[ARCHIVED THREAD] - Straw Purchase (Page 1 of 2)
Posted: 8/20/2002 3:18:42 PM EDT
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Ok, I was at the local range/gun shop the other day, just to keep current in my skills, and after I was done I spent the prerequisite hour perusing the selection of goods... Well, while I was oogling various safe queens, two different "famlies" came in looking for inexpensive pistols for "defense". In both cases the "wife" was doing the shopping, with the "husband" directing the selections... One guy even admitted to the clerk that he couldn't buy guns on " 'count a bein'a felin". I was a bit suprised by this and asked the clerk after the "family" left if that was common. He said lately its real common, and he agreed it seemed like a straw purchase "in appearance". Man. I'm all for the 2nd ammendment, and as most of you know, a strong believer in the Constitution, But this is scary. Thoughts? |
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Quoted: i've got no problems with felons owning guns if they're too dangerous to be allowed to access their right, then they should either be dead or in prison Agreed. Unless it is *PART OF THE DECLARED SENTENCE*, then upon release from prison or end of whatever the sentence, then all rights should be restored. PERIOD. |
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Erm...if a person was convicted of a felony by a jury of 12 of his peers? I don't think so. I wouldn't want that clown within eyesight of a firearm. They can't vote, they can't do crap. As far as I'm concerned, if a man is convicted of a felony, they've revoked their rights as a Citizen of the United States by comitting that act, and should live their lives accoringly; i.e. like every other illegal immigrant out there, with the exception that they have a valid passport. If they lack the common sense, humanity, or capacity to tell what's right or wrong...to hell with them. Our society does not need them as members of it. Would YOU want a convicted felon (murder? rape? child molestation?) living next to YOU, with firearms in their possession? They've already proven their inability to control themselves in our society. If you say "Yes", you should seriously re-assess your grip on reality... |
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4 Gunshops in Jacksonville were closed down in the space of 1 year, due to "straw purchasing". The ATF would send in a woman and a man, wired for sound. The woman would go to the counter, look at handguns, and then walk away from the counter. She would then say out loud where no one could hear her "I am buying this for my husband. He is a felon and can't buy one himself" No one in the shop would hear her say it, but the tape would record it. So, it would be taken into court with the ATF claiming she said those things out loud in front of the clerk, therefore he KNEW she was a straw purchaser... when in reality she was off on some desolate corner of the store speaking only for the benefit of the mic. If you own a gun store, you shouldn't be selling guns to negroes anyway. The 2nd Amendment shouldn't apply to them, since our forefathers gave us the second amenedment in a time when people still realized they weren't to be trusted with a hatchet,neverless a gun. Still proves true today, with 76% of all firearms homocides being committed by Negroes, who comprise a scant 13% of the population. Boy... Those founders were sure smart fellers. |
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Quoted: If a felon pays their debt to society in full and the case is discharged, all rights should be restored following any probationary period after release. Period. What's the point of paying a debt to society? It's either paid or it isn't. Because you aren'y "paying a debt" you are being PUNISHED. The avg. sentence served for murder is something like 7 years. Does that "pay the debt", or mean the BG has been sufficiently "punished"?? Waht about the 18 yo that breaks into someone elses house, and get 5 days jail and 1 year probation, do you want them living next to you after they go and buy a gun??? I've seen 1 day sentences for child molestation. 1 DAY. Think about that. Just because you have been punished that doesn't mean you are forgiven. |
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Quoted: Quoted: If a felon pays their debt to society in full and the case is discharged, all rights should be restored following any probationary period after release. Period. What's the point of paying a debt to society? It's either paid or it isn't. I agree with your statements. This is a problem with the justice system. There are mandatory sentences for many, more benign crimes - yet idiot judges hand down 1 day sentences like you describe. There should be a level of consistancy and severity for these violent and sexual offenses. Keep them in jail. |
