[ARCHIVED THREAD] - SIGUSA responds. (Page 6 of 8)
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Quoted: You don't understand how the P320 works. There you go again, making shit up, thinking you know it all, and know me and my experience. I’ve done a few complete tear downs of the 320/M17 FCUs, strikers. I’ve built ARs and various other pistols since the 80’s AND, my civilian job is also at a three star command working directly with engineers and physicists designing future weapon systems whose “tolerances” is measured in microns. Oh, BTW, I’m about to join a buddy in his new aerospace manufacturing company and his 07SOT side hustle reproducing a particular, high end classic rifle. OP, you’re emotionally involved. All I’ll give you is any firearm with worn, or out of spec parts can fail. I spent most of my time in in LE as a Detective in a major metro area, putting people in prison; I haven’t seen a complete dig in a single case. Lawyers and juries are a joke. I’ve yet to see engineering evidence, beyond a shadow of doubt, and complete, detailed investigation from a trusted/third party source that looks at the shooter, the holster and gun in every detail. I’m keeping an open mind, I’m waiting. Seriously OP, telling a stranger on the internet, me, or anybody, they don’t know the 320, or anything else for that matter, shows you’re emotional, biased (congratulating posters here who switch back to Glock), and possibly hinged like a democrat activist. Present solid, factual, highly detailed evidence in a logical manner that leads to a valid conclusion. |
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Quoted: That was the removal of all the black parts with the switch to nickel. Glocks are not firing in holsters. Never have. Yes they most certainly did. I've posted this story before. Newport, Kentucky, Police Department 1992. I was one of our instructors and armorers and personally conducted the 24 hour transitional training program for all of our full-time officers. We had Gen 2 G19s in Safariland Model 070 level 3 retention holsters. One of our officers pulled into the parking lot at the station, set a cup of coffee on the dashboard and then picked his clipboard up off of the passenger seat. Then, as he reached forward to get his coffee, his pistol discharged while fully secured in its holster. I was there that day. Both snaps on the holster were still secured. The officer had powder burns on his pants. There was a hole in the seat of the cruiser, and another hole in the floorboard. The slide was ever so slightly out of battery. We contacted Glock immediately and they had a representative at our department the next day with "upgrade" parts for our pistols. I love my Glock pistols and have owned a Glock since June 1987 and have completed faith in them. My every day carry gun is a G48 MOS. But yeah, Glocks did go off while fully secured in holsters. There was just no internet/social media/YouTube to remember it. I wish I'd taken multiples of Polaroids so I could have kept a set of pictures. All that said, the P320 has a problem and Sig is retarded. |
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Quoted: The Army alone has way more than 100 incidents. Thousands. The problem is, they go up through the Army chain ultimately ending up with the manufacturer. Who would complain about it to the public? The people they happen to (in the Army) are just glad it doesn't end their career. Quoted: The Army alone has way more than 100 incidents. Thousands. The problem is, they go up through the Army chain ultimately ending up with the manufacturer. Who would complain about it to the public? The people they happen to (in the Army) are just glad it doesn't end their career. Citation needed on the Army alone having thousands of incidents. When NHPR FOIAd the the military the Army, Air Force, and Marine Corps together reported a total of 9 accidental or negligent discharges with M17 or M18 pistols between September 202 and June 2023, and some of those were obviously negligent users and not the pistol. Quoted: And I would say you are looking at it emotionally. Because if you look at it logically, it doesn’t make sense. Mechanical things, especially those as simple as a firearms, don’t just fail once and never again. If there is a “tolerance stacking” or broken part, the failure will be easily replicable. The conditions can be recreated and the same result will occur. Nobody can replicate it without touching the trigger. The drop issue was a real mechanical/design issue. It was replicable for each pistol that would do it and across most (all?) examples. People have recently demonstrated that sear movement without a trigger pull will cause the striker block to fail to function on some P320s. That's a big step towards replicating the problem; enough so that it's probably irresponsible to keep using a P320 voluntarily. |
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Quoted: I wouldn't count the NYPD guns as im pretty sure that was a result of the NY trigger. Rear frame rail breaking, I'd consider that a simple QC issue. Even if glock made pure shit for all 5 generations, and had a million VUP's, it wouldn't matter. Glocks aren't the topic. Glocks aren't going pop in holsters without pulling the trigger. Glock isn't calling me an anti gunner. Glock isn't taking grifting shills to mock people who have serious issues with the safety of the striker fired handgun equivalent of a 1911 with the safety off and the grip safety taped down. That is quite clearly a design issue. |
