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Posted: 2/4/2021 2:03:56 PM EDT
[#1]
Quote HistoryQuoted: They aren't the same, the M240 is still a lot more durable and since most MGs are used mounted on vehicles the 6 pounds isn't that big a deal. The vehicle mounted guns and coaxs (240 and M2) should be consolided into the 338. 5.56 for infantry carbines 6.8 SAW/GPMG/DMR 338 or 40mm for Vehicles |
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Posted: 2/4/2021 3:01:14 PM EDT
[#2]
Quote HistoryQuoted: The vehicle mounted guns and coaxs (240 and M2) should be consolided into the 338. 5.56 for infantry carbines 6.8 SAW/GPMG/DMR 338 or 40mm for Vehicles I have reservations about a 6.8mm in the squad mostly due to weight. I have no reservations about using M855A1 for a DMR rifle. We can revisit that when the Army makes a program to train DMs to shoot farther than a free floated M4A1 can shoot. |
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Posted: 2/4/2021 3:29:27 PM EDT
[#3]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I have reservations about a 6.8mm in the squad mostly due to weight. I have no reservations about using M855A1 for a DMR rifle. We can revisit that when the Army makes a program to train DMs to shoot farther than a free floated M4A1 can shoot. 0 Both the belt feds are ligher than the SAW by a good margin. Being able to flex the SAW into a proper machine gun based on mission is a huge win for flexibility.Ultimately, for a proper dismounted patrol, everyone is carrying additional belted 556 or 762, total number of rounds on belt may stay the same, but every beltfed will use the same ammo in the platoon. Ive always thought that program has about a 10% chance of buying rifles but a large chance of replacing both the 249 and 240 in dismounted roles. I have no issue with A1 as a DMR round, but we are buying a bunch of 7.62 guns for the role. The 556 DMR concept doesn't fly for whatever reason in the Army. The 6.8 should be a very flat shooting cartridge with high BC, so it does fit much than m80 ball tha most guys are using. |
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Posted: 2/4/2021 3:48:34 PM EDT
[#4]
Yeah the 7.62 DMR is stupid. How many of them are going to run out of ammunition and not have anywhere to get it but pulling down belts?
I’m less concerned about gun weight than ammo weight and cube for machineguns. |
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Posted: 2/4/2021 4:01:45 PM EDT
[#5]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Yeah the 7.62 DMR is stupid. How many of them are going to run out of ammunition and not have anywhere to get it but pulling down belts? I’m less concerned about gun weight than ammo weight and cube for machineguns. Being able to redistribute machine gun ammo across all teams is a big win in my eyes. The weight per round will be between, 556 and 762, where it falls is depending on the winner. Volume wise they will all be near 762 is true. We will have to see if the 4-8 pounds lost in gun is negated by the additional ammo weight cross loaded amongst the platoon. I am of the opinion that it will largely be net loss on volume, total weight is a push, and a gain in range and lethality of the unit. |
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Posted: 2/4/2021 4:08:05 PM EDT
[#6]
Quote HistoryQuoted: What the hell is a soldier touch point? I'm not sure I want to know especially if it's considered an "event". Tony |
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Posted: 2/4/2021 4:11:01 PM EDT
[#7]
Quote HistoryQuoted: There are still some that haven't been converted? |
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Posted: 2/4/2021 4:28:59 PM EDT
[#8]
Why is it so hard to just slap ambi controls and a free floated rail on an M4 and call it an M4A3?
