[ARCHIVED THREAD] - Rule 2 is flawed. (Page 1 of 2)
Posted: 12/23/2008 6:38:13 AM EDT
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When teaching, I tend to alter the wording: Never let an unholstered handgun cover anything that you're not willing to destroy.
Discuss. |
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Jeff Cooper, Lt. Col. USMC (ret). The Art of the Rifle
1. All guns are always loaded. 2. Never let the muzzle cover anything that you are not willing to destroy. 3. Keep your finger off the trigger until your sights are on the target. 4. Be sure of your target. If it ain't broke don't fix it. |
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Quoted:
Jeff Cooper, Lt. Col. USMC (ret). The Art of the Rifle
1. All guns are always loaded. 2. Never let the muzzle cover anything that you are not willing to destroy. 3. Keep your finger off the trigger until your sights are on the target. 4. Be sure of your target. If it ain't broke don't fix it. Jeff was right more often than not, but the muzzle on many IWB holsters and all horizontal rigs I've seen is exposed. Hypocrisy breeds contempt in new shooters. How do you explain it to them? |
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If its in a holster, it is considered safe.
Example: You are in your house. Gun in a holster that points the muzzle straight down. When you go upstairs, the gun is now pointing at people that are downstairs. So does this mean you never go upstairs with the gun holstered? At SASS shooting competitions for example, the rule is the gun is safe in a holster. Only when the shooter places his or her hand on the gun does the issue of where the muzzle is pointing come into play as far as safety infractions are concerned. |
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..................... but the muzzle on many IWB holsters and all horizontal rigs I've seen is exposed. Once properly holstered in a proper holster it's considered safe. They don't go bang by themselves. Wait a minute, you usually make more sense than this which makes me question myself. That's what I said in the original post, right? Note the italics. Did I miss something or did you? |
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Quoted: Wait a minute, you usually make more sense than this which makes me question myself. That's what I said in the original post, right? Note the italics. Did I miss something or did you?  .......... your original post. Quoted: ....... followed by ......... When teaching, I tend to alter the wording: Never let an unholstered handgun cover anything that you're not willing to destroy. Discuss. Quoted: ............ to which I respond ................................ but the muzzle on many IWB holsters and all horizontal rigs I've seen is exposed. Quoted: Once properly holstered in a proper holster it's considered safe. They don't go bang by themselves. So where is the confusion? |
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Since I wear business attire most of the time, I go with the shoulder rig.
I cover lots of folks unwittingly with the muzzle of my gun. However, as a true double action gun with a full trigger actuation firing pin safety, it would take an act of god for a round to fire in that position so I do not consider it to be a violation of Rule 2. Before there's any controversy, I feel exactly the same way about a properly holstered 1911 in condition 1. |
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The rule refers to a gun in hand. Not a gun in holster or case. +1 I've thought about this as well. I NEVER intentionally cover anyone with the muzzle of a weapon that my hand is touching. That INCLUDES firearms that are in holsters. For example, if I pick up a holstered handgun, I will not muzzle sweep anyone. However, if a weapon is holstered or in a case, and your hand is OFF of it, then I believe the rule doesn't apply. In spite of this, you should always AVOID if possible, even if the weapon is holstered or cased. There have been some good examples of all of this, but I have another one. If I have a weapon setting on a table that I just finished cleaning, and then someone decides to go stand in front of the muzzle (something that should be prudently avoided but is not a violation of the rule, IMO), and then I need to pick up that weapon, I will politely ask the individual to move before placing my hand on it, as doing so would mean that a weapon that my hand is touching is now pointing at something I am not willing to destroy. This is a real good analysis, I thought I was the only one who thought of all this.  It makes you wonder if someone really believes in the rules if they haven't (or else how is wearing a holster or carrying a cased firearm EVER safe?).
So, in sum, if you have a weapon that is cased or in a holster, and your hand is not touching it, while you should still avoid muzzle sweeps if possible, it is not a violation of the 2nd rule if the muzzle does cover something you are not willing to destroy. |
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When teaching, I tend to alter the wording: Never let an unholstered handgun cover anything that you're not willing to destroy. Discuss. How about "Never let an unholstered or uncased weapon, or even a holstered one that your hand is in contact with, cover anything that you're not willing to destroy. 