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Quoted: There you go again, making shit up, thinking you know it all, and know me and my experience. I’ve done a few complete tear downs of the 320/M17 FCUs, strikers. I’ve built ARs and various other pistols since the 80’s AND, my civilian job is also at a three star command working directly with engineers and physicists designing future weapon systems whose “tolerances” is measured in microns. Oh, BTW, I’m about to join a buddy in his new aerospace manufacturing company and his 07SOT side hustle reproducing a particular, high end classic rifle. OP, you’re emotionally involved. All I’ll give you is any firearm with worn, or out of spec parts can fail. I spent most of my time in in LE as a Detective in a major metro area, putting people in prison; I haven’t seen a complete dig in a single case. Lawyers and juries are a joke. I’ve yet to see engineering evidence, beyond a shadow of doubt, and complete, detailed investigation from a trusted/third party source that looks at the shooter, the holster and gun in every detail. I’m keeping an open mind, I’m waiting. Seriously OP, telling a stranger on the internet, me, or anybody, they don’t know the 320, or anything else for that matter, shows you’re emotional, biased (congratulating posters here who switch back to Glock), and possibly hinged like a democrat activist. Present solid, factual, highly detailed evidence in a logical manner that leads to a valid conclusion. The one thing I have learned in life is when people spout off their creds.... Me I'm just a simple cabinet maker. But I have a message to warn people and I'm delivering that message. Don't like it don't click my threads. It's just self control. It's pretty easy to do. |
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Quoted: Yes they most certainly did. I've posted this story before. Newport, Kentucky, Police Department 1992. I was one of our instructors and armorers and personally conducted the 24 hour transitional training program for all of our full-time officers. We had Gen 2 G19s in Safariland Model 070 level 3 retention holsters. One of our officers pulled into the parking lot at the station, set a cup of coffee on the dashboard and then picked his clipboard up off of the passenger seat. Then, as he reached forward to get his coffee, his pistol discharged while fully secured in its holster. I was there that day. Both snaps on the holster were still secured. The officer had powder burns on his pants. There was a hole in the seat of the cruiser, and another hole in the floorboard. The slide was ever so slightly out of battery. We contacted Glock immediately and they had a representative at our department the next day with "upgrade" parts for our pistols. I love my Glock pistols and have owned a Glock since June 1987 and have completed faith in them. My every day carry gun is a G48 MOS. But yeah, Glocks did go off while fully secured in holsters. There was just no internet/social media/YouTube to remember it. I wish I'd taken multiples of Polaroids so I could have kept a set of pictures. All that said, the P320 has a problem and Sig is retarded. Correct in the past 30 years ago. That is what lead Glock to upgrade to the nickel parts. They did not gaslight anyone. They just fixed it. They still carry Glocks in 9mm. |
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Quoted: There you go again, making shit up, thinking you know it all, and know me and my experience. I’ve done a few complete tear downs of the 320/M17 FCUs, strikers. I’ve built ARs and various other pistols since the 80’s AND, my civilian job is also at a three star command working directly with engineers and physicists designing future weapon systems whose “tolerances” is measured in microns. Oh, BTW, I’m about to join a buddy in his new aerospace manufacturing company and his 07SOT side hustle reproducing a particular, high end classic rifle. OP, you’re emotionally involved. All I’ll give you is any firearm with worn, or out of spec parts can fail. I spent most of my time in in LE as a Detective in a major metro area, putting people in prison; I haven’t seen a complete dig in a single case. Lawyers and juries are a joke. I’ve yet to see engineering evidence, beyond a shadow of doubt, and complete, detailed investigation from a trusted/third party source that looks at the shooter, the holster and gun in every detail. I’m keeping an open mind, I’m waiting. Seriously OP, telling a stranger on the internet, me, or anybody, they don’t know the 320, or anything else for that matter, shows you’re emotional, biased (congratulating posters here who switch back to Glock), and possibly hinged like a democrat activist. Present solid, factual, highly detailed evidence in a logical manner that leads to a valid conclusion. I am in the camp that the problem may be overstated, but considering these discharges in holsters seem to happen more with sigs is troubling. Its sorta like the Pitbull thing. yeah, most Pitbull's are fine, but if you here about an incident, you can sort of assume its probably going to be a pittbull and no be wrong. from test and evaluation standpoint we lack data, from a practical approach, why hasnt this occurred with glocks or maybe M&P's, HK's or FN's OR even 365's or 226's? Could this be overstated, sure, i am I going to pick up another sig, absolutley not, there are too many good polymer striker fired pistol options. |
