[ARCHIVED THREAD] - Rocksalt (Page 1 of 2)
Posted: 1/12/2012 8:42:41 PM EDT
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I'm not all that old, my folks were born right around the end of WWII, but I grew up hearing all sorts of stories about old men using shotgun shells loaded with rocksalt to chase kids off property they weren't supposed to be on. Now, these stories were told to me as 1st-hand accounts by uncles, stepdads, and other men of outstanding moral fortitude and impeccable character, all of whom I know to be master tellers of tall-tales, by which I mean total bullshit artists in the kindest way.
Now, I'm not asking if rocksalt is a good defensive load, I'm not asking anything about defense at all...all I want to know is have any of you old farts ever actually been shot by rocksalt, and if so, is there I fine story of misspent youth to go along with it? |
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A member here, Old_Painless, has an excellent site of his own: Theboxotruth.com, which answers this and many other questions.
Back story: Old_Painless's site is a place where he's made many quasi-experimental experiments with guns and bullets. Basically, the Box o' Truth was his original test, in which he tested several bullets for penetration. The site expanded from there, and is a valuable resource: he's already done many of the tests we all wanted to do, but never had the time/money/resources to do. It's worth spending an afternoon there! |
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A member here, Old_Painless, has an excellent site of his own: Theboxotruth.com, which answers this and many other questions. Back story: Old_Painless's site is a place where he's made many quasi-experimental experiments with guns and bullets. Basically, the Box o' Truth was his original test, in which he tested several bullets for penetration. The site expanded from there, and is a valuable resource: he's already done many of the tests we all wanted to do, but never had the time/money/resources to do. It's worth spending an afternoon there! Can't find the rocksalt one. Do you happen to have a link? |
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A member here, Old_Painless, has an excellent site of his own: Theboxotruth.com, which answers this and many other questions. Back story: Old_Painless's site is a place where he's made many quasi-experimental experiments with guns and bullets. Basically, the Box o' Truth was his original test, in which he tested several bullets for penetration. The site expanded from there, and is a valuable resource: he's already done many of the tests we all wanted to do, but never had the time/money/resources to do. It's worth spending an afternoon there! Can't find the rocksalt one. Do you happen to have a link? #33 ETA http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/bot33.htm |
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A member here, Old_Painless, has an excellent site of his own: Theboxotruth.com, which answers this and many other questions. Back story: Old_Painless's site is a place where he's made many quasi-experimental experiments with guns and bullets. Basically, the Box o' Truth was his original test, in which he tested several bullets for penetration. The site expanded from there, and is a valuable resource: he's already done many of the tests we all wanted to do, but never had the time/money/resources to do. It's worth spending an afternoon there! While I appreciate Old_Painless' efforts, it actually reinforces the story...the rocksalt was intended as a non-lethal yet scary and painful way of clearing out, not killing, unwelcome nuisances. At least in the stories I heard. Also, the cardboard targets he was shooting at were all DRT, so they can't tell us how it felt.  If I don't get one real-life account of an arfcommer getting pelted, I'm going to have to reason the the modern science of the internets has debunked this myth!