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Posted: 2/4/2021 4:38:26 PM EDT
[#9]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Why is it so hard to just slap ambi controls and a free floated rail on an M4 and call it an M4A3? Because that doesn't address the issue trying to be corrected. |
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Posted: 2/4/2021 4:40:15 PM EDT
[#10]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Brass isn’t going anywhere. Polymer cases sound like a cool and innovative idea but have one main issue: brass cases are a heat sink that draws heat out of the chamber, plastics don’t have the same thermodynamic properties. In a beltfed MG, this is vital to prevent Cookoffs. Without brass, barrel changes will have to be more often. This is an awful idea as barrel changes take the gun out of the fight momentarily. It doesn’t make any sense to trade a small amount of weight savings for more gaps in suppression. You are thinking of caseless ammo. Polymer cases insulate the chamber from the heat. |
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Posted: 2/4/2021 4:40:30 PM EDT
[#11]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Being able to redistribute machine gun ammo across all teams is a big win in my eyes. The weight per round will be between, 556 and 762, where it falls is depending on the winner. Volume wise they will all be near 762 is true. We will have to see if the 4-8 pounds lost in gun is negated by the additional ammo weight cross loaded amongst the platoon. I am of the opinion that it will largely be net loss on volume, total weight is a push, and a gain in range and lethality of the unit. I agree if you’re comparing the 6.8 and the SAW. But you could also get a KAC LMG in 5.56 with plastic cases and be lighter and smaller yet. The thing is I might be ok sharing ammunition between squad and platoon and company machineguns but I’m going to expect that they are different guns because I don’t want to make the same compromises in an assault gun and a tripod mounted gun. |
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Posted: 2/4/2021 4:58:33 PM EDT
[#12]
If the Sig steel base is ferrous enough to be picked up with a magnet, it needs to be adopted so range cleanup can be done by two shitbags with bar magnets, thus saving millions of man hours across services.
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Posted: 2/4/2021 5:00:38 PM EDT
[#13]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I agree if you’re comparing the 6.8 and the SAW. But you could also get a KAC LMG in 5.56 with plastic cases and be lighter and smaller yet. The thing is I might be ok sharing ammunition between squad and platoon and company machineguns but I’m going to expect that they are different guns because I don’t want to make the same compromises in an assault gun and a tripod mounted gun. I wouldnt get used to the idea of an assualt machine gun in any capacity outside SOCOM. They make far too many compromises in longevity to ever considered for line unit issue. The KAC and Surefire guns are cool, but they wont be SAW replacement, if its 556, new SAWs will be bought. |
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Posted: 2/4/2021 5:12:26 PM EDT
[#14]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I wouldnt get used to the idea of an assualt machine gun in any capacity outside SOCOM. They make far too many compromises in longevity to ever considered for line unit issue. The KAC and Surefire guns are cool, but they wont be SAW replacement, if its 556, new SAWs will be bought. I don’t know that there is any reason to believe that a stamped constant recoil gun is less durable than a stamped traditionally buffered gun. I do know that taking 7 pounds off an automatic rifleman should be worth a few thousand dollars at least. But if they keep the SAW for gods sake get rid of the damn magwell. |
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Posted: 2/4/2021 5:23:45 PM EDT
[#15]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I wouldnt get used to the idea of an assualt machine gun in any capacity outside SOCOM. They make far too many compromises in longevity to ever considered for line unit issue. The KAC and Surefire guns are cool, but they wont be SAW replacement, if its 556, new SAWs will be bought. The KAC is about 8 pounds lighter than the SAW. It would be totally worth it for dismounted units, and mounted support units shouldn't get SAWs anyway. |
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Posted: 2/4/2021 5:32:29 PM EDT
[#16]
Quote HistoryQuoted: The KAC is about 8 pounds lighter than the SAW. It would be totally worth it for dismounted units, and mounted support units shouldn't get SAWs anyway. Yup. The tradeoff in rate of fire is worthwhile for having a machinegun that's so controllable. |
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Posted: 2/4/2021 5:38:58 PM EDT
[#17]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Yup. The tradeoff in rate of fire is worthwhile for having a machinegun that's so controllable. In my mind, never having been infantry, the lower ROF means a belt will allow you to suppress the same area for longer. Put another way, the ROF is 30% lower, so you need 30% less ammunition to support the same duration of assault. The KAC has the same ROF as the M240, more or less, but probably isn't anywhere near as durable. Which is fine, I just wouldn't want to put it on a tripod and fire 10,000 rounds in a few hours. |
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Posted: 2/4/2021 5:49:26 PM EDT
[#18]
All I want to know is when I can buy my .277 Fury chambered AR and a few cases of ammo, and how much it will cost (gotta save up ya'know).