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Quoted: There you go again, making shit up, thinking you know it all, and know me and my experience. I’ve done a few complete tear downs of the 320/M17 FCUs, strikers. I’ve built ARs and various other pistols since the 80’s AND, my civilian job is also at a three star command working directly with engineers and physicists designing future weapon systems whose “tolerances” is measured in microns. Oh, BTW, I’m about to join a buddy in his new aerospace manufacturing company and his 07SOT side hustle reproducing a particular, high end classic rifle. OP, you’re emotionally involved. All I’ll give you is any firearm with worn, or out of spec parts can fail. I spent most of my time in in LE as a Detective in a major metro area, putting people in prison; I haven’t seen a complete dig in a single case. Lawyers and juries are a joke. I’ve yet to see engineering evidence, beyond a shadow of doubt, and complete, detailed investigation from a trusted/third party source that looks at the shooter, the holster and gun in every detail. I’m keeping an open mind, I’m waiting. Seriously OP, telling a stranger on the internet, me, or anybody, they don’t know the 320, or anything else for that matter, shows you’re emotional, biased (congratulating posters here who switch back to Glock), and possibly hinged like a democrat activist. Present solid, factual, highly detailed evidence in a logical manner that leads to a valid conclusion. Which copypasta is this? You're going to be waiting awhile if you're wanting such specific parameters. What we do have: dozens if not hundreds of anecdotal stories of P320's going off. Dozens if not hundreds of departments switching from the P320 due to safety concerns. We were one of those departments. We called several police departments across the country and asked them why they banned the P320 and why they switched. Some had simple answers like "no reason not to" while another said "15 instances of the P320 going off in the holster, several of which were proven to be foreign objects getting into the holster like seatbelts, phone chargers, etc, but some of the instances did not include any evidence of another object being introduced into the holster." As an instructor, how can I not recommend we switch to a safer weapon system? I can't risk that kind of liability. |
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Quoted: Yes they most certainly did. I've posted this story before. Newport, Kentucky, Police Department 1992. I was one of our instructors and armorers and personally conducted the 24 hour transitional training program for all of our full-time officers. We had Gen 2 G19s in Safariland Model 070 level 3 retention holsters. One of our officers pulled into the parking lot at the station, set a cup of coffee on the dashboard and then picked his clipboard up off of the passenger seat. Then, as he reached forward to get his coffee, his pistol discharged while fully secured in its holster. I was there that day. Both snaps on the holster were still secured. The officer had powder burns on his pants. There was a hole in the seat of the cruiser, and another hole in the floorboard. The slide was ever so slightly out of battery. We contacted Glock immediately and they had a representative at our department the next day with "upgrade" parts for our pistols. I love my Glock pistols and have owned a Glock since June 1987 and have completed faith in them. My every day carry gun is a G48 MOS. But yeah, Glocks did go off while fully secured in holsters. There was just no internet/social media/YouTube to remember it. I wish I'd taken multiples of Polaroids so I could have kept a set of pictures. All that said, the P320 has a problem and Sig is retarded. Intersting... While shit happens, it seems like it was addressed as a critical failure and they went above and beyond to address the problem, and despite me moving away from glocks this past year, they are currently on gen 5 of their pistol and while it has shit ergonomics, its probably one of the most robust, reliable pistols on the market. Sig on the other hand has completely shit the bed. |
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Quoted:And one man is dead. https://www.thetrace.org/2024/12/sig-sauer-p320-safety-lawsuit-death/ Roman Neshin, 41, died October 1 in his Bucks County home after a bullet fired from his SIG Sauer P320 pistol pierced his groin and punctured his femoral artery, according to the lawsuit and an interview with his widow's attorney. Neighbors found him lying unresponsive in his basement hours later with an unused tourniquet in his lap and a cellphone by his side. The lawsuit indicates that plastic fragments were found in Neshin's wound, suggesting that the gun fired while at least partially seated in its holster. In an email to The Trace, SIG Sauer did not comment on the new lawsuit. The company said it provides "printed materials with every pistol with numerous warnings," and that the safety manual advises "against carrying a round in the chamber until ready to fire." Jurors concluded that SIG Sauer was liable for Abrahams's shooting because it had not designed the P320 with an external safety like that used on Glocks and other pistols. External safeties generally prevent a gun's trigger from moving backward when dropped, or when indirect pressure, like that from a holster, is applied. Neshin's death deepens the controversy embroiling SIG Sauer as its flagship handgun is tied to an increasing number of unintentional shooting injuries. On November 20, a Philadelphia jury awarded $11 million in damages to Army veteran George Abrahams, who suffered a gunshot wound to his leg while descending a staircase at his home with a P320 zipped into his pants pocket. "The Trace" is a bloomberg-owned site dedicated to "Reporting on Guns and Gun Violence in America", so I'd source from elsewhere. |