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Quoted: If you own a gun store, you shouldn't be selling guns to negroes anyway. The 2nd Amendment shouldn't apply to them, since our forefathers gave us the second amenedment in a time when people still realized they weren't to be trusted with a hatchet,neverless a gun. Still proves true today, with 76% of all firearms homocides being committed by Negroes, who comprise a scant 13% of the population. Boy... Those founders were sure smart fellers. Is it a full moon or something??? JESUS H CHRIST MCUZI I KNOW YOU ARE JUST SCREWING AROUND BUT YOU ARENT MAKING THINGS ANY EASIER. THIS IS A GOOD TOPIC TO DISCUSS AND HERE YOU ARE POOPING IN THE THREAD. I KNOW YOU ARE ABOVE THIS SO CUT IT OUT!!! |
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Quoted: All laws prohibiting criminals from owning guns are stupid. They're criminals - THEY DON'T OBEY YOUR SILLY LITTLE GUN LAWS. Sheesh fellas - don't we "get" that yet????? [rolleyes] garand(RemedialTeacher)man Heh heh, of course there's the obvious that goes over our heads once in a while. [:D] |
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Quoted: Quoted: If you own a gun store, you shouldn't be selling guns to negroes anyway. The 2nd Amendment shouldn't apply to them, since our forefathers gave us the second amenedment in a time when people still realized they weren't to be trusted with a hatchet,neverless a gun. Still proves true today, with 76% of all firearms homocides being committed by Negroes, who comprise a scant 13% of the population. Boy... Those founders were sure smart fellers. Is it a full moon or something??? JESUS H CHRIST MCUZI I KNOW YOU ARE JUST SCREWING AROUND BUT YOU ARENT MAKING THINGS ANY EASIER. THIS IS A GOOD TOPIC TO DISCUSS AND HERE YOU ARE POOPING IN THE THREAD. I KNOW YOU ARE ABOVE THIS SO CUT IT OUT!!! Two things I've always wondered - 1. What does the middle initial "H." stand for?? 2. Does invoking Jesus name bolster your argument?? |
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Quoted: All laws prohibiting criminals from owning guns are stupid. They're criminals - THEY DON'T OBEY YOUR SILLY LITTLE GUN LAWS. Sheesh fellas - don't we "get" that yet????? [rolleyes] garand(RemedialTeacher)man Ahhh, an interesting point. Wouldn't it be better if laws were in place that were used against criminals, Felon in possesion of a firearm, etc. and actually prosecuted. Instead of passing laws that effect everybody, ie no flash suppressors?? A lot of this is window dressing. The pols pass laws against flash suppressors, slap themselves, HCI, MMM, etc on the back because they have kept "dangerous weapons off the street". Knowing full well the law does nothing about actual crime, and the law won't be enforced, so that there will be no need to actual prosecute, try, and imprison all the law breakers. But when it comes to actually, catching, prosecuting, trying, and imprisoning someone who committed a crime, that costs money, and isn't as likely to get "face time" for the pols, HCI, MMM, and so forth on the national news. |
| Do they still teach social studies in school? Isn't this what our forefathers put down as the law of the land? My brother inlaw is a fellon. Three counts of armed robbery. SOB only did eight years. Put my mom and dad through hell. He is one SOB that would be shot on sight if I saw him with a firearm, becouse I know he can't be trusted! Fellons made thier own bed let the bastards sleep in them. |
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Quoted: If a felon pays their debt to society in full and the case is discharged, all rights should be restored following any probationary period after release. Period. What's the point of paying a debt to society? It's either paid or it isn't. With all due respect, "they've paid their debt" is a mere cliche, not a legal priciple. The purpose of punishment, whether jail or fines etc, is not to make everyone "even" again. In the old days, all felonies were punished by death. As time went on, society decided that you simply forfeit most of your civil rights (kind of like a dead person). not a flame |
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I think if you're gonna ban somebody from owning firearms, it should be ordered in the sentencing part of the trial. On a slightly unrelated note, straw purchases are semi-legal here in PA. A person can buy a firearm, and transfer it without a background check to their spouse, child, or grandchild. Gift thing. |
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Quoted: Two things I've always wondered - 1. What does the middle initial "H." stand for?? 2. Does invoking Jesus name bolster your argument?? I don't know what H stands for, it's a common euphemism. I don't know or care if Jesus' name supports my argument or not, but the racial crap is gonna stop... even if it is just in bad taste humor. Back to the point at hand.... In Ohio, armed robbery adds a mandatory 7 years to the sentence for each count. Tougher sentences for people who commit violent crimes with full term sentences carried out would solve a lot of the problem. |