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Quoted: Quoted: A member here, Old_Painless, has an excellent site of his own: Theboxotruth.com, which answers this and many other questions. Back story: Old_Painless's site is a place where he's made many quasi-experimental experiments with guns and bullets. Basically, the Box o' Truth was his original test, in which he tested several bullets for penetration. The site expanded from there, and is a valuable resource: he's already done many of the tests we all wanted to do, but never had the time/money/resources to do. It's worth spending an afternoon there! While I appreciate Old_Painless' efforts, it actually reinforces the story...the rocksalt was intended as a non-lethal yet scary and painful way of clearing out, not killing, unwelcome nuisances. At least in the stories I heard. Also, the cardboard targets he was shooting at were all DRT, so they can't tell us how it felt. If I don't get one real-life account of an arfcommer getting pelted, I'm going to have to reason the the modern science of the internets has debunked this myth!Why would it be debunked from lack of evidence? People loaded all kinds of crap into shotgun shells; especially during WWII when ammo was scarce  The one I always wondered about was 13 silver dimes in a .410 shell  That sounded cool Speed |
| I shot some of the neighbors pigs in the ass with 20ga rock salt to get them out of my corn crib. I had to be within 10 feet of them for it to have any noticeable effect at all. I worked with an old man years ago who told me the story of swimming the river naked as a young boy and raiding a watermelon patch with some buddies. The property owner shot him with a bacon rind out of a 12ga, hitting him in the small of the back. He said he thought he'd been hit with birdshot, and it raised a huge whelp! I've also heard popcorn works well at close range. |
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omfg this is like the 6th rocksalt thread this week. WTF is walmart having a sale on the shit lol, the other threads got me thinking about all the stories I heard growing up. I'm not looking for Walmart stories of home defense expertise, I too have had my fill of "So I was at the gun counter" accounts. I just want a real account of a person who's been shot at with rocksalt some time in the past. I heard it enough there has to be some element of truth to it, and while I know I can probably research it in 10 minutes with Google and some coffee, I like to hear stories from people a generation or two older. All my grandparents died long ago. I'm looking for stand-ins. By the way...that watermelon bit from the 2nd post...funny as hell, never heard it before.
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One thing for sure is that anybody intending to shoot kids with a shotgun loaded with rocksalt just to "scare them off" in todays America, won't have it work out as well as they had hoped.
ETA- This reminds me of growing up in Florida during the 70s. Some of the best Bass fishing was in the numerous retention ponds in the seemingly endless orange groves where we lived. Myself and the other miscreant, free-range children I ran with would spend our days fishing these ponds and enjoying life. For a while there was one grove owner who would threaten to do something or another every time he caught us on his property but he was an old fat man and we easily out ran him. One day, just before we started to run, he called a truce. He told us we could fish on his property on three conditions; 1- catch & release the bass (keep the catsfish if we wanna) 2- don't pick more oranges than you can eat while on the property (he knew it was stupid to ask us not to eat ANY  ) and 3- If we see anybody in any car drive in and start loading up oranges to run to his house and tell him. We kept our end of the bargain and he never bothered us again. I guess he figured we were cheaper than guard dogs 
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Judging from the damage inflicted by the wad on O_P's web site, I'm gonna guess that most of these stories were told of and by old-timers who were using muzzleloading shottys. A cardboard wad wouldn't do as much damage.
Also, I wonder how much a densly-packed charge of rock salt would fare vs. a lightly-packed one. Would 00 rock salt work better than #7 rock salt? (Seriously: would larger grains of salt survive being shot from a barrel?) |