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Quoted: People have recently demonstrated that sear movement without a trigger pull will cause the striker block to fail to function on some P320s. That's a big step towards replicating the problem; enough so that it's probably irresponsible to keep using a P320 voluntarily. Quoted: Quoted: And I would say you are looking at it emotionally. Because if you look at it logically, it doesn’t make sense. Mechanical things, especially those as simple as a firearms, don’t just fail once and never again. If there is a “tolerance stacking” or broken part, the failure will be easily replicable. The conditions can be recreated and the same result will occur. Nobody can replicate it without touching the trigger. The drop issue was a real mechanical/design issue. It was replicable for each pistol that would do it and across most (all?) examples. People have recently demonstrated that sear movement without a trigger pull will cause the striker block to fail to function on some P320s. That's a big step towards replicating the problem; enough so that it's probably irresponsible to keep using a P320 voluntarily. THIS. ^^^ |
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Quoted: My local gun store sells the P320, but the guy behind the counter said they are not allowed in the concealed carry class. What is the most comparable handgun feature-wise to the P320 that is not manufactured by SIG USA? Unless modular grip frames are important to you, the P320 has no special features. It's a polymer striker gun like all the rest. Glock, HK, Walther, S&W, Canik, etc can all replace it without any downsides. If you really want modular frames, the most popular options are the Ruger RXM, the Springfield Echelon, and the Beretta APX. |
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Quoted: Also, don't be rough with it or you'll have to have a gunsmith look it over. https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/523928/1000004832_jpg-3539113.JPG |
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Quoted: A lot of bullshit and deflection in that PR piece. SIG guy says look new pistols, when they get out there and take off, the number of discharges and weapons handling mistakes will take off. It's normal. Bullshit. Glock has far more guns out there and if you look at them (Sig and Glock) in the same time frame, where are the discharges with the Glock? Glock has a metric shit ton more market exposure and saturation and by should be flooding the industry and the courts with tales of similar problems. But they aren't because what Sig is trying to say happens isn't happening with Glocks (or M and Ps) it's a Sig-centric problem. Sig p320 is becoming the 2020s version of the 1970s Ford Pinto. The only impact story I remember seeing was when some dude at Yeager's class threw a students glock on the ground and stomped it causing it to go off and shoot the tire on someone's truck. I can't remember what they said the reason it fired was but I know I had a safety plunger so gunked up after 8 months of matches 3 weekends a month that it would stick in the slide. I figure that's what caused the Tactical Response incident. So that's user error due to not properly maintaining the weapon. |
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Quoted: This would be a smart idea... of course then they admit there's a problem which probably wouldn't help them in court if someone files a class action??? Not a lawyer, but if Sig keeps fucking around, they may have enough potential plaintiffs to pursue a class action suit. Sig may very through their ineptitude create the commonality, adequacy of representation, numerosity and typicality to make such action manageable for the court that gets assigned where it is filed. |
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Quoted: Other pistols do fire in holsters, but because we're pretty sure those pistols are mechanically safe we don't see people blaming those on the pistol and are less likely to hear about them. There are very real concerns about the mechanical safety of the P320, so we do see people blaming the pistol. It also seems like it happens a lot more often with P320s, perhaps because they're not mechanically safe This incident involved either a Glock or an M&P. Quoted: Quoted: If its the holsters why aren't m&ps just going off? lots of departments use those with the same types of holsters. Other pistols do fire in holsters, but because we're pretty sure those pistols are mechanically safe we don't see people blaming those on the pistol and are less likely to hear about them. There are very real concerns about the mechanical safety of the P320, so we do see people blaming the pistol. It also seems like it happens a lot more often with P320s, perhaps because they're not mechanically safe This incident involved either a Glock or an M&P. |
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Quoted: Right off the bat the article says when her keys became wedged in the holster. How is that a Glock or M&P just magically going off in the holster? Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: If its the holsters why aren't m&ps just going off? lots of departments use those with the same types of holsters. Other pistols do fire in holsters, but because we're pretty sure those pistols are mechanically safe we don't see people blaming those on the pistol and are less likely to hear about them. There are very real concerns about the mechanical safety of the P320, so we do see people blaming the pistol. It also seems like it happens a lot more often with P320s, perhaps because they're not mechanically safe This incident involved either a Glock or an M&P. Did I say it was a Glock or M&P just magically going off in the holster? |