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Quoted: Do they still teach social studies in school? Isn't this what our forefathers put down as the law of the land? My brother inlaw is a fellon. Three counts of armed robbery. SOB only did eight years. Put my mom and dad through hell. He is one SOB that would be shot on sight if I saw him with a firearm, becouse I know he can't be trusted! Fellons made thier own bed let the bastards sleep in them. My point exactily. If they fucked up enough so that 12 random people would find them guilty and send them to prison, as our founding fathers layed the law out, they revoke their rights as a citizen of this land, including any and all constituitional protections. Hey, I'm sorry. But if some schmuck committed massive credit card fraud and got snagged on a Class E Felony, or popped his next door neighbors because he didn't like the TV show they were watching, it's all the same to me. I've been on both sides of the law (don't ask) and even so, I can't argue against the ruling. If someone commits a felony, THEY HAVE TO KNOW WHAT THEY'RE GETTING INTO. If they don't, they're so stupid you wouldn't want them within 50 meters of a firearm anyway. more $0.02... |
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Quoted: Quoted: If a felon pays their debt to society in full and the case is discharged, all rights should be restored following any probationary period after release. Period. What's the point of paying a debt to society? It's either paid or it isn't. With all due respect, "they've paid their debt" is a mere cliche, not a legal priciple. The purpose of punishment, whether jail or fines etc, is not to make everyone "even" again. In the old days, all felonies were punished by death. As time went on, society decided that you simply forfeit most of your civil rights (kind of like a dead person). not a flame And I agree with you... to a point. Not all felonies should be eligible for such a restriction. Non-violent felonies (white collar crime like forgery) should have no bearing on the RKBA following the discharge of a sentence. While the felony speaks to the person's character, that guy who forges a signature on a check or embezzles money from the petty cash box shouldn't be held to the same level of future restriction as a murderer or rapist. It's just not the same kind of offense. |
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Very dangerous and evil people who commit felonies rarely go to jail forever or are put to death. Breaking into someone's home may still allow you back on the street in 3 or 4 years. Also felons very often commit numerous other felonies before they actually end up with a felony record. Often lower level/first/second felonies are plead down to misdemeanors. There are procedures to have one's civil rights which are forfieted by a felony convicion, including owning firearms, restored. My guess is most felons don't do this because they cannot afford an attorney to do it. My experience has not been that the prisons are full of dopes who got caught with a hi cap mag or other dopey felonies. I'd say the majority of these guys did something that if most of you guys had interrupted him in the process you'd put a bullet in him without a second thought. I disagree that laws prohibiting felons from having firearms (and carrying firearms during a felony) are stupid. If the criminal is a dope and commits the crime with a firearms etc then he gets more time in jail=good thing. Some of the "smarter" criminals go out of their way to avoid upping the ante if they are caught. These guys are not (in my experience) smart professionals, but the are smart enough to not carry a pistol to break into warehouse to steal VCRs because they know that will make for a tougher sentence if they do get popped. I know many many felons, trust me you do not want most of these guys owning firearms. |
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Quoted: Quoted: Two things I've always wondered - 1. What does the middle initial "H." stand for?? Harold. Haven't you ever heard The Lord's Prayer? Our Father, who art in heaven, Harold be thy name... LOL (forgive me Lord for laughing at that)[:D] I was thinking "Hal" but you are right. Harold. Its His Fathers given name, and His middle name. |
