[ARCHIVED THREAD] - Savage 340 Problem (Page 1 of 2)
Posted: 11/16/2009 9:38:49 AM EDT
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Hopefully someone here knows what problem I'm having with my new Savage.
I picked up a Savage 340E in .30-30 in a private sale. It has seen some use, but the bore & crown are great. The problem is the bolt is VERY stiff opening & closing. I mean nearly as bad as a Mosin Nagant with "Sticky Bolt Syndrome". The previous owner told me about it up front, and he even had his gunsmith check it out. The gunsmith told him it would loosen up with firing. He told he put 500 rounds of .30-30 through it, and it did loosen up a bit. That said, I can't believe something isn't wrong. The force needed to open & close the bolt is just outrageous. I took down the bolt, and saw nothing out of the ordinary. I then soaked the bolt in 3-In-1 oil all night, and there was no real improvement. I also couldn't see anything that would be causing it to stick in the chamber either. Does anyone know what could be causing it? The only plausible thing I heard is this: "The 340 was the first Savage rifle to use the barrel nut to set headspace IIRC. Is it possible that the barrel is screwed too far into the receiver and the bolt has to cam up against the breech of the gun?". The only thing is the previous owner saw no signs of bad headspace as he put so many rounds through it. Its only a $120 rifle, so i don't want to sink a whole lot of money into it. That said, I would like to fix it because its a handy little rifle. |
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I have three of the guns, two in .30-30 and one in .222, and none exhibit any of the problems you are describing.
Based on your description, it sound like the locking lug on the bolt is binding in the receiver. Can you rotate the lug with the bolt out of the gun? If so, is it still as stiff as when in the rifle? Also, and this is a shot in the dark, look at the writing on the barrel. Does it appear just above the stock or does it seem out of place? Reason I ask, its *possible* (though unlikely) that soemone screwed around with removing the barrel, and simply threaded it back on too far (which would cause some binding). Also, take the bolt out of the receiver. With it in your hand, notice the black piece that sits atop the bolt. Its about 3.5" long and 1/2" wide, and is attached to the bolt via two rings. This piece stays in the top position in the receiver when bolt is unlocked and closed, and should rotate easily in your hand in either direction (as long as you depress the metal tab at the front). I know this may sound confusing, but I can take a few pics and show you what I mean. Anyway, if this tab is not engaged, it can make it very difficult to close the bolt. If you have any questions, IM me and you can give me a call. |
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First off, where is the most force needed? All thru the bolt cycle or just upon closing? Any wear marks on the bolt body? Is the receiver bridge out of round or is the bolt body bent? The force is right when you turn the bolt to open or close the action. Its fairly smooth when riding in the rails, and only exhibits this as soon as the bolt is locked & you start to work the action. I don't think the receiver bridge is out of round, and the bolt handle is bent back towards the stock slightly. |
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Does it cock on opening the bolt
These guns cock on opening... Also, and I meant to add this in the previous thread, you may want to try removing the firing pin and trying it. You'll have to pull backwards on the cocking shroud and simply rotate out (I believe). |
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Quoted: Does it cock on opening the bolt These guns cock on opening... Tag because I just picked up a Savage 10FP in .223. First Savage and I love it. Jason - I read your post above and it made perfect sense to me. When I picked up this rifle this past weekend I took it all apart to play around and see how it all went together. I knew exactly what you were talking about. |
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Quoted:
I have three of the guns, two in .30-30 and one in .222, and none exhibit any of the problems you are describing. Based on your description, it sound like the locking lug on the bolt is binding in the receiver. Can you rotate the lug with the bolt out of the gun? If so, is it still as stiff as when in the rifle? Also, and this is a shot in the dark, look at the writing on the barrel. Does it appear just above the stock or does it seem out of place? Reason I ask, its *possible* (though unlikely) that soemone screwed around with removing the barrel, and simply threaded it back on too far (which would cause some binding). Also, take the bolt out of the receiver. With it in your hand, notice the black piece that sits atop the bolt. Its about 3.5" long and 1/2" wide, and is attached to the bolt via two rings. This piece stays in the top position in the receiver when bolt is unlocked and closed, and should rotate easily in your hand in either direction (as long as you depress the metal tab at the front). I know this may sound confusing, but I can take a few pics and show you what I mean. Anyway, if this tab is not engaged, it can make it very difficult to close the bolt. If you have any questions, IM me and you can give me a call. * I can't rotate the lug with the bolt removed, I can only cock it. *The barrel nut does have a couple of gouges, but I think these were caused by normal wear & tear since its only on the top of the nut. * The gas key (black thing according to the diagram) does move freely. The little tap did stay up at all times as the spring inside had fell down. I put the spring up, and reinstalled it so the tab was under spring tension. It did help make the bolt a little easier to work, but its still hard to operate. |
| Closely examine the lug (front and rear portions) and the bolt, as they both serve to assist with lock up. Now, the front lug is your primary locking device, but the bolt does serve as a backup (backup lug if you will). It should clear the rear notch on the receiver and not bind. Check both, and look for any abnormal wear. You can also try degreasing the front lug and getting it as clean as possible, and then marking it with a black magic marker. As soon as its marked, insert it in the receiver and close it once, remove it, and see where the most wear is. |
| You may try this as well. This would be easier with the action out of the stock, but take the magazine out and look into the recess for the bolt lug. You should me able to fit a finger in there and feel the recess, and tell if something is in there hat is out of the ordinary (rough spot, gouge, etc). |
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Most of the wear was on the right side of the locking lug behind the extractor, and the was some on the left side of the actual lug.