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Quoted: AI Summary: Design and Safety Improvements The P320 evolved from the P250 to meet growing demand for striker-fired polymer pistols, transitioning from a double-action hammer-fired design. Post-upgrade P320 features a narrower trigger with captive safety lever, reducing unintentional discharge risk compared to pre-upgrade model's thicker trigger and tab design. Upgraded P320 passed drop tests at 26 orientations and 1-foot higher drop height than pre-upgrade model's 6-7 orientations, demonstrating significant safety enhancements. Testing and Quality Control SIG's testing process is more stringent than military standards, with 3 million rounds fired annually for continuous product improvement. SIG's open-door policy allows full access to manufacturing and testing facilities, showcasing confidence in their stringent quality control. P320 undergoes extensive testing including hot/cold, mud/sand, and salt fog exposure, with commercial testing closely mirroring military specifications. Holster Design and Safety The Witness Mark holster features a design that blocks finger ingress into the trigger guard, reducing unintentional discharge risk. New Ballast holster closes the gap between holster and trigger guard, requiring physical force to insert objects and enhancing safety. Market Presence and Incidents With over 3.5 million P320s produced, unintentional discharge claims account for only 0.00001% of total units. P320's popularity among police departments increases the likelihood of reported incidents compared to less prevalent firearms. User Responsibility and Training Proper holster selection, clothing awareness, and a tactical glance before reholstering are crucial for safe firearm carry, especially with striker-fired guns. SIG's owner's manual suggests carrying with an empty chamber for new shooters as an extra safety option, accommodating various experience levels. SIG emphasizes the importance of using compatible gear and proper training to prevent issues, as many incidents result from improper handling or incompatible holsters. “Tactical glance” lol |
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Quoted: " From the April 1992 issue of Gun Tests: Glock Changes Firing Pins Glock Inc. executives claim there is no basis to the reports that all of the company's pistols are being formally recalled. Nevertheless, they say that, as of last Sep tem ber, they have instituted a running change in the design of the firing pin safety mechanism. All of the pistols that were assembled after the middle of October include the redesigned parts. The reports are apparently based on a pair of unintentional discharges experienced by a Suffolk County, New York, law-enforcement agency. Glock says one of the two pistols may have been altered outside of the factory. We understand, however, the department is steadfastly denying that claim. The second pistol was not examined by Glock." "Although the Firearms Training Section personnel immediately concluded that the officer had disobeyed Firearms Safety Rule #3 (and Glock Commandment #1: "off-target, off-trigger!"), the man was adamant that all safety procedures had been observed during the loading sequence, and that he was not going to go on duty without his Model 19 having been thoroughly checked. The Section Sergeant authorized an hour's overtime for one of the armorers to stay on station to inspect the Model 19. When the MOS arrived the armorer was so certain that the errant discharge had been "operator error," that when he test-fired the pistol, he didn't even go onto the range, choosing instead to step outside the range HQ building and perform an administrative arming of the Model 19. Reminding the officer of the "keep a straight finger" dictum, the armorer inserted a magazine, and racked the slide. The Glock discharged, sending a 124-grain +P JHP into the ground behind the building." Sure sounds like they did go off without pulling the trigger as well. |
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Quoted: All this is a Shark Week feeding frenzy with the sharks either stuck in a Groundhogs Day loop or they are the Department of Redundancy Department in each and every thread cross posted. So... is there any other positioning in this other than Fanboyz and Shills? You want to know what is missing??? Cold hard first person witnesses. Not I was on the firing line and it happened and only being present where "it actually happened" but it was fully witnessed (the gun was not touched or finger in the holster or a foreign item caused the ND). So far... the slomo video posted by the "SIG Shill" everyone seems to hate... actually showing the trigger finger in the holster ND, seems to be the one and only evidence in these ARFCOM threads. IF YOU ACTUALLY FULLY WITNESSED 1. a untouched Uncommanded Discharge of a holstered P320 (not caused by foreign object getting in the trigger guard) or 2. a ND caused by the "victim" Put up or shut up... or add something actually constructive!!! |