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If someone steals "petty cash" it would be "petty theft" a misdemeanor. So if someone does an armed robbery, get's say $200.00. And someone else, sell medical insurance to elderly people, collecting premiums every month from all his clients. But fails to forward any of the premium money to an actual insurance comapny. When his clients start getting sick, they are wiped out by hospital bills, and the others who find out about the scam find they are ineligible for insurance because they are currently uninsured. Your saying the armed robber, as opposed to the insurance cheat, is more of a danger to society? I thinkl they both are. Some of the worst crimes, effect on the victims, have nothing to do with violence. Both examples have a lot to do with judgement, responsibility, and not caring about harming other people. |
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Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Two things I've always wondered - 1. What does the middle initial "H." stand for?? Harold. Haven't you ever heard The Lord's Prayer? Our Father, who art in heaven, Harold be thy name... LOL (forgive me Lord for laughing at that)[:D] I was thinking "Hal" but you are right. Harold. Its His Fathers given name, and His middle name. Oh come on now, I can't be the only guy who hears "Howard be thy name" [i]Hijack![/i] |
| Sorry BenDover. In the 1980's Home State Savings scandle many many lives were devestated by "white collar criminals", some even took thier oun lives becouse of thier loss. Those bastards should have been convicted of murder!All they got was a few years at a goverment(taxpayer) country culb for the better than the rest of you criminals. Do the crime, do the time and STFU. |
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Well since you brought it up, wasn't Jesus a convicted(crucified) felon? Would he be able to buy a gun? I say that men that have robbed the Gov or State with a pen,and not a gun are still convicted felons,but should they be held in the same light of judgment as say, convicted bank robbers,murderers of any degree? Of course not,after you have done your time,and probation time many states will let you have your right to vote and own guns again. If I had a neighbor that had just been released for tax fraud,I sure wouldn't want to trade him for one that was just released for child molestation or robbery. This is kind of a dumb nobrainer,gee I must have been on that roof too long today! Bob [8D] |
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Quoted: I disagree that laws prohibiting felons from having firearms (and carrying firearms during a felony) are stupid. If the criminal is a dope and commits the crime with a firearms etc then he gets more time in jail=good thing. That's the VERY logic of the Million Moms. People who kill with guns are MORE EVIL than people who kill with knives. And it violates the Constitutional provision of equal protection under law. Are the family and friends of a person killed with a knife deserving of LESS justice (i.e. lighter sentences for knife weilding killers) than the friends and family of people killed with guns?? |
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Quoted: [i]Hijack![/i] does anyone have a link to the video clip where people keep walking up to the a guy and saying Hi Jack! He gives them all a hand slap. Later, a dude runs up to him and points a shotgun in his face and scream HIJACK! he "gives the gun five" it points down and blows the croooks foot off |
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Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: If a felon pays their debt to society in full and the case is discharged, all rights should be restored following any probationary period after release. Period. What's the point of paying a debt to society? It's either paid or it isn't. With all due respect, "they've paid their debt" is a mere cliche, not a legal priciple. The purpose of punishment, whether jail or fines etc, is not to make everyone "even" again. In the old days, all felonies were punished by death. As time went on, society decided that you simply forfeit most of your civil rights (kind of like a dead person). not a flame And I agree with you... to a point. Not all felonies should be eligible for such a restriction. Non-violent felonies (white collar crime like forgery) should have no bearing on the RKBA following the discharge of a sentence. While the felony speaks to the person's character, that guy who forges a signature on a check or embezzles money from the petty cash box shouldn't be held to the same level of future restriction as a murderer or rapist. It's just not the same kind of offense. |
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Quoted: That's the VERY logic of the Million Moms. People who kill with guns are MORE EVIL than people who kill with knives. And it violates the Constitutional provision of equal protection under law. Are the family and friends of a person killed with a knife deserving of LESS justice (i.e. lighter sentences for knife weilding killers) than the friends and family of people killed with guns?? Seriously-if someone breaks into your home or tries to jack your car would you rather he has a gun or not? |
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OK, here's a scenario to think about. A husband and wife split up..this is not a happy split up. Wife goes to court and gets a restraining order against her estranged husband, she [i]claims[/i] he has threatened her. Naturally the judge slaps on a restraining order which contains a provision he is not to purchase firearms for, say 1 year. The husband thinks 'this is bullshit', goes out and buys a firearm...its his hobby after all. That guy is a felon..... |
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Well..... I'm not sure I'd want even a non-violent offender like Kenneth Lay (Enron CEO) to be able to possess a firearm, much less a pen. Maybe he didn't commmit a crime (Or maybe he did), but we have the corrupt legislature to thank for not covering that. He defrauds [?] many people, & the best he can "offer" is to plea the 5th. I don't see a wisp of morality in him. Screw him & his "rights". Then again, maybe it's folly to even argue either way. If Ted Kennedy can murder a young woman & Barney Frank can run a brothel out of his senate office, & both still maintain their Senatorial posts, I guess the issue of criminality is already too watered down. And, let's not forget about Mistress Brady's little 'ol straw gun purchase for her son. Isn't falsifying statements on a federal document a felony? Of course, if punishment were just, all serious cons would be exiled to Massachusetts upon release. [:D] To work in Barney's brothel. [spank] Servicing Ted. [sex] Oh......to be king! |
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Quoted: i've got no problems with felons owning guns if they're too dangerous to be allowed to access their right, then they should either be dead or in prison This is the correct answer to the qu estion that was asked. HOWEVER, before you can go back to this system (you DO realize that the law was exactly this up until 1968, right?), you must FIRST get rid of all of the BS laws and the weak sentencing. The reason we started restricting a felon's rights after his prison sentence was because we had grown soft on sentencing, and were seeing an increase in crime because if it. Sure, that wasn't the entire cause of the increase, but it was a contibuting factor, and has continued to get worse. This is similar to many people who critisize the Libertarian party's platform by trying to apply one plank of it to the current (broken) system, then pointing out why it would fail. Of COURSE it would fail. You can't fix one thing and leave everything else broken and expect things to succeed. For example: immigration. People go crazy that Libertarians support open immigration, but don't take into account that they would FIRST do away with ALL welfare, gun control, etc. People who wanted to come here would have to support themselves, or have their families support them. And they'd face a citizenry that was armed with whatever tools they desired to carry for their own defense, so they'd be less apt to start trouble. Anyway, realize that we KNOW you can't just fix one small part of a broken system. It must ALL be fixed (or, rather, restored to it's previous state). -Troy |
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Quoted: i've got no problems with felons owning guns if they're too dangerous to be allowed to access their right, then they should either be dead or in prison That pretty much sums up my sentiments. If a criminal always will be a criminal and cannot be "rehabilitated"; he has no use walking the streets. If he screwed up 40 years ago, he should have the still have the right to defend his family if needed. |
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Quoted: What about the kid who got busted selling meth or some other hard drug before he or she was 18 and has since grown up and become a productive member of society? -T. In my state you can get pretty much anything sponged off your record if you did it while under 21. I know of LEOs who committed stupid felonies when 18 years old.' |
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Regardless of semantics in this thread there are a few facts. The ATF has been cracking down on STRAW PURCHASERS and people who sell to them, as of late. A guy I work with was a victim of a sting. I have been approached by people who wanted to do a straw, and one was wearing a freekin' ankle holster! Whoop!! LEO alert!! I doubt anyone with a tether would be trying to buy a gun, but who knows? |
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Quoted: I have been approached by people who wanted to do a straw, and one was wearing a freekin' ankle holster! Whoop!! LEO alert!! I doubt anyone with a tether would be trying to buy a gun, but who knows? That wasn't a holster.......... it was a transmitter BTW-WWJD? |
[ARCHIVED THREAD] - Straw Purchase (Page 1 of 2)
