[ARCHIVED THREAD] - Straw Purchases (Page 1 of 2)
Posted: 7/20/2006 9:58:33 AM EDT
|
Given the new lawsuit that GA Firearm Dealer is pursuing against New York City, what are the specific laws about married couples purchasing firearms for each other as a presents? It is my understanding based upon faulty news coverage that the Bloomberg is swearing up and down that purchasing a handgun via the husband's driver license for his wife is a straw purchase. My understanding of the law and I'm NOT AN EXPERT. Is that I can purchase a handgun for my direct relatives (wife, father/mother, children) Thanks for the info. |
So I went here: www.atf.gov/firearms/faq/index.htm and searched for "Straw" and came up empty. I'm sure I did something wrong. Can I have a hint? |
I thought it was limited to someone directly related to you. So it's ok for your wife, but not your cousin. |
| I'd have to go with who cares. Since its not illegal to own a gun then decide one day to give it to someone as a gift then no worries. Not sure in all states but I know in mine as long as you aren't an FFL you can sell your gun to anyone. How the hell would I know if someone is a felon. |
|
Buying a firearm to give as a gift is not a straw purchase as per federal law. A straw purchase is using a third party to make the purchase with the intent of hiding the acutal purchaser's identity. Note: the actual purchaser does NOT have to be a prohibited person for it to be a straw purchase. See below:  |
Thanks for the link. The cartoon was helpful. It stated that in my situation that it was legal to purchase a handgun for his wife as a gift. Additionally, gifts are not restricted to direct family members, but can be anyone who is legally entitled to own a handgun/rifle. Additionally, Bloomberg comments that a husband purchasing a handgun for his wife is a strawpurchase is total bull shit. This does not suprise me. |
Here is more info: For Immediate Release: Philadelphia, PA April 26, 2001 Philadelphia Contact: Darrell G. O'Connor Public Information Officer Office:215-597-7266 Fax: 215 597-6116 Pittsburgh Contact: Brandt A. Schenken Resident Agent in Charge Pittsburgh Firearms Trafficking Field Office Office: 412-395-6911 Fax: 412-395-4613 ATF and the Firearms Industry partner to educate the public as to the illegality of "Straw Purchasing" firearms. Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania - Special Agent in Charge Lawrence L. Duchnowski, Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms (ATF), Philadelphia Field Division announces a partnership between the ATF, the National Shooting Sports Foundation and the Pennsylvania Gun Collectors Association. The purpose of this partnership is to educate the public concerning the illegality of "straw purchases". A "straw purchase" is a situation in which a person is using a "straw purchaser"(another person) to acquire one or more firearms from a Federally licensed firearms dealer, to hide the identity of the true purchaser or ultimate possessor of the firearm/s. In Pennsylvania, this is the most common way that prohibited people, such as convicted felons, and drug traffickers, obtain firearms. The press conference will be held on May 4, 2001 at 2:00 PM at the Greengate Mall, Greensburg, PA, at the site formerly known as J.C. Penneys (the PGCA Gun Show). For additional information, please contact ATF Resident Agent in Charge Brandt Schenken |
More on this:
www.atf.gov/pub/fire-explo_pub/geninfo.htm |
If you buy a gun for someone with the intent of hiding their identity (whether they are prohibitied or not), YOU have done a straw purchase. |
|
OK, another question: Let's say that I live in Spanish Fork, UT, and my brother is passing through St. George, UT, about 4 hours away. A shop in St George has a gun that I want. Can my brother buy the gun for me? This is assuming that neither of us is prohibited and he specifically informs the dealer that the gun is for me. I could even provide him my info in case they want to run a background check on me, too. Is that a straw purchase? |
ETA - Further to the point, from a previous post:
|
|
I always thought a straw purchase was buying a gun under your info and giving it to someone else. Apparently i'm incorrect. Two weeks ago my fiance and I went out to pick out her first handgun. We got to the store, she picked it out, and started filling out the paperwork. When the dealer found out I was going to be the one paying for the gun, he said no go. He said that although she would be the one filling out the paperwork, etc., I couldn't pay for it. So he basically just told me to go to an ATM, come back, and give her the cash to pay for it 