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Quoted: Which copypasta is this? You're going to be waiting awhile if you're wanting such specific parameters. What we do have: dozens if not hundreds of anecdotal stories of P320's going off. Dozens if not hundreds of departments switching from the P320 due to safety concerns. We were one of those departments. We called several police departments across the country and asked them why they banned the P320 and why they switched. Some had simple answers like "no reason not to" while another said "15 instances of the P320 going off in the holster, several of which were proven to be foreign objects getting into the holster like seatbelts, phone chargers, etc, but some of the instances did not include any evidence of another object being introduced into the holster." As an instructor, how can I not recommend we switch to a safer weapon system? I can't risk that kind of liability. |
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Quoted: Did I say it was a Glock or M&P just magically going off in the holster? Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: If its the holsters why aren't m&ps just going off? lots of departments use those with the same types of holsters. Other pistols do fire in holsters, but because we're pretty sure those pistols are mechanically safe we don't see people blaming those on the pistol and are less likely to hear about them. There are very real concerns about the mechanical safety of the P320, so we do see people blaming the pistol. It also seems like it happens a lot more often with P320s, perhaps because they're not mechanically safe This incident involved either a Glock or an M&P. Did I say it was a Glock or M&P just magically going off in the holster? |
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Quoted: Did you miss the video where the dudes gun went off on the line during a class when all guns were holstered? The people immediately to his left and right said he wasn't touching or fooling with the gun. You mean this video where they also said everybody’s guns were holstered? 
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Quoted: You implied it was the exact same thing that the P320 is doing. Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: If its the holsters why aren't m&ps just going off? lots of departments use those with the same types of holsters. Other pistols do fire in holsters, but because we're pretty sure those pistols are mechanically safe we don't see people blaming those on the pistol and are less likely to hear about them. There are very real concerns about the mechanical safety of the P320, so we do see people blaming the pistol. It also seems like it happens a lot more often with P320s, perhaps because they're not mechanically safe This incident involved either a Glock or an M&P. Did I say it was a Glock or M&P just magically going off in the holster? No, I didn't. Read better. |
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Quoted: And I would say you are looking at it emotionally. Because if you look at it logically, it doesn’t make sense. Mechanical things, especially those as simple as a firearms, don’t just fail once and never again. If there is a “tolerance stacking” or broken part, the failure will be easily replicable. The conditions can be recreated and the same result will occur. Nobody can replicate it without touching the trigger. The drop issue was a real mechanical/design issue. It was replicable for each pistol that would do it and across most (all?) examples. The issue may be repeatable but not necessarily easily repeatable. I am not in the firearms industry, I have worked on office equipment the last 32 years and I promise you, intermittent failures are a thing. Failures one day can be gone the next. Usually an intermittent issue gets worse with time and usage but not always. I was kinda where you are at first, but now that there is a test of the striker block safety that shows there is an issue, that it for me. I am convinced there is an issue and until it's fixed I have zero faith in the pistol. |
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It doesn't matter what your experience/credentials are or what evidence you demand. If there's smoke, there's fire. How hard is that to understand? We aren't seeing Glocks, M&Ps, PDPs, Echelons, RXMs, APXs or XDs going off in holsters like the P320 is. Hell, it's not even happening to the P365, which has maintained a stellar record of zero uncommanded discharges. You can't sit there and tell me that P320 users are somehow magically a gaggle of buffoons that relentlessly pursue putting a round through their thigh. Like someone else said earlier, it's pants-on-head retarded to voluntarily run a P320 in 2025. I don't see P320s in my AO because Razorback Barney is smart enough to know better. |
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Quoted: Citation needed on the Army alone having thousands of incidents. When NHPR FOIAd the the military the Army, Air Force, and Marine Corps together reported a total of 9 accidental or negligent discharges with M17 or M18 pistols between September 202 and June 2023, and some of those were obviously negligent users and not the pistol. People have recently demonstrated that sear movement without a trigger pull will cause the striker block to fail to function on some P320s. That's a big step towards replicating the problem; enough so that it's probably irresponsible to keep using a P320 voluntarily. Not technically correct. What is happening is that the trigger IS being moved to the rear...by the sear being pushed down, which moves the trigger bar and the trigger safety since Sig has linked them all together. The logic being that additional resistance from the springs on the safety lever and trigger bar will provide additional resistance to sear movement. In Sig's mind it's a feature not a bug. The problem is it renders the trigger safety lever LESS useful, as if the striker foot does walk off the sear somehow or the sear otherwise moves, the movement of all three parts (Sear, safety lever, and trigger bar) together will defeat the striker safety lever. It would still work in the event the striker foot broke off. All that said, it isn't necessarily a smoking gun, but it is smoke. The force required to move the sear is not negligible. IMO the next point of testing is under what kind of conditions might a sear move downward on its own, keeping in mind it is linked to the safety lever and trigger bar? It also means a trigger dingus and/or the manual safety, both of which block trigger or trigger bar movement, would also block movement of the sear and the safety lever. |