I would probably teach the four rules, and THEN go back and get more specific on this one. I think part of the four rules being simple is that the average dumbass or begginer can still be expected to have the attention span to process them. Perhaps the above is sort of implied in rule #2, and once someone has a real handle on the four rules (knows them by heart and in their sleep, AND has experience putting them to practice), then you can clarify this subtle point. |
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SGB, I'm not sure. We seem to be saying exactly the same thing, except you quoted Cooper and said it was right instead. You emphasized the muzzle. The muzzle of any horizontal rig you've ever been around is both exposed and covering everyone within range. That's what I was responding to. My right ass cheek is being pointed at by a muzzle right now.
I'm a big fan of leaving a time honored rule alone, but I've had trouble with this one in classes and among new shooters. When you tell a new shooter, "never let the muzzle cover anything you're not willing to destroy," then shove a pistol into an IWB, what message did you just send? It's a minor thing to slightly change your wording. Do you agree with the way I say it or not. If not, why? |
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..................... but the muzzle on many IWB holsters and all horizontal rigs I've seen is exposed. Once properly holstered in a proper holster it's considered safe. They don't go bang by themselves. I still don't like them pointing at people And, what about drawing and holstering? Doesn't it point at lots of things\people? Unless you put your back to a brick wall 
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Quoted:
Since I wear business attire most of the time, I go with the shoulder rig. I cover lots of folks unwittingly with the muzzle of my gun. However, as a true double action gun with a full trigger actuation firing pin safety, it would take an act of god for a round to fire in that position so I do not consider it to be a violation of Rule 2. Before there's any controversy, I feel exactly the same way about a properly holstered 1911 in condition 1. How about a Glock? It is in a holster, so the trigger is covered. In the Glock world the 'safety' is on. |
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Since I wear business attire most of the time, I go with the shoulder rig. I cover lots of folks unwittingly with the muzzle of my gun. However, as a true double action gun with a full trigger actuation firing pin safety, it would take an act of god for a round to fire in that position so I do not consider it to be a violation of Rule 2. Before there's any controversy, I feel exactly the same way about a properly holstered 1911 in condition 1. How about a Glock? It is in a holster, so the trigger is covered. In the Glock world the 'safety' is on. I don't want to get into the Glock issues, but no –– I would not carry a Glock in a shoulder rig. Mainly because of the danger inherent in reholstering. A number of Glock ND's every year are from the thumb break getting into the trigger guard with a 3.5 pound disconnector. If I still owned a Glock, I would not hesitate to carry it in a belt holster, as the danger from a holstering issue will kill just me and not a potential innocent. |
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I think this whole discussion is very good.
It is true that a lot of people have zero discipline when it comes to firearms safety. Partly because they are taught these four rules, then they see a guy wearing a shoulder holster or carrying a cased rifle, and somehow in the back of their mind they lose respect for the rules. Without more clarification, they don't see that the "exception" here is not the result of the rules being "general guidelines", but that instead the rules are the fucking commandments, and the "exception" is not really an exception but instead a subtle application of the more accurate explanation of the rule. When my son gets older, I am going to teach Him that there are 14 commandments. Ten of them were given to us by God through Moses, and Four of them were given to us from God by Dad. 1. I am the Lord your God. Thou shalt have no strange gods before Me. 2. You shall not take the name of the Lord your God in vain. 3. Remember to keep holy the Lord's Day. 4. Honor your father and mother. 5. You shall not murder. 6. You shall not commit adultery. 7. You shall not steal. 8. You shall not bear false witness against your neighbor. 9. You shall not covet your neighbor's wife. 10. You shall not covet your neighbor's goods. 1. Always treat every firearm as if it is loaded. 2. Never point an unholstered firearm, or ANY firearm your hand is in contact with, at anything you are not willing to destroy. 3. Keep your finger off the trigger until your sights are on target and you are ready to shoot. 4. Be sure of your target and what is behind it. eta: I don't mean any blaspheme here, this is in jest. But I do wish to make a point. In fact, when I get home, I am going to post the four rules of firearms safety right below the ten commandments. This shit is not a game, and it irritates me to no end when some people think they are too damn "good and manly" to follow the damn rules. |