|
|
If you look at a 4473 and read "Important Notices--Number 1." you will see it is NOT acceptable/legal. I am looking at it but I don't have time to type it all out. Anyone got a link to the 4473 example on the BATFE website? It lists an example similar to yours and says, "Mr. Jones is NOT the actual buyer of the firearm and must answer "no" to question 11.a. The licenseee may not transfer the firearm to Mr. Jones." The next example is the same except for whose money is used. If it is YOUR money and you honestly intend to give it as a gift and not receive your money back, then it is okay. Buying for someone else, and using their money to do so (at the time or with reimbursement later) is NOT legal--and fits the definition of "illegal straw man purchase." |
Thanks TBK1. Shame that such a transparant purchase by two upright citizens isn't allowed. |
Ah! Be damned if you didn't. I should have noticed that and simply referred to it. Thanks for waking me up.  tbk1---> 
|
My bad too. I went back to page one and watched that video. It explained it. I guess it's a good thing I decided against having my brother buy that rifle for me a few years back. That was before I'd even heard of "straw man" purchases.But get this. I actually called the dealer to make sure they had the rifle in stock, and mentioned possibly having my brother stop buy to purchase it for me. The dealer's response? "Once he buys the rifle, what he chooses to do with it or give it to is none of our business."  The man should have explained to me what a straw purchase was and that I couldn't make such a purchase. |
That's a very, very gray area--and one in which dealers are wise to tread lightly. He was absolutely correct in one way--if no conversation had taken place with you (at least where the dealer knew the caller, and subsequent buyer, were not the same person), and your brother showed up and simply bought it without mentioning the existence of anyone else, and the dealer sold ("transferred") it to him, and he then passed it on to you, the dealer would have had no knowledge, and therefore no culpability, and would have done nothing wrong. OTOH, had YOU called, discussed it, and then said you were going to send your brother to buy it for you, THEN the dealer would be guilty of a crime for selling it to your brother while knowing it was actually for you. It's the SAME end result--but the law is very stringent and specific in how it is applied.  All this to keep felon gangbangers from having their girlfriends buy firearms for them. <sigh> |
What's sad is that all it accomplishes is weeding out a few (very few) people that want to make an easy purchase, and creates a huge deal of problems for people that want to have someone pick up a gun they don't have in their area. The example above is a good one. If I have a gun store nearby that has a "super ultra special" for 800$, and my brother (in the same state) sees the same gun for 600$. Rather than have him purchase the gun for me, either he has to make a gift of it, or I have to go to his home town and buy the gun. It's illegal for him to purchase it, and me to pay him back, when you go buy the "letter of the law". It's also illegal for a dad to buy a gun for his kid who says he wants to buy a deer rifle with his allowance/lawn mowing money. That law is so stupid. |
Yes you are, just ask Sarah Brady. www.gunowners.org/pr0203.htm www.handguncontrolinc.org/oj_sarah2.htm www.freerepublic.com/focus/news/653017/posts |
The ATF form says: Are you the actual purchaser of the firearm? If she put down "yes" and YOU paid for the gun, then he risks loosing his license. That isn't acceptable by ATF standards as I understand them. Whoever fills out the paperwork HAS to pay for the gun because they are the "actual purchaser" of the firearm. You can buy a gun and sell it to a non-prohibited person once you have completed the original transaction. You can buy a gun and give it to a non-prohibited person as a gift. You just have to be the person who is actually paying for the firearm AND filling out the paperwork. |
Not true. Your brother can legally buy the gun. And then he can legally sell the gun to you later that day, month, week, year, whatever. As long as you can legally purchase and posess said rifle, it isn't a problem.
Yes, but it is perfectly legal for him to buy it and then sell it to you for exactly what he paid for it.
No it isn't. Dad can buy the rifle and give it as a gift to his son, who can then give dad a nice thank you card with cash in it, or a new putter, etc...