Also looking very well, the locking lug has some wear on the right side. The left edge is fairly square while the right edge has more of a curved edge. |
| I really don't know what to say, as these issues are hard to diagnose over the internet. It really sounds like the lug is binding in the recess, but you have to be very careful when trying to fix these issues as you can affect headspacing. Is there any wear on the rear of the lug (nearest the gas key or whatever it is called)? |
| Man, I really wish I could get my hands on this gun as it sounds like a fairly straightforward problem. Now, you can try one more thing, which will pretty much definitively determine whether it is the lug. Of course, this will be a PITA, but worth a try. Disassemble the bolt, meaning pull the cocking shroud and firing pin, as well as the gas key (which is the PITA), and see how it works. |
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Does it have a scope mounted? Check for screws too long
You know, I thought about this but didn't post because it seems too obvious. Then again, it is a possibility it could be missed. Then again, these guns use side mounts on the receiver, so a screw protruding too far should the first thing you notice. |
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Quoted: Does it have a scope mounted? Check for screws too long You know, I thought about this but didn't post because it seems too obvious. Then again, it is a possibility it could be missed. Then again, these guns use side mounts on the receiver, so a screw protruding too far should the first thing you notice. I know. I have a few.  |
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I know. I have a few
They are really interesting guns, but somewhat fickle at times. The mags can be aggravating from time to time, but they are typically fairly accurate. I lucked into a pre serial number model a couple years ago, which was made before they even started tapping them for side mount scopes. I've been looking for a rear peep, and actually bid on one on eBay (but it sold for more than I was willing to part with). |
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Quoted: I took out all the dummy screws for the scope mount and it made no difference. Ok, so that wasn't it. Well, if it is stiff without any round in the chamber, it is not headspace. Is this a newer model with a spring loaded plunger ejector? Older models have a receiver-mounted spring loaded arm fixed ejector. This may be causing resistance. Cannot tell from the pictures. Extractor drag? When you are stripping a round off the mag, does the rim snap into the bolt face? This is controlled feed, the extractor could drag. Later models used a push feed, snap-over extractor. If not, sounds like there may be a foreign object (primer?) in the lug recesses in the receiver. |
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It has a ejector on the left side of the receiver that is spring loaded.
I don't know about shooting it as I just got it the other day, and I haven't picked up some .30-30 yet. I also haven't see anything hidden in the receiver. My wife is replying for me every now and then because I'm cooking dinner while she works on the laptop, so it may take a bit before I can reply back. 
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I took out all the dummy screws for the scope mount and it made no difference. Ok, so that wasn't it. Well, if it is stiff without any round in the chamber, it is not headspace. Is this a newer model with a spring loaded plunger ejector? Older models have a receiver-mounted spring loaded arm fixed ejector. This may be causing resistance. Cannot tell from the pictures. Extractor drag? When you are stripping a round off the mag, does the rim snap into the bolt face? This is controlled feed, the extractor could drag. Later models used a push feed, snap-over extractor. If not, sounds like there may be a foreign object (primer?) in the lug recesses in the receiver. |
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That is control-feed. The rim is pushed into the bolt face by magazine pressure. The thing in the receiver is the ejector. It should move freely to flush with the ID of the receiver at that part. You might have issues with the extractors. There is a plunger and spring under there, BE CAREFUL with disassembly as they like to fly. Try the bolt without the extractors. Since you have not tried it will ammo, the rim MIGHT force the extractors out, making for easy chambering. |
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Quoted: Ok, I was able to pry the extractor off the bolt. I put the bolt back into the barreled action, and it didn't really to see to make that much of a difference. Should I try to take out the ejector assembly now? If you want. I'm still going on that hidden piece of junk in the locking lug recess. I would degrease the bolt, then cover it in Sharpie marker ink, looking for the areas that are binding after trying the action. Since it is a single lug bolt, the cantilever action COULD cause the bolt to bend but that would take a lot of stress. This is why the action was never chambered in anything really hot. .223 Rem was pushing it. |
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Ok, I was able to pry the extractor off the bolt. I put the bolt back into the barreled action, and it didn't really to see to make that much of a difference. Should I try to take out the ejector assembly now? If you want. I'm still going on that hidden piece of junk in the locking lug recess. Let me go get my LED lights, and I'll check again. The previous owner emailed me back tonight, and told me none of the fired brass he had leftover showed any issues with headspace FWIW. |
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You might have issues with the extractors. There is a plunger and spring under there, BE CAREFUL with disassembly as they like to fly. Try the bolt without the extractors.