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Do you agree with the way I say it or not. If not, why? No. Much confusion comes from the plethora of conflicting instruction/opinion and excessive definition being but forth as gospel. I agree that when handling firearms that the muzzle should never be pointed at anything you're not willing to see destroyed. I'm unsure at this point why you injected holsters into the equation. A properly holstered handgun is one that not being handled. Once holstered in a properly worn holster a handgun is considered safe. They don't go bang by themselves. However handling a holstered handgun is as dangerous as handling an unholstered handgun as it is the HANDLING of the firearm which causes the danger. The merits and safety value of different holsters is a separate discussion. Quoted:
Jeff Cooper, Lt. Col. USMC (ret). The Art of the Rifle
1. All guns are always loaded. 2. Never let the muzzle cover anything that you are not willing to destroy. 3. Keep your finger off the trigger until your sights are on the target. 4. Be sure of your target. If it ain't broke don't fix it. I leave Coopers rules simple, as Cooper proffered them. And those rules deal with the safe HANDLINGof firearms. |
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I'm unsure at this point why you injected holsters into the equation.
No, you're not. I've explained it multiple times and it should be obvious. Are you handling the gun while holstering? Of course you are. Holstering and unholstering are some of the very tenets of firearms handling. I happen to agree with you that most of the time, leaving a time honored aphorism alone is usually the best bet, but when you can fix it with a single word, I think I'll make that subtle, easy adjustment. Coop was slightly wrong on this one. To show there's no hard feelings, here's a pic of me and and The Man years ago. 
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Jeff Cooper, Lt. Col. USMC (ret). The Art of the Rifle
1. All guns are always loaded. 2. Never let the muzzle cover anything that you are not willing to destroy. 3. Keep your finger off the trigger until your sights are on the target. 4. Be sure of your target. If it ain't broke don't fix it. Jeff was right more often than not, but the muzzle on many IWB holsters and all horizontal rigs I've seen is exposed. Hypocrisy breeds contempt in new shooters. How do you explain it to them? I would tell them they are over thinking the issue and they are unqualified to think. It is very clear what is meant by rule #2. Over thinking rule #2 ends up making things more difficult than necessary |
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I would tell them they are over thinking the issue and they are unqualified to think.
Works fine with recruits. Counterproductive, however, with a shooter that you hammer the rules into, then they promptly watch you break them. It's a single word change. Too hard? |
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Once properly holstered in a proper holster it's considered safe. They don't go bang by themselves. I still don't like them pointing at people And, what about drawing and holstering? Doesn't it point at lots of things\people? Unless you put your back to a brick wall Safe as is almost everything a relative term. And as in many things there are different levels. A handgun carried for self defense is carried loaded and in a condition ready for immediate use. This makes the carried handgun less safe than the same handgun sitting at home unloaded in your gun vault. However a loaded handgun can be carried safely by insuring the use of a proper holster and following the rules of safe firearms handling. As a belt holster subjects colleges to less muzzle sweep of a holstered firearm than a horizontal shoulder holster both holsters properly worn are still considered safe even though the belt holster would be considered more safe than the shoulder holster. A strong side belt holster is more likely to allow for a safer linear presentation of a firearm to the target than a shoulder holster which requires the muzzle to sweep from weak side to strong side in presentation to the target. It's all a matter of degree. |
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Once properly holstered in a proper holster it's considered safe. They don't go bang by themselves. I still don't like them pointing at people And, what about drawing and holstering? Doesn't it point at lots of things\people? Unless you put your back to a brick wall Safe as is almost everything a relative term. And as in many things there are different levels. A handgun carried for self defense is carried loaded and in a condition ready for immediate use. This makes the carried handgun less safe than the same handgun sitting at home unloaded in your gun vault. However a loaded handgun can be carried safely by insuring the use of a proper holster and following the rules of safe firearms handling. As a belt holster subjects colleges to less muzzle sweep of a holstered firearm than a horizontal shoulder holster both holsters properly worn are still considered safe even though the belt holster would be considered more safe than the shoulder holster. A strong side belt holster is more likely to allow for a safer linear presentation of a firearm to the target than a shoulder holster which requires the muzzle to sweep from weak side to strong side in presentation to the target. It's all a matter of degree. Agree 100% with your response to 22bad's comments. In my opinion, a holstered, modern handgun in good repair is as safe as teddy bears. That's the reason that I state Rule 2 the way I do. |