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Quoted: The issue may be repeatable but not necessarily easily repeatable. I am not in the firearms industry, I have worked on office equipment the last 32 years and I promise you, intermittent failures are a thing. Failures one day can be gone the next. Usually an intermittent issue gets worse with time and usage but not always. I was kinda where you are at first, but now that there is a test of the striker block safety that shows there is an issue, that it for me. I am convinced there is an issue and until it's fixed I have zero faith in the pistol. Quoted: Quoted: And I would say you are looking at it emotionally. Because if you look at it logically, it doesn’t make sense. Mechanical things, especially those as simple as a firearms, don’t just fail once and never again. If there is a “tolerance stacking” or broken part, the failure will be easily replicable. The conditions can be recreated and the same result will occur. Nobody can replicate it without touching the trigger. The drop issue was a real mechanical/design issue. It was replicable for each pistol that would do it and across most (all?) examples. The issue may be repeatable but not necessarily easily repeatable. I am not in the firearms industry, I have worked on office equipment the last 32 years and I promise you, intermittent failures are a thing. Failures one day can be gone the next. Usually an intermittent issue gets worse with time and usage but not always. I was kinda where you are at first, but now that there is a test of the striker block safety that shows there is an issue, that it for me. I am convinced there is an issue and until it's fixed I have zero faith in the pistol. I would think that every guy in this thread has either had a mechanic tell them they couldn't reproduce symptoms, or they ARE the mechanic that told someone they couldn't reproduce symptoms. These conversations happen every day. In this case, we are talking about an extremely low failure rate problem that requires two systems to fail simultaneously, and we only know why one of those two systems is failing. |
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Quoted: Not technically correct. What is happening is that the trigger IS being moved to the rear...by the sear being pushed down, which moves the trigger bar and the trigger safety since Sig has linked them all together. The logic being that additional resistance from the springs on the safety lever and trigger bar will provide additional resistance to sear movement. In Sig's mind it's a feature not a bug. The problem is it renders the trigger safety lever LESS useful, as if the striker foot does walk off the sear somehow or the sear otherwise moves, the movement of all three parts (Sear, safety lever, and trigger bar) together will defeat the striker safety lever. It would still work in the event the striker foot broke off. All that said, it isn't necessarily a smoking gun, but it is smoke. The force required to move the sear is not negligible. IMO the next point of testing is under what kind of conditions might a sear move downward on its own, keeping in mind it is linked to the safety lever and trigger bar? It also means a trigger dingus and/or the manual safety, both of which block trigger or trigger bar movement, would also block movement of the sear and the safety lever. Quoted: Quoted: Citation needed on the Army alone having thousands of incidents. When NHPR FOIAd the the military the Army, Air Force, and Marine Corps together reported a total of 9 accidental or negligent discharges with M17 or M18 pistols between September 202 and June 2023, and some of those were obviously negligent users and not the pistol. People have recently demonstrated that sear movement without a trigger pull will cause the striker block to fail to function on some P320s. That's a big step towards replicating the problem; enough so that it's probably irresponsible to keep using a P320 voluntarily. Not technically correct. What is happening is that the trigger IS being moved to the rear...by the sear being pushed down, which moves the trigger bar and the trigger safety since Sig has linked them all together. The logic being that additional resistance from the springs on the safety lever and trigger bar will provide additional resistance to sear movement. In Sig's mind it's a feature not a bug. The problem is it renders the trigger safety lever LESS useful, as if the striker foot does walk off the sear somehow or the sear otherwise moves, the movement of all three parts (Sear, safety lever, and trigger bar) together will defeat the striker safety lever. It would still work in the event the striker foot broke off. All that said, it isn't necessarily a smoking gun, but it is smoke. The force required to move the sear is not negligible. IMO the next point of testing is under what kind of conditions might a sear move downward on its own, keeping in mind it is linked to the safety lever and trigger bar? It also means a trigger dingus and/or the manual safety, both of which block trigger or trigger bar movement, would also block movement of the sear and the safety lever. I believe I said 'without a trigger pull', not 'without trigger movement'. |