Keith, I'm not sure they all have a plunger/spring assembly. I just took one of mine off, and the extractor is just a collar that pops into the recess directly behind the lug. |
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Quoted: I am not familiar with the .30-30 WCF chambering. .22 Hornet was the first along with .30-30. .222 Rem later and then .223 Rem, IIRC.You might have issues with the extractors. There is a plunger and spring under there, BE CAREFUL with disassembly as they like to fly. Try the bolt without the extractors. Keith, I'm not sure they all have a plunger/spring assembly. I just took one of mine off, and the extractor is just a collar that pops into the recess directly behind the lug. I know the .222 Rem has a plunger ejector. |
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Quoted: Quoted: You could try to re-headspace it. If you reload just work up a dummy round and have at it. That's what I thought as well. Perhaps someone messed with the barrel nut or something. Most had barrel sights so retiming it is relatively easy. Since this is control-feed and a rimmed cartridge, headspacing isn't too critical. |
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That's what I thought as well. Perhaps someone messed with the barrel nut or something.
Unlikely, simply because the problem exists while the gun is unloaded. Now, it is possible that the barrel was set back too far by someone tinkering with the gun, causing the bolt face to come into contact with the barrel. However, usually you will see the writing on the barrel will be indexed incorrectly. |
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That's what I thought as well. Perhaps someone messed with the barrel nut or something.
Unlikely, simply because the problem exists while the gun is unloaded. Now, it is possible that the barrel was set back too far by someone tinkering with the gun, causing the bolt face to come into contact with the barrel. However, usually you will see the writing on the barrel will be indexed incorrectly. I got my LED light, took off the magazine retainer spring to get inside the chamber area, and I can't find anything inside the bolt could be catching on. I'm going to soak some CLP in it for a minute to check again. Jason, are you talking about the cailber markings on barrel? It is marked "Proof Tested Cal 30-30". Also this is a pre-68 rifle as there is no serial number or receiver markings. |
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Jason, are you talking about the cailber markings on barrel? It is marked "Proof Tested Cal 30-30". Also this is a pre-68 rifle as there is no serial number or receiver markings
Yes. Looking at my pre-68, ".30-30 caliber" should be directly atop the forearm on the barrel. I still think this is highly unlikely, though, as it would also place the rear sight out of position (unless its one or more turns in too far). In fact, now that I think about it, this is virtually impossible because if the barrel was threaded in far enough to contact the bolt face, then you would not be able to chamber a round. |
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Man, that thing needs some oil and some 0000 steel wool!
It really has to be the lug binding in the receiver notch, at least based on my understanding of the issue. Did the individual you got it from state it had always been like this? I haven't gotten to remove the rust....... yet. I'm thinking about maybe a new spray-on finish if I don't kick the thing across the room. Yes, the previous owner said its always been like this even after he put 500 rounds through it. He did take it to a gunsmith who couldn't find anything that could be causing the bolt hard to operate. So, what are my options to fix it assuming it is the lug binding? |
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He did take it to a gunsmith who couldn't find anything that could be causing the bolt hard to operate.
Then that guy was no real gunsmith. So, what are my options to fix it assuming it is the lug binding
Well, you have to find out exactly where it is binding. You can try polishing the lug with a Dremel tool and felt wheel, just to see what happens. I can't remember, but have you tried it without the firing pin in the gun? |
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So, what are my options to fix it assuming it is the lug binding
Well, you have to find out exactly where it is binding. You can try polishing the lug with a Dremel tool and felt wheel, just to see what happens. I can't remember, but have you tried it without the firing pin in the gun? I haven't tried it without the pin, but when I reassembled the bolt I split the head of the bolthead retaining roll pin. If I take it down again, I have to order a spare pin to replace it since one end is FUBAR. If you don't mind, could you take a picture of where I should try the Dremel with the felt tool? I just want to make sure I'm on the same page before breaking out the Dremel. (At your own convenience of course). |