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It is very clear what is meant by rule #2. Over thinking rule #2 ends up making things more difficult than necessary Bingo. Teaching is a progression. Start with the basic tenants and expand as the student is able to grasp and comprehend. Again, teaching and then immediately breaking your own rule is harmful to the sport/discipline. Simply say unholstered. This ain't hard. |
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Quoted: In my opinion, a holstered, modern handgun in good repair is as safe as teddy bears. That's the reason that I state Rule 2 the way I do. And if your Rule 2 is unclear here how is it being absorbed by your noobs? Quoted: Again, teaching and then immediately breaking your own rule is harmful to the sport/discipline. Simply say unholstered. This ain't hard. ........................ who said anything about breaking your own rule? Evidently you know what you are talking about but I must be too stupid to understand. |
.......... while I flirted with them in my younger days I'm not a fan of shoulder holsters either.
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Cooper's rules concerned safe gun HANDLING.
A holstered handgun isn't being handled. I really think you're comparing apples to oranges here. I agree that a gun being HANDLED should never be pointed at anything you don't want to shoot, and I agree that a HOLSTERED handgun is, given a proper holster, safe to point at whatever's beyond the hoslter it's in. I see no contradiction in the two concepts. YMMV - and by the way, I love the double-1911 rig you posted a pic of the other day. |
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In my opinion, a holstered, modern handgun in good repair is as safe as teddy bears. That's the reason that I state Rule 2 the way I do. And if your Rule 2 is unclear here how is it being absorbed by your noobs? It is clear. I make sure to clarify UNHOLSTERED. "Never let an unholstered..." That's the point. I even italicized it so it couldn't be missed...see my first post. Again. I'm not sure of the disconnect here. |
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Cooper's rules concerned safe gun HANDLING. A holstered handgun isn't being handled. I really think you're comparing apples to oranges here. I agree that a gun being HANDLED should never be pointed at anything you don't want to shoot, and I agree that a HOLSTERED handgun is, given a proper holster, safe to point at whatever's beyond the hoslter it's in. I see no contradiction in the two concepts. YMMV - and by the way, I love the double-1911 rig you posted a pic of the other day. Thanks...I love that kind of goofiness. Note above though. Holstering and unholstering are a critical part of gun handling. Saying "unholstered" helps to alleviate that slightly sticky point of rule 2. We're all trying to do the right thing here...I just believe a simple word insertion saves a lot of BS. |
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[hijack]
I've always had more of a problem with the usual phrasing of #1. "If my gun is always loaded, how am I supposed to clean it?" I've always stressed a triple check of an unloaded firearm every time you pick it up for "non-loaded" usage. It's kinda funny listening to a group of guys pulling a slide twice every few minutes. [/hijack] Good topic. |
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When teaching, I tend to alter the wording: Never let an unholstered handgun cover anything that you're not willing to destroy. Discuss. it has to be in the hand to be "pointing" or "covering" Guns, being inanimate do not point or cover on their own. The need to be interacted with. It is not until it is in the hand that it is being interacted with. The rule works perfect as written. |
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When teaching, I tend to alter the wording: Never let an unholstered handgun cover anything that you're not willing to destroy. Discuss. it has to be in the hand to be "pointing" or "covering" Guns, being inanimate do not point or cover on their own. The need to be interacted with. It is not until it is in the hand that it is being interacted with. The rule works perfect as written. I like it when they comment without reading the thread. Ever holstered a gun? In an IWB perhaps? Thought you might've. Thanks for posting, though. |