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Quoted: I would think that every guy in this thread has either had a mechanic tell them they couldn't reproduce symptoms, or they ARE the mechanic that told someone they couldn't reproduce symptoms. These conversations happen every day. In this case, we are talking about an extremely low failure rate problem that requires two systems to fail simultaneously, and we only know why one of those two systems is failing. Agreed. And when this all started, I was in the, no way 2 separate systems are failing to cause it to fire. I figured it was something in the holster or incorrect holsters flexing enough against the trigger. Being that it's a completely precocked striker, I could see how under the correct circumstances the sear could let go of the striker. But the safety will catch it, right? Well, now we know some percentage of striker block safeties don't work all the time. |
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Quoted: All that said, it isn't necessarily a smoking gun, but it is smoke. The force required to move the sear is not negligible. IMO the next point of testing is under what kind of conditions might a sear move downward on its own, keeping in mind it is linked to the safety lever and trigger bar? The sear is in the frame/FCU. The striker is in the slide. It's a mass produced pistol. How large is the engagement surface between the two? How much do impacts or repeated torquing events change that engagement? |
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Quoted: Which copypasta is this? You're going to be waiting awhile if you're wanting such specific parameters. What we do have: dozens if not hundreds of anecdotal stories of P320's going off. Dozens if not hundreds of departments switching from the P320 due to safety concerns. We were one of those departments. We called several police departments across the country and asked them why they banned the P320 and why they switched. Some had simple answers like "no reason not to" while another said "15 instances of the P320 going off in the holster, several of which were proven to be foreign objects getting into the holster like seatbelts, phone chargers, etc, but some of the instances did not include any evidence of another object being introduced into the holster." As an instructor, how can I not recommend we switch to a safer weapon system? I can't risk that kind of liability. Quoted: Quoted: There you go again, making shit up, thinking you know it all, and know me and my experience. I’ve done a few complete tear downs of the 320/M17 FCUs, strikers. I’ve built ARs and various other pistols since the 80’s AND, my civilian job is also at a three star command working directly with engineers and physicists designing future weapon systems whose “tolerances” is measured in microns. Oh, BTW, I’m about to join a buddy in his new aerospace manufacturing company and his 07SOT side hustle reproducing a particular, high end classic rifle. OP, you’re emotionally involved. All I’ll give you is any firearm with worn, or out of spec parts can fail. I spent most of my time in in LE as a Detective in a major metro area, putting people in prison; I haven’t seen a complete dig in a single case. Lawyers and juries are a joke. I’ve yet to see engineering evidence, beyond a shadow of doubt, and complete, detailed investigation from a trusted/third party source that looks at the shooter, the holster and gun in every detail. I’m keeping an open mind, I’m waiting. Seriously OP, telling a stranger on the internet, me, or anybody, they don’t know the 320, or anything else for that matter, shows you’re emotional, biased (congratulating posters here who switch back to Glock), and possibly hinged like a democrat activist. Present solid, factual, highly detailed evidence in a logical manner that leads to a valid conclusion. Which copypasta is this? You're going to be waiting awhile if you're wanting such specific parameters. What we do have: dozens if not hundreds of anecdotal stories of P320's going off. Dozens if not hundreds of departments switching from the P320 due to safety concerns. We were one of those departments. We called several police departments across the country and asked them why they banned the P320 and why they switched. Some had simple answers like "no reason not to" while another said "15 instances of the P320 going off in the holster, several of which were proven to be foreign objects getting into the holster like seatbelts, phone chargers, etc, but some of the instances did not include any evidence of another object being introduced into the holster." As an instructor, how can I not recommend we switch to a safer weapon system? I can't risk that kind of liability. Oklahoma City PD ditched the P320 for the HK VP9 Oklahoma Highway Patrol is ditching the P320 as well |
| Sig keeps making P365 based guns bigger and bugger. I think they could ramp up P365 offerings and ramp down P320 ones and eventually phase out the civilian P320 all together. Most people wouldn't notice and in a couple of years people would largely forget the P320z |