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A member here, Old_Painless, has an excellent site of his own: Theboxotruth.com, which answers this and many other questions. Back story: Old_Painless's site is a place where he's made many quasi-experimental experiments with guns and bullets. Basically, the Box o' Truth was his original test, in which he tested several bullets for penetration. The site expanded from there, and is a valuable resource: he's already done many of the tests we all wanted to do, but never had the time/money/resources to do. It's worth spending an afternoon there! While I appreciate Old_Painless' efforts, it actually reinforces the story...the rocksalt was intended as a non-lethal yet scary and painful way of clearing out, not killing, unwelcome nuisances. At least in the stories I heard. Also, the cardboard targets he was shooting at were all DRT, so they can't tell us how it felt. If I don't get one real-life account of an arfcommer getting pelted, I'm going to have to reason the the modern science of the internets has debunked this myth!Why would it be debunked from lack of evidence? People loaded all kinds of crap into shotgun shells; especially during WWII when ammo was scarce
The one I always wondered about was 13 silver dimes in a .410 shell That sounded cool
Speed Won't fit in a .410 bore, O_P had to cut the pedals off the wad just to make them fit in a 12 ga. shell. |
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Judging from the damage inflicted by the wad on O_P's web site, I'm gonna guess that most of these stories were told of and by old-timers who were using muzzleloading shottys. A cardboard wad wouldn't do as much damage. Also, I wonder how much a densly-packed charge of rock salt would fare vs. a lightly-packed one. Would 00 rock salt work better than #7 rock salt? (Seriously: would larger grains of salt survive being shot from a barrel?) Plastic wads are a fairly recent invention. Card board was still common up until about the 80's. |
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Quoted: Quoted: Judging from the damage inflicted by the wad on O_P's web site, I'm gonna guess that most of these stories were told of and by old-timers who were using muzzleloading shottys. A cardboard wad wouldn't do as much damage. Also, I wonder how much a densly-packed charge of rock salt would fare vs. a lightly-packed one. Would 00 rock salt work better than #7 rock salt? (Seriously: would larger grains of salt survive being shot from a barrel?) Plastic wads are a fairly recent invention. Card board was still common up until about the 80's. Yep. I remember them thar cardboard wads, sonny. |
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I was shot at and missed by old man "crowbar" crossing his property to get to a favorite hunting ground. A buddy a few weeks before wasn't as lucky. He said it stung like Hell. I believed him.
I was about 60-70 yards from him so being shot at got my attention,but I didn't get a scratch. After Crowbar died we went to the auction of his personal property and I remember there being an old box of cardboard shells with the old style card/roll crimp pried open and resealed with wax. Dad told me it was rocksalt. He only had one gun and it was an old single shot 12 gauge with a VERY long barrel that was actually roll marked "Long Tom" on the barrel. I assume that was what shot at me all those years before. |
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A member here, Old_Painless, has an excellent site of his own: Theboxotruth.com, which answers this and many other questions. Back story: Old_Painless's site is a place where he's made many quasi-experimental experiments with guns and bullets. Basically, the Box o' Truth was his original test, in which he tested several bullets for penetration. The site expanded from there, and is a valuable resource: he's already done many of the tests we all wanted to do, but never had the time/money/resources to do. It's worth spending an afternoon there! While I appreciate Old_Painless' efforts, it actually reinforces the story...the rocksalt was intended as a non-lethal yet scary and painful way of clearing out, not killing, unwelcome nuisances. At least in the stories I heard. Also, the cardboard targets he was shooting at were all DRT, so they can't tell us how it felt. If I don't get one real-life account of an arfcommer getting pelted, I'm going to have to reason the the modern science of the internets has debunked this myth!No, it does not "reinforce" the story. It disproves it. As I noted in Rocksalt in a Shotgun, unless the shooter was within a few feet of his target, rock salt would have no effect at all. "1. At 20 yards, you might scare a dog or some other animal, but you sure wouldn't break the skin. 5. Movie plots that show someone "burning" a bad guy at across-the-yard distances are hogwash." And so are stories about how "Farmer Brown burned us from across his field with rack salt." It could not happen. |
| As kid I was shot raiding an orchard. Now a days kids getting shot at would be a horrible thing all over the news. But in the late 60's early 70's it was fairly common. And since the victims of these events where doing something at the time of the shooting that would earn them an ass whipping if it got out. Most events of farmer induced shootings went unreported except in secrecy at the fort. And since 5 to 12 year olds of the time frame lacked the interwebs or any sort of forensics to properly determine the exact projectiles used they where all called "rocksalt". I can tell you this what ever the farmers where using it hurt like hell and left a nasty red welt. And when washed out with a washcloth and soap in an effort to keep the blood off my shirt so my mother would not beat my ass for that. It really stung like hell. Growing up in my era poor decisions always led to pain inflicted in all sorts of ways. |