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Once properly holstered in a proper holster it's considered safe. They don't go bang by themselves. I still don't like them pointing at people And, what about drawing and holstering? Doesn't it point at lots of things\people? Unless you put your back to a brick wall Safe as is almost everything a relative term. And as in many things there are different levels. A handgun carried for self defense is carried loaded and in a condition ready for immediate use. This makes the carried handgun less safe than the same handgun sitting at home unloaded in your gun vault. However a loaded handgun can be carried safely by insuring the use of a proper holster and following the rules of safe firearms handling. As a belt holster subjects colleges to less muzzle sweep of a holstered firearm than a horizontal shoulder holster both holsters properly worn are still considered safe even though the belt holster would be considered more safe than the shoulder holster. A strong side belt holster is more likely to allow for a safer linear presentation of a firearm to the target than a shoulder holster which requires the muzzle to sweep from weak side to strong side in presentation to the target. It's all a matter of degree. Agree 100% with your response to 22bad's comments. In my opinion, a holstered, modern handgun in good repair is as safe as teddy bears. That's the reason that I state Rule 2 the way I do. Yeah, except I was ONLY referring to the horizontal holsters on general principle I don't like them pointing at people behind me but, I was only(attempting)to address drawing and holstering of horizontal rigs unless you specifically draw towards the ground and then come up on your target you will sweep everyone and everything on the side you are drawing your weapon from also when you holster your weapon(unless you have your back to a brick wall)you are most likely UNAWARE of your backstop.....at a time when NDs are more likely to occur I'm planning on getting a vertical rig
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[hijack] I've always had more of a problem with the usual phrasing of #1. "If my gun is always loaded, how am I supposed to clean it?" I've always stressed a triple check of an unloaded firearm every time you pick it up for "non-loaded" usage. It's kinda funny listening to a group of guys pulling a slide twice every few minutes. [/hijack] You are able to clean it because you took it apart. A disassembled gun is no longer a gun. The rule is also perfect because it speaks to a mindset not a reality. The mindset is one of, the gun must always be handled in ONE manor, like the gun is dangerous; not two methods one for dangerous guns and one for safe guns. This rule is also perfect as originally stated. Good topic. |
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Cooper's rules concerned safe gun HANDLING. A holstered handgun isn't being handled. I really think you're comparing apples to oranges here. I agree that a gun being HANDLED should never be pointed at anything you don't want to shoot, and I agree that a HOLSTERED handgun is, given a proper holster, safe to point at whatever's beyond the hoslter it's in. I see no contradiction in the two concepts. YMMV - and by the way, I love the double-1911 rig you posted a pic of the other day. Thanks...I love that kind of goofiness. Note above though. Holstering and unholstering are a critical part of gun handling. Saying "unholstered" helps to alleviate that slightly sticky point of rule 2. We're all trying to do the right thing here...I just believe a simple word insertion saves a lot of BS. I'd have no problem sitting under your instruction regarding rule 2. I certainly understand your point. Either way you word it, there's still an issue with where the gunis pointed as you draw from the holster - either you're going to sweep your own thigh, or you're going to sweep everything from 6 o'clock to your target (in the case of a shoulder holster, which I don't use). Once in a blue moon I'll be at the beach or on a boat and carry my 442 in thunderwear. This thread is a good reminder to be careful on the draw. 
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[hijack] I've always had more of a problem with the usual phrasing of #1. "If my gun is always loaded, how am I supposed to clean it?" I've always stressed a triple check of an unloaded firearm every time you pick it up for "non-loaded" usage. It's kinda funny listening to a group of guys pulling a slide twice every few minutes. [/hijack] You are able to clean it because you took it apart. A disassembled gun is no longer a gun. The rule is also perfect because it speaks to a mindset not a reality. The mindset is one of, the gun must always be handled in ONE manor, like the gun is dangerous; not two methods one for dangerous guns and one for safe guns. This rule is also perfect as originally stated. Good topic. I would propose that achieving status of "disassembled gun" requires breaking rules in most cases. ETA: In a Glock's case, the first 3. Your quote-fu is weak! 
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