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Posted: 2/4/2021 5:52:17 PM EDT
[#19]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Wait, was Sig selected or are they just test guns? It's just a PR piece as they were just test submissions. |
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Posted: 2/4/2021 6:00:58 PM EDT
[#20]
Quote HistoryQuoted: We all know Sig will win. Their rifles are not that different than what is already available, which big army loves and hates anything too "revolutionary". They've never been a fan of bullpups and the textron rifle is way too bulky. While composite casings should be the future, it won't be. Agreed. Sig has got this one in the bag. I didn't think it would be possible to develop a more bloated looking combat rifle than the Beretta ARX-100, but somehow Textron managed to make one that makes the Beretta rifle look skinny in comparison. And WTF was General Dynamics thinking when they entered a bullpup design? Ain't no bullpup ever winning a U.S. military contract for anything. Sig won this long ago by simply introducing an evolutionary design rather than something radically different. I actually really like the Sig LMG variant and the rifle is okay too. I don't really like anything about either of the other two designs. |
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Posted: 2/4/2021 6:25:59 PM EDT
[#21]
Ha, if this administration does anything that increases combat capability, it will be accidental. More likely they’ll repurpose the NSGW funds for powerpoints produced by John Brennan’s outside firm explaining to troops how they are racist and homophobic for even serving their country.
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Posted: 2/4/2021 10:05:53 PM EDT
[#22]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Is Tex's less retarded looking than the last offering they submitted? SIG was the only one that even looked like it was designed by people who'd fired a gun, before. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Quoted: These are just the test guns. No one has been selected yet. Correct. Sig keeps putting this out there like they ready won the contract. This is just their final submission. Textron will also be submitting a final version of they haven't already. Is Tex's less retarded looking than the last offering they submitted? SIG was the only one that even looked like it was designed by people who'd fired a gun, before. |
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Posted: 2/4/2021 10:07:12 PM EDT
[#23]
will 101st or 82nd infantry dudes get these...ever?
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Posted: 2/4/2021 10:29:28 PM EDT
[#24]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Most people aren't going to stand around and let you blast a hole in their armor. I might be mistaken. You aren't wrong on combined arms though. The proliferation of mini-missiles and drones is going to shake things up in a really nasty way. I don't know what the weapon system was, but the Azeri's were using drones with IR sensors, and dropping some kind of guided munition right into trenches and foxholes next to individual soldiers. They were going right down the trench-line and hitting every group of soldiers in it. It would be horrific to be on the receiving end of that weapon system. There is a need to develop some countermeasures to that ASAP. |
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Posted: 2/4/2021 10:38:53 PM EDT
[#25]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Did you guys see the video footage from the recent Armenia - Azerbaijan fighting? I don't know what the weapon system was, but the Azeri's were using drones with IR sensors, and dropping some kind of guided munition right into trenches and foxholes next to individual soldiers. They were going right down the trench-line and hitting every group of soldiers in it. It would be horrific to be on the receiving end of that weapon system. There is a need to develop some countermeasures to that ASAP. You notice that the new IFV will have a 50mm cannon with air burst modes? There’s a reason for that. |
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Posted: 2/5/2021 9:48:10 AM EDT
[#26]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Did you guys see the video footage from the recent Armenia - Azerbaijan fighting? I don't know what the weapon system was, but the Azeri's were using drones with IR sensors, and dropping some kind of guided munition right into trenches and foxholes next to individual soldiers. They were going right down the trench-line and hitting every group of soldiers in it. It would be horrific to be on the receiving end of that weapon system. There is a need to develop some countermeasures to that ASAP. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Most people aren't going to stand around and let you blast a hole in their armor. I might be mistaken. You aren't wrong on combined arms though. The proliferation of mini-missiles and drones is going to shake things up in a really nasty way. I don't know what the weapon system was, but the Azeri's were using drones with IR sensors, and dropping some kind of guided munition right into trenches and foxholes next to individual soldiers. They were going right down the trench-line and hitting every group of soldiers in it. It would be horrific to be on the receiving end of that weapon system. There is a need to develop some countermeasures to that ASAP. I remember guys here just 5 years ago making fun of people for suggesting greatly changed battlefield dynamics were on the horizon. When a country with a GDP comparable to the poorest US states can employ PGM's at will, the shit has hit the proverbial fan. |
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Posted: 2/5/2021 10:00:03 AM EDT
[#27]
If you want to address infantry "overmatch", get more HE down to platoon and squad levels.