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If I don't get one real-life account of an arfcommer getting pelted, I'm going to have to reason the the modern science of the internets has debunked this myth! Just a note on your comment. Such stories are basically worthless, as folks that were "stung" by someone shooting a shotgun at them have no way of knowing what was loaded in that shotgun. If it was across a field, and if it stung, then it was probably very small birdshot. If it was rock salt, they would have had to have been within a few feet of the shooter to feel anything. |
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Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: A member here, Old_Painless, has an excellent site of his own: Theboxotruth.com, which answers this and many other questions. Back story: Old_Painless's site is a place where he's made many quasi-experimental experiments with guns and bullets. Basically, the Box o' Truth was his original test, in which he tested several bullets for penetration. The site expanded from there, and is a valuable resource: he's already done many of the tests we all wanted to do, but never had the time/money/resources to do. It's worth spending an afternoon there! While I appreciate Old_Painless' efforts, it actually reinforces the story...the rocksalt was intended as a non-lethal yet scary and painful way of clearing out, not killing, unwelcome nuisances. At least in the stories I heard. Also, the cardboard targets he was shooting at were all DRT, so they can't tell us how it felt. If I don't get one real-life account of an arfcommer getting pelted, I'm going to have to reason the the modern science of the internets has debunked this myth!No, it does not "reinforce" the story. It disproves it. As I noted in Rocksalt in a Shotgun, unless the shooter was within a few feet of his target, rock salt would have no effect at all. "1. At 20 yards, you might scare a dog or some other animal, but you sure wouldn't break the skin. 5. Movie plots that show someone "burning" a bad guy at across-the-yard distances are hogwash." And so are stories about how "Farmer Brown burned us from across his field with rack salt." It could not happen. One of the problems with your Box O Truth test of rock salt is the ammo that you used. Using a high brass 3 3/4 dram field load was a mistake. That uses a relatively slow burning powder. Shotshells rely primarily on the weight of the ejecta to generate operating pressures between 9000 and 12000 PSI, generally speaking. The crimp has very little to do with it. Since the rock salt is much lighter than the lead payload, you would need to use faster burning powders to achieve a result more congruent with the historical practical application. Using a powder charge for a 1 oz 12 ga load, and a wad made to accommodate a 1 1/2 oz load of lead would have yielded completely different results. |
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Once more, Old_Painless delivers! JunkXP, thanks for providing the link! And for everyone else... just as I said earlier, TBo'T makes for a good rainy afternoon of browsing! +1 It's well worth reading, and re-reading. He dispels many, many myths. I sent him some AK mags years ago and he shot through them to see the effects. Good stuff. 
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Could it have been a larger pellet, something like water softener salt?
I did this experiment when I was 16 with a piece of rusty 8 inch stove pipe (yes, a real woodburning stove pipe). My results were similar, I used a 12 ga dove load and dumped out the #8 shot, loaded it back with Morton's rock salt. IIRC, I shot the pipe at 10 - 12 feet. The wad dented the pipe, and there were some short 1/2 inch long scratches on the pipe around the wad shrike from the salt.The pattern was maybe 6 inches across. There was no penetration of the pipe at this distance. I was looking for something to shoot at dogs in my sheep pen. I always thought if I had something heavier, I might get better results. |
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A member here, Old_Painless, has an excellent site of his own: Theboxotruth.com, which answers this and many other questions. Back story: Old_Painless's site is a place where he's made many quasi-experimental experiments with guns and bullets. Basically, the Box o' Truth was his original test, in which he tested several bullets for penetration. The site expanded from there, and is a valuable resource: he's already done many of the tests we all wanted to do, but never had the time/money/resources to do. It's worth spending an afternoon there! While I appreciate Old_Painless' efforts, it actually reinforces the story...the rocksalt was intended as a non-lethal yet scary and painful way of clearing out, not killing, unwelcome nuisances. At least in the stories I heard. Also, the cardboard targets he was shooting at were all DRT, so they can't tell us how it felt. If I don't get one real-life account of an arfcommer getting pelted, I'm going to have to reason the the modern science of the internets has debunked this myth!I know a guy who got shot in the naked butt and back getting run off of a farm at 0300 with his similarly naked girlfriend about 40 years ago. She was much faster, so he got most of the rock salt. It barely penetrated his hide (his girlfriend got the pieces out with a nail file about 45 minutes later but it hurt a great deal. |