Unfortunately the law doesn't have the ability to integrate common sense. |
And how is buying on behalf of someone else not consistent with what you wrote? 
|
+1 this is how I understand it too. In the example provided (its hard to read so I typed it), it says: Mr. Smith asks Mr Jones to purchases a firearm for Mr. Smith. Mr. Smith gives money to Mr. Jones to purchase the firearm. Mr. Jones is NOT the actual buyer of the firearm and must answer "no" to question 12a. The incensee may not transfer the firearm to Mr. Jones. However, if Mr Brown goes to purchase a firearm with his own money to give to Mr. Black, then Mr Brown is the actual buyer of the firearm and should answer "yes" to question 12a. I watched the video of one of the Bloomberg stings and it was ambiguous (as least what they showed). The way I remember the video of the so called " straw purchase" the man and woman come into the store, the woman browses away from the gun counter, the man talks to the coutner guy about buying a gun and ends up picking one, and then the man turns to the woman and tells her to buy "this one". The woman completes the 4473 and pays for the weapon. Again, this is from memory about a video of one sting. If the sting had shown the man giving the woman money, then it would clearly, IMHO, meet the definition of a straw purchase. But as it is, it could just be a disinterested wife buying a present for her hubby, or, a friend of the woman getting info and picking a gun for a woman who doesn't want to deal with the gun counter guys (in the same way that some women have their males friends bring their cars in for repair work). |
I've seen a guy at a gunshow spend 10 minutes checking out an AR, and finally decide to buy it. When the dealer handed over the yellow form, the guy said "Oh, my wife will fill that out for me, since I've got a felony conviction" - and the dealer just shrugged and handed the form to her. 
|
A lot of FFL wouldn't even sell you the gun after you came back because they are so careful about straw purchases. |
I was under the impression that whether the money gets transacted before hand or after, it is still a technical straw purchase. Of course its difficult to prove that the brother didn't decide arbitrarily to sell the gun after purchasing it (unless its documented in email or a guns forum  ). Its a shame, but I thought it was a technical violation of question 12a to arrange the so called straw purchase before hand with the promise of reimbursement.But if its not, then good for our side.
|
If you read straight from the 4473 (covered above) you will see it IS an illegal straw purchase in the eyes of the law (with the information provided)--John_Wayne777 is simply wrong. |
Wow.....that is in every sense of the icon....for both the dumbass dealer and the obvious straw sale......
|
But then "gun people" go ballistic over the "evil BATFE" and their JBTs harassing a "poor gun dealer just trying to make a living" once the story is half-told and spread to the masses via the internet. I have an FFL, so I know how easy it can be to make small technical errors--but that is NO "small error" and whoever does something so monumentally stupid deserves what they get. One doesn't even have to have an FFL to figure out that is a "bad thing" using just the smallest amount of common sense. 
|
If he's wrong, how can any of us ever sell a firearm? Once I purchase a firearm with my money, it is mine. If a family member or friend sees that gun later in the day or later that week and offers to buy it off of me, I can legally sell it. I know, the devil is in the details, or in this case, the devil is in the intent. I just think that a lot of this law is balogna in that it effectively does little but create more beaurocracy in firearms sales. |
I don't disagree with you--I'm just citing the law, and the way it is interpreted. In the real world, as I mentioned above, if the brother just went and "bought" the gun, and didn't say a word about his brother, then passed it on to his brother later (and obeyed any pertinent state laws regarding private sales), then there would be NO problem. The problem comes from the first guy calling and talking to the dealer and informing said dealer he is "going to have my brother come by and pick it up." That is NOT legal. Period. It doesn't matter that it's just a matter of convenience and doesn't involve a "prohibited person." ETA: READ the copy of the 4473 posted on page one of this thread, or the typed-out version above on this page. This is thoroughly and clearly explained. "Gifts" are fine--but it MUST be a true gift. One person buying it for another, and then obtaining the funds for the purchase either before or after the actual purchase is NEVER legal--regardless of either party being a "prohibited person" or not. Edit II: To answer this:
That is simple--you are completely free to sell any firearm you own, as long as you obey any state laws regarding private sales, and of course any applicable NFA laws, as federal laws don't (yet) cover private sales. This whole conversation only deals with the purchase of firearms from an FFL--and the surrounding details of that. If you are buying it from an FFL in place of someone else, then it is a "straw man" purchase, unless it is a "gift" as defined in the law. Buying a firearm completely on your own, and then deciding to sell it to someone else later, even if it's only a little later, is not a problem (federally, as mentioned above)--but the subsequent sale must not have been known, or part of the FFL purchase. It's very tricky and technical, but unfortunately the burden of proof if arrested is pretty much on you to prove yourself innocent. This is much like proving you aren't a child molester--tough to do, as proving a negative is all but impossible. You and the other party had better have the exact same story over and over and over--or you will be burned. |