Things like Carl G. and iMortar.  Norsk USA Ultra Lightweight 60mm iMortar |
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Posted: 2/5/2021 10:11:43 AM EDT
[#28]
I can see replacing the Beltfeds. But there is nothing out there that's good enough to justify changing out the M4.
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Posted: 2/5/2021 10:11:43 AM EDT
[#29]
Quote HistoryQuoted: They aren't the same, the M240 is still a lot more durable and since most MGs are used mounted on vehicles the 6 pounds isn't that big a deal. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: The 14 pound gun is the AMG which is .308 or 6.5 creedmore That's a ludicrously good improvement over the 240B. They aren't the same, the M240 is still a lot more durable and since most MGs are used mounted on vehicles the 6 pounds isn't that big a deal. The six pounds are why it's mostly mounted, though. They're on the right track, a true LMG that's practical to use dismounted is a gap in our arsenal. The Mag is a fine gun, but like the 1919 it is ridiculously big & heavy for what it's doing, in an infantry role. Heavier than any other modernish LMG as well as its contemporaries. A smaller, lighter gun, in a cartridge that is also smaller & lighter but more efficient ballistically, is an improvement. The desire for ammo commonality is because a dismounted LMG and DMR would be engaging similar ranges, and the AP capacity of a round is highly range-dependent. Not saying that justifies the logic, but that's probably how they got there. |
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Posted: 2/5/2021 10:12:32 AM EDT
[#30]
Quote HistoryQuoted:  We'll still have M4's in FY 2031. Yup, and smartly so |
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Posted: 2/5/2021 10:30:04 AM EDT
[#31]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I fully expect us to blow a ton of money on this, then abandon it due to military funding cuts over the next several years. It's a Sig, Sig will abandon the platform shortly and leave it's adopters scratching their balls. Happens every time. |
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Posted: 2/5/2021 10:34:20 AM EDT
[#32]
Quote HistoryQuoted: https://external-content.duckduckgo.com/iu/?u=https%3A%2F%2Fmedia.giphy.com%2Fmedia%2FCDJo4EgHwbaPS%2Fgiphy.gif&f=1&nofb=1 So is Joglee the "Coronabro two more weeks" of weapon systems? OR (the better more likely option) is the Coronabro two more weeks the joglee of pandemics? Yes, but he is also a 2 more weeks Coronabro. Any disagreement with either topic brings up equal amounts of screeching. |
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Posted: 2/5/2021 3:26:05 PM EDT
[#33]
Quote HistoryQuoted: The six pounds are why it's mostly mounted, though. They're on the right track, a true LMG that's practical to use dismounted is a gap in our arsenal. The Mag is a fine gun, but like the 1919 it is ridiculously big & heavy for what it's doing, in an infantry role. Heavier than any other modernish LMG as well as its contemporaries. A smaller, lighter gun, in a cartridge that is also smaller & lighter but more efficient ballistically, is an improvement. The desire for ammo commonality is because a dismounted LMG and DMR would be engaging similar ranges, and the AP capacity of a round is highly range-dependent. Not saying that justifies the logic, but that's probably how they got there. It's mounted because most machineguns belong to non-maneuver units. The MAG only seems big and heavy when you use it like an assault machinegun. On a tripod with a few thousand rounds it's in its element. If you want an automatic rifle then use the 10 pound KAC in 5.56. |
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Posted: 2/5/2021 4:00:25 PM EDT
[#34]
Here is Textrons final submission on the rifle.
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Posted: 2/5/2021 4:17:29 PM EDT
[#35]
They need to adopt the Textron belt fed LMG with the tilting chamber using cased telescoped ammo. Best designed gun along with a really meaningful advance on the ammo.
They need to pitch the Textron carbine and ask for new carbine submissions from all of the manufacturers using the cased telescoped ammo. They need to re-spec the cased telescoped cartridge to a more reasonable chamber pressure and velocity. Done. 
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