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If I don't get one real-life account of an arfcommer getting pelted, I'm going to have to reason the the modern science of the internets has debunked this myth! Just a note on your comment. Such stories are basically worthless, as folks that were "stung" by someone shooting a shotgun at them have no way of knowing what was loaded in that shotgun. If it was across a field, and if it stung, then it was probably very small birdshot. If it was rock salt, they would have had to have been within a few feet of the shooter to feel anything. That would be correct –– the guy I know who was shot was fornicating on the porch of an "abandoned" farm when the farmer who lived there emerged in his underwear with a shotgun. Total range was somewhere around 5-10 yards, and he was accelerating because he really, truly thought that he was going to be murdered. He was amazed at how much faster his girlfriend was. |
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A member here, Old_Painless, has an excellent site of his own: Theboxotruth.com, which answers this and many other questions. Back story: Old_Painless's site is a place where he's made many quasi-experimental experiments with guns and bullets. Basically, the Box o' Truth was his original test, in which he tested several bullets for penetration. The site expanded from there, and is a valuable resource: he's already done many of the tests we all wanted to do, but never had the time/money/resources to do. It's worth spending an afternoon there! While I appreciate Old_Painless' efforts, it actually reinforces the story...the rocksalt was intended as a non-lethal yet scary and painful way of clearing out, not killing, unwelcome nuisances. At least in the stories I heard. Also, the cardboard targets he was shooting at were all DRT, so they can't tell us how it felt. If I don't get one real-life account of an arfcommer getting pelted, I'm going to have to reason the the modern science of the internets has debunked this myth!No, it does not "reinforce" the story. It disproves it. As I noted in Rocksalt in a Shotgun, unless the shooter was within a few feet of his target, rock salt would have no effect at all. "1. At 20 yards, you might scare a dog or some other animal, but you sure wouldn't break the skin. 5. Movie plots that show someone "burning" a bad guy at across-the-yard distances are hogwash." And so are stories about how "Farmer Brown burned us from across his field with rack salt." It could not happen. Please, allow me to refute your #1. in 1967, Tom Wagnor, a friend of mine, lost his left Eye to 'Rock Salt', 20yds if not more. And yes, I was there. By the way, the 'Ice Cream' Rock Salt you used is not the same, size wise, as the Rock Salt I remember. The Rock Salt was used in Water Softeners and ran from 'Green Pea' size up to 'Marble' size. It may not be 'Lethal', but it was not 'Harmless'. |
HELL it's a shotgun. Stuff that thing with whatever. Rock salt with buffer careful too close and penetration will occur. Peas, corn, rocks(with buffer), milo maze, olives(russian) thorns. It's a shotgun. Hard rubber balls from rock sifters. Nails. bolts........etc. A good shotshell reloader will know of these things. Buffer is your friend. Pepper corns are one of my all time favorites
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Quoted: Quoted: One of the problems with your Box O Truth test ..... I am sure we are all looking forward to your post where you show us how to do it right, take lots of pics, and post the results here. Well....if that isn't exactly what I expected out of you. Doesn't matter if it's religion or external ballistics, now does it?  |
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A member here, Old_Painless, has an excellent site of his own: Theboxotruth.com, which answers this and many other questions. Back story: Old_Painless's site is a place where he's made many quasi-experimental experiments with guns and bullets. Basically, the Box o' Truth was his original test, in which he tested several bullets for penetration. The site expanded from there, and is a valuable resource: he's already done many of the tests we all wanted to do, but never had the time/money/resources to do. It's worth spending an afternoon there! While I appreciate Old_Painless' efforts, it actually reinforces the story...the rocksalt was intended as a non-lethal yet scary and painful way of clearing out, not killing, unwelcome nuisances. At least in the stories I heard. Also, the cardboard targets he was shooting at were all DRT, so they can't tell us how it felt. If I don't get one real-life account of an arfcommer getting pelted, I'm going to have to reason the the modern science of the internets has debunked this myth!My grandpa had a problem with a bull flipping over its feed bunk day after day. So he shot it in the ass with a 12ga loaded with rock salt. The bull never flipped the feed bunk again. Does that count? |
