  The photo was included to back up the assertion that classified documents were recovered during the search.  That's it--there's no claim, or even implication, that they found them like that.  (I'll provide the documentation of that if anybody actually cares)


Same comment as above--it sounds like you are categorizing each box as an individual piece of evidence, but would not each document be an individual piece of evidence that should be documented separately?


As mentioned above, the photos and details of all the evidence were not relevant to the case being argued.  The special master case was not about the classified documents and any crimes, but a legal argument about whether the judge should appoint a special master. (if you don't remember, Judge Cannon did do so initially, and then a 3 judge panel quickly reversed her on appeal, and that was the end of that one)

As to the actual criminal case, I'm sure you would know much better than me that an indictment is not supposed to include full exhaustive documentation of all evidence that will be used at trial.  So the lack of additional photos so far doesn't mean much, unless somebody is looking for anything to use to build a narrative upon.

Now, to the part that actually interests me--I would like to know how we know that in that picture, we are looking at what is claimed to be cover sheets that came from the FBI.  I'm not sure that's actually been established.

We know that the government said that at some point on-site the classified documents were swapped for place holders before the boxes were carried away.

We know that the government used that picture as evidence of classified documents being found in the search.

I have seen nothing that tells us that the picture was taken AFTER the place holders were inserted, vs BEFORE.

I'd love to hear if somebody has seen something that actually makes that clear, but so far this is all starting to look like more assumptions and speculation from people who really want it to be true.

@JCoop

I still hear Joe Public say he is an Agent of Russia

Explains why they flew in their own evidence team for this versus the norm of using the ones from the local field office.

Drug dealers don't leave their guns and drugs on bingo tables at the police department, with the corroded ammo laid out next to the magazines? Who knew.

Kharn

Our government is unelected, answers to foreigners, circumvents our constitution and hates our citizens.

I don't recall a similar photo op staged when they recovered FJB's STOLEN document cache .  Team Biden did the initial call that they had classified docs and piously self reported to the FBI " hey , we'd like to turn in all the  docs Joey has stolen from SCIFS ".  Did I miss the photo where the docs were spread all over Joey's garage and the Corvettes hood with SIMILAR cover sheets ?   Maybe at the prestigious Chynese funded Penn Biden Center ?  I'll keep searching .

Well, even if there had been they found the POTUS to be incompetent for trial .

You are welcome to your opinion obviously, I would just say that if they had taken the unopened boxes away before they documented any contents, not only would there be even more opportunity for claims of document planting by Trump supporters than what we hear now, that sounds to me like a pretty good basis for getting the case thrown out of court.

Anyway, to be accurate, the first post of this thread is a video from some guy at Newsmax claiming that it happened, then reacting to that claim.  The internet is filled with similar videos and posts reacting to the claim, but I don't see anybody showing support for the claim.

Here's how the government described the picture in their court filing--sure seems to me like it's saying those are the actual document cover sheets and not the FBI placeholders.

Attached File


@JCoop

You didn't miss that, because the way the evidence in each case was treated by the FBI is clearly not the same.

And Biden wasn't even the president at the time.

The question I would ask is how were these cover sheets even there?  Who at the FBI decided ahead of time to bring cover sheets like this with them, and why?

And to that end, how about the Chocolate Caesar's classified documents?

Zero discussion about what if anything "the anoited one" took, had, or still has. Or how/if they were returned.

Holy shit. The case must be dismissed with prejudice.

Have you considered the idea they needed to document via photographs that they located the documents but had to put coversheets on them for the photographs?

You people will believe anything that supports trump being a victim.

Have you ever executed a search warrant?  That's just not how it's done.

This is for a miller N_T



That is NOT how any of it works that way with sensitive to secret documents are handled or investigated! What kind of imbecile would think any of this is how it is done?

I would’ve been fired instantly and probably subjected to a ton of investigations just being so sloppy and no care of said proper document procedure process!


I am not going to get into all the proper paperwork that needs to even start this process but it is so involved with said process of clearances and signatures and witness signatures and documentation of and signatures for that in a room that is approved with no smartwatches or phones or cameras. Time stamped when opened, time stamped when signed and verified etc.. there is a lot more
This thing is a fucking joke and anyone that believes it is on the up and up is a complete moron! PaS ( Plain and Simple)

So they had to document the evidence with photos, but since the evidence can't be photographed, they took a picture of some external items that they brought to the search site, so people can look at it and imagine what evidence lies beneath? sounds like this is being made up as they go

I hope you used the right stapler??

How do you know who took the picture? If they came ready with placeholder sheets I think it's safe to assume they made sure the people conducting the search had the necessary clearances. Attached File

All true.

No professional can look at this raid and think it was done in accord with any standard evidentiary procedure.  

So then can we expect to see various government witnesses on the stand testifying as to why they did what they did?

I just don't understand this idea that:

A is known
.
.
.
.
.
Obviously now Z is known, let's all react to Z!

Why is the most obvious course of action to assume everything between A and Z instead of waiting to see what the process, with which I assume you are quite familiar, the process that is our best effort at determining The Truth, produces?

I know it's SOP for The Internet in general, I'm just a bit surprised at what I see coming from people who claim to actually understand the system.  As far as I can tell I'm the only person in these threads who's actually scanning through hundreds of pages of various documents trying to find relevant information.  It's kinda disappointing.

Anyway, I'm going back to work.  You should be free of my annoyance the rest of the day.

ETA: I just scanned through the indictment again to make sure I didn't miss something, and wow--the difference between the story it tells and what everybody thinks happened is like night and day.

Also, I missed this detail that came out a few months ago--did you know that there was a room that Trump put a lock on literally while federal agents were in the building receiving classified documents from his attorney? When they were doing the raid and they found that room locked, they were told there was nothing inside and they moved on and never entered it. They also missed a room in Trump's bedroom that had an entrance hidden behind a piece of furniture.

why the fuck are you still digging your hole?  you're not persuading anyone; your arguments, your POV, and your assumptions are all stupid.  like REALLY fucking stupid.  Get help.  please.

No dog in this fight, but having handled thousands and thousands of classified docs of all stripes, there’s a critical piece missing from those sheets to make them legit. . I’m certain I’m not the only person here that knows it, either. Those sheets were propaganda.

CMiller I would say the FBI actually taking a photograph of classified material and releasing it to the public is probably a crime in and of itself.  I worked for the DoD and the Central Intelligence Agency in another life before transferring and retiring after 26 years as a police officer.  32CFR covering both the DoD and the CIA prohibits even the possession of photography equipment on the property.  I specifically stopped an confiscated cameras of people entering CIA facilities driving by and taking pictures many times.  I know the NSA has a similar regulation as I worked at the Ft Meade ranges for a decade and drove through Ft Meade 4 days a week.  

As a police officer we had an entire general order on Crime Scenes covering the actions taken, chain of command and notifications to be made.  Hell we even had a topic when dealing with the US Mail.  I would be certain the FBI has the exact same policies.  Your blind faith in what you want to believe in and the questioning of experts in this thread is almost like you are an adolescent.  David

Pretty funny that the usual blueAnon paid trolls are not in this thread for some weird reason…

They have done it to the average citizen.

Dude, stop already, fucking multiple SME's are telling you flat out you don't know

what you are talking about..Stop already, nobody cares what your useless opinion is

when the SME's have already laid out the actual facts.....

Jesus, cops/lawyers/MIL/security all who dealt with this shit for a living, all have told

you over and over again you are wrong.......

That was entered as official govt evidence.

FBI committed perjury.

Among other crimes.

Biden, FBI, NARA should all be sued for punitive damages for Violation of (President Trump's) Civil Rights Under Color of Law, US Code 1983.

Never used the acronym SME before but this post has a few . Why would you argue with and keep at it with someone who has the creds ?

I try and stfu when I get up against an expert .

Seems this was a conspiracy by a bunch of people from politicians and career criminals in the uni-party/Fed Gov/State Gov's/Democrats/Rhino's, that maybe should be looked at under RICO laws...sure seems to apply here.......

He's getting paid for posts and replies.

Yes.

He has an extraordinary level of personal investment in this, bound that of typical internet dick swinging. He is either an AI bot or he is paid to be here.

Simultaneously telling us Trump is going to fix it.

To be clear, those are allegations.  An indictment is an allegation or set of allegations based on the most prejudicial premises and attestations which have not been subject to the crucible of trial and cross examination.  Sometimes those premises and attestations turn out to be complete crap.  You know, like sometimes people swear to stuff they know is false so they can spy on a campaign, or go forward on novel untested theories because they hate an orange dude.

Not sure what you're saying with the a to z thing.  I would say that everyone can use circumstantial evidence.  In most courts circumstantial evidence has the same weight as direct evidence.  Sometimes it's better.  DNA vs. eyewitness?  I'll generally take DNA.  

Oh hey, you never did disclose your trusted legal analysts.  What did they day about the Colorado/Trump ballot case?  What did they say about Trump/Russia?  What did they believe about the FISA court being subverted to spy on a party opponent?  

The point I was trying to make is that there is so much information and detail, especially about the real evidence, that will not come out until this thing actually gets to trial, yet the general theme that I observe is that people are saying "if we don't have it all now, it doesn't exist, therefore conclusion X" (fill in the blank with a bunch of possibilities), and then proceed to react and get outraged as if conclusion X is proven fact.

The legal system is a place where facts and evidence still matter, I'm trying to stick to what is known or likely and not going any further.

If you read the indictment, it's obvious that the government has a bunch of video surveillance from Mar-a-Lago showing various things happening with all these boxes of documents over a period of months.  It's also obvious they have phone communications between various Trump employees, and they also have cooperating witnesses from Mar-A-Lago employees.

That ain't everything, but it also ain't nothing.

It would be nice to have a conversation with people who have at least reviewed what has actually come out in court, but I guess it's too much to hope for.  So we spend all our time talking about speculation, ridiculous fake news, fantastical narratives, etc. instead.