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One of the problems with your Box O Truth test ..... I am sure we are all looking forward to your post where you show us how to do it right, take lots of pics, and post the results here. Well....if that isn't exactly what I expected out of you. Doesn't matter if it's religion or external ballistics, now does it? http://contagiouscommentary.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/08/lalalala-listening.jpg Yep, as usual, you pop off about subjects that you don't really have any knowledge about, and refuse to do any tests to prove your false opinions. |
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Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: One of the problems with your Box O Truth test ..... I am sure we are all looking forward to your post where you show us how to do it right, take lots of pics, and post the results here. Well....if that isn't exactly what I expected out of you. Doesn't matter if it's religion or external ballistics, now does it? http://contagiouscommentary.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/08/lalalala-listening.jpg Yep, as usual, you pop off about subjects that you don't really have any knowledge about, and refuse to do any tests to prove your false opinions. Seriously Don?? |
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Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: One of the problems with your Box O Truth test ..... I am sure we are all looking forward to your post where you show us how to do it right, take lots of pics, and post the results here. Well....if that isn't exactly what I expected out of you. Doesn't matter if it's religion or external ballistics, now does it? http://contagiouscommentary.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/08/lalalala-listening.jpg Yep, as usual, you pop off about subjects that you don't really have any knowledge about, and refuse to do any tests to prove your false opinions. I'm in the The Pit. |
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A member here, Old_Painless, has an excellent site of his own: Theboxotruth.com, which answers this and many other questions. Back story: Old_Painless's site is a place where he's made many quasi-experimental experiments with guns and bullets. Basically, the Box o' Truth was his original test, in which he tested several bullets for penetration. The site expanded from there, and is a valuable resource: he's already done many of the tests we all wanted to do, but never had the time/money/resources to do. It's worth spending an afternoon there! While I appreciate Old_Painless' efforts, it actually reinforces the story...the rocksalt was intended as a non-lethal yet scary and painful way of clearing out, not killing, unwelcome nuisances. At least in the stories I heard. Also, the cardboard targets he was shooting at were all DRT, so they can't tell us how it felt. If I don't get one real-life account of an arfcommer getting pelted, I'm going to have to reason the the modern science of the internets has debunked this myth!No, it does not "reinforce" the story. It disproves it. As I noted in Rocksalt in a Shotgun, unless the shooter was within a few feet of his target, rock salt would have no effect at all. "1. At 20 yards, you might scare a dog or some other animal, but you sure wouldn't break the skin. 5. Movie plots that show someone "burning" a bad guy at across-the-yard distances are hogwash." And so are stories about how "Farmer Brown burned us from across his field with rack salt." It could not happen. O_P, no disrespect intended, but you're missing the point of the rocksalt. Of course there was an effect. Old man tells you to get off his property, you laugh and run away. Old man tells you to get off his property while pointing a shotgun at you, you GET THE FUCK OFF HIS PROPERTY. If you hear a big boom behind you, maybe the pitter-patter of harmless bits of salt, maybe you know its rocksalt, maybe you don't...but you're less likely to be back. I didn't ask if anyone had any dead relatives or missing limbs and could testify in court. All I wanted were some good stories, because these old yarns are too prevalent not to have some grounding in truth. Hell, maybe there were thousands upon thousands of homicidal old men across America who just couldn't fucking hit anything, and caring dads just told the kids it was rocksalt so they wouldn't be